I think Portis is one of the best running backs I have ever seen play. He has a SICK combination of skills. He is fast, elusive, has great vision and balance. I was having a discussion with a very knowlegable football fan and was surprised to hear him say that Portis is just 'a fast back behind a great line'. Settle the argument.
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Clinton Portis (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Juicecore
- Start date
VICK-IS-GOD
Footballguy
The argument will be settled this coming year in Washington.
Athletic Supporter
Footballguy
Should've been a poll 
Mungo Burrows
Footballguy
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radballs.
Footballguy
I think the guy is not getting his proper due. He's a flat out stud and he'll do fantastic wherever he goes. He is not only incredible in the open field, but his smallish stature (a big negative according to some on these boards) allows him to almost hide behind the line and he only needs a small hole to get through.
I agree mostly with your friend, but with a much higher opinion of his rushing ability - kids got skee-alls, but he needs a great line to turn those skills into production on the ground.That said, Portis is as likely to get 70 catches, 700 yards, and 3-4 receiving TDs as any back in the league - he is like AGreen, LT, Priest and Faulk in his ability to boost his rushing numbers with his receiving numbers, so he will always be a threat to be a top-5 back, regardless of his line.He is heading to Wash, where I believe 12-1400 yards rushing is a minimum, and he'll get his 6-800 receiving yards if he plays for 16 games. He's a top-5 back.
And this argument started when asked who had the higher value in the NFL, Bailey or Portis. Salary aside, I think without question, Champ Bailey is the #1 CB in the league and most definitely a top 5 NFL player in terms of value. Portis on the other hand, is not even tops at his position. A position that is easily filled in the NFL. I think Portis barely cracks the top 20 players in terms of NFL value. If he goes to Washington, Portis owners better be prepared for a signifcant dropoff of his previous years' numbers (talking fantasy now). Portis is a great RB, but by no means can be compared to the likes of Barry Sanders, who Juice is currently trying to compare him to as I now type.
Gringoloco
Footballguy
As for NFL value, Bailey's is much greater than Portis' IMO.But Portis is still a stud.
I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion, since he has caught 33 and 38 passes in his first 2 years, with like 325-375 yards each year, and 2 TDs, total. He started in 13 games each year, so even if you factor in 3 more receptions per game, that leaves him at like 45 catches, 400 yards-that is a far cry from 70, and 600-800.
Pimpin Ain't Easy
Footballguy
Less productive, maybe but a "Flop" give me a break.Up to now, there is no dispute, the kid is the real deal. Only 2 other backs in history started with 1500+ in there first 2 years. Barring injury, or attitude problem he's a lock for 10K. Thats the low end. Not a bad back if you ask me.
Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
This argument isn't going to be "settled" any time soon.My opinion is that he is a very good back in a very good situation and the result is a great performance.At some things, he's as good as any RB out there right now. In other things, he's not. If I were starting an NFL franchise, I'd probably rather have Jam Lewis, Ahman Green, Deuce, Ricky or LT. All of these guys are much bigger and stronger than Portis.We will see what happens in Washington if that's the way it works out - should be very telling.
switz
Footballguy
No vision? Flop?The reason he was a second round pick had 100% to do with size and that's it... if he had no vision AND was smallish he wuold have been a 4th or 5th round pick
Seems to me all the people jealous b/c they don't got Portis on their squad are jumping out to knock him. Fae it, you screwed up in your rookie drafts.Burning Sensation
Footballguy
No doubt Portis is one of the best runners today when he gets into open field. I personally dont think he will get the oppurtunity to do that as much in Washington. Getting bottled up at the line of scrimmage is going to be a more common occurence in Washington, and his YPC will suffer. He will break his share of long TD runs, he is one of the best backs in the league at doing so, but it wont be enough to get to 5 YPC. I also doubt Portis can carry the ball more than 300 times a year without getting dinged up, and if Gibbs can use Betts/Cartwright on some 3rd down and short yardage situatuions, he will. My predictions for Portis in Was. next year:14 games played, 276 carries, 1302 yards, 9 TD's 35 catches, 381 yards, 1 TD
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
I dont think anyone is saying that, but is it a stretch to think he may not be as successful in Washington as he was in Denver?It's true. Portis sucks, it's all his O-line. Just like Emmitt Smith sucked too and it was all his O-line that made him so great.
