Danish McDonalds Workers Earn $20 An Hour - Big Mac Costs... (4 Viewers)

[Koya]

Fact and reason on what - the fact that I agree a simple jump to $15 would be crippling?

You don't even seem to care to know where I actually stand on this issue. Seriously, its sad.

Sadder that you can not separate the economic wisdom of a minimum wage hike and any semblance of compassion for the tens of millions that are struggling just to make ends meet.

Two questions:

1) Have you even posted your stance on this issue or do you simply want to pile on others?

2) Specifically, other than whining on message boards, what have you done to help these people, either collectively or individually as Dr. J has suggested you do?

1. My issue as it pertains to this thread did not pertain to the policy decision of raising or not raising the minimum wage. It was about the apparent callousness of so many who don't seem to care for the plight of someone who is trying to get by / raise a family on ten bucks an hour. Now, that does not even go into the legitimate debate in regard to the health of society at large when an increasing population is barely getting by, essentially mired in a cycle of min wage employment.

2. Please point to my whining. Seriously, I've kinda had it with all these barbs and arrows and no, well... no backing. So, demonstrate (and if indeed I am culpable I'll take full responsibility, certainly admitted being wrong on these boards before. Can't say the same for some others) or ####. Ill say the same for all the others who have lumped me in with some view of their "ideological enemy" - since winning i-arguements and showing how patriotic they are while standing against so many of the tenets of our nation's founding appears far more important than, well caring for people.

To your point, in my job, I do my best to make sure our employees have a decent wage, even in situations where min wage would work. I continue to have discussions here, in my business community and with local and federal electeds about finding the right balance, so we can afford a better life to so many while not harming the business interests nor competitiveness of our companies. So, you say "whining" while for me, this is an ongoing discourse.

Not to mention, as a big part of that discourse is an ongoing debate / discussion with my sister who is far left of me (worked for SEIU in leadership) and my father as a 50 year union guy. But while I disagree with them on many of these issues, I recognize that we are talking about ####### PEOPLE - not economic statistics. And unlike so many here, I'd like to find a way whereby more people enjoy the life that I have been fortunate enough to, lets be honest, be born into (and, since that will be a chance for others to distort, born into a middle class family, nice white neighborhood, great public schools, parents then had success and moved to upper middle class or whatever through high school... but certainly not caught in the cycle of near poverty that so many here seem utterly unaware of, or utterly coldhearted toward.

So funny how you and others seem to just assume I'm calling for unlimited raises for the world, when much of my life I am working to find the right balance - in both my business efforts and as general policy.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Fact and reason on what - the fact that I agree a simple jump to $15 would be crippling?

You don't even seem to care to know where I actually stand on this issue. Seriously, its sad.

Sadder that you can not separate the economic wisdom of a minimum wage hike and any semblance of compassion for the tens of millions that are struggling just to make ends meet.

Two questions:

1) Have you even posted your stance on this issue or do you simply want to pile on others?

2) Specifically, other than whining on message boards, what have you done to help these people, either collectively or individually as Dr. J has suggested you do?

1. My issue as it pertains to this thread did not pertain to the policy decision of raising or not raising the minimum wage. It was about the apparent callousness of so many who don't seem to care for the plight of someone who is trying to get by / raise a family on ten bucks an hour. Now, that does not even go into the legitimate debate in regard to the health of society at large when an increasing population is barely getting by, essentially mired in a cycle of min wage employment.

2. Please point to my whining. Seriously, I've kinda had it with all these barbs and arrows and no, well... no backing. So, demonstrate (and if indeed I am culpable I'll take full responsibility, certainly admitted being wrong on these boards before. Can't say the same for some others) or ####. Ill say the same for all the others who have lumped me in with some view of their "ideological enemy" - since winning i-arguements and showing how patriotic they are while standing against so many of the tenets of our nation's founding appears far more important than, well caring for people.

To your point, in my job, I do my best to make sure our employees have a decent wage, even in situations where min wage would work. I continue to have discussions here, in my business community and with local and federal electeds about finding the right balance, so we can afford a better life to so many while not harming the business interests nor competitiveness of our companies. So, you say "whining" while for me, this is an ongoing discourse.

Not to mention, as a big part of that discourse is an ongoing debate / discussion with my sister who is far left of me (worked for SEIU in leadership) and my father as a 50 year union guy. But while I disagree with them on many of these issues, I recognize that we are talking about ####### PEOPLE - not economic statistics. And unlike so many here, I'd like to find a way whereby more people enjoy the life that I have been fortunate enough to, lets be honest, be born into (and, since that will be a chance for others to distort, born into a middle class family, nice white neighborhood, great public schools, parents then had success and moved to upper middle class or whatever through high school... but certainly not caught in the cycle of near poverty that so many here seem utterly unaware of, or utterly coldhearted toward.

So funny how you and others seem to just assume I'm calling for unlimited raises for the world, when much of my life I am working to find the right balance - in both my business efforts and as general policy.

There is not one specific answer in this entire post. Good job. Get back to me when you're ready to talk specifics.

