DFS and Gambling - A Discussion (1 Viewer)

[CletiusMaximus]

Fanduel announced today a $275m round which now values the company at over $1bln. That's pretty amazing. Sophisticated investors KKR, Google capital, Time Warner, Disney, - none of them apparently have any concern this is an online gambling endeavor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/14/business/dealbook/fanduel-to-announce-it-has-raised-275-million-more.html

 

[JohnnyU]

Not saying this applies to original poster but this how ripping off leagues gets started when a commish robs Peter to pay Paul to feed his gambling addiction.

 

[Shutout]

Looking back at this two years after the fact, it is amazing to me how saturated Fanduel and Draft kings has become in the football scene. I keep thinking of what seems like 10-15 commercials for it during every football game.

It IS up to us as individuals to keep ourselves in check, seek help when needed, etc, but I have always had a bad feeling about how prevalent these companies are in the FF landscape now. It feels a bit like a runaway train to me that could have some far-reaching negative impacts on people. That may be overreaction on my part but I have avoided the two sites and don't want to fall into that.

One of the first posts in this thread is a person talking about being upset on Christmas day, ignoring family, etc because of their FF playoffs. I think that is the wall I hit. I had a similar experience 3 years ago and had my "aha" moment and I'm glad I did.

A lot of people on here know how to keep things in check and will boast about their winnings and outline how it hasn't ruined their lives but I sense a lot of those people need to move beyond just their bank accounts and look at the other aspects, like the early poster mentioned. Money won or lost is not the only measure in whether it is a problem.

 

[JohnnyU]

Looking back at this two years after the fact, it is amazing to me how saturated Fanduel and Draft kings has become in the football scene. I keep thinking of what seems like 10-15 commercials for it during every football game.

It IS up to us as individuals to keep ourselves in check, seek help when needed, etc, but I have always had a bad feeling about how prevalent these companies are in the FF landscape now. It feels a bit like a runaway train to me that could have some far-reaching negative impacts on people. That may be overreaction on my part but I have avoided the two sites and don't want to fall into that.

One of the first posts in this thread is a person talking about being upset on Christmas day, ignoring family, etc because of their FF playoffs. I think that is the wall I hit. I had a similar experience 3 years ago and had my "aha" moment and I'm glad I did.

A lot of people on here know how to keep things in check and will boast about their winnings and outline how it hasn't ruined their lives but I sense a lot of those people need to move beyond just their bank accounts and look at the other aspects, like the early poster mentioned. Money won or lost is not the only measure in whether it is a problem.

Gamblers rarely tell the truth about their actual losses.

 

[BoltBacker]

Fanduel announced today a $275m round which now values the company at over $1bln. That's pretty amazing. Sophisticated investors KKR, Google capital, Time Warner, Disney, - none of them apparently have any concern this is an online gambling endeavor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/14/business/dealbook/fanduel-to-announce-it-has-raised-275-million-more.html

I still marvel at the fact the stock market isn't considered gambling.... and that sport is fixed.

 

[Shutout]

Looking back at this two years after the fact, it is amazing to me how saturated Fanduel and Draft kings has become in the football scene. I keep thinking of what seems like 10-15 commercials for it during every football game.

It IS up to us as individuals to keep ourselves in check, seek help when needed, etc, but I have always had a bad feeling about how prevalent these companies are in the FF landscape now. It feels a bit like a runaway train to me that could have some far-reaching negative impacts on people. That may be overreaction on my part but I have avoided the two sites and don't want to fall into that.

One of the first posts in this thread is a person talking about being upset on Christmas day, ignoring family, etc because of their FF playoffs. I think that is the wall I hit. I had a similar experience 3 years ago and had my "aha" moment and I'm glad I did.

A lot of people on here know how to keep things in check and will boast about their winnings and outline how it hasn't ruined their lives but I sense a lot of those people need to move beyond just their bank accounts and look at the other aspects, like the early poster mentioned. Money won or lost is not the only measure in whether it is a problem.

Gamblers rarely tell the truth about their actual losses.

great point. I am naïve to a lot of it.

 

[Warrior]

I used to be just like you guys. I was happy with playing a few fantasy football leagues a season. Then FBGs started turning me on to Fanduel. I started gradually at first. I began by throwing $5 into a few weekly contests.

But I got bored waiting for the Monday night game to finish to see if I won that week. So then I moved on to playing just the 1pm contest. Then the 4pm. Then Sunday & Monday night only. I needed more and more action. I was addicted to the rush of the game and wanted to enter more and more contests.

Football season ended so I moved on to daily games in basketball and baseball. I know little about these sports, but I didn't care. I now just stick to the $109 50/50s. I've played in over 600 of these now. I've won a few more of these contests than I've lost, and I don't understand why I'm still seriously behind in funds.

I wish I could go back to just a few leagues a season.

Probably related to the MASSIVE rake they milk out of all their users.

 

[BoltBacker]

I used to be just like you guys. I was happy with playing a few fantasy football leagues a season. Then FBGs started turning me on to Fanduel. I started gradually at first. I began by throwing $5 into a few weekly contests.

But I got bored waiting for the Monday night game to finish to see if I won that week. So then I moved on to playing just the 1pm contest. Then the 4pm. Then Sunday & Monday night only. I needed more and more action. I was addicted to the rush of the game and wanted to enter more and more contests.

Football season ended so I moved on to daily games in basketball and baseball. I know little about these sports, but I didn't care. I now just stick to the $109 50/50s. I've played in over 600 of these now. I've won a few more of these contests than I've lost, and I don't understand why I'm still seriously behind in funds.

I wish I could go back to just a few leagues a season.

Probably related to the MASSIVE rake they milk out of all their users.

Or it's simply the nature of gaming. LittleLary could go to Las Vegas with his life savings and bet $10 every spin on red until he retires.... or he's penniless even if he hits on red a couple more times. There is a reason the building is sitting there and the electricity is still on.

 

[Warrior]

I used to be just like you guys. I was happy with playing a few fantasy football leagues a season. Then FBGs started turning me on to Fanduel. I started gradually at first. I began by throwing $5 into a few weekly contests.

But I got bored waiting for the Monday night game to finish to see if I won that week. So then I moved on to playing just the 1pm contest. Then the 4pm. Then Sunday & Monday night only. I needed more and more action. I was addicted to the rush of the game and wanted to enter more and more contests.

