Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
He may not want to see the team he’s going to give up a very valuable asset?
There’s always ways around the cap.
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Cleveland Browns (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter wadegarrett
- Start date
There’s always ways around the cap.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Would a QB who wants to win "now" rather have a rookie, or several veterans who are key players? As I said, if Cousins wants to play in Denver, this would be his preference I would assume.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Again, why would the NFL be against this. As I said, there is no advantage being gained. They are giving something to get something.
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slicedbred21
Footballguy
i think in a vacuum this makes a lot of sense, however this also seems very familiar to what the browns have done every year....trade down and get more picks for next year.
IMO the thinking of "there is a player valuable enough to be drafted No.1 overall" is ridiculous. At some point the Browns just need to use all of the assets they keep acquiring for "next year" and find the darn QB of the future. If they just start hitting on players their overall draft position is irrelevant.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I think they can find away to work the contract out if he really wants to.
i don’t really feel like spending a ton of time on this because it isn’t going to happen, but it sure doesn’t feel right.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Again, because it circumvents the salary cap. I’m not answering the same question again for the third time...
ghostguy123
Footballguy
You are not answering the question though. Would the Broncos be getting creative to get around having COusin's cap hit? Sure. But would why would the NFL be against this particular type of move? There are no shenanigans here.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
A move like this would not change the impact that a salary cap has on teams. They would have to give up something of very significant value to make it happen.
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
Right. Teams "circumvent" the cap all the time, just in less prolific ways. Cuts, restructuring.....................
The NFL would look like a lot of "get off my lawn" geezers if they would be against this.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Well I did but you just don’t like the answer. Cleveland is in essence buying a draft pick. Denver is cheating the salary cap. The NFL has the salary cap in place for a reason - for competitive balance.
I’m not saying it’s illegal or that I would be up in arms if it happened. I just have a feeling the NFL would be a stop to this.
There’s pretty much zero chance it happens anyway. Honestly Cleveland should be overpaying for quality players if anything in order to use their cap space.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Of all the whacky thing you've come up with, this one has the most legs. But only if Sashi were still around. I would be pretty surprised to see Dorsey be willing to stick his neck out there like this. But this is a similar win/win to the Brockweiler thing just on a larger scale. One slight correction, CLE wouldn't eat the guaranteed money, Cousins would likely still have some future salary guaranteed, but CLE could eat all of the up-front money in the form of the signing bonus and Denver's salaries, guaranteed or not, could still be quite cap-friendly.
Figure $50M signing bonus, he could get a 5 year $95M deal for $19M per season with 2018 and 2019 salaries guaranteed. That's $88M guaranteed with 50 of it up front and 68 in year 1. That is a whole lot of cheese. Denver should easily handle $19M a year in cap space, that's a huge bargain for a QB now, and if he's a flop they cut him any time after 2019. It's not like they'd give up on him before that anyway if he struggled early so all they are risking for that is the 1.05 - easy decision if I'm Elway.
Again, I just don't see Dorsey doing it. I think he feels like he's going to grow the roster with solid guys like Nigel Bradham, Malcolm Butler, Morgan Burnett, Joeckel is young, guys that are mid-tier guys that won't break the bank but are necessary to get a foundation put down for the big hitters in the draft.
DallasDMac
Footballguy
Sounds a lot like this which didn't violate any rules either. The punished them pretty heavily for violating the spirit of the rules. Not sure why folks think they would have any issue doing exactly that again.
I think the strategy has been working, they've just had incompetent coaching. That isn't going away until Hue does. Until that happens, no one player, especially a rookie QB is going to make a difference.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
The Cleveland Browns hold a 1-31 record over the past two years. The worst in NFL HISTORY.
Hardly competitive balance when New England gets to low-ball veteran free agents for the shot at a layup Super Bowl appearance or that teams in Florida without state tax hold a huge competitive advantage. The fact Cleveland loses means that our quality free agents flee forcing us into an uber competitive imbalance.
THIS sort of deal would actually fill the gap that is lacking in competitive balance that is lacking in the NFL for teams just like the Browns who hold a huge amount of cap space because we don't have a franchise QB to pay and FAs won't come to Cleveland unless we GROSSLY overpay them.
The fact that Kirk Cousins won't even consider signing with the Browns even though we hold the most cap space is the reason why we have to come up with scenarios like this in the first place.'
Screw the spirit of the rules because the rules as they stand today are not fair to 1-31 Cleveland Browns.
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
That had nothing to do with trading assets for salary cap, that had to do with skirting the cap entirely.
Catbird
Footballguy
Cleveland was once a proud and desirable franchise players were glad to come to. Except for a tax advantage that works against nearly every team as it does against the Browns, every competitive balance issue you whine about, BS, has been self-inflicted. You can't start even, waste the assets which result to you falling to a lower level and complain that you have been treated unfairly - or if you do, not a lot of people are going to agree with you.
