Conservative - Different meanings (1 Viewer)

[BladeRunner]

Do you honestly think that is his solution, or are you just trying to be impossible to have a discussion with when you disagree?

I'm not the one complaining about the trades. And I'm not disagreeing with him that people get hurt.

I'm asking him what his solution is, hence the question marks at the end of every sentence. 

Were you unable to identify the questions in my posts?

 

[Frostillicus]

Should we just get rid of the trades all together? Is that your solution? Really?

I was referring to these questions. Did you have trouble identifying the questions in your own post?

 

[Frostillicus]

.

 

[BladeRunner]

I was referring to these questions. Did you have trouble identifying the questions in your own post?

Oh, so you want to distract?  My bad, I took the bait.

Next time, just stay on topic please.  Dont make this about me cause its not.

 

[Stealthycat]

And it makes me wonder, could you say the politically conservative person seeking to change a policy is taking an anti conservative position? That’s the kind of thing I think about when I’m not thinking about Football or BBQ. Just so you know.

sure, change and progressions absolutely can be conservative - why not ? that's something I've noticed, that there is a labeling that conservative = stagnant and that's far, far from the truth

banning abortion, securing our borders, things like that are PROGRESS, not regress !!

 

[James Daulton]

sure, change and progressions absolutely can be conservative - why not ? that's something I've noticed, that there is a labeling that conservative = stagnant and that's far, far from the truth

banning abortion, securing our borders, things like that are PROGRESS, not regress !!

Dude I hate to break it to you but banning abortion is 100% regression.  Virtually no first world countries ban it, only those dominated by religion.  

I agree with you on secured borders. 

 

[Stealthycat]

Dude I hate to break it to you but banning abortion is 100% regression.  Virtually no first world countries ban it, only those dominated by religion.  

I agree with you on secured borders. 

in your mind it might be

in my mind, its very much the definition of progress = forward movement

and that's what I'm saying - the image that Democrats are moving forward party and Republicans are moving back is wrong - Conservative thinking absolutely can be progressive thinking - although the people against the values might call it otherwise. Its word play - its a way to use words to make someone appear stagnant, unable to change etc

I challenge that - I say its absolutely progress and progression ... just not what some people want 

 

[BladeRunner]

Dude I hate to break it to you but banning abortion is 100% regression.  Virtually no first world countries ban it, only those dominated by religion.  

I agree with you on secured borders. 

Killing babies is "progress"?  Wut?

Two different people can have two different definitions of what progress is. Just because you're labeled a progressive doesn't actually mean you promote progress.

In fact, being a progressive sometimes means that you want regression.

 

[squistion]

in your mind it might be

in my mind, its very much the definition of progress = forward movement

and that's what I'm saying - the image that Democrats are moving forward party and Republicans are moving back is wrong - Conservative thinking absolutely can be progressive thinking - although the people against the values might call it otherwise. Its word play - its a way to use words to make someone appear stagnant, unable to change etc

I challenge that - I say its absolutely progress and progression ... just not what some people want 

Conservative thinking is progressive thinking? That sounds like something out of Orwell's 1984.

 

[BladeRunner]

Conservative thinking is progressive thinking? That sounds like something out of Orwell's 1984.

Progressive thinking also brought us Stalin, Lenin, castro, che, Pol Pot and the Kim's of North Korea.

We can play this game all day long if you want because there's more.

 

[Stealthycat]

Conservative thinking is progressive thinking? That sounds like something out of Orwell's 1984.

what is progress ?  moving forward, right ?

Democrats fought hard against equal rights in the 30's-50's .... progress was the Republican's fighting hard for equality right ?

tell me I'm wrong 

 

[James Daulton]

what is progress ?  moving forward, right ?

Democrats fought hard against equal rights in the 30's-50's .... progress was the Republican's fighting hard for equality right ?

tell me I'm wrong 

Do you know why the South became a stronghold for Republicans in the 60's and 70's?

 

[squistion]

what is progress ?  moving forward, right ?

Democrats fought hard against equal rights in the 30's-50's .... progress was the Republican's fighting hard for equality right ?

tell me I'm wrong 

That was Southern Democrats for the most part who later bolted the party and became Republicans. 