Football season ended so I moved on to daily games in basketball and baseball. I know little about these sports, but I didn't care. I now just stick to the $109 50/50s. I've played in over 600 of these now. I've won a few more of these contests than I've lost, and I don't understand why I'm still seriously behind in funds.

I wish I could go back to just a few leagues a season.

Probably related to the MASSIVE rake they milk out of all their users.

Or it's simply the nature of gaming. LittleLary could go to Las Vegas with his life savings and bet $10 every spin on red until he retires.... or he's penniless even if he hits on red a couple more times. There is a reason the building is sitting there and the electricity is still on.

Right, and the reason is partly because FBG generates a massive user base of paying customers and then shamelessly 'sells' them to a gambling site to make a little extra profit.

It'll all go away soon though. Just like online poker...now that the big $ has started rolling in, the Feds will bring down the hammer. There's no difference between FanDuel and sports betting, which is illegal in many states where FanDuel's users reside. Hopefully the traditional fantasy world doesn't get brough down with it.

 

[karmarooster]

The discussion is all over the place ITT:

-Fanduel is not in the same universe as Phenoms or other fantasy sites to go broke. If it were to pull off a fraud, it would be more similar to the accounting manipulations Enron or Worldcom than some Joe fantasy league that turns belly up because the guy blew all of the cash. You don't get investors like KKR to give you hundreds of millions of dollars if you any "random dude might steal my money risk". They certainly have tight controls even on the funds that are held in escrow, I'd imagine in some sort of money market funds to earn a return on the roughly $370 million dollars they held last year during Q4 alone -- that number could approach a "bill" during Q4 2015. Strict monetary controls are required by VC firms in exchange for their capital contributions.

-Yes, its more like a casino, and Gaming is a huge source of profits (for the casinos). The difference is, Fanduel has to run a server while Bellagio has to run a gigantic hotel with thousands of staff and tons and tons of overhead, comply with complicated gaming regulations, etc. etc.

-I don't think that Fanduel is even 1% as socially harmful as the lottery (particularly scratch offs) or gaming cities like Vegas and AC. There are sure to be compulsive gamblers who spend too much and lose more than they afford. But I don't think it's quite as predatory as those awful commercials for the lottery giving the poor a glimmer of hope if they just buy a few scratch offs because hey, 'You never know, right?'. Every bodega in NYC has a handful of working class poor who come in and throw away half their pay check every week. Hopefully even the biggest DFS fans aren't anywhere near that level.

-The DFS market is not yet saturated. It continues to see exponential growth. Take a look at Fanduel user growth by year during NFL season"

2011 = 17,000

2012 = 69,000

2013 = 192,000

2014 = 1,012,000

If they continue the same trend of growth in 2015, the number of users during the NFL season could be over 4 million. Realistically, the growth has to switch from exponential to linear at some point and they'll probably hit half that number, so more conservatively, about 2 million users on Fanduel coming up in 2015. However, that is just scratching the surface of the fantasy sports industry. There are an estimated 56 million fantasy sports players across all sports. Almost 20% of the adult male population. We've all seen the proliferation since the early 2000s and now fantasy football has come to dominate ESPN and popular culture to some extent.

The thing is, as sites like Fanduel and Draftkings grow and grow, they attract more and more casual users who are the kind of players that play in home-town, group of buddies season long leagues. The kind of guys who threw a couple dollars at Party Poker back in the day. More and more users means softer competition. If Fanduel breaks 2 million users this year, it will certainly be 'easier' to earn a profit than if there were a couple hundred thousand users -- I noticed this distinctly last year as compared to 2013 due to the 425% user growth during Q4.

Training camp can't get here soon enough...

 

[MattFancy]

Wife and I had a discussion about whether or not DFS is considered gambling or not. I of course don't think of it as gambling. But I know many do.

 

[BoltBacker]

People pretending traditional fantasy football isn't gambling are being even more shameless. I don't care if they are just playing for raisins at the church BINGO hall. Or if you are playing for scratcher tickets. Or maybe chips to use in the indian casino paying the lobbyists to make "gambling" illegal.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

The interesting part for me and the reason I made a post about this new round of financing (taking the FanDuel valuation over $1bln) is that the legality is mostly based on language in the 2006 online gambling legislation which exempted fantasy games. Certainly, at the time, no one contemplated what we have today with Fan Duel and Draft Kings, which is quite obviously a gambling enterprise by any reasonable definition of that concept. Nonetheless, KKR and others are putting real money into this, so one can assume their risk management folks are comfortable with the legal status going forward.

 

[karmarooster]

The interesting part for me and the reason I made a post about this new round of financing (taking the FanDuel valuation over $1bln) is that the legality is mostly based on language in the 2006 online gambling legislation which exempted fantasy games. Certainly, at the time, no one contemplated what we have today with Fan Duel and Draft Kings, which is quite obviously a gambling enterprise by any reasonable definition of that concept. Nonetheless, KKR and others are putting real money into this, so one can assume their risk management folks are comfortable with the legal status going forward.

The reason I believe Fanduel and Draftkings enjoy a more stable position than Party Poker and Poker Stars -- soft power. The NFL has a strong lobbying arm, enjoys tax exempt status, convinces cities all across the country to publicly fund hundred million dollar stadiums as a subsidy to billionaire owners, and then blacks-out games in local markets if all the tickets don't sell. The NFL has deep roots within Congress and uses that to its favor to a much greater extent than the gaming lobby, which is more pushed around and relegated to a few select cities and sovereign Indian nations.

 

[iamkoza]

im already addicted to fantasy football.... i've been able to stay away from daily leagues know full well that i wouldnt be able to handle it

 

[Bronco Billy]

Has anyone else struggled with this?

dude, the site is ripping you off; do your best to stay away and theres no shame in seeking help for gambling. Your not the 1st and you won't be the last.

You're 100% right.But I like FBGs a lot. Why are they choosing to be partners with a site that rips people off?

It's part of being excellent to each other.

 

[need2know]

Has anyone else struggled with this?

dude, the site is ripping you off; do your best to stay away and theres no shame in seeking help for gambling. Your not the 1st and you won't be the last.

You're 100% right.But I like FBGs a lot. Why are they choosing to be partners with a site that rips people off?

It's part of being excellent to each other.

