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Consistency - hypocrisy (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant

Joe Bryant

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We talked in the other thread about diary from President Biden's daughter and "believing women". 

I think we sadly tend to believe and defend the things that benefit our side. This is human nature. Most all of us do it. I'm surely guilty.

But I'd hope we can try to do better.

The one today I saw on this was after President Biden fell on his bike, lots of people rushed to say it was a normal thing. Likely it was. Chris Cillizza was quick to :shrug: with the "been there" . https://twitter.com/ChrisCillizza/status/1538168066663751680?s=20&t=4xZRcS2XWY2N5NxSxK4MbA

But this was the same guy that was concerned enough to put together a full article when President Trump tripped and tell us how much it mattered. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/15/politics/donald-trump-ramp-west-point-speech/index.html

It's kind of gross. We can all do better.

 
And there will be people today who :shrug:  at the Trump tripping and will be up in arms over Biden falling. 

We all can be better.

 
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The other thing that can be pointed out is that people can choose to do one over the other for non-tribal reasons.  

Yeah, I was participating in the laughing at and mocking Trump.  Not because of some left/right it's only ok when its my team crap, but because Trump was a bully ##### who presented himself as an alpha and mocked other people.  I will always root for those type of people to get theirs. 

 
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This really really bothers me.  It's the inconsistency of peoples' rationalizations.  Aspire to a higher call - a moral certainty that transcends your own personal interests.  I respect that.  What I don't respect is hypocrisy.  That to me feels like selfishness, and something that doesn't jive with any good moral character.  That has always made sense to me.

 
Even though, on a personal level, I try to maintain a level of intellectual consistency (when presented with a political situation, I often ask myself the hypothetical of how I would view it if the roles were reversed), I actually think consistency is overrated. Or rather, I'm uncomfortable with how we've raised hypocrisy to be the most mortal of sins, for a few reasons:

First, as you say, we're all going to view things differently depending on our POV, and we should cut each other some slack. If a Rams fan and a Bengals fan watch the Super Bowl together, they're likely to view a close call differently. No one says, "You thought the Stafford play was a fumble, but you think Burrow's knee was down. Man, Bengals fans are such hypocrites!" We just assume that's how it will be.

Second, it's become a way for the press and partisans alike to offer a content-free, supposedly "non-ideological" critique of others positions. "You voted for the Gulf War but against the Iraq War. Why the switch?" "You were gung-ho for Clinton's impeachment but opposed Trump's? What a hypocrite!" But what if the person who "consistently" voted in favor of both wars was wrong both times? What if voting against Clinton's impeachment and for Trump's was right? Focusing on hypocrisy is a sort of moral dodge. My go-to example is when people attack Al Gore for talking about climate change and then flying around on his private jet. OK, maybe that is bad. But if the Koch brothers fly around on private jets while also producing lots of atmospheric CO2 and also pouring money into our political system to ensure nothing is ever done about it, should we award them points for "consistency"?

Finally, the problem in the preceding paragraph is compounded by the sheer volume of false equivalencies and whataboutism that pervades our entire political system. You can spend all day striving to check every "consistency" box and it will never be enough, because there will always be bad-faith actors on the other side who are looking to play "gotcha" and will never grant you a moment's grace.

So not only do I not care about either Trump's or Biden's pratfalls, I also don't care if you want to view them through different lenses. Knock yourself out. Our political system is facing lots of unprecedented crises right now, but hypocrisy is not one of them. 'Twas ever thus.

 
ekbeats said:
This really really bothers me.  It's the inconsistency of peoples' rationalizations.  Aspire to a higher call - a moral certainty that transcends your own personal interests.  I respect that.  What I don't respect is hypocrisy.  That to me feels like selfishness, and something that doesn't jive with any good moral character.  That has always made sense to me.
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Preach!

Hypocrisy is actually a pretty easy thing to put a check on. If we find ourselves defending or rationalizing somebody on our "team" or holding someone from the other team's feet to the fire, quickly substitute the relevant parties with those from the other side. 

 
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Captain Cranks said:
Preach!