Very few people (if anyone) would label FDR and his New Deal legislation as being conservative. 

 

[Stealthycat]

Do you know why the South became a stronghold for Republicans in the 60's and 70's?

tell me why you think

That was Southern Democrats for the most part who later bolted the party and became Republicans. 

Very few people (if anyone) would label FDR and his New Deal legislation as being conservative. 

that's a great theory - but fact is the Democratic party WAS the party of hate, racism and Jim Crow and the Republican party was the progressive party to move us all away from that

 

[FairWarning]

Killing babies is "progress"?  Wut?

Two different people can have two different definitions of what progress is. Just because you're labeled a progressive doesn't actually mean you promote progress.

In fact, being a progressive sometimes means that you want regression.

Taking away women's choices isn’t really progress IMO.  I’m not for abortion, but it’s also not my choice. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Love it when threads go to the slap fighting about the histories of the parties.   Why do you guys care so much about which party was more racist 70 years ago? 

 

[Nugget]

Conservatives should just reorganize as Whigs and be done with Trump.

 

[Jayrod]

Abortion is closer to barbarianism than anything which is definitely a regression.

 

[squistion]

tell me why you think

that's a great theory - but fact is the Democratic party WAS the party of hate, racism and Jim Crow and the Republican party was the progressive party to move us all away from that

And most black people and minorities in 2022 don't give a crap about that because it has no relevance to the position of the Democratic Party since about 1964 and where it stands today. 

 

[BladeRunner]

Taking away women's choices isn’t really progress IMO.  I’m not for abortion, but it’s also not my choice.

Two different people can have two totally separate definitions of what they think progress is. You and I disagree and I'm okay with that.

 

[BladeRunner]

Love it when threads go to the slap fighting about the histories of the parties.   Why do you guys care so much about which party was more racist 70 years ago? 

Because one party, the Democrat Party, is trying to tell us that they're not racist anymore when their entire history is full of racism.

The biggest con job in the history of America is when the Democrats got the people they were enslaving to vote for them.

 

[squistion]

Because one party, the Democrat Party, is trying to tell us that they're not racist anymore when their entire history is full of racism.

The biggest con job in the history of America is when the Democrats got the people they were enslaving to vote for them.

The name is The Democratic Party not The Democrat (sic) Party as you have been told numerous times (ironic you can't get that right in thread about political labeling and semantics).

And The Democratic Party was able to evolve from its racist past and history, which is one of the best examples of progressive (not conservative) thinking. 

 

[Frostillicus]

Love it when threads go to the slap fighting about the histories of the parties.   Why do you guys care so much about which party was more racist 70 years ago? 

Because there's no question which party is more racist now. 

 

[James Daulton]

tell me why you think

From https://www.history.com/news/how-the-party-of-lincoln-won-over-the-once-democratic-south

The night that Democratic President Lyndon B. Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, his special assistant Bill Moyers was surprised to find the president looking melancholy in his bedroom. Moyers later wrote that when he asked what was wrong, Johnson replied, “I think we just delivered the South to the Republican party for a long time to come.”

It may seem a crude remark to make after such a momentous occasion, but it was also an accurate prediction.

To understand some of the reasons the South went from a largely Democratic region to a primarily Republican area today, just follow the decades of debate over racial issues in the United States.

On April 11, 1968 President Lyndon Johnson signs the Civil Rights bill while seated at a table surrounded by members of Congress, Washington DC. (Credit: Warren Leffler/Underwood Archives/Getty Images)

The Republican party was originally founded in the mid-1800s to oppose immigration and the spread of slavery, says David Goldfield, whose new book on American politics, The Gifted Generation: When Government Was Good, comes out in November.

“The Republican party was strictly a sectional party, meaning that it just did not exist in the South,” he says. “The South couldn’t care less about immigration.” But it did care about preserving slavery.

After the Civil War, the Democratic party’s opposition to Republican Reconstruction legislation solidified its hold on the South.