It's not personal, it's strictly business

 

[Shutout]

The discussion is all over the place ITT:

-Fanduel is not in the same universe as Phenoms or other fantasy sites to go broke. If it were to pull off a fraud, it would be more similar to the accounting manipulations Enron or Worldcom than some Joe fantasy league that turns belly up because the guy blew all of the cash. You don't get investors like KKR to give you hundreds of millions of dollars if you any "random dude might steal my money risk". They certainly have tight controls even on the funds that are held in escrow, I'd imagine in some sort of money market funds to earn a return on the roughly $370 million dollars they held last year during Q4 alone -- that number could approach a "bill" during Q4 2015. Strict monetary controls are required by VC firms in exchange for their capital contributions.

-Yes, its more like a casino, and Gaming is a huge source of profits (for the casinos). The difference is, Fanduel has to run a server while Bellagio has to run a gigantic hotel with thousands of staff and tons and tons of overhead, comply with complicated gaming regulations, etc. etc.

-I don't think that Fanduel is even 1% as socially harmful as the lottery (particularly scratch offs) or gaming cities like Vegas and AC. There are sure to be compulsive gamblers who spend too much and lose more than they afford. But I don't think it's quite as predatory as those awful commercials for the lottery giving the poor a glimmer of hope if they just buy a few scratch offs because hey, 'You never know, right?'. Every bodega in NYC has a handful of working class poor who come in and throw away half their pay check every week. Hopefully even the biggest DFS fans aren't anywhere near that level.

-The DFS market is not yet saturated. It continues to see exponential growth. Take a look at Fanduel user growth by year during NFL season"

2011 = 17,000

2012 = 69,000

2013 = 192,000

2014 = 1,012,000

If they continue the same trend of growth in 2015, the number of users during the NFL season could be over 4 million. Realistically, the growth has to switch from exponential to linear at some point and they'll probably hit half that number, so more conservatively, about 2 million users on Fanduel coming up in 2015. However, that is just scratching the surface of the fantasy sports industry. There are an estimated 56 million fantasy sports players across all sports. Almost 20% of the adult male population. We've all seen the proliferation since the early 2000s and now fantasy football has come to dominate ESPN and popular culture to some extent.

The thing is, as sites like Fanduel and Draftkings grow and grow, they attract more and more casual users who are the kind of players that play in home-town, group of buddies season long leagues. The kind of guys who threw a couple dollars at Party Poker back in the day. More and more users means softer competition. If Fanduel breaks 2 million users this year, it will certainly be 'easier' to earn a profit than if there were a couple hundred thousand users -- I noticed this distinctly last year as compared to 2013 due to the 425% user growth during Q4.

Training camp can't get here soon enough...

Ever notice in life how often the fish that is hunting the mosquito on the surface of the water ultimately gets plucked up from the hawk in the sky?

It's a dangerous attitude for people in the DFS game right now to be thinking that soft targets are getting ready to be introduced and that they are going to fatten themselves up from it.

 

[Shutout]

The interesting part for me and the reason I made a post about this new round of financing (taking the FanDuel valuation over $1bln) is that the legality is mostly based on language in the 2006 online gambling legislation which exempted fantasy games. Certainly, at the time, no one contemplated what we have today with Fan Duel and Draft Kings, which is quite obviously a gambling enterprise by any reasonable definition of that concept. Nonetheless, KKR and others are putting real money into this, so one can assume their risk management folks are comfortable with the legal status going forward.

The reason I believe Fanduel and Draftkings enjoy a more stable position than Party Poker and Poker Stars -- soft power. The NFL has a strong lobbying arm, enjoys tax exempt status, convinces cities all across the country to publicly fund hundred million dollar stadiums as a subsidy to billionaire owners, and then blacks-out games in local markets if all the tickets don't sell. The NFL has deep roots within Congress and uses that to its favor to a much greater extent than the gaming lobby, which is more pushed around and relegated to a few select cities and sovereign Indian nations.

The NFL gave up its tax-exemption status this year and no longer have to disclose certain financial pieces of information, including the Commissioner's salary. Yes, the NFL is strong but the NFL is also one of the most image-conscious organizations there is and when the perception swings from this just being a natural residue of football to a calculated predatory money-making venture, the NFL will not sit with DFS in the same restaurant and share bread anymore.

 

[Shutout]

The interesting part for me and the reason I made a post about this new round of financing (taking the FanDuel valuation over $1bln) is that the legality is mostly based on language in the 2006 online gambling legislation which exempted fantasy games. Certainly, at the time, no one contemplated what we have today with Fan Duel and Draft Kings, which is quite obviously a gambling enterprise by any reasonable definition of that concept. Nonetheless, KKR and others are putting real money into this, so one can assume their risk management folks are comfortable with the legal status going forward.

Sometimes that is the WORST sign you can see because these "big money making companies" that know exactly how to make the BIG money also know very well how to take advantage of scenarios. We can't assume that any of these big players are comfortable long-term. It may be that they simply recognize a bubble when they see it and know they can get in, profit, and get out before it collapses.

Make no mistake, when the Federal govnt. Cyclops opens its eye on this as it becomes a little too conspicuous, things will change. Public opinion is a much more compelling force for social change than we are giving credit for here. Tobacco was a monster business with lobbyists and connections and when people said "enough", they castrated what was, 40 years ago, the equivalent of a small oil baron.

 

[Fantasysports1]

DFS is not considered gambling in law because it is stated to be a game of skill. This means that players with good skill level are able to profit over time and have a +EV.

DFS may start weekly snakes where you draft a new team every week and it only operates for that week. I would think a player who has a high skill level would be able to have a +EV here.

The money is in DFS because of the frequency and turnover a player can get if they are able to beat the rake. It is tough to do this in season long because it is only a once a year event and it requires a high entry fee. One probably has to play thousands if not tens in order to possibly make a sufficient amount in season long. 3-5 of those 300-350 leagues are not enough unless you can win the tournament.

 

[Fantasysports1]

The discussion is all over the place ITT:

-Fanduel is not in the same universe as Phenoms or other fantasy sites to go broke. If it were to pull off a fraud, it would be more similar to the accounting manipulations Enron or Worldcom than some Joe fantasy league that turns belly up because the guy blew all of the cash. You don't get investors like KKR to give you hundreds of millions of dollars if you any "random dude might steal my money risk". They certainly have tight controls even on the funds that are held in escrow, I'd imagine in some sort of money market funds to earn a return on the roughly $370 million dollars they held last year during Q4 alone -- that number could approach a "bill" during Q4 2015. Strict monetary controls are required by VC firms in exchange for their capital contributions.