 

[msommer]

So they compare all US McDonalds workers (a huge number of which are under 21) with the ones that are over 21 in Denmark? if you are over 18 you earn as an adult in Denmark.

How many McDs workers in Denmark are under 21? How do the apples to apples numbers compare? The correct comparison would be under 18 in Denmark vs under 21 in the US. I honestly don't have any employment stats for McD in Denmark but just browsed their website in DK and looked lime about half of the job ads were for under 18s

What is Denmark's unemployment rate for the demographic that most work at McD in the US compared to the demographic that most works at McD in Denmark?

The overall unemployment rate is about 6%. It's not particlarly prestigious to work at McD in Denmark (either)

All those are crucial statistics that aren't even mentioned.

 

[RhymesMcJuice]

Is there anything stopping people like cstu and Koya from tipping these employees if they feel they should be making more money? Seems like the whole thing could be handled without government intervention if there were enough demand for it.

The only self-absorbed drains around here is the Koya-led contingent. It's about making THEMSELVES feel better - not actually doing anything about it. In the end, it's all about platitudes. They talk about wanting to help others but never really do anything about it themselves OR they just want others to pay for it. Pretty much par for the course with these type of guys.

I would be paying for it if the minimum wage was raised. We have a systemic problem, not something that can be solved by me tipping a fast food worker here or there.

Nice deflection. It sure as hell wouldn't HURT if you did do it though, would it?

I actually do tip when I go to restaurants that have a tip jar. It doesn't feel like I'm doing much to affect their lives.

 

[DrJ]

On my end, I always offer IT as a viable way to break out of this cycle without spending a fortune on education expenses. You don't really need a quarter of a million dollar education to get by in this world. There are piles of jobs out there that Americans are simply unable to fill. I know people with low level skills whose phone rings off the hook when they'e looking for a job. It would be great if we didn't have to import people to fill these jobs, or offshore them so you can get your equipment cheaper. I share training materials, offer advice on how to get lab time on the cheap with materials most of which people already have. Or with inexpensive cloud services that are readily available. And it's not like it takes years to gain the skills necessary to land some of these jobs. You're talking more like months. And it's not like you need to be a genius either - being good at being nice to the person you're supporting is a skill in itself that will make up for deficiencies in other areas. Sadly, few people that I offer advice to ever actually take it. I actually gave my phone number to a bouncer at a bachelor party - rather than watching the stripper I struck up a conversation with this dude and talked about how much he must enjoy his job. He didn't. So I offered to help him. And he never called. Just a few weeks ago I offered a guy that does work in the field some help in improving his situation - I looked up certification tracks for him that would help in the areas he wanted to be in, shared out training materials on dropbox, etc. Last week he asked for a reference and I asked what he had been doing on the training side of things. Nothing. It's really disappointing.

My wife works with children with learning disabilities, foster children, etc. That's a real bummer as well. She doesn't make $15 an hour doing it either which is where my sending her to work at McDonald's comments came from.

It's not like we don't feel bad for these people. But there's only so much you can do to help people that don't want to help themselves. There really is no magic answer other than Americans actually getting their priorities in line. We're not helpless to these corporations unless we choose to be. Sadly, most people are choosing to be. Because that's easy and entertaining.

 

[The Big Guy]

An appropriate illustration for this thread.

You may want to start with just what world view you take issue with? Hate compassion? An understanding of socioeconomics?

What ya got?

Compassion is keeping these jobs viable at some reasonable wage. Want to see a million jobs disappear overnight? Raise the wage for these jobs to $15 an hour. We'll see touch screen ordering and robotic burger flippers in no time flat.

Where have I, in this thread or another, called for a $15 Min wage? My fathers biz is manufacturing. I am quite familiar with the potentially crippling effect such a imprudent jump could result in.

That does not, however, preclude me from sympathizing and empathizing with those who are struggling to make ends meet, especially in high cost of living areas. Moreso for their children, who don't exactly have much say in the matter. And the flippance and arrogance, not to mention coldheartedness of some to discuss this as if it's just another political issue to hold some faux-ideology in place is disturbing. This is about ####### people, and a good number on this board don't seem to ever really make that connection. If anything is self serving and self righteous, it's the sad commentary of how these folks should have gotten a better education or just buck up and work their way to a better life.

If it were that easy, we would not have this epidemic of a huge swarth of our nation for whom quality of life is far, far below what we SHOULD accept in a free and just nation that cares about all its residents.

Maybe I grew up around a few too many people who were satisfied with accepting their government cheese and handouts and did not even being to comprehend why they are not getting ahead or have any inclination to get ahead in this world. Those are the people that I have no desire to help further and want to continue to struggle to get by (in their rent subsidized apt while wearing their 200 dollar sneakers) and I will cheer and encourage those who are busting their asses to get by and trying to make something of themselves.

 

[The Big Guy]

An appropriate illustration for this thread.

You may want to start with just what world view you take issue with? Hate compassion? An understanding of socioeconomics?

What ya got?