“The Democratic party came to be more than a political party in the South—it came to be a defender of a way of life,” Goldfield says. “And that way of life was the restoration as much as possible of white supremacy … The Confederate statues you see all around were primarily erected by Democrats.”

The Dixie Democrats seceding from the Democratic Party. The rump convention, called after the Democrats had attached President Truman’s civil rights program to the party platform, placed Governor Strom Thurmond of South Carolina and Governor Fielding L. Wright of Mississippi in nomination. (Credit: Bettmann/Getty Images)

Up until the post-World War II period, the party’s hold on the region was so entrenched that Southern politicians usually couldn’t get elected unless they were Democrats. But when President Harry S. Truman, a Democratic Southerner, introduced a pro-civil rights platform at the party’s 1948 convention, a faction walked out.

These defectors, known as the “Dixiecrats,” held a separate convention in Birmingham, Alabama. There, they nominated South Carolina Governor Strom Thurmond, a staunch opposer of civil rights, to run for president on their “States’ Rights” ticket. Although Thurmond lost the election to Truman, he still won over a million popular votes.

It “was the first time since before the Civil War that the South was not solidly Democratic,” Goldfield says. “And that began the erosion of the southern influence in the Democratic party.”

After that, the majority of the South still continued to vote Democratic because it thought of the Republican party as the party of Abraham Lincoln and Reconstruction. The big break didn’t come until President Johnson, another Southern Democrat, signed the Civil Rights Act in 1964 and the Voting Rights Act in 1965.

Govenor Strom Thurmond of South Carolina, was nominated as States’ Right candidate at the rump convention held in Birmingham on by southern recalcitrants. The Southerners took this drastic action after the Democratic convention added President Truman’s civil rights program of its party platform. (Credit: Bettmann/Getty Images)

Though some Democrats had switched to the Republican party prior to this, “the defections became a flood” after Johnson signed these acts, Goldfield says. “And so the political parties began to reconstitute themselves.”

The change wasn’t total or immediate. During the late 1960s and early ‘70s, white Southerners were still transitioning away from the Democratic party (newly enfranchised black Southerners voted and continue to vote Democratic). And even as Republican Richard Nixon employed a “Southern strategy” that appealed to the racism of Southern white voters, former Alabama Governor George Wallace (who’d wanted “segregation now, segregation tomorrow, and segregation forever”) ran as a Democrat in the 1972 presidential primaries.

By the time Ronald Reagan became president in 1980, the Republican party’s hold on white Southerners was firm. Today, the Republican party remains the party of the South. It’s an ironic outcome considering that a century ago, white Southerners would’ve never considered voting for the party of Lincoln.

So it is true, pre-civil rights amendment, democrats were the party of oppression and conservatives were the party of Lincoln.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Because one party, the Democrat Party, is trying to tell us that they're not racist anymore when their entire history is full of racism.

The biggest con job in the history of America is when the Democrats got the people they were enslaving to vote for them.

Why can't those two things be different?   you seem to be saying they are racist still because they were in the past with this post.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Because there's no question which party is more racist now. 

I'm pretty sure if you ask 2 people, each of the opposing parties, they would still point their finger in the other direction if asked which party is racist today.  

 

[BladeRunner]

Why can't those two things be different?   you seem to be saying they are racist still because they were in the past with this post.  

That's exactly what I'm saying. The racism is just not as explicit as it used to be.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

That's exactly what I'm saying. The racism is just not as explicit as it used to be.  

Like I posted above- ask you or SC, and 100% the Dems are racist.  ask a left leaning poster, and you will get the reverse answer. 

I still think it's weird how much it's brought up what the parties were like 70+ years ago.  

 

[Stealthycat]

And most black people and minorities in 2022 don't give a crap about that because it has no relevance to the position of the Democratic Party since about 1964 and where it stands today. 

if that's true then should give a lot crap less about what happened 150-200 years ago right ?

c'mon - you cannot defend that the Democratic party was the party of racism and when you look at the cities with decades of Democrat leadership and also decades of poverty and crime ..... one could easily argue the Democratic party hasn't changed anything but strategy 

look at LBJ's quotes - even Biden has some horribly racist quotes throughout his life ..... so where it stands today? I see the Democrat party far far differently than you do I think 

 

[Stealthycat]

From https://www.history.com/news/how-the-party-of-lincoln-won-over-the-once-democratic-south

So it is true, pre-civil rights amendment, democrats were the party of oppression and conservatives were the party of Lincoln.

that's an opinion piece ....... and using LBJ as a reference ? ughhhhh    THE #1 racist president maybe ever

 

[Stealthycat]

Like I posted above- ask you or SC, and 100% the Dems are racist.  ask a left leaning poster, and you will get the reverse answer. 