-Yes, its more like a casino, and Gaming is a huge source of profits (for the casinos). The difference is, Fanduel has to run a server while Bellagio has to run a gigantic hotel with thousands of staff and tons and tons of overhead, comply with complicated gaming regulations, etc. etc.

-I don't think that Fanduel is even 1% as socially harmful as the lottery (particularly scratch offs) or gaming cities like Vegas and AC. There are sure to be compulsive gamblers who spend too much and lose more than they afford. But I don't think it's quite as predatory as those awful commercials for the lottery giving the poor a glimmer of hope if they just buy a few scratch offs because hey, 'You never know, right?'. Every bodega in NYC has a handful of working class poor who come in and throw away half their pay check every week. Hopefully even the biggest DFS fans aren't anywhere near that level.

-The DFS market is not yet saturated. It continues to see exponential growth. Take a look at Fanduel user growth by year during NFL season"

2011 = 17,000

2012 = 69,000

2013 = 192,000

2014 = 1,012,000

If they continue the same trend of growth in 2015, the number of users during the NFL season could be over 4 million. Realistically, the growth has to switch from exponential to linear at some point and they'll probably hit half that number, so more conservatively, about 2 million users on Fanduel coming up in 2015. However, that is just scratching the surface of the fantasy sports industry. There are an estimated 56 million fantasy sports players across all sports. Almost 20% of the adult male population. We've all seen the proliferation since the early 2000s and now fantasy football has come to dominate ESPN and popular culture to some extent.

The thing is, as sites like Fanduel and Draftkings grow and grow, they attract more and more casual users who are the kind of players that play in home-town, group of buddies season long leagues. The kind of guys who threw a couple dollars at Party Poker back in the day. More and more users means softer competition. If Fanduel breaks 2 million users this year, it will certainly be 'easier' to earn a profit than if there were a couple hundred thousand users -- I noticed this distinctly last year as compared to 2013 due to the 425% user growth during Q4.

Training camp can't get here soon enough...

Good overview. In addition to the growing user base, the prizes in the big tournaments continue to get bigger. I could see a tournament where the first prize is 3-5 million. Part of the goal for some skilled DFS players is to stay afloat long enough to hit a big GPP prize.

Some users were playing tens of thousands, even more in certain instances per week and even daily in the baseball and basketball seasons. If you are able to have a positive ROI long term, the theory is that you will be able to at higher buy in levels.

 

[Shutout]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/28/nfl-paying-attention-to-influence-of-high-stakes-fantasy-football-leagues/

another banana peel to come as the money involved increases.

Is it conceivable that a high stakes fantasy football player could convince an aging DB assigned to cover a guy to let the guy have an epic day? Money talks I guess.

 

[Fantasysports1]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/28/nfl-paying-attention-to-influence-of-high-stakes-fantasy-football-leagues/

another banana peel to come as the money involved increases.

Is it conceivable that a high stakes fantasy football player could convince an aging DB assigned to cover a guy to let the guy have an epic day? Money talks I guess.

If any of the pros are doing this, they should be ashamed. Can't win fairly? I just find this would be tough to coordinate unless a person does this just for one or few leagues. How much money can be on one player or a few players?

 

[burnall]

Funny a couple of years ago when this whole fanduel thing started up they where talking about it on the couch with jason wood i think, and his thoughts where the exact same as mine, Daily fantasy Pulls fantasyis stright gambling rather then a season long competition, its all about money win/loss rather the season long proccess and challange.

Dont get confused DFS is stright gambling you mise well just go throw money down on the game in vegas with a spread its the same thing!

 

[Fantasysports1]

Funny a couple of years ago when this whole fanduel thing started up they where talking about it on the couch with jason wood i think, and his thoughts where the exact same as mine, Daily fantasy Pulls fantasyis stright gambling rather then a season long competition, its all about money win/loss rather the season long proccess and challange.

Dont get confused DFS is stright gambling you mise well just go throw money down on the game in vegas with a spread its the same thing!

DFS is not considered gambling because people can win long term. Your analogy of sports betting is off too. People can beat the breakeven point of roughly 53% long term. You have to look at DFS from a long term point of view, a large enough sample size. A pro DFS player will do much better than an average player over this large sample size.

Another way to look is in high stakes football leagues. A pro player can get first or second place maybe 45% of the time but a non pro player will maybe get to that 5% of the time just due to the skill level of the managers.

 

[Fresh Prince of Bel Nor]

Funny a couple of years ago when this whole fanduel thing started up they where talking about it on the couch with jason wood i think, and his thoughts where the exact same as mine, Daily fantasy Pulls fantasyis stright gambling rather then a season long competition, its all about money win/loss rather the season long proccess and challange.

Dont get confused DFS is stright gambling you mise well just go throw money down on the game in vegas with a spread its the same thing!

It's gambling.

I could only imagine how Pete Rose feels about mlb partnering with Draftkings. I know this is another debate for another thread, but how baseball could act distance itself from Rose because betting one games is gambling, but "playing" daily games based on how individual players perform is "skill" is a joke.

Again, sorry to chime in with a someowhat off-topic take...I just despise blatant hypocrisy.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Funny a couple of years ago when this whole fanduel thing started up they where talking about it on the couch with jason wood i think, and his thoughts where the exact same as mine, Daily fantasy Pulls fantasyis stright gambling rather then a season long competition, its all about money win/loss rather the season long proccess and challange.

Dont get confused DFS is stright gambling you mise well just go throw money down on the game in vegas with a spread its the same thing!

DFS is not considered gambling because people can win long term. Your analogy of sports betting is off too. People can beat the breakeven point of roughly 53% long term. You have to look at DFS from a long term point of view, a large enough sample size. A pro DFS player will do much better than an average player over this large sample size.

Another way to look is in high stakes football leagues. A pro player can get first or second place maybe 45% of the time but a non pro player will maybe get to that 5% of the time just due to the skill level of the managers.

So poker isn't gambling? Because s pro poker player over the long run has a healthy advantage over the weekend 5/10/20 guy.