Compassion is keeping these jobs viable at some reasonable wage. Want to see a million jobs disappear overnight? Raise the wage for these jobs to $15 an hour. We'll see touch screen ordering and robotic burger flippers in no time flat.

Where have I, in this thread or another, called for a $15 Min wage? My fathers biz is manufacturing. I am quite familiar with the potentially crippling effect such a imprudent jump could result in.

That does not, however, preclude me from sympathizing and empathizing with those who are struggling to make ends meet, especially in high cost of living areas. Moreso for their children, who don't exactly have much say in the matter. And the flippance and arrogance, not to mention coldheartedness of some to discuss this as if it's just another political issue to hold some faux-ideology in place is disturbing. This is about ####### people, and a good number on this board don't seem to ever really make that connection. If anything is self serving and self righteous, it's the sad commentary of how these folks should have gotten a better education or just buck up and work their way to a better life.

If it were that easy, we would not have this epidemic of a huge swarth of our nation for whom quality of life is far, far below what we SHOULD accept in a free and just nation that cares about all its residents.

Maybe I grew up around a few too many people who were satisfied with accepting their government cheese and handouts and did not even being to comprehend why they are not getting ahead or have any inclination to get ahead in this world. Those are the people that I have no desire to help further and want to continue to struggle to get by (in their rent subsidized apt while wearing their 200 dollar sneakers) and I will cheer and encourage those who are busting their asses to get by and trying to make something of themselves.

 

[Sand]

An appropriate illustration for this thread.

You may want to start with just what world view you take issue with? Hate compassion? An understanding of socioeconomics?

What ya got?

Compassion is keeping these jobs viable at some reasonable wage. Want to see a million jobs disappear overnight? Raise the wage for these jobs to $15 an hour. We'll see touch screen ordering and robotic burger flippers in no time flat.

Where have I, in this thread or another, called for a $15 Min wage? My fathers biz is manufacturing. I am quite familiar with the potentially crippling effect such a imprudent jump could result in.

Then what would you do for this population?

 

[Sand]

On my end, I always offer IT as a viable way to break out of this cycle without spending a fortune on education expenses. You don't really need a quarter of a million dollar education to get by in this world. There are piles of jobs out there that Americans are simply unable to fill. I know people with low level skills whose phone rings off the hook when they'e looking for a job. It would be great if we didn't have to import people to fill these jobs, or offshore them so you can get your equipment cheaper. I share training materials, offer advice on how to get lab time on the cheap with materials most of which people already have. Or with inexpensive cloud services that are readily available. And it's not like it takes years to gain the skills necessary to land some of these jobs. You're talking more like months. And it's not like you need to be a genius either - being good at being nice to the person you're supporting is a skill in itself that will make up for deficiencies in other areas. Sadly, few people that I offer advice to ever actually take it. I actually gave my phone number to a bouncer at a bachelor party - rather than watching the stripper I struck up a conversation with this dude and talked about how much he must enjoy his job. He didn't. So I offered to help him. And he never called. Just a few weeks ago I offered a guy that does work in the field some help in improving his situation - I looked up certification tracks for him that would help in the areas he wanted to be in, shared out training materials on dropbox, etc. Last week he asked for a reference and I asked what he had been doing on the training side of things. Nothing. It's really disappointing.

My wife works with children with learning disabilities, foster children, etc. That's a real bummer as well. She doesn't make $15 an hour doing it either which is where my sending her to work at McDonald's comments came from.

It's not like we don't feel bad for these people. But there's only so much you can do to help people that don't want to help themselves. There really is no magic answer other than Americans actually getting their priorities in line. We're not helpless to these corporations unless we choose to be. Sadly, most people are choosing to be. Because that's easy and entertaining.

As the father of a 15 year old who I'd like to "launch" someday here I'd love to get a PM on what areas you're talking about here.

 

[pats3in4]

With the labor laws in place in Denmark, would there be more McDonalds there if such laws weren't in place?

If the USA had similar labor laws, would there be 12000 McDonalds across the country?

The loss of potential jobs is the hidden cost. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing, though. Maybe fewer better paying jobs is better than more lesser paying jobs. Depends on how you value either situation for society's net benefit.

 

[msommer]

With the labor laws in place in Denmark, would there be more McDonalds there if such laws weren't in place?

If the USA had similar labor laws, would there be 12000 McDonalds across the country?

The loss of potential jobs is the hidden cost. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing, though. Maybe fewer better paying jobs is better than more lesser paying jobs. Depends on how you value either situation for society's net benefit.

Personally I don't think there is a shortage of MacDonalds or other fast food chains in Denmark. They do have stiff competition from the hot dog stands (traditional but possibly on the decline, and shawarma joints - definitely on the incline).

 

[msommer]

As an additional comment into this discussion a Big Mac in Brazil now costs even more there than in Denmark at $5.86. The minimum wage has increased by five fold since 1996 there. Yet somehow there are still enormous amouths of McD and other fast food outlets operating in Brazil

 

[Hilts]

It's not like we don't feel bad for these people. But there's only so much you can do to help people that don't want to help themselves. There really is no magic answer other than Americans actually getting their priorities in line. We're not helpless to these corporations unless we choose to be. Sadly, most people are choosing to be. Because that's easy and entertaining.