But that said, I suspect the league's concern would be far greater with Denver circumventing the salary cap than the Browns getting a draft pick. Most fans aren't going to be happy seeing Denver potentially buying another Superbowl by manipulating the system that has restricted their own team.
But that said, I suspect the league's concern would be far greater with Denver circumventing the salary cap than the Browns getting a draft pick. Most fans aren't going to be happy seeing Denver potentially buying another Superbowl by manipulating the system that has restricted their own team.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
BS on your BS Jack. Top free agents leaving a bad team isn't competitive balance. Stealing a team from a loyal fanbase because one owner's poor management isn't the fault of fans who have had to suffer through this sheeetfest for twenty years. We don't deserve this crap where our top players leave to better situations. We didn't F'ng create this situation and don''t deserve it and the NFL doesn't do anything to truly create so-called competitive balance so I really don't give a rats ### about your whinind soony boi.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
They didn't seem to mind when we did this LAST YEAR.
Plus, they could always like, ask to league first.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Of course the rules are fair to Cleveland. They created the mess they are in. Lets not blame the rules for that. ETA: the main issue would be with Denver using Cleveland to get around the cap. Cap space shouldn’t be for sale.
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Too bad right? Double edged sword because too bad for you because what was suggested is within the rules.
The Dallas and Washington situation from 2012 was due to the CBA not being ratified so the league had an uncapped year.
Those two teams, Dallas and Washington restructured contracts that had ALREADY BEEN SIGNED by players on their teams and swept huge amounts into the uncapped year when the league cautioned teams not to do that or they 'could' face fines.
Their isn't any rule against signing and trading a player and the league never cautioned the Browns after the Brock Osweiler deal. This is within the rules so we actually can use our cap however we wish to.
Jut like the players, you are free to change the laundry you cheer for at any time.
NFL would be even more interesting if this type of thing happened on a regular basis.
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
It can't unless one team has a massive amount of cap space and can't sign players and a franchise QB comes into UFA and doesn't want to sign with the team with the massive cap space.BassNBrew said:
This is a unique situation and opportunity.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I could see it happening a lot, just for much less valuable picks.
All of which i would be perfectly fine with as i think it will create more interest around the league.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Right now if a team wants a player in free agency they simply sign them without giving up draft picks. They directly benefit without having to compensate a middle man.
I am sure many situations have come up where teams have bumped up against the cap but nothing like this has happened. This sort of deal would require three parties, the team with the cap, the player, the team wanting to acquire him. Timing of a situation is one thing then the timing of three parties coming together and the complexity of figuring out compensation to monetary value is another.
If it were common and/or easy it would have happened already. How do you see it happening a lot? Am I missing something?
There are currently 9 teams with approx 50+ million in cap space.
There are 10 teams with less than 20 million, all are playoff caliber.
In theory candidates are plenty of candidates like Brees, Arob, Landry, Bell, etc.
Peak
Footballguy
I just don't see teams looking to make these kinds of deals. Maybe it's an unwritten rule like what is found in MLB. Could it happen? Yes, and to GG's point, there are opportunties to be found. It's just that teams either don't want to do this, or aren't willing to do this type of trade. The CLE and HOU trade last off season was viewed as being taboo within the NFL. Imagine the storylines if it happened for a FQB or FRB? People would go ape####.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
The problem is that the team with the cap space has to not only want to deal but they have to know which team to approach for smaller deals.
In this case, Cousins is clearly the top prize with multiple teams after him so the offer has to be large enough to fend off other suitors.
Basically all of the pertinent information is on the table already. We know what Kirk would be asking, we know who has the cap space and who doesn't and we know who is interested because the numbers are soo high it eliminates many teams. Also we know what pick we want so we know the parameters, we know what we'd want/need out of the deal and who the players are and what raw numbers would work to make it worth while and to sort out brass tacks of the deal.
It just seems like teams restructure without getting third parties involved because it would be a lot of legwork for smaller deals and I'm sure NFL front offices have lots of things to do at this time of year without knowing if a deal was feasible or not.
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Bobcat10
Footballguy
I thought it was more unprecedented than taboo. The debate to me always seemed to revolve around "is a 2nd round pick worth 16 million dollars?". Which, again to me, is a very strange debate considering the amount of money the Browns were sitting on. I'd also be interested to see what the stance is now with the people that bagged on Cleveland considering the pick ended up as #35 and not in the 50s like some thought.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Fans have time on their hands right now, so ideas like this one get concocted. Unlike many outside-the-box theories this one can be a win-for-all. But teams are focused on so many other priorities right now. Self scouting, free agency evals, rookie evals, then putting those pieces together to try and formulate an offseason plan. A plan that will be amended a dozen or three times over the next 10 weeks.