 

[davearm]

Funny a couple of years ago when this whole fanduel thing started up they where talking about it on the couch with jason wood i think, and his thoughts where the exact same as mine, Daily fantasy Pulls fantasyis stright gambling rather then a season long competition, its all about money win/loss rather the season long proccess and challange.

Dont get confused DFS is stright gambling you mise well just go throw money down on the game in vegas with a spread its the same thing!

It's gambling.

I could only imagine how Pete Rose feels about mlb partnering with Draftkings. I know this is another debate for another thread, but how baseball could act distance itself from Rose because betting one games is gambling, but "playing" daily games based on how individual players perform is "skill" is a joke.

Again, sorry to chime in with a someowhat off-topic take...I just despise blatant hypocrisy.

That's not hypocrisy at all. MLB is partnering with Draftkings to market their product to their customers in another way.

I don't know it for a fact, but I strongly suspect MLB has strict rules against MLB players participating in DF baseball games, just as they have strict rules against gambling on baseball.

If the MLB were to allow active players (or managers) to play baseball games on Draftkings, then that would be hypocritical. But that's clearly not what we have going on here.

 

[Fantasysports1]

Funny a couple of years ago when this whole fanduel thing started up they where talking about it on the couch with jason wood i think, and his thoughts where the exact same as mine, Daily fantasy Pulls fantasyis stright gambling rather then a season long competition, its all about money win/loss rather the season long proccess and challange.

Dont get confused DFS is stright gambling you mise well just go throw money down on the game in vegas with a spread its the same thing!

DFS is not considered gambling because people can win long term. Your analogy of sports betting is off too. People can beat the breakeven point of roughly 53% long term. You have to look at DFS from a long term point of view, a large enough sample size. A pro DFS player will do much better than an average player over this large sample size.

Another way to look is in high stakes football leagues. A pro player can get first or second place maybe 45% of the time but a non pro player will maybe get to that 5% of the time just due to the skill level of the managers.

So poker isn't gambling? Because s pro poker player over the long run has a healthy advantage over the weekend 5/10/20 guy.

The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006, entering contests for real money where the outcome is predominately determined by statistics of individuals in more than one event is NOT a wager.

Same can be said for table games, why are they legal when they are clearly games of chance. You cannot skill craps.

Sports betting is illegal because of the specific definition written by Bill Bradley, probably because it is considered a game of luck and not skill.

My response to the person saying fantasy sports is gambling is that I believe the person thinks it is pure luck which is not the case.

 

[Marauder]

Funny a couple of years ago when this whole fanduel thing started up they where talking about it on the couch with jason wood i think, and his thoughts where the exact same as mine, Daily fantasy Pulls fantasyis stright gambling rather then a season long competition, its all about money win/loss rather the season long proccess and challange.

Dont get confused DFS is stright gambling you mise well just go throw money down on the game in vegas with a spread its the same thing!

DFS is not considered gambling because people can win long term. Your analogy of sports betting is off too. People can beat the breakeven point of roughly 53% long term. You have to look at DFS from a long term point of view, a large enough sample size. A pro DFS player will do much better than an average player over this large sample size.

Another way to look is in high stakes football leagues. A pro player can get first or second place maybe 45% of the time but a non pro player will maybe get to that 5% of the time just due to the skill level of the managers.

So poker isn't gambling? Because s pro poker player over the long run has a healthy advantage over the weekend 5/10/20 guy.

The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006, entering contests for real money where the outcome is predominately determined by statistics of individuals in more than one event is NOT a wager.

Same can be said for table games, why are they legal when they are clearly games of chance. You cannot skill craps.

Sports betting is illegal because of the specific definition written by Bill Bradley, probably because it is considered a game of luck and not skill.

My response to the person saying fantasy sports is gambling is that I believe the person thinks it is pure luck which is not the case.

I don't think anybody on this forum thinks DFS is pure luck, just like we know that Poker is not pure luck and sports betting is not pure luck. All three have an element of luck and an element of skill.

The UIGEA carved out the exemption for fantasy sports because they knew they could not get the bill passed if it outlawed all the thousands of local fantasy sports leagues around the country. They never envisioned that exemption would open the door for a new industry (DFS). It's a pretty good bet that if they had known that, they never would have included that exemption.

Just as an aside, One big reason for the big spike in DFS traffic over the last few years is that a large percentage (probably a majority) of the professional DFS players today are former professional online poker players who migrated over to DFS after black friday.

 

[Stealthycat]

and I don't understand why I'm still seriously behind in funds.

seriously?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Fanduel announced today a $275m round which now values the company at over $1bln. That's pretty amazing. Sophisticated investors KKR, Google capital, Time Warner, Disney, - none of them apparently have any concern this is an online gambling endeavor.

Disney (ESPN) backed out of investing in DraftKings for just that reason. It was not worried about legality, apparently, but about image. DFS is an adult activity, and not entirely consistent with Disney's branding.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Right, and the reason is partly because FBG generates a massive user base of paying customers and then shamelessly 'sells' them to a gambling site to make a little extra profit.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this, but we've never sold (or otherwise shared) our email list or subscriber list with any outside party. (Privacy policy.)

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

The interesting part for me and the reason I made a post about this new round of financing (taking the FanDuel valuation over $1bln) is that the legality is mostly based on language in the 2006 online gambling legislation which exempted fantasy games. Certainly, at the time, no one contemplated what we have today with Fan Duel and Draft Kings, which is quite obviously a gambling enterprise by any reasonable definition of that concept. Nonetheless, KKR and others are putting real money into this, so one can assume their risk management folks are comfortable with the legal status going forward.

The reason I believe Fanduel and Draftkings enjoy a more stable position than Party Poker and Poker Stars -- soft power. The NFL has a strong lobbying arm, enjoys tax exempt status, convinces cities all across the country to publicly fund hundred million dollar stadiums as a subsidy to billionaire owners, and then blacks-out games in local markets if all the tickets don't sell. The NFL has deep roots within Congress and uses that to its favor to a much greater extent than the gaming lobby, which is more pushed around and relegated to a few select cities and sovereign Indian nations.

I think this is exactly right. The big online poker companies made a mistake by not giving money to politicians. DFS sites are not making the same mistake. To be sure, FanDuel and DraftKings do not do much (or, I believe, any) lobbying themselves. But they are partnering with powerful entities like the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL ... and those entities do give lots of money to politicians.