Aside from us all having a bad case of the sads, we should realize it does cost us money one way or the other to deal with certain folks. Whether that money comes from companies paying better wages or government supplementing them. We're not going to let people starve in the streets. Aside from going BIG, I'm all for raising minimum wages.

 

[Koya]

An appropriate illustration for this thread.

You may want to start with just what world view you take issue with? Hate compassion? An understanding of socioeconomics?

What ya got?

Compassion is keeping these jobs viable at some reasonable wage. Want to see a million jobs disappear overnight? Raise the wage for these jobs to $15 an hour. We'll see touch screen ordering and robotic burger flippers in no time flat.

Where have I, in this thread or another, called for a $15 Min wage? My fathers biz is manufacturing. I am quite familiar with the potentially crippling effect such a imprudent jump could result in.

Then what would you do for this population?

THAT is the important question here. The answer is hardly simple.

My greater concern is this:

Worker productivity / the utilization of robotics and other technologies appears to have us on a trajectory whereby the full population, simply put, won't HAVE to work. In fact, there may not be "work" for them even to do (ie, a situation where production of life's essentials, food, shelter etc, can be accomplished with a limited population of workers overall). What the hell do we do then? Honestly. Contrary to the painting that some provide for me, hard work and dedication to a craft or to work in general, is a valued attribute. Why SHOULD anyone "get something for free" (unless they are literally unable to work / be productive).

However, what choices do we as a society make when there could, foreseeable, be an entire class of people who simply don't have to work... and I don't mean of the aristocracy or even bourgeois classes. The working class. Do we have some baseline "welfare" or other govt program to provide food, housing, education? Seems scarily like some futuristic movie. Do we just ignore the "un-needed" class of workers? Live in bourgeois bubble cities with post apocalyptic scenes outside?

It sounds like I am making light of these scenarios, but quite the opposite.

So, to answer your question: Are we solving the issue for today (or at least addressing it), or looking forward? And if so, how far forward? Very pertinent questions.

 

[Koya]

An appropriate illustration for this thread.

You may want to start with just what world view you take issue with? Hate compassion? An understanding of socioeconomics?

What ya got?

Compassion is keeping these jobs viable at some reasonable wage. Want to see a million jobs disappear overnight? Raise the wage for these jobs to $15 an hour. We'll see touch screen ordering and robotic burger flippers in no time flat.

Where have I, in this thread or another, called for a $15 Min wage? My fathers biz is manufacturing. I am quite familiar with the potentially crippling effect such a imprudent jump could result in.

Then what would you do for this population?

FWIW, as a "right now" scenario, I do believe a minor increase would be beneficial. The problem is, by increasing the min wage without any other policies, you pass the burden not to those who can absorb it (the wealthy, to some degree larger businesses, certainly within those industries that are highly profitable), but to the middle class / small biz owner who can not absorb the burden of a more living wage for all employees.

While it strikes against everything I've believed in for so long, is there a case for some "floor" dole by the gov't that helps spread that wealth redistribution (lets be honest, that's what we are talking here) in a manner to not hurt the middle class but uplift the lower a class just a bit?

Personally, my burning fire is about individual freedom and liberty, and that may at one point be the necessary approach - but the idea of something for nothing kills me. Maybe there is a national program that offers some additional pay but for works that actually need to be done (infrastructure, policing, teaching etc).... if only gov't didn't suck so much at implementing everything.

 

[SlimShady]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

 

[Politician Spock]

I would like to see fast food workers paid more given that workforce is vastly different than it was 50 years ago. I can't remember the last time I was waited on by a teenager at McDonalds, but teenaged workers is what the fast food business model is based on.

That being said, paying adults a wage they can live on will only force fast food businesses to replace cashiers with automated order/payment stations, and more automation in the food prep. Because doing so will make ABC fastfood business's signature sandwich $0.35 cheaper than their competition who still pays humans to cashier and prep food, and that $0.35 will cause ABC to succeed while their competition fails.

 

[fatness]

It's funny that some Americans are upset about the wages of McDonalds workers in Denmark.

 

[msommer]

It's funny that some Americans are upset about the wages of McDonalds workers in Denmark.

Maybe it challenges their world view in uncomfortable ways

 

[Da Guru]

35 cents more than in the U.S.

Fast food workers across the globe have been holding protests and walking out on their jobs in an attempt to force the industry to raise wages to at least $15 an hour.

In response to the protests, McDonald's, one of the largest fast food chains in the world, has warned that wage increases would force franchisees to raise menu prices.

But in Denmark, McDonald's employees make twice what they do in the US, and the Big Mac costs just 35 cents more, William Finnegan writes in the New Yorker.

McDonald's workers in the US make a median hourly wage of $9.15, according a New York Times report citing PayScale, a firm that tracks compensation data. McDonald's does not provide data on its wages.