I still think it's weird how much it's brought up what the parties were like 70+ years ago.  

I dunno, systemic racism is brought up all the time when its convenient, remembering what happened decades before any of us were born and being mad about it seems very popular even to the point of removing statues nobody really ever thought about 

I stick to my guns - Conservative IS progressive ......... its progress to move away from abortion for birth control, its progress to be energy independent, its progress to have secure borders, its progress to have less Federal Govt control and on and on

THAT is progress

 

[KarmaPolice]

I dunno, systemic racism is brought up all the time when its convenient, remembering what happened decades before any of us were born and being mad about it seems very popular even to the point of removing statues nobody really ever thought about 

I stick to my guns - Conservative IS progressive ......... its progress to move away from abortion for birth control, its progress to be energy independent, its progress to have secure borders, its progress to have less Federal Govt control and on and on

THAT is progress

the bolded is just laughable, but we've been over that dozens of times.  

0 surprise you think your "side" is the progressive on, the less racist one, the right one, the better one, on and on.  It's what happens when you get hyper partisan - you can't see the similarities between the parties and see how they act alike in many ways. 

 

[Stealthycat]

the bolded is just laughable, but we've been over that dozens of times.  

0 surprise you think your "side" is the progressive on, the less racist one, the right one, the better one, on and on.  It's what happens when you get hyper partisan - you can't see the similarities between the parties and see how they act alike in many ways. 

its laughable? did you call squistion out for saying "because it has no relevance to the position of the Democratic Party since about 1964 and where it stands today. "

you should have if you're going to say my statement is laughable .... either lets hold people accountable for the past or lets not - which is it ?

everyone here likely see's themselves as being on the progressive side, the right one, the better one and on and on ..... do you know anyone professing to be on the wrong sides ?  oh I see the similarities, they both spend with no accountability and further themselves at the costs of American's and this country but, the core platform differences remain don't they ?

 

[dawgtrails]

The name is The Democratic Party not The Democrat (sic) Party as you have been told numerous times (ironic you can't get that right in thread about political labeling and semantics).

You shold drop this argument. It is quite silly. 

 

[squistion]

that's an opinion piece ....... and using LBJ as a reference ? ughhhhh    THE #1 racist president maybe ever

Was that the same LBJ who is viewed as the one being the most responsible for getting The Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed? That LBJ?

 

[Stealthycat]

Was that the same LBJ who is viewed as the one being the most responsible for getting The Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed? That LBJ?

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/lyndon-johnson-civil-rights-racism-msna305591

hard to read some of the things LBJ said isn't it ? proud Democrat he was, and not an apologist either

Why did L.B.J. sign the Civil Rights Act of 1964? Lyndon B. Johnson signed the 1964 Civil Rights Act for political reasons like, gaining the approval of the public, showing people that he has changed, and to please the people of America.

google and many, many articles agree with the above - you disagree? you think LBJ was a civil rights hero ?

 

[rockaction]

How many times are you four going to derail a thread with this stupidest of stupid arguments? 

 

[squistion]

You think LBJ was a civil rights hero?

  The Civil Rights Act of 1964 could not have been passed without his efforts.

 

[rockaction]

How many times are you four going to derail a thread?

 

[Stealthycat]

  The Civil Rights Act of 1964 could not have been passed without his efforts.