I believe, for that reason, that legal DFS is here to stay.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

I haven't played any DFS nor do I plan on it. Now that the two major DFS websites have allowed players to submit multiple lineups via scripts (bots/computers that are programmed to come up with optimal lineups)--I think it's basically becoming less and less likely that the "casual" fantasy player can be successful. The big money is in the tournaments where these computers are scripting multiple optimal lineups. Realistically speaking--for the casual fan to win a tournament--he/she almost has to submit lineups with guys that nobody else is using--and hope those players defy the odds and have explosive games. He/She has to zig when everybody else is zagging and hope that luck is on their side. This no longer makes it a game of skill--but a game of luck in my opinion.

 

[Shutout]

Funny a couple of years ago when this whole fanduel thing started up they where talking about it on the couch with jason wood i think, and his thoughts where the exact same as mine, Daily fantasy Pulls fantasyis stright gambling rather then a season long competition, its all about money win/loss rather the season long proccess and challange.

Dont get confused DFS is stright gambling you mise well just go throw money down on the game in vegas with a spread its the same thing!

It's gambling.

I could only imagine how Pete Rose feels about mlb partnering with Draftkings. I know this is another debate for another thread, but how baseball could act distance itself from Rose because betting one games is gambling, but "playing" daily games based on how individual players perform is "skill" is a joke.

Again, sorry to chime in with a someowhat off-topic take...I just despise blatant hypocrisy.

That's not hypocrisy at all. MLB is partnering with Draftkings to market their product to their customers in another way.

I don't know it for a fact, but I strongly suspect MLB has strict rules against MLB players participating in DF baseball games, just as they have strict rules against gambling on baseball.

If the MLB were to allow active players (or managers) to play baseball games on Draftkings, then that would be hypocritical. But that's clearly not what we have going on here.

By saying this, aren't you basically saying that you (and possibly MLB) see the two things as similar enough to classify them as the same type of activity? If gambling is wrong by players and playing DFS is wrong by players, then doesn't Gambling=DFS at least on enough of a level to make it not pass the eyeball test?

 

[Shutout]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/28/nfl-paying-attention-to-influence-of-high-stakes-fantasy-football-leagues/

another banana peel to come as the money involved increases.

Is it conceivable that a high stakes fantasy football player could convince an aging DB assigned to cover a guy to let the guy have an epic day? Money talks I guess.

If any of the pros are doing this, they should be ashamed. Can't win fairly? I just find this would be tough to coordinate unless a person does this just for one or few leagues. How much money can be on one player or a few players?

You know, I hadn't considered it until yesterday but, yeah, I CAN see this being possible.

If you are talking about a seriously heavy presence in gambling who specifically chooses to target a performance, then what better venue is there than a late-season, non-playoff impacting performance where all the regulars aren't playing anyway? It is less under the microscope because of these reasons and would make it easier to convince the player who colludes to buy into.

Now take that thought and think back, doesn't it seem that it DOES happen fairly often that some random Week 17 game has some no-name guy have a day he will never have again, possibly, and then we never see that again? I know as a FF guy, there have been more than one obscure TE/WR/RB that found his way playing late season who ended up with a 7/140/2 line and usurped my ff title. Jerrell Jernigan, 2013-Week 17: 6/90/1 plus a rushing TD. ??? Eric Decker and Michael Floyd both topping 30+ last year in the finale after both looking nothing more than pedestrian for half the season.

It's genius if this kind of stuff actually happens because you could have a guy put HUGE HUGE money on a late season individual performance or game-the kind of money that would dwarf what most people would grind out over an entire season or a massive tourney-and once that fix is set, then who is going to question the "potential" of a guy like Decker or Floyd having a huge game against a "banged up secondary" where some no name or aging Corner "slips" or "has a "couple" of bad plays?

I'm on the UFO conspiracy theory train on this one.

 

[karmarooster]

I haven't played any DFS nor do I plan on it. Now that the two major DFS websites have allowed players to submit multiple lineups via scripts (bots/computers that are programmed to come up with optimal lineups)--I think it's basically becoming less and less likely that the "casual" fantasy player can be successful. The big money is in the tournaments where these computers are scripting multiple optimal lineups. Realistically speaking--for the casual fan to win a tournament--he/she almost has to submit lineups with guys that nobody else is using--and hope those players defy the odds and have explosive games. He/She has to zig when everybody else is zagging and hope that luck is on their side. This no longer makes it a game of skill--but a game of luck in my opinion.

That is concerning, but there were already a handful of players (Condia, Lucor, etc) who were entered in literally every single contest above $5 (makes no sense for them to play lower dollars if they can only enter 1000 games per week). There was a simple solution - only play $1 and $2 games. If scripts allow that sort of pervasive/spamming of entries at lower dollar levels by the next Condia wanna-be, but at a lower dollar level , it could be a concern but only if they are actually submitting good lineups.

However, that trend is going to account for only a very small percentage of the total volume of small dollar games during the NFL season. Again, there are expected to be well over 1 million unique, active users during Q4 2015, as they broke that mark last year. That number should be 150-400% this season based on 3 years of past growth. Conservatively, 2-2.5 million users during football season alone. Realistically, how are going to be running these scripts with algorithms etc., 25,000? That's a gross over-estimate but still just 1% of of 2.5 million.

 

[Fantasysports1]

On DK you can mass enter lineups by clicking the checkmark instead of having to enter a lu one at a day on FD.

There is a limit of 500 or so entries on the main sites. It has gotten to a point where if a person is EV + they can sit at every table. The reason is these guys are trying to get as much money down in the cash games because they believe the more they put up the more they make over time.

 

[habsfan]

Funny a couple of years ago when this whole fanduel thing started up they where talking about it on the couch with jason wood i think, and his thoughts where the exact same as mine, Daily fantasy Pulls fantasyis stright gambling rather then a season long competition, its all about money win/loss rather the season long proccess and challange.

Dont get confused DFS is stright gambling you mise well just go throw money down on the game in vegas with a spread its the same thing!

It's gambling.

I could only imagine how Pete Rose feels about mlb partnering with Draftkings. I know this is another debate for another thread, but how baseball could act distance itself from Rose because betting one games is gambling, but "playing" daily games based on how individual players perform is "skill" is a joke.

Again, sorry to chime in with a someowhat off-topic take...I just despise blatant hypocrisy.