Hypocrisy is actually a pretty easy thing to put a check on. If we find ourselves defending or rationalizing somebody on our "team" or holding someone from the other team's feet to the fire, quickly substitute the relevant parties with those from the other side. 
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Nice, CC.  You're a good man. 🤙

 
The General said:
People being filmed 24/7 are going to trip or do weird things. It’s funny. 
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Seriously.  This #### happens when you get old.  A few weeks ago I was mowing the grass on my tractor and instead of hitting the break I hit the gas and lurched into a beautiful flower bed.  It's not so beautiful anymore. 😒  As much as I disagree with Biden, he's my President and I want him to be well.  He popped right back up like nothing happened.  Cornpop wouldn't have done that.

 
ekbeats said:
This really really bothers me.  It's the inconsistency of peoples' rationalizations.  Aspire to a higher call - a moral certainty that transcends your own personal interests.  I respect that.  What I don't respect is hypocrisy.  That to me feels like selfishness, and something that doesn't jive with any good moral character.  That has always made sense to me.
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What I enjoy is that "whataboutism" means "stop pointing out my hypocrisy".

 
ekbeats said:
Seriously.  This #### happens when you get old.  A few weeks ago I was mowing the grass on my tractor and instead of hitting the break I hit the gas and lurched into a beautiful flower bed.  It's not so beautiful anymore. 😒  As much as I disagree with Biden, he's my President and I want him to be well.  He popped right back up like nothing happened.  Cornpop wouldn't have done that.
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Uhm, no.  The Old Cornpop would've knocked the #### out of that bike.  :lol:

 
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quick-hands said:
What I enjoy is that "whataboutism" means "stop pointing out my hypocrisy".
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Not sure I understand this, but maybe my prior post needs clarification.  All I meant by it is that I hope people can see beyond tribalism, Red/Blue, and judge each issue based on their personal beliefs.  That's all.  Probably didn't express it very very, and it may have came across a bit presumptuous.

 
Guys - it’s about managing elderly people.  Over the years I have restricted my father, unfortunately my mom got Alzheimer’s at an early age.  First it was ladders, no bike riding, then selling house to move into independent living facility, then no night or inclement weather driving, only driving with glasses.  Now it’s moving all his doctors local, using walker vs cane etc etc.  it’s a process that you manage but apparently people around the President can’t manage..  

 
BladeRunner said:
Uhm, no.  The Old Cornpop would've knocked the #### out of that bike.  :lol:
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Can we please track down old Corrnpop?  Seriously.  How has that not happened?  Is he dead?  Is he in prison?  Is he on the MMA circuit?  If the media does nothing else, can they please bring this dude to light and get a 60 Minutes interview with him?

 
stlrams said:
Guys - it’s about managing elderly people.  Over the years I have restricted my father, unfortunately my mom got Alzheimer’s at an early age.  First it was ladders, no bike riding, then selling house to move into independent living facility, then no night or inclement weather driving, only driving with glasses.  Now it’s moving all his doctors local, using walker vs cane etc etc.  it’s a process that you manage but apparently people around the President can’t manage..  
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Good for you for being on top of this.

Apparently the Democrats don't even draw the line at The Leader of the Free World.  Maybe you could consult for them and show them how it's done?  I'm afraid their next nominee is going to be a Funerary Urn.

 
Joe Bryant said:
We talked in the other thread about diary from President Biden's daughter and "believing women". 

I think we sadly tend to believe and defend the things that benefit our side. This is human nature. Most all of us do it. I'm surely guilty.

But I'd hope we can try to do better.

The one today I saw on this was after President Biden fell on his bike, lots of people rushed to say it was a normal thing. Likely it was. Chris Cillizza was quick to :shrug: with the "been there" . https://twitter.com/ChrisCillizza/status/1538168066663751680?s=20&t=4xZRcS2XWY2N5NxSxK4MbA

But this was the same guy that was concerned enough to put together a full article when President Trump tripped and tell us how much it mattered. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/15/politics/donald-trump-ramp-west-point-speech/index.html

It's kind of gross. We can all do better.
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What was so gross and hypocritical about this particular pairing that warranted its own topic? 

What’s the proper response to such an egregious act of hypocrisy such as this? Should Cillizza be fired?  Should Trump sue him into insolvency?  Should there be a boycott of CNN because they continue to employ hypocrites like Cillizza?  

What actions, if any, could Cillizza take that would make it possible for you to forgive him for such a horrible inconsistency?  

What can Cillizza learn from conservatives about being consistent and avoiding hypocrisy?

 
Coach Beard said:
Should there be a boycott of CNN because they continue to employ hypocrites like Cillizza? 
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YES!!!!!!