In the end, I think @Hankmoody is right. Maybe Sashi would consider doing this. Dorsey won't though. Right or wrong, his focus is going to be on making this a better team right now. I don't see him giving away any future capital or throwing out dumb contracts (yet), but I think he's going to use what he's given this year then worry about next year when we get there. He's not going to spend any of his finite amount of time & energy trying to concoct some sort of sign & trade involving Cousins to get better future picks. He's going to be using that time to secure his veteran QB for 2018. Then once he does he will move onto something else and put the veteran QB issue behind him.
In the end, I think @Hankmoody is right. Maybe Sashi would consider doing this. Dorsey won't though. Right or wrong, his focus is going to be on making this a better team right now. I don't see him giving away any future capital or throwing out dumb contracts (yet), but I think he's going to use what he's given this year then worry about next year when we get there. He's not going to spend any of his finite amount of time & energy trying to concoct some sort of sign & trade involving Cousins to get better future picks. He's going to be using that time to secure his veteran QB for 2018. Then once he does he will move onto something else and put the veteran QB issue behind him.
MAC_32
Footballguy
It's just people sticking to the tried and true Cleveland doesn't know what it's doing story. I mean, the people asking that are not wrong, but it's also irrelevant given the state of the team at that time. The team essentially improved a draft pick by 60-some spots for nothing. Of course that move is not worth $16 mil - in a vacuum. It didn't hinder any moves last year nor will it do anything to impact moves made this year. Ultimately, that's all that really matters.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Nobody - I'm signing someone that can start until whatever rookie drafted #1 is ready and will be willing to aid in that player's development.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Per NFL trade rules this is legal.
https://healthfully.com/nfl-trading-rules-6637621.html
Trading between Teams
As far as trades amongst teams, when a player is under contract, the team to which they are contracted is an at-will employer, which means that they have the option to trade the player with any other franchise at any time unless the player has enough power to put stipulations in their personal contract.
...Players can be traded freely amongst teams for draft picks, other players or groups of other players. Even free agents tend to sign contracts in order to secure their pay rate, so they are often able to be traded.
https://healthfully.com/nfl-trading-rules-6637621.html
Trading between Teams
As far as trades amongst teams, when a player is under contract, the team to which they are contracted is an at-will employer, which means that they have the option to trade the player with any other franchise at any time unless the player has enough power to put stipulations in their personal contract.
...Players can be traded freely amongst teams for draft picks, other players or groups of other players. Even free agents tend to sign contracts in order to secure their pay rate, so they are often able to be traded.
amnesiac
beer is good
MAC_32
Footballguy
I don't know because it depends so much on how that vet is going to approach the situation. If they go about their work like Hoyer did then I don't think they fit on this team. If they are more like Delhomme then I think they will. Chase Daniel is the name I keep coming back to because I expect him to have the Delhomme mindset, but I'd rather someone better if there is one.
amnesiac
beer is good
i would assume anyone coming in would realize what the situation is.
thanks for coming up with a name.
most people say “the team should do this” but there has to be someone who actually meets that criteria.
i’d be willing to bring McCown back again, but i’m guessing most would not.
thanks for coming up with a name.
most people say “the team should do this” but there has to be someone who actually meets that criteria.
i’d be willing to bring McCown back again, but i’m guessing most would not.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
So the team can suck it up and fix it. Oakland did. They didn't even have the $100M initial cap space. They ate their crap sandwich, they overpaid some guys, they drafted a franchise QB, and now are in as good a position as anyone else to keep building it.Bracie Smathers said:
Peak
Footballguy
For me, if CLE signs a bridge QB (or one that would start most, if not all of next season), I would look towards the following in no particular order:
McCarron, Bradford, McCown, Taylor (but would require a trade)
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I don't think it is as complex of a process as you are making it out to be.
If the Browns pulled a deal like that for pick 5 and Denver gets Cousins, it might open some eyes. When I say "a lot" I mean maybe a couple times a year, and for middle round picks when team want to get a so-so free agent without using the few million of cap space it would cost to sign him.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
"is a 2nd round pick worth 16 million dollars"
The answer is "it depends on the situation". For the Browns last year, yes, a 2nd round picks was absolutely worth 16 million dollars even if it didn't end up a very high 2nd.
slicedbred21
Footballguy
a agree with this...they would all be "serviceable" options and not cost too much while the rook gets up to speed.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I wonder what Marcus Peters will cost in trade.
So when his contract says "club option" for 2019, what exactly does that even mean? How much is the club option?
So when his contract says "club option" for 2019, what exactly does that even mean? How much is the club option?
JetMaxx
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Whats wrong with inquiring about a good young corner? Especially when its probably our 2nd biggest need
We have picks for days and cap space for weeks
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JetMaxx
Footballguy
Cleveland needs talent and to build a culture. Why would a loser organization like KC dump a young supposedly top corner??