As a Skins fan, I totally disagree that Bailey is a top 5 player in the league. Imo, hes not even the best CB, as I like McCallister a lot better, whom I also see a lot of since I'm a Ravens fan as well. In no particular order, I would also rather have LT2, Holmes, Manning, Moss, Harrison, T.O., Ray Lewis, and a host of others before Bailey.
Yenrub
Footballguy
I doubt you will be able to settle this argument until Portis leaves.For every person who thinks that Portis has mad skills there will be another person who will say Mike Anderson put up very nice numbers in that same system and no one was calling the best back in the league.Anderson in 2000 1,500 yards at 5.1 per carry
coolbeans59
Footballguy
HUH?!?"Doesn't have the greatest vision"?!?holy crap!Either you are that stupid, or you're just fishing ... either way
Didn't think anything would take the brunt off my thought that Poris could be a great receiver, and then along comes Slider."No vision" - that is a bigger joke than me asserting Portis can go 70/700. I still think he CAN go for those numbers, but I now am not so sure that Gibbs will use him that way.The thing about Portis has always been his AMAZING vision - in both college and the pros - that's how he blows up 70 yard runs. Upright runner is funny too - just because he pops upright to shake and bake and make his spin moves does not mean he is an upright runner - he lowers his shoulders through the LOS. Upright runners = Eddie George or Rashan Salaam, not Clinton Portis.I guess you have to run hunched over when there are no defenders in front of you to lose the uprights tag.I'm still laughing at no vision.HUH?!?"Doesn't have the greatest vision"?!?holy crap!Either you are that stupid, or you're just fishing ... either way
coolbeans59
Footballguy
[sarcasm] it also didn't help that he had about 100,000 career carries and was 87 years old last year.[/sarcasm]
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tommyGunZ
Footballguy
so when Q Griffin goes for 1500+ and 12+ TDs next year you'll be on his nutz proclaiming him a "great back"?put down the cool aid Switz. Davis, O. Gary, M. Anderson, & Portis all put up similar numbers in that offense.Guess you still consider Kurt Warner an all time great, eh?
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
people laughed when others predicted Portis for the same numbers. I am sure people would have laughed at the guys who predicted similar numbers for Gary and Anderson as well. Not saying that Griffin will put up those numbers, but it is certainly a possibility.
Slider
Footballguy
Sorry switz but I saw him play at Miami too. I also grabbed him in the 2nd rd of my dynasty draft that year. I also traded him last year. I'll be here this time next year when he's no longer the top 3 back you envision. I don't have anything against Portis but go ahead and just negate where he plays and tell us all how he's a stud and you always knew it. Just make sure you remember it next year.No vision? Flop?The reason he was a second round pick had 100% to do with size and that's it... if he had no vision AND was smallish he wuold have been a 4th or 5th round pick
switz
Footballguy
First, Griffin won't go for 1500/12Second, Davis put up elite numbers, but Gary and Anderson did NOT put up the same type of numbers as Portis, and did not show the same skills, which is why Shanny wanted Portis in the first placeThird, I never thought Warner an all time great...
switz
Footballguy
You're changing your tune already?First, I never said top-3, you said sub-950 yardsSecond, you go from saying he has no vision to now saying he's in a bad situation...classicSorry switz but I saw him play at Miami too. I also grabbed him in the 2nd rd of my dynasty draft that year. I also traded him last year. I'll be here this time next year when he's no longer the top 3 back you envision. I don't have anything against Portis but go ahead and just negate where he plays and tell us all how he's a stud and you always knew it. Just make sure you remember it next year.No vision? Flop?The reason he was a second round pick had 100% to do with size and that's it... if he had no vision AND was smallish he wuold have been a 4th or 5th round pick
Slider
Footballguy
WTF are you talkin about? All I implied was he was in an ideal situation and is now not. I think you'll see the 2nd rd Rb who runs upright get hurt in a new system not as friendly. It seemed to be your point I didn't like him because I didn't draft him. I did and traded him. You missed that part or just wanna change up? ...Classic... :rotflmao:
Genghis Khan
Footballguy
Portis is a great back. He has incredible change of direction. So far, the only one I've seen that can cut back as well is John Kerry.