As I said, I don't care if he was hypocritical in this case or any other, but that dude is the poster child for "lol nothing matters" content-free punditry. Every one in this room is dumber for having listened to him. I award him no points, and may God have mercy on his soul.

 
ekbeats said:
Can we please track down old Corrnpop?  Seriously.  How has that not happened?  Is he dead?  Is he in prison?  Is he on the MMA circuit?  If the media does nothing else, can they please bring this dude to light and get a 60 Minutes interview with him?
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Biden hit him with a chain I think.   Nobody survives  that.   That's just before the cockroaches rubbed his leg.

 
ignatiusjreilly said:
My go-to example is when people attack Al Gore for talking about climate change and then flying around on his private jet.
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How do I weigh somebody's opinion that clearly doesn't believe what they are saying? 

People that want me to make sacrifices that they won't make themselves? 

Al Gore taking one flight in a private jet is worse than me driving my car for 4 years. I would rather he just stay home and ####. It would be better for the environment. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
How do I weigh somebody's opinion that clearly doesn't believe what they are saying? 

People that want me to make sacrifices that they won't make themselves? 

Al Gore taking one flight in a private jet is worse than me driving my car for 4 years. I would rather he just stay home and ####. It would be better for the environment. 
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That's fine. My point wasn't to defend Gore. He deserves to be criticized for that.

My point was to attack the idea that his hypocrisy was somehow worse than the Koch brothers' "consistency" in refusing to even pay lip service to the issue while making things worse across the board.

 
ignatiusjreilly said:
Keep up. Someone did track him down. He died in 2016. Also, as best as anyone can tell, Biden's story was true.
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OMG.  First off - THANK YOU!  This is pure gold.  Talk about burying the lead - Corn Pop was black!  How the hell did I not know that?

Before we go on, let's have a moment of silence for CP.  He died in 2016, with his loving family by his side.  His real name was William L. Morris.  He ran with a gang called "the Romans", and these guys didn't play.  In the summers, they hung out at "Prices Run" - one of the few public pools in Wilmington, Del., open to non-whites during the 1960s.  Here's a recap of the unsavory incident that occured when Biden was a 19 year old lifeguard at the all-black pool...

The story goes like this... Apparently CornPop broke the rules by doing multiple bounces on the diving board.  Joe Biden - certified LifeGuard - was having none of it.  When CP emerged from the water after his fantastic dive, Biden apparently kicked him out, and in doing so made fun of the man's pomade-slathered hair. He also called him "Esther Williams" - which I'm sure not only angered Corn Pop but likely confused the hell out of him.  Word from the black lifeguards was that Corn Pop, who took his coiffure pretty seriously, would be waiting outside with a straight razor, ready to fight. Calling the cops was a no-no, Biden was warned, unless he planned to never return to the pool. Here is Biden's recounting of the incident:

Biden said a friend cut off part of a chain at the pool and told Biden to tell Corn Pop, “You may cut me man, but I’m going to wrap this chain around your head.”

“I said, ‘You’re kidding me,'” recalled Biden. His friend told him, “If you don’t, don’t come back.  And he was right,” Biden recounted. “I walked out with the chain. I walked up to my car. In those days, remember the straight razors, you’d bang them on the curb, get ‘em rusty, bang ’em on a rain barrel, get ’em rusty. I looked at him, but I was smart then. I said, ‘First of all…when I tell you to get off the board, you get off the board, and I’ll kick you out again.. but I shouldn’t have called you Esther Williams, I apologize. But I don’t know if that apology is going to work.'”

“You apologize to me?” Corn Pop asked. Biden said he told the gang member, “I apologize not for throwing you out, but for what I said. He said ok and closed his straight razor and my heart started to beat again.”
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This is the magic of Joe Biden.  He defused the situation by confusing the hell out of his enemy.  Poor old Corn Pop didn't know what hit him.  How could he kick Biden's ### after he issued such a sincere, public apology?  And furthermore, who the hell is Esther Williams, and why does this crazy white dude have a bicycle chain in his hand?  So CP, in complete bafflement, folded up his razor and went along his merry way.  Rumor has it that he never double-bounced on that diving board ever again.

 
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Joe Bryant said:
Thank you, GB. It was worth a shot. 
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Keep up the good fight, gb. 

This country needs marriage counseling where we learn how to listen, show empathy, and consider how we can improve individually to make things work. We don't always need to agree on things. That's not what a good marriage is all about. Just be respectful of one another and understand that different views doesn't mean wrong views.