Lyndon Johnson opposed every civil rights proposal considered in his first 20 years as lawmaker

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/apr/14/barack-obama/lyndon-johnson-opposed-every-civil-rights-proposal/

LBJ spent his life fighting civil rights ... yes, he did sign the 1964 act but only with immense pressures  - LBJ was a racist Democrat to the core

How many times are you four going to derail a thread?

its not a derail - its amazing that someone on the left like squistion see's LBJ as something he absolutely wasn't - which is my point

some people see Conservatives as not progressive - we absolutely ARE progressive its just the progress isn't what others want so they label it differently

to me, Democrat core values and agenda's are very much REGRESSIVE ......... we don't move ahead with divisive policies, with open borders, with racist and discrimantory practices etc etc ......  that's moving BACKWARDS

 

[squistion]

Lyndon Johnson opposed every civil rights proposal considered in his first 20 years as lawmaker

So what. It was the end of his career where he was a Civil Rights champion that we judge him on. Some people are able to change their views on issues like race as they get older (see Senator Robert Byrd). 

 

[Stealthycat]

So what. It was the end of his career where he was a Civil Rights champion that we judge him on. Some people are able to change their views on issues like race as they get older (see Senator Robert Byrd). 

LOL

"so what" ???  please tell me you are not serious?  you REALLY never held anything Trump did or didn't do in the years before his presidency, instead only seeing the economic progress that lifted median Black household incomes to their highest levels on record and pushed Black unemployment rates and poverty rates down to their lowest levels ?

LBJ was the most racist President in our history - and history will remember that too 

 

[rockaction]

Thread ruined

 

[squistion]

 LBJ was the most racist President in our history - and history will remember that too 

Historians don't remember that now about his presidency. He is regarded among presidents as a Civil Rights champion for getting the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed and I doubt that viewpoint will change (it hasn't in 50 some years). 

 

[rockaction]

LBJ was the most racist President in our history - and history will remember that too 

This is demonstrably untrue when one measures policy advocation, deed, and personality. Wilson was so racist and anti-immigrant he called the hyphenated American (Italian-American, Polish-American) a dagger through everybody's national heart. That's not to mention what his eugenicist movement friends thought about blacks and the infirm. Johnson's abandonment of the Reconstruction was something that puts him up there as probably the most racist president in our history. Not to mention the slaveholding presidents. 

Can we back to arguing about what "conservative" means and get back to the thrust of the thread? You guys have had this argument about ten times in the past year on this board. And you're the same people. What, do you guys like hollering at clouds? 

 

[greenmountaingoat]

Conservative has so many different applications. 

Conservative- low risk. I took a more conservative approach getting home from dropping off my wife at work yesterday morning. The roads were really bad and I didn't have snow tires so I went a longer way home to avoid hills that I was afraid of getting stuck on.

This one is my favorite juxtaposition:  I'd like to conserve our natural environment.. (Through lots regulations). = Conservative environmental policy.

Political conservatism IMO should be rooted in a sense of  "a more cautious approach." Balanced budgets. Well thought out plans that put us on a path to a stable and sustainable future. I don't think either party does this one. Wish they did. 

I turn down the heat to conserve energy usage at night. 

 

[BladeRunner]

I'm back, everyone. 

I was out yelling at a cloud hovering suspiciously over my lawn.  That'll get you a yellin' every single time.

 

[greenmountaingoat]

I'm back, everyone. 

I was out yelling at a cloud hovering suspiciously over my lawn.  That'll get you a yellin' every single time.

I think it only works if you shake your fist at the cloud.

 

[BladeRunner]

I think it only works if you shake your fist at the cloud.

That would explain why that damn cloud is back over my lawn again. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

its laughable? did you call squistion out for saying "because it has no relevance to the position of the Democratic Party since about 1964 and where it stands today. "

you should have if you're going to say my statement is laughable .... either lets hold people accountable for the past or lets not - which is it ?

everyone here likely see's themselves as being on the progressive side, the right one, the better one and on and on ..... do you know anyone professing to be on the wrong sides ?  oh I see the similarities, they both spend with no accountability and further themselves at the costs of American's and this country but, the core platform differences remain don't they ?

my ignore list has grown, and I have 0 interest in your pissing match with squis.  I saw yours, not his, and I replied.   and yes, the "before we were born" stuff is laughable.   

The key to the last paragraph is not getting sucked into the "sides" junk so much to begin with.