"In Denmark, McDonald's workers over the age of eighteen earn more than $20 an hour — they are also unionized — and the price of a Big Mac is only thirty-five cents more than it is in the United States," Finnegan writes.

Thanks to unionization, workers in Denmark also get paid sick leave and overtime pay.

On average, the Big Mac costs about $4.80 in the US and $5.15 in Denmark, according to the Economist's Big Mac index, which tracks the price of Big Macs across the world.

There are also domestic fast food chains, such as In-N-Out Burger, that have managed to pay employees more than McDonald's while still selling food at cheap prices, Finnegan points out. In-N-Out's starting wages are $11 an hour.

Fast food companies' "traditional defense of miserable pay — that most of their employees are young, part time, just working for gas money, really — has grown threadbare," Finnegan writes.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/denmark-mcdonalds-pays-20-an-hour-2014-9#ixzz3DDXwj4P3

A waitress at Denny's probably makes far less than a waitress at Ruth's Chris. I suggest that those McDonald's workers who are dissatisfied with their current pay rate apply at In N Out if they want to make more. Or learn an actual skilled trade so they can get out of that industry completely. I've never understood why people feel they should get paid more than their job is worth, and have zero sympathy for them. Sorry, I just don't.

If they do learn a skill and move on they will be replaced by another unskilled worker who will complain that the pay is too low. It is a never ending cycle.

 

[humpback]

If they do learn a skill and move on they will be replaced by another unskilled worker who will complain that the pay is too low. It is a never ending cycle.

That's a problem for sure, although if enough people learn a skill and move on maybe they'll be replaced by younger unskilled workers, who should be working these jobs. The cycle is never going to end if people try to make a career out of flipping burgers.

 

[Godsbrother]

At $20/hour you are talking over $41,000/yr to flip burgers. There are a ton of college graduates with school loans to pay off that aren't making that money.

Kinda makes them chumps for going out and getting an education.

 

[Christo]

At $20/hour you are talking over $41,000/yr to flip burgers. There are a ton of college graduates with school loans to pay off that aren't making that money.

Kinda makes them chumps for going out and getting an education.

That's part of the reason for the reaction.

 

[StrikeS2k]

35 cents more than in the U.S.

Fast food workers across the globe have been holding protests and walking out on their jobs in an attempt to force the industry to raise wages to at least $15 an hour.

In response to the protests, McDonald's, one of the largest fast food chains in the world, has warned that wage increases would force franchisees to raise menu prices.

But in Denmark, McDonald's employees make twice what they do in the US, and the Big Mac costs just 35 cents more, William Finnegan writes in the New Yorker.

McDonald's workers in the US make a median hourly wage of $9.15, according a New York Times report citing PayScale, a firm that tracks compensation data. McDonald's does not provide data on its wages.

"In Denmark, McDonald's workers over the age of eighteen earn more than $20 an hour — they are also unionized — and the price of a Big Mac is only thirty-five cents more than it is in the United States," Finnegan writes.

Thanks to unionization, workers in Denmark also get paid sick leave and overtime pay.

On average, the Big Mac costs about $4.80 in the US and $5.15 in Denmark, according to the Economist's Big Mac index, which tracks the price of Big Macs across the world.

There are also domestic fast food chains, such as In-N-Out Burger, that have managed to pay employees more than McDonald's while still selling food at cheap prices, Finnegan points out. In-N-Out's starting wages are $11 an hour.

Fast food companies' "traditional defense of miserable pay — that most of their employees are young, part time, just working for gas money, really — has grown threadbare," Finnegan writes.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/denmark-mcdonalds-pays-20-an-hour-2014-9#ixzz3DDXwj4P3

A waitress at Denny's probably makes far less than a waitress at Ruth's Chris. I suggest that those McDonald's workers who are dissatisfied with their current pay rate apply at In N Out if they want to make more. Or learn an actual skilled trade so they can get out of that industry completely. I've never understood why people feel they should get paid more than their job is worth, and have zero sympathy for them. Sorry, I just don't.

If they do learn a skill and move on they will be replaced by another unskilled worker who will complain that the pay is too low. It is a never ending cycle.

How is that any different than any of us with a higher level skill? We don't want entry level jobs for our entire lives either. I'm in I.T. and I still get new certifications to keep current and improve my standing within my organization/field. Accountants get out of college, get a job doing taxes and basic accounting, and study for their C.P.A. to better themselves. Then they take continuing ed. courses/exams to keep their C.P.A. current. That's how it is supposed to work. If your highest aspirations are fry cook you probably shouldn't complain about the wages.

 

[meatwad1]

So they compare all US McDonalds workers (a huge number of which are under 21) with the ones that are over 21 in Denmark?

How many McDs workers in Denmark are under 21? How do the apples to apples numbers compare?

What is Denmark's unemployment rate for the demographic that most work at McD in the US compared to the demographic that most works at McD in Denmark?

All those are crucial statistics that aren't even mentioned.

The median age of female fast food workers is 32. The median age of workers in general is 29. Nearly 40% of all McDonalds workers are trying to raise a child on what they make. This is no longer a job for pimply faced teens. These are the jobs our economy has been creating.