 
I am allowed to laugh at both incidents, yes?  Because I am and shall continue to do so…if someone doesn’t take this Biden clip and attach Turn Down For What music like that famous boat video I’ll be disappointed

To the actual topic of trying to stay consistent and avoid “yeah, but!”s, I’ve long been on the anti-political party train and think they end up causing unnecessary division 

 
That one guy said:
I am allowed to laugh at both incidents, yes?  Because I am and shall continue to do so…if someone doesn’t take this Biden clip and attach Turn Down For What music like that famous boat video I’ll be disappointed

To the actual topic of trying to stay consistent and avoid “yeah, but!”s, I’ve long been on the anti-political party train and think they end up causing unnecessary division 
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Sure. That would be consistent, It's the folks who are: "OMG at the Biden fall but :shrug:  when Trump fell" and vice versa that I'd like to see be better. And as usual, I'm guilty of this too. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
Sure. That would be consistent, It's the folks who are: "OMG at the Biden fall but :shrug:  when Trump fell" and vice versa that I'd like to see be better. And as usual, I'm guilty of this too. 
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People tripping or whatever is obviously trivial.

I did find it funnier when Trump walked up Air Force One with TP on his shoe, or walked down a ramp like he was traversing a bridge over lava, drank water oddly with two hands because he fancied himself some tough guy and ridiculed others so often about being feeble.  

 
I’m pretty sure both guys have been mocked for stumbling while walking up/down stairs, and accused of failing health. Actually I didn’t know, but more Biden than Trump videos resulted when I googled “Trump falling”. 

Then again, only Biden was stupid enough to use those god-forsaken toe-clip cages, so maybe he deserves special scrutiny for bad decision making?

But rather than worrying about who is being hypocritical (answer: we all are), I’d consider these types of concerns as reflective of the quality and quantity of political media being consumed.

 
Joe Bryant said:
We talked in the other thread about diary from President Biden's daughter and "believing women". 

I think we sadly tend to believe and defend the things that benefit our side. This is human nature. Most all of us do it. I'm surely guilty.

But I'd hope we can try to do better.

The one today I saw on this was after President Biden fell on his bike, lots of people rushed to say it was a normal thing. Likely it was. Chris Cillizza was quick to :shrug: with the "been there" . https://twitter.com/ChrisCillizza/status/1538168066663751680?s=20&t=4xZRcS2XWY2N5NxSxK4MbA

But this was the same guy that was concerned enough to put together a full article when President Trump tripped and tell us how much it mattered. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/15/politics/donald-trump-ramp-west-point-speech/index.html

It's kind of gross. We can all do better.
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I agree that hypocrisy is a big problem with both sides but I’d argue that having a side to begin with is a bigger issue and precursor to the hypocrisy you mentioned.  

 
Joe Bryant said:
But this was the same guy that was concerned enough to put together a full article when President Trump tripped and tell us how much it mattered. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/15/politics/donald-trump-ramp-west-point-speech/index.html
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I'm having a difficult time seeing the massive hypocrisy here.  The whole point of the article is that it wouldn't have been a big deal if Trump himself hadn't magnified it by lying about the weather in his defense and making it a bigger deal than it was (and also attempting to use similar understandable gaffes against his opponents).  

 
cockroach said:
I'm having a difficult time seeing the massive hypocrisy here.  The whole point of the article is that it wouldn't have been a big deal if Trump himself hadn't magnified it by lying about the weather in his defense and making it a bigger deal than it was (and also attempting to use similar understandable gaffes against his opponents).  
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Trump didn't lie about the weather. Trump said the ramp was slippery. The person that wrote the story assumed that only rain can make a ramp slippery. 

Ramp+dress shoes=slippery

I never actually read the story prior to your  summary of it. After reading it, I find your summary inaccurate and I find the hypocrisy to be even bigger since they tried to make a big deal about trump not even falling. He just happened to be careful walking down a ramp, lol. 

 
When Biden fell on his bike, was anyone standing nearby with a flag that had a picture of Biden superimposed on Rambo's body?

Something like this 

Are liberals constantly prattling on about how macho and tough Biden is? 

Does Biden brag about what a he-man he is, before using both hands to lift 6 oz of water?

No.

No.

No.

 
parasaurolophus said:
Trump didn't lie about the weather. Trump said the ramp was slippery. The person that wrote the story assumed that only rain can make a ramp slippery. 

Ramp+dress shoes=slippery

I never actually read the story prior to your  summary of it. After reading it, I find your summary inaccurate and I find the hypocrisy to be even bigger since they tried to make a big deal about trump not even falling. He just happened to be careful walking down a ramp, lol. 
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You're completely missing the point.   No one tried to make it a deal but Trump, that's the point of the article, lol.  

For more context see: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/22/politics/donald-trump-tulsa-rally-west-point-ramp/index.html

It was a non story until he made it a story, whether he slipped, fell or did the dosey-doe. 

It's like the man, person, big mac, camera thing. 

 
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