Most definitely not. But I’d say most would like to increase their bottom line.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Do You Believe That The Modern "Tipping" Culture Has Gone Completely Out Of Control? (1/30) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter GordonGekko
- Start date
The disease is greed. The symptom here is a tipping culture. The ridiculous prices you are paying is not being shared adequately with the person doing the work. An owner and/or shareholders are reaping the benefits of some else’s work.
There are many symptoms beyond tipping, and the common man is being asked to carry the weight of those to blame, who have the most means to fix the problem.
Those with no capital bare(bear?) the expense of capitalism. Sorry for rant.
Full disclosure, I live off tips and do very well.
There are many symptoms beyond tipping, and the common man is being asked to carry the weight of those to blame, who have the most means to fix the problem.
Those with no capital bare(bear?) the expense of capitalism. Sorry for rant.
Full disclosure, I live off tips and do very well.
A lot of people who can’t afford to live. Also a lack of people providing those services.
culdeus
Footballguy
On an economic level? Would restaurants close before offering a raise?
Obviously just a guess, but my guess is large chains yes. Capitalists would invest their capital elsewhere.
Hopefully mom and pops could thrive.
massraider
Footballguy
One day? Nothing. But let's say all Americans decide they are over ALL tipping.
Most servers would take a pay cut, and more would migrate from the job. There would be a lot more real estate agents out there, bet on that.
Restaurants might change their model: order from your phone, runner brings it. Three people working front of house, 100 seat restaurant. You have a question about the menu? Google it, beeyotch.
They already have these food halls set up, they make sense.
The high end restaurants would be interesting. That staff can/should make 6 figures. Do those places raise salaries? I dunno, but not worried about that. The 1% restaurants have found out they literally cannot charge too much, so they can adjust whatever they need
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I know a few restaurant owners (none are chains) and they aren't exactly rolling in cash. Margins are often quite thin there.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Why isn't this the case in Europe?
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
you know what I meant
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Yes
Todem
Footballguy
This right here.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
This is just a guess. I assume because there are not many 200 seat restaurants. And rent isn’t $100+/square foot
most of the restaurant I’ve been To in Europe, the owner was working. Often with his family.
massraider
Footballguy
I think there's many differences, and I don't agree with the idea that service is the same in Europe. You go to a Chili's in Arkansas, or a pub in London, you get better service in Arkansas. Europe is lot of countries, and something that applies in London isn't true in Paris, or Vienna. I am not dismissing what you are saying, there are definitely places with fine service, and no tipping.
I can only speak about London in terms of how people are getting paid. And at the high end restaurants, they have 12-15% service charge at almost all of them, and people tip on top of that. That was true 5 years ago, I am sure majority of Americans think no tipping in England, and that is simply not true. Many places in Europe are trending in that direction, and at good restaurants, you are paying extra for service. And have been for a while.
Todem
Footballguy
I think the thread is going off the rails a bit. I don’t think many of us have a hard time with tipping. I think the definition of what deserves a tip is getting lost in translation.
There are certain industries we all know are built on tipping income for their service. It’s the industries that never were in the past where things are getting kinda ridiculous.
There are certain industries we all know are built on tipping income for their service. It’s the industries that never were in the past where things are getting kinda ridiculous.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
I tip well--I always have. My wife is a very frugal tipper. However, I agree that the "expectation" of tipping has sort of gotten out of control. I just got a sandwich from Schlotsky's and it has a tipping option now. I gave the staff $2.00 on a $25.00 bill because why not? They were just a bunch of college kids having fun.
I am really pleasantly surprised at how much money my daughter is making. She is 18 and started at Applebees a couple weeks ago doing the car-side service. She works really hard. She has to take the phone orders, run the pass and assemble the food in the bags and then bring the food out. She also has to make sure all the delivery company's drivers get their food as well. She gets like $14.00 as an hourly wage and usually comes home nightly with anywhere from $50-$100 in cash tips--this doesn't count the credit card tips. She gets her first paycheck here and it is going to be massive for a teenager with basically her first job. She is killing it because she is a very outgoing, friendly person. She also makes extra because there are no busboys there and so if there is a lull, she will go and help clean tables and the waitstaff will throw her money for that.