Motown Maniac
Footballguy
We need to keep in mind that Portis won't be playing against the Seive defense division twice a year next season(6 games). He won't play KC, SD, and OAK who allowed 1152 Points Against collectively. He will be facing Dallas, PHI, and NYG defenses twice next season. They gave up 934 total points. Quite a difference in opposing defenses. Also different environment, different personell, and a different system to fit into. It could be a down year for Portis? I know my projections will be lower for him this season. In fact I doubt we will see any back from this division a top 5 back in 04. It's too early for projections, so this is just my early Portis speculation.Mo
LOL calling the Giants and Philly tough against the run.Portis had HUGE games versus the Chiefs, true, but he could easily have the same huge games against the Giants or the Eagles.Now, I will agree that Portis' best FF value was staying put, but he's still in my top-5 RBs. I'll call this akin to Partcells trading the world for Curtis Martin, who was just fine, thank you, in his first year w/the Jets: 369 att. 1287 yards 8 TDs, 43 catches, 363 yards, 1 TD.I'll give Portis a 16 game schedule's worth (since I don't project injuries) 305 carries, 1525 yards rushing, 40 catches, 400 yards, 10 total TDs. This drops his YPC from 5.5 to 5.0, and gives him 2-3 catches a game. Note, I dropped his TD totals, which would drop him to around #5 on my RB list.
Portis had a few great games. But, what happened in Indi? Why did he disappear when the team needed him most, against a pathetic run D? YOur mark in the NFL is made in the playoffs, not the regular season. When his team needed him for one game in 2 years, he didn't have the speed, cut backs, or all the other assets people cite in naming him a 'great' back. I do believe Portis is an average, to slightly above average, NFL back. Ironically switz cites Micheal Bennets long runs as the only reason he's a pro bowler, but doesn't acknowlege that w/o those many long runs, Clinton Portis is just another NFL back. IN reality, w/o the long runs, all NFL backs are average. I'm not down on Portis. I just believe if you can get the 2nd to 3rd best corner in the game, AND a top 50 draft pick for a guy who I believe is 'great' because of the system, you have to take it. Q has every move Portis does, is quicker, but maybe not the same top end. I think my 6-1, 240 lbs is good for 1200 and 10 TD's on the Broncos. I've got little Griffin can do it too.As for those saying Portis is the quickest/best back in the NFL. Look nor further than LT in SD. I believe him to be the premier back playing today. The comparisons to BArry Sanders should be LT, not Portis.
switz
Footballguy
LOL! Break down the difference in 100 yard games where Potis needed a long one, versus whereBennett needed a long one... ridiculous...Here let me help:
Bennett's 100 yard games/Percentage of yards from 1 run
12/09/01 113 / 27%
12/30/01 104 / 22%
10/27/02 106 / 12%
11/03/02 114 / 75%
11/10/02 167 / 47%
11/17/02 130 / 48%
12/08/02 120 / 29%
12/07/03 103 / 17%
Out of 37 games, he's only had 8 100-yard perfromances, and IN EVERY SINGLE ONE, he would not have broken 100 yards without 1 long carry
Bennett has only had 3 games with over 120 yards, and in two of them, one run accounted for nearly 50% of hs yardage.
Portis' 100 yard games/Percentage of yards from 1 run
9/22/02 103 / 23%
10/6/02 102 / 16%
10/27/02 111 / 9%
11/17/02 136 / 25%
12/01/02 159 / 27%
12/08/02 103 / 10%
12/15/02 130 / 39%
12/29/02 228 / 26%
9/7/03 120 / 19%
9/14/03 129 / 45%
10/5/03 141 / 46%
10/19/03 117 / 21%
11/3/03 111 / 14%
11/16/03 106 / 28%
11/23/03 165 / 36%
11/30/03 170 / 16%
12/07/03 218 / 27%
12/14/03 139 / 9%
Out of 29 games, he's had EIGHTEEN 100-yard performances!! Additionally in 8 he broke 100 yards without his longest run.
Portis has had 12 games with 120 or more yards rushing, in only two of those did 1 run count for nearly 50% of his yardage.
Bottom line is you take away Bennett's long runs and he's far BELOW-AVERAGE. Take away Portis' long runs and he's still a STUD!
You might want to do research next time before making such a hyperbole.