Does everybody get a proportional wage increase under your system of living wages? As a teacher I would say I would be around $20 - 25 an hour right now in terms of hours worked and pay. If you pay them 20 bucks an hour that is an increase of more then double. So in your system, do I get paid 50 bucks an hour. If that is your system, I will sign up for that. If that is not what you are thinking of and you just plan to give these highly unskilled people a double the amount increase without increasing everybody proportionally, I would say that you can pretty much stuff it.

 

[StrikeS2k]

So they compare all US McDonalds workers (a huge number of which are under 21) with the ones that are over 21 in Denmark?

How many McDs workers in Denmark are under 21? How do the apples to apples numbers compare?

What is Denmark's unemployment rate for the demographic that most work at McD in the US compared to the demographic that most works at McD in Denmark?

All those are crucial statistics that aren't even mentioned.

The median age of female fast food workers is 32. The median age of workers in general is 29. Nearly 40% of all McDonalds workers are trying to raise a child on what they make. This is no longer a job for pimply faced teens. These are the jobs our economy has been creating.

Does everybody get a proportional wage increase under your system of living wages....as a teacher I would say I would be around $20 - 25 an hour right now in terms of hours worked and pay. If you pay them 20 bucks an hour that is an increase of more then double. So in your system, do I get paid 50 bucks an hour. If that is your system, I will sign up for that. If that is not what you are thinking of and you just plan to give these highly unskilled people a double the amount increase without increasing everybody proportionally, I would say that you can pretty much stuff it.

But......but.......think of the children!!!!

 

[msommer]

At $20/hour you are talking over $41,000/yr to flip burgers. There are a ton of college graduates with school loans to pay off that aren't making that money.

Kinda makes them chumps for going out and getting an education.

don't forget taxes...

ETA: And employed college graduates in Denmark make at least twice that gross.

ETA2: Actually, when considering the 37 hour work week it's more like 38,500. I doubt very many people in Denmark work full time as burger flippers though

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I don't think raising the minimum wage is the right answer for an environment where we have too many workers vying for low and middle skilled positions. We've got a pretty good understanding that the combined effects of technology and globalization are creating an environment where more jobs are becoming easily displaceable. Raising the minimum wage doesn't do anything to address the underlying dynamics of the problem.

I'd actually prefer to go the other direction and eliminate the minimum wage, combined with a greatly expanded negative income tax.

 

[msommer]

I don't think raising the minimum wage is the right answer for an environment where we have too many workers vying for low and middle skilled positions. We've got a pretty good understanding that the combined effects of technology and globalization are creating an environment where more jobs are becoming easily displaceable. Raising the minimum wage doesn't do anything to address the underlying dynamics of the problem.

I'd actually prefer to go the other direction and eliminate the minimum wage, combined with a greatly expanded negative income tax.

Brazil quintupled minimum wage between 2000 and 2007 with low end double digit official unemployment (unofficial unemployment higher). Somehow there are still fast food restaurants with people working in them there to this day. It must be an economic miracle

 

[Koya]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.

Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

 

[jonessed]

I don't think raising the minimum wage is the right answer for an environment where we have too many workers vying for low and middle skilled positions. We've got a pretty good understanding that the combined effects of technology and globalization are creating an environment where more jobs are becoming easily displaceable. Raising the minimum wage doesn't do anything to address the underlying dynamics of the problem.

I'd actually prefer to go the other direction and eliminate the minimum wage, combined with a greatly expanded negative income tax.

Brazil quintupled minimum wage between 2000 and 2007 with low end double digit official unemployment (unofficial unemployment higher). Somehow there are still fast food restaurants with people working in them there to this day. It must be an economic miracle

There are very few similarities between our mature economy and a BRIC economy post-2000. While there are large differences between the US and Denmark it's still a much better comparison.

 

[jonessed]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

What's the lie?

 

[Koya]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

What's the lie?

That we are a nation of true opportunity. For all.

Perhaps during the rise of our middle class and the boom years post ww2 we had it (well, if you were white). But that sense of the American dream seems gone. And more worrisome to me seems a lack of recognition of this scary reality and, as I noted before, a callous "well, those people just need to work a little harder and have higher aspirations" approach.

I'm hardly one for large govt programs. I don't believe in giving things that are not deserved. But I also recognize that our national well being is at risk should we continue to build a society where so many are left out not only of that American dream, but any legitimate shot at gaining it through the tenets of hard work and dedication.

While it's ancillary to this conversation, in a world where worker productivity becomes greater and greater, especially for lower paying careers (ie use of technology and robotics), what happens if / when we have a class of the population that is no longer "fit" for productive work?

Guess I am becoming more acutely aware of this divide we have and it's alarming to me. As I mentioned earlier, for those who are willing to work and be productive members of society, we may have to find some public-private approach for public services to be conducted by this lower economic class that also allows for advancement for those who aspire to and deserve it (ie no welfare for not working, for having more kids, or a system that actually penalizes those trying to find work when it's actually in their and/or their kids interest to remain on the dole.