She is saving money for a car and college, so this is just a perfect job.
I am really pleasantly surprised at how much money my daughter is making. She is 18 and started at Applebees a couple weeks ago doing the car-side service. She works really hard. She has to take the phone orders, run the pass and assemble the food in the bags and then bring the food out. She also has to make sure all the delivery company's drivers get their food as well. She gets like $14.00 as an hourly wage and usually comes home nightly with anywhere from $50-$100 in cash tips--this doesn't count the credit card tips. She gets her first paycheck here and it is going to be massive for a teenager with basically her first job. She is killing it because she is a very outgoing, friendly person. She also makes extra because there are no busboys there and so if there is a lull, she will go and help clean tables and the waitstaff will throw her money for that.
She is saving money for a car and college, so this is just a perfect job.
dkp993
Footballguy
I’ve said this a dozen times in this thread 80’s, yet somehow owners are always the evil ones.
How easily it is people ignore the million or $2 million in capital loans people need to start these businesses then get pissed that they are ”letting someone else do all the work”. If it was so easy, you should just go ahead and do it.
massraider
Footballguy
I didn't know this was a thing. That's killer. Is there a paper hat and roller skates? That would kill
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
This is true of most businesses though. Starting a business is difficult and expensive. Maybe if a company isn't popular enough to operate without being able to pay its workforce sweatshop wages, it's not a company that has enough demand for its product to exist. And that's not my quote...
It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.
--Franklin Delano Roosevelt
We built an entire post-depression economy around that quote. I'm not really sure why somehow the restaurant industry alone was exempted from it.
I agree with most that the real problem here is "tip creep" where tipping is sliding into a bunch of areas it didn't used to be and probably doesn't have a place. I actually don't have that much of a problem w/ restaurant tipping, as that is pretty ingrained. But it's just interesting to think about and how much of our acceptance of it is just because it's the way it's been all our lives. I can't imagine people would think it made sense if it had never existed before and someone was proposing now that one random industry should be exempted from wage laws and essentially get half of their labor for free while patrons are expected to pay them instead, directly.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah I have no issue with the current tipping structure at restaurants. I enjoy “overtipping”. I’m just a teacher, but I’m doing well financially and it’s nice to be able to try and share some money with others who may not be in such a sound spot. Anyone that followed my posts when we had the political forum knows I’m no friend of Corporate America or “big business” but I think most restaurant owners aren’t the bogeyman we should be coming for.
dkp993
Footballguy
If minimum wage is “sweatshop” wages then we‘re in real trouble as a country.
Federal minimum is $7.25/ hr, yes many states are higher, but that's pretty much sweatshop.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Don't servers make like $2.13 an hour? That's what I'm referring to. Restaurants claim the only way they can operate is if they pay their wait staff $2/hr and customers pay the majority of their wages via tips. Yet FDR was pretty clear that if your business can't afford to pay minimum wage and still operate, then your business deserves to die. Every business operates within that threshold, except restaurants for some weird reason.
dkp993
Footballguy
In a few states they do, but don’t. The tips are added in and if they don’t make enough tips to earn minimum wage the employer covers the difference ensuring they do. So the “reason“ is tips. Other states pay the min (typically state min not fed) regardless
As mentioned upstream, the typical expectation for Servers is to make $100-200 a shift, for an 8 hrs shift (and not all are 8) that’s 12.50 to 25 per hour. Bartenders at the bar I ran expected the tip pool to be 40+ an hour and were often pissed when it was 30. That’s on top of making California minimum wage (which is now 15.50).