Edited because yellow is too hard to read
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switz
Footballguy
I am by far the biggest LT supporter on this board. IT was me saying LT would be the best back in the draft, when everyone else was hyping some other guy(s) and downing LT for his level of competition, or for holding out.But Portis is both quicker and faster than LT. I think LT is the better RB, but not the quicker or faster. And NO ONE should be compared to Barry Sanders
Slider
Footballguy
Okay wait, I now have a hammer and I'll try and beat it through. My belief of him coming out of college was that he was a decent runner but too upright and would get hurt. 2nd round skills IMO (the upright style and vision). It is also my belief that WCO backs are more productive than their skills warrant. I drafted him because he went to a WCO. I traded him because I thought he ran upright and would get hurt and his success was the O. I got good enough value for him when his value was highest. He is now leaving the WCO and did get hurt this year. His #'s will dip and he will continue to get banged up. There. Why he'll do worse, why I drafted him, why I traded him, and why I think he'll do worse and still get hurt. My opinion which I've been prettty dead on with so far. You have him as the 5th best back in the league. I don't. We will see. No clue where I changed my tune but I guess when you have nothing else to go on you attack another angle. You're original assertion was people didn't like him because they didn't own him.
Cocky Crow
Footballguy
Injury prone and not real big. Stepped in sheet landing in Denver, strong running team with retiring RB at the time. I say he would be average to good on a average running team. Half the RB's in the league would be become stars at Denver regardless of skills.
jurb26
Footballguy
:rotflmao: At the fact that you say you are not down on Portis. You have been bashing him for a while now. On to to comments though. For one there is now way you gain back to back 1500 yd. seasons and score over 30 TDs in 2 years by having "a few big games."
This being done in his only 2 years in the league mind you.Why is it that you are only looking at Portis' performace vs. Indy rather than the entire teams? That was the worst Playoff performance I have ever seen by a team as a hole in that game by Den. The whole team looked like they were lost. So how was that game all Portis' fault? Yes I agree, that the real measure of players is how they perform in the plyaofss and down the streatch. That however is for real football purposes. We however are playing Fantasy Football. By the way I seem to remember a playoff game vs. GB a while ago where one of the best RBs ever to play the game got held to Negative yardage (sorry Barry). Are you saying that since this happend that he is now not worthy of any of his other accomplishments? 
Switz handled the Bennett comparison so I'll leave that one alone. The Q one though is agian a bad one. You say that Portis who has proved through two awsome seasons that he belongs among the top tier RBs has had just a few good games. Well how many good games has Q had? Well let me count them for you, 1. So what in your expert opinion makes you think that he has everything Portis does, and more? Now I like Griffin, and will be hoping he does well in Den. He does have skills and I look forward to seeing what he can do if given the opp. in that sys. But that fact is, he did it for only one game. A game in which he was not the focal point of the D like Portis was every time he took the field. So this comparison is skewed.
switz
Footballguy
Your explanation now is much clearer, though it wasn't clear from your first post, and you still question his skills, more than his system. Seriously so you really think the WCO makes a 900 yard difference in stats? That he would go from being an 1800 yard back to sub-950???????Second, I never claimed he was the 5th best back, you mixed me up with someone else.Third, you may have been right on his eventually getting injured, but I disagree that it's because of his "Style", and you're downright wrong on his vision, he has excellent vision.My attack on you chaging your tune is because in your intitial post you commented about his abilities, not his system. Since then you've clarified that you believed the system covered his lack of abilities, and while I disagree, I can see you've been consistent in your thought, even if not clearly expressed.Bottom line is that Portis has excelled beyond that system. Maybe he becomes merely a 1300-1500 yard back, or maybe better since Gibbs RBs ran well, despite RBBC. We'll see.
ShadowMaster
Footballguy
Well I live in Miami and I love Portis; however, I think the Denver system has helped him get the numbers we have seen to date. I'm not so sure how good he will do in Washington - but there are MANY worse situations - that is for sure.One of the best ever is a bit of a stretch at this point; but a SOLID player for sure.
joffer
Footballguy
I asked this in another thread but I don't anyone answered it. Those of you that attribute a large portion of Portis' success to the Denver offensive line, do you think it's the personnel or the system? A little of both? One more than the other? I've been looking for a breakdown of the Denver offensive line by year but haven't found anything yet. I would think they've had some turnover at the positions. Just curious.