 

[Politician Spock]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

 

[Christo]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

What's the lie?

That we are a nation of true opportunity. For all.

Perhaps during the rise of our middle class and the boom years post ww2 we had it (well, if you were white). But that sense of the American dream seems gone. And more worrisome to me seems a lack of recognition of this scary reality and, as I noted before, a callous "well, those people just need to work a little harder and have higher aspirations" approach.

I'm hardly one for large govt programs. I don't believe in giving things that are not deserved. But I also recognize that our national well being is at risk should we continue to build a society where so many are left out not only of that American dream, but any legitimate shot at gaining it through the tenets of hard work and dedication.

While it's ancillary to this conversation, in a world where worker productivity becomes greater and greater, especially for lower paying careers (ie use of technology and robotics), what happens if / when we have a class of the population that is no longer "fit" for productive work?

Guess I am becoming more acutely aware of this divide we have and it's alarming to me. As I mentioned earlier, for those who are willing to work and be productive members of society, we may have to find some public-private approach for public services to be conducted by this lower economic class that also allows for advancement for those who aspire to and deserve it (ie no welfare for not working, for having more kids, or a system that actually penalizes those trying to find work when it's actually in their and/or their kids interest to remain on the dole.

I don't think anyone truly thinks this is a nation of true opportunity for all. There is true opportunity for people who have something to offer. But there's not true opportunity for someone with little to offer or little motivation. And while you may becoming more acutely aware of this, I don't think this is unique at this point in history. It's always been this way.

 

[jonessed]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

What's the lie?

That we are a nation of true opportunity. For all. Perhaps during the rise of our middle class and the boom years post ww2 we had it (well, if you were white). But that sense of the American dream seems gone. And more worrisome to me seems a lack of recognition of this scary reality and, as I noted before, a callous "well, those people just need to work a little harder and have higher aspirations" approach.

I'm hardly one for large govt programs. I don't believe in giving things that are not deserved. But I also recognize that our national well being is at risk should we continue to build a society where so many are left out not only of that American dream, but any legitimate shot at gaining it through the tenets of hard work and dedication.

While it's ancillary to this conversation, in a world where worker productivity becomes greater and greater, especially for lower paying careers (ie use of technology and robotics), what happens if / when we have a class of the population that is no longer "fit" for productive work?

Guess I am becoming more acutely aware of this divide we have and it's alarming to me. As I mentioned earlier, for those who are willing to work and be productive members of society, we may have to find some public-private approach for public services to be conducted by this lower economic class that also allows for advancement for those who aspire to and deserve it (ie no welfare for not working, for having more kids, or a system that actually penalizes those trying to find work when it's actually in their and/or their kids interest to remain on the dole.

I don't think that's a lie, at least not with regard to what the other options are. I've never been of the opinion that financial well-being and education don't greatly influences one's lot in life though. I can't think of a society where power and money have had no influence.

The US economic expansion post-WW2 was unprecedented. If trying to recreate that era is your chosen crusade I expect you will continue to be disappointed.

 

[Sand]

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

The callous part of me says in these disadvantaged areas to move to a two tier education system instead of the egalitarian system we promote now. Separate the wheat from the chaff and concentrate on the talented and motivated.

 

[RhymesMcJuice]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

 

[Politician Spock]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

 

[RhymesMcJuice]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

 

[humpback]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Because their burger flippers make more?

Seriously though, it probably has something to do with different values and demographics.

 

[jonessed]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

 

[Koya]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

What's the lie?

That we are a nation of true opportunity. For all.Perhaps during the rise of our middle class and the boom years post ww2 we had it (well, if you were white). But that sense of the American dream seems gone. And more worrisome to me seems a lack of recognition of this scary reality and, as I noted before, a callous "well, those people just need to work a little harder and have higher aspirations" approach.

I'm hardly one for large govt programs. I don't believe in giving things that are not deserved. But I also recognize that our national well being is at risk should we continue to build a society where so many are left out not only of that American dream, but any legitimate shot at gaining it through the tenets of hard work and dedication.

While it's ancillary to this conversation, in a world where worker productivity becomes greater and greater, especially for lower paying careers (ie use of technology and robotics), what happens if / when we have a class of the population that is no longer "fit" for productive work?

Guess I am becoming more acutely aware of this divide we have and it's alarming to me. As I mentioned earlier, for those who are willing to work and be productive members of society, we may have to find some public-private approach for public services to be conducted by this lower economic class that also allows for advancement for those who aspire to and deserve it (ie no welfare for not working, for having more kids, or a system that actually penalizes those trying to find work when it's actually in their and/or their kids interest to remain on the dole.

I don't think that's a lie, at least not with regard to what the other options are. I've never been of the opinion that financial well-being and education don't greatly influences one's lot in life though. I can't think of a society where power and money have had no influence.

The US economic expansion post-WW2 was unprecedented. If trying to recreate that era is your chosen crusade I expect you will continue to be disappointed.