That's not hypocrisy at all. MLB is partnering with Draftkings to market their product to their customers in another way.

I don't know it for a fact, but I strongly suspect MLB has strict rules against MLB players participating in DF baseball games, just as they have strict rules against gambling on baseball.

If the MLB were to allow active players (or managers) to play baseball games on Draftkings, then that would be hypocritical. But that's clearly not what we have going on here.

By saying this, aren't you basically saying that you (and possibly MLB) see the two things as similar enough to classify them as the same type of activity? If gambling is wrong by players and playing DFS is wrong by players, then doesn't Gambling=DFS at least on enough of a level to make it not pass the eyeball test?

I don't think it makes them the same type of activity. I think it just means they are both activities that set up potential conflicts of interest.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

By saying this, aren't you basically saying that you (and possibly MLB) see the two things as similar enough to classify them as the same type of activity? If gambling is wrong by players and playing DFS is wrong by players, then doesn't Gambling=DFS at least on enough of a level to make it not pass the eyeball test?

Taking steroids is wrong by players, intentional fouls are wrong by players ... that doesn't mean those things are gambling. (I'm not saying that DFS isn't gambling; I'm just saying that that particular argument proves too much.)

 

[Shutout]

By saying this, aren't you basically saying that you (and possibly MLB) see the two things as similar enough to classify them as the same type of activity? If gambling is wrong by players and playing DFS is wrong by players, then doesn't Gambling=DFS at least on enough of a level to make it not pass the eyeball test?

Taking steroids is wrong by players, intentional fouls are wrong by players ... that doesn't mean those things are gambling. (I'm not saying that DFS isn't gambling; I'm just saying that that particular argument proves too much.)

Obviously, if we say hit and run is wrong and armed robbery is wrong it doesn't make it the same thing but I thought those of us posting were able to infer from the discussion what we were getting at without writing a manual.

Explicitly, MLB has historically taking a hard line on players betting on the game they play in. If they (as the poster guessed probably exists) take a similar stance on an activity that the casual observer typically finds as fungible without being cited the 2006 law regarding it, then it stands to reason that they either, literally or perceptionally, find it similar enough as to be reason to address is. The MLB doesn't have a rule about allowing people to chew bubble gum at the stadium. They do have one about allowing fire arms in the stadium. One doesn't exist because it is not a concern. The other does because it is. IF (as the poster says) there is something addressing DFS, it at least illustrates that decision makers recognize actual or potential issues.

 

[Shutout]

I haven't played any DFS nor do I plan on it. Now that the two major DFS websites have allowed players to submit multiple lineups via scripts (bots/computers that are programmed to come up with optimal lineups)--I think it's basically becoming less and less likely that the "casual" fantasy player can be successful. The big money is in the tournaments where these computers are scripting multiple optimal lineups. Realistically speaking--for the casual fan to win a tournament--he/she almost has to submit lineups with guys that nobody else is using--and hope those players defy the odds and have explosive games. He/She has to zig when everybody else is zagging and hope that luck is on their side. This no longer makes it a game of skill--but a game of luck in my opinion.

That is concerning, but there were already a handful of players (Condia, Lucor, etc) who were entered in literally every single contest above $5 (makes no sense for them to play lower dollars if they can only enter 1000 games per week). There was a simple solution - only play $1 and $2 games. If scripts allow that sort of pervasive/spamming of entries at lower dollar levels by the next Condia wanna-be, but at a lower dollar level , it could be a concern but only if they are actually submitting good lineups.

However, that trend is going to account for only a very small percentage of the total volume of small dollar games during the NFL season. Again, there are expected to be well over 1 million unique, active users during Q4 2015, as they broke that mark last year. That number should be 150-400% this season based on 3 years of past growth. Conservatively, 2-2.5 million users during football season alone. Realistically, how are going to be running these scripts with algorithms etc., 25,000? That's a gross over-estimate but still just 1% of of 2.5 million.

I'm asking (I don't know...just trying to understand) if someone did go through the effort to script on low-level games, wouldn't it be fair to assume that this person is probably going to be going for a niche and will likely be pretty good at it, in relation to the "low level, casual players"? What other motivation would there be to put that level of effort into it to skim the bottom unless the sheer volume of it allowed for a decent enough profit?

IF that is the case, that is probably more concerning to me than anything because I can go to a casino and know which tables have the high rollers and I know where to avoid. But if the DFS arena is saturated to this extreme (people scripting $1/2/5 games), then a casual gamer with limited skills has no business being there. It's like World of Warcraft at that point. It doesn't matter if you boast 50 Million subscribers online at any given time, if you are the level 25 in a dungeon full of LVL 75s, you don't belong.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

I haven't played any DFS nor do I plan on it. Now that the two major DFS websites have allowed players to submit multiple lineups via scripts (bots/computers that are programmed to come up with optimal lineups)--I think it's basically becoming less and less likely that the "casual" fantasy player can be successful. The big money is in the tournaments where these computers are scripting multiple optimal lineups. Realistically speaking--for the casual fan to win a tournament--he/she almost has to submit lineups with guys that nobody else is using--and hope those players defy the odds and have explosive games. He/She has to zig when everybody else is zagging and hope that luck is on their side. This no longer makes it a game of skill--but a game of luck in my opinion.

That is concerning, but there were already a handful of players (Condia, Lucor, etc) who were entered in literally every single contest above $5 (makes no sense for them to play lower dollars if they can only enter 1000 games per week). There was a simple solution - only play $1 and $2 games. If scripts allow that sort of pervasive/spamming of entries at lower dollar levels by the next Condia wanna-be, but at a lower dollar level , it could be a concern but only if they are actually submitting good lineups.

However, that trend is going to account for only a very small percentage of the total volume of small dollar games during the NFL season. Again, there are expected to be well over 1 million unique, active users during Q4 2015, as they broke that mark last year. That number should be 150-400% this season based on 3 years of past growth. Conservatively, 2-2.5 million users during football season alone. Realistically, how are going to be running these scripts with algorithms etc., 25,000? That's a gross over-estimate but still just 1% of of 2.5 million.