Last edited:
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
You live in SoCal right? Do you honestly think that $15.50/hour is a “living wage”.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
In general, I make it a point to be generous to people who work in customer service jobs. Even in counter service—(like if I go to Subway)—I’ll tip a buck or two. With that said—I generally will do my tips in cash—(even if I order on the app—when I pick up—I’ll put money in the tip jar, or just give it to the workers directly). I managed a retail business for over 20 years and worked there for 9 years prior to becoming a manager—and I can tell you firsthand that dealing with the public is not easy and for the most part is a thankless job. Over the past few years—it has gotten horribly bad—as people have gotten more confrontational and narcissistic. Ask any person that has to deal with dozens or hundreds of customers every day—there isn’t a day when you don’t get talked down on, aren’t the target of snarky comments or complaints, and on more rare occasions even get threatened. A lot of people who have corporate jobs in an office environment, or that are lucky enough to work from home cannot fathom what people who deal with the public have to deal with. Many of them work at jobs that have massive HR departments where any comment made to you at the workplace that can arguably be viewed as being slightly insulting or degrading can be reported and some protections are provided. Customer service employees are allowed to be insulted and spoken down to by customers—and it’s considered to be “part of the job”. So by nature—their jobs are low paying, they generally are doing a big portion of the work that is necessary for the business to survive, they are open targets to be insulted and talked down to while on the job—and people would rather that the business just raise it’s prices instead of directly helping this class of worker?
I can’t speak for everybody—but I generally prefer good customer service from nice/capable workers. By being cheap with tipping—you are just disincentivizing good capable workers from entering the world of customer service. We are in a market place right now where capable people can go and get jobs that do not require that they deal with ire of the public for a decent amount of money. If you want to be in a world where customer service is solid—you have to incentivize capable people into taking those jobs—and a monetary incentive through tipping is one of the best ways to do that. You cannot fully trust that their employers will compensate them properly as the interests of the employers generally do not align with the interest of their customer service employees. An employer wants to maximize their own profits. If they raise prices 10% across the board under the guise that the price increase was a direct “built in“ gratuity for it’s customer service employees—I guarantee you that the employees only get a fraction of that increase. There is a reason why customer service in general sucks these days. These workers have to deal with a public that is filled with angry, unpleasant, and unpleasable people, employers that are out for their own interests—all while getting paid relatively little even though they do a lion share of the work that is required to keep the business running. I not only tip—but I also make it a point to thank and acknowledge customer service employees for their assistance. Anytime I tip and they say “thank you“—I generally respond by saying “no—thank you—I’ve worked for customer service for many years and I know the kinds of things you have to deal with”. I promise you that in a world of bad customer service—I personally routinely get amazing customer service where I go because of that. Even the most disgruntled, unskilled worker will work their hardest and do their best for you when you acknowledge that what they do is hard and show them respect through a small tip.
I can’t speak for everybody—but I generally prefer good customer service from nice/capable workers. By being cheap with tipping—you are just disincentivizing good capable workers from entering the world of customer service. We are in a market place right now where capable people can go and get jobs that do not require that they deal with ire of the public for a decent amount of money. If you want to be in a world where customer service is solid—you have to incentivize capable people into taking those jobs—and a monetary incentive through tipping is one of the best ways to do that. You cannot fully trust that their employers will compensate them properly as the interests of the employers generally do not align with the interest of their customer service employees. An employer wants to maximize their own profits. If they raise prices 10% across the board under the guise that the price increase was a direct “built in“ gratuity for it’s customer service employees—I guarantee you that the employees only get a fraction of that increase. There is a reason why customer service in general sucks these days. These workers have to deal with a public that is filled with angry, unpleasant, and unpleasable people, employers that are out for their own interests—all while getting paid relatively little even though they do a lion share of the work that is required to keep the business running. I not only tip—but I also make it a point to thank and acknowledge customer service employees for their assistance. Anytime I tip and they say “thank you“—I generally respond by saying “no—thank you—I’ve worked for customer service for many years and I know the kinds of things you have to deal with”. I promise you that in a world of bad customer service—I personally routinely get amazing customer service where I go because of that. Even the most disgruntled, unskilled worker will work their hardest and do their best for you when you acknowledge that what they do is hard and show them respect through a small tip.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I think restaurants are generally considered the worst business investment one can make. People usually open them because they love food,entertaining, people or the cache it comes with and not because they expect to make a lot of money.