I am not foolish enough to think the post war boom, and the early decades of two family lives - not to mention 20 years as a segregated nation let us not forget (its not that long folks) - are applicable here.

My points of discussion are more along the lines of... what now? This great experiment of freedom? It had such upside, and a world-wide revolutionary effect in its first decades as man could now live free - more free than ever before. But, this was a freedom wrought with inequality, racism, subjugation. Just not by a King, but of one people's over another. In the name of freedom.

Our growth as a nation hit fits and spurts. Civil War, the extension of even the most basic freedom's to anyone not lucky enough to be born white. Oh, then we let women vote. What a novel freakin' idea. Onward and upward through desegregation and the resulting economic cycles of poverty we see today.

I LOVE FREEDOM.

It is my single biggest guiding political principle. That all men are born free. And no gov't should infringe on that. However, we are not free if raiders roam our villages, so we have police. And we are not free if a corporation can outright lie and thereby kills or harms thousands or more. You see where I am going. What is the place for government?

So many agree that in theory, the best gov't is a benevolent dictator. The people are free, the land flourishes, order is maintained.

Personally, I'd give up more order to retain freedom, however (1) not everyone agrees with me there and (2) even I recognize, as stated above, that anarchy is hardly freedom at all.

SO, and sorry for the rant, but where do we go from here? From where we are NOW? A nation that is finally recognizing the theoretical (and legal) equality for everyone, but who's society at large is anything but a mirror of those ideals?

Communism kills the human spirits, even if the idea is utopic. Is, however, our particular brand of governance doomed in another manner? To recreate the class divisions and uprisings that freedom should preclude to a large degree?

Maybe there is a future where, dare I say we explore "socialist" ideals of governance, while continuing to allow for as much free market and imo, the most important of all, personal freedom and liberty, as possible.

 

[Koya]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Denmark is largely a socialist system.

While I am hardly ready to embrace socialism head on, perhaps this is something we need to at least recognize.

Don't think that brand of governance works here, but what's wrong with having a happy, enlightened, healthy electorate?

 

[Politician Spock]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Most people would say the game is still working here.

 

[Christo]

When people begin a game of monopoly, everyone has a true oportunity.

If however you are born into the game well after it started, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Without getting help from those who have already succeeded you will for the remainder of the game be nothing but a pawn living pay check to pay check.

American capitalism is just a big game of Monopoly with a millions more in players, millions more in real estate and millions more in rules than the board game. Unlike the board game, American capitalism advanced rules keep people from failing out of the game. But these rules do nothing to help them achieve success by staying in the game. If anything, it just promises a false sense of hope, which is fed by random incidents of someone with nothing in the game coming up with the next multimillion dollar idea. They believe if America works for that guy, than it can work for me too... but they are one of many millions that it will never work for. The game is what it is.

And when someone mentions "income redistribution" to improve the game they are labelled a Communist.

The game has been being "improved" for a couple centuries now. I think it's beyond improvement now and unfortunately is on its last legs.

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Most people would say the game is still working here.

Including the millions of illegal immigrants who work non-skilled jobs and the millions of immigrants who timmy thinks we need.

 

[chauncey]

Koya, I may not agree with everything you say but I appreciate your contributions in this thread

 

[EYLive]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.

Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

You're wrong. My family isn't white, and my parent's (and their siblings) generation were legal immigrants with little English skills and worked as minimum wage laborers; what you would call the lowest level of our economic ladder. One generation later my cousins and I are doing very well. None of as are exceptional at anything. A lot of my friends grew up the same way.

This nation is the best. Time to stop blaming poor parents as the reason people can't succeed.

 

[RhymesMcJuice]

We live in a society full of opportunity. Im thankful for that alone. Good thing we dont live in India.

We live in a society that I'm learning is largely that of false opportunity. If you are middle class or above you have an ok chance to do something great if not improve upon your family's lot. If you are born wealthy and/or connected, the sky is the limit (and sometimes regardless of your work ethic or professional acumen). If you are min wage level - borderline poverty or worse, basically you are screwed.

Now, even those at the lowest levels of our economic ladder have the CHANCE to overcome extreme odds by some mix of perseverance, exceptional professional skill, luck and/or athletic prowess, but we had a thread not long ago here that once again clearly spelled out that your eventual lot in life is dependent far more upon where your lot began than any real (or should I say in any way far, equal or available to all) opportunity.

Let's begin to be a bit more honest about our nation. I feel this continual lying to ourselves (some mix of nationalistic pride and guilt/shame I'd think) is only doing our nation harm.

You're wrong. My family isn't white, and my parent's (and their siblings) generation were legal immigrants with little English skills and worked as minimum wage laborers; what you would call the lowest level of our economic ladder. One generation later my cousins and I are doing very well. None of as are exceptional at anything. A lot of my friends grew up the same way.

This nation is the best. Time to stop blaming poor parents as the reason people can't succeed.

Your parents stayed married and make sure you did well in school, right?

 

[RhymesMcJuice]

Why is the game working in places like Denmark, the world's happiest country?

Most people would say the game is still working here.

America is a great country but I'd rather have us #1 than #17.