I'm asking (I don't know...just trying to understand) if someone did go through the effort to script on low-level games, wouldn't it be fair to assume that this person is probably going to be going for a niche and will likely be pretty good at it, in relation to the "low level, casual players"? What other motivation would there be to put that level of effort into it to skim the bottom unless the sheer volume of it allowed for a decent enough profit?IF that is the case, that is probably more concerning to me than anything because I can go to a casino and know which tables have the high rollers and I know where to avoid. But if the DFS arena is saturated to this extreme (people scripting $1/2/5 games), then a casual gamer with limited skills has no business being there. It's like World of Warcraft at that point. It doesn't matter if you boast 50 Million subscribers online at any given time, if you are the level 25 in a dungeon full of LVL 75s, you don't belong.

This is just my opinion--but I personally think that the scripting will eventually find its way into all levels of DFS. Now that the two main sites are allowing scripting--what is there to stop programmers from "selling" their scripting services to other users? Basically speaking---if the people who script see that there is a healthy number of casual daily players in very low dollar tournaments--they will follow. The casual fans are like the plankton to the scripting whales. At this point in time, I wouldn't recommend that any casual fantasy player participate in DFS until these companies actually create and enforce rules that protect them from this uneven playing field.

 

[Spin]

I haven't played any DFS nor do I plan on it. Now that the two major DFS websites have allowed players to submit multiple lineups via scripts (bots/computers that are programmed to come up with optimal lineups)--I think it's basically becoming less and less likely that the "casual" fantasy player can be successful. The big money is in the tournaments where these computers are scripting multiple optimal lineups. Realistically speaking--for the casual fan to win a tournament--he/she almost has to submit lineups with guys that nobody else is using--and hope those players defy the odds and have explosive games. He/She has to zig when everybody else is zagging and hope that luck is on their side. This no longer makes it a game of skill--but a game of luck in my opinion.

That is concerning, but there were already a handful of players (Condia, Lucor, etc) who were entered in literally every single contest above $5 (makes no sense for them to play lower dollars if they can only enter 1000 games per week). There was a simple solution - only play $1 and $2 games. If scripts allow that sort of pervasive/spamming of entries at lower dollar levels by the next Condia wanna-be, but at a lower dollar level , it could be a concern but only if they are actually submitting good lineups.

However, that trend is going to account for only a very small percentage of the total volume of small dollar games during the NFL season. Again, there are expected to be well over 1 million unique, active users during Q4 2015, as they broke that mark last year. That number should be 150-400% this season based on 3 years of past growth. Conservatively, 2-2.5 million users during football season alone. Realistically, how are going to be running these scripts with algorithms etc., 25,000? That's a gross over-estimate but still just 1% of of 2.5 million.

I'm asking (I don't know...just trying to understand) if someone did go through the effort to script on low-level games, wouldn't it be fair to assume that this person is probably going to be going for a niche and will likely be pretty good at it, in relation to the "low level, casual players"? What other motivation would there be to put that level of effort into it to skim the bottom unless the sheer volume of it allowed for a decent enough profit?

IF that is the case, that is probably more concerning to me than anything because I can go to a casino and know which tables have the high rollers and I know where to avoid. But if the DFS arena is saturated to this extreme (people scripting $1/2/5 games), then a casual gamer with limited skills has no business being there. It's like World of Warcraft at that point. It doesn't matter if you boast 50 Million subscribers online at any given time, if you are the level 25 in a dungeon full of LVL 75s, you don't belong.

Isn't that essentially what Dodd's strategy is? Just play in a ton of $1/2/5 games, with 3 lineups spread throughout?

 

[Shutout]

I haven't played any DFS nor do I plan on it. Now that the two major DFS websites have allowed players to submit multiple lineups via scripts (bots/computers that are programmed to come up with optimal lineups)--I think it's basically becoming less and less likely that the "casual" fantasy player can be successful. The big money is in the tournaments where these computers are scripting multiple optimal lineups. Realistically speaking--for the casual fan to win a tournament--he/she almost has to submit lineups with guys that nobody else is using--and hope those players defy the odds and have explosive games. He/She has to zig when everybody else is zagging and hope that luck is on their side. This no longer makes it a game of skill--but a game of luck in my opinion.

That is concerning, but there were already a handful of players (Condia, Lucor, etc) who were entered in literally every single contest above $5 (makes no sense for them to play lower dollars if they can only enter 1000 games per week). There was a simple solution - only play $1 and $2 games. If scripts allow that sort of pervasive/spamming of entries at lower dollar levels by the next Condia wanna-be, but at a lower dollar level , it could be a concern but only if they are actually submitting good lineups.

However, that trend is going to account for only a very small percentage of the total volume of small dollar games during the NFL season. Again, there are expected to be well over 1 million unique, active users during Q4 2015, as they broke that mark last year. That number should be 150-400% this season based on 3 years of past growth. Conservatively, 2-2.5 million users during football season alone. Realistically, how are going to be running these scripts with algorithms etc., 25,000? That's a gross over-estimate but still just 1% of of 2.5 million.

I'm asking (I don't know...just trying to understand) if someone did go through the effort to script on low-level games, wouldn't it be fair to assume that this person is probably going to be going for a niche and will likely be pretty good at it, in relation to the "low level, casual players"? What other motivation would there be to put that level of effort into it to skim the bottom unless the sheer volume of it allowed for a decent enough profit?

IF that is the case, that is probably more concerning to me than anything because I can go to a casino and know which tables have the high rollers and I know where to avoid. But if the DFS arena is saturated to this extreme (people scripting $1/2/5 games), then a casual gamer with limited skills has no business being there. It's like World of Warcraft at that point. It doesn't matter if you boast 50 Million subscribers online at any given time, if you are the level 25 in a dungeon full of LVL 75s, you don't belong.

Isn't that essentially what Dodd's strategy is? Just play in a ton of $1/2/5 games, with 3 lineups spread throughout?

Don't know. I haven't played in DFS for a few reasons. I'm really just learning from what you guys are posting in threads like these.

 

[Warrior]

The robots are smarter than I am. I have no business trying to win in DFS...it's a fool's errand.

Season-long leagues, however...I think I'm at the top of that mountain. Good thing season-long legues are so much more fun and interesting anyway.

Good luck against those bots.

 

[(HULK)]

Just so I know, which 2 major sites are allowing scripting bots?

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Just so I know, which 2 major sites are allowing scripting bots?

Fanduel and Draft Kings are both allowing them at this time. I'm not sure of nor am I aware of any other relevant DFS sites. If there are smaller ones--I'd check their rules about scripting before playing.