I’ll be honest that I don’t get the door dash and Instacart stuff. I love my Amazon deliveries but those are mainly things I can’t get elsewhere. I’ll do drive up at Target, but grocery stores and fast food type places are always close and easy to drive to and do your own shopping. Pizza delivery is fine but that was already in place and the drivers work there. I’ve used DoorDash/GrubHub before when traveling and I didn’t have a car but it was way too expensive to not do when expensing. It boggles my kind paying $20 with up for McDonald’s or Chick-fil-a.
The guilt tipping has gotten out of control as well. TBH, it makes me want to do way more cooking at home and that’s not easy with two in HS sports and both working. Going out or even picking up is so damn expensive now. For something like Five Guys, I could get us 4 filet mignon at Costco (maybe not the prime).
Doug B
Footballguy
No doubt about the bolded. Regarding tipping: do you draw a line between "dealing with the public in food service" and "dealing with the public in retail"?
Zow
Footballguy
Pretty much where I’m at. I’m a standard tipper (about 18% - unless the service is truly terrible or I’m at a cheap diner type place and my bill is like ten bucks or whatever and I’ll tip at least $5), generally don’t take issue with tipping, and understood that during Covid this was still appropriate for takeout. But, now, it seems like this is expected and that automated payment systems default to 18% or whatever.
Not sure that I agree that it’s “out of control” but I do see some difference before and after Covid regarding what’s expected.
For me personally I’d prefer an across the board standard built in fee so it eliminates any uncertainty and thought for somebody like me, but I can see how that isn’t preferred by the servers who want the chance to get more.
Zow
Footballguy
This post is timely. Last night we ordered Papa John’s delivery for the kids and the babysitter directly from papa John’s. Papa John’s then subcontracted a Door Dash delivery driver. Had never seen that before.
dkp993
Footballguy
Of course not. But sweatshop its not and for a tip based job it’s fine.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Never said it wasn’t fine for a tipped employee. You live where the min wage is 15.50 and while not “sweatshop” wages, it’s not enough to have much of a life in SoCal. Same with places where the min wage is half that.
dkp993
Footballguy
Again, I agree. I said upstream that minimum wage was fine for a teenager living at home working their first job but for a single mother supporting their kids It’s not. I’m not defending the merits in minimum wage, it’s a complex issue. But I was merely pushing back against the sweatshop hyperbole and the notion that if you’re paying your people minimum wage your business shouldn’t exist.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
I got a soda at the movie theater last night……$6.50. They are self service fountains. He handed me an empty cup and lid and the tip screen came up when paying With 20%….$1.30 pre filled in. Had to manually drop it down to nothing before hitting accept.
Perfect example of "out of control"
foxco
Footballguy
That cop shouldn't be expecting more than 10% from me. Take that!
dkp993
Footballguy
Simply nuts.
dkp993
Footballguy
I’d happily pay a tip to not get a ticket.
I think the tip would be for not getting the crap beaten out of you.I’d happily pay a tip to not get a ticket.
Interesting. I usually pick up from dominos and they still deliver themselves. I like getting my pizzas right when they come out of the oven and get them home immediately. It also saves money. That said, highly recommend an outdoor pizza oven. I got one on Amazon for Christmas and it’s really nice. My 15 year old loves making them with me. He tried to recreate one specialty pizza at a restaurant and did pretty damn well. My white pizza (pesto, ricotta, garlic and mozzarella) for my 17 year old was awesome. It took a couple tries but I know how to get a good fire with wood chunks, pellets, fire starters and a usb fan and if hot enough the pizzas take 2-3 minutes. Ordering Dominos is easier but less fun and tasty.
Caveman33
Footballguy
I think there are a lot of bartenders and waiters who make 100-200K per year. They certainly don't want the culture to change. In California, waiters earn state or city minimum wage so usually around $16 per hour plus $10-100 in tips.
You know that young dude in your neighborhood who is always around during the day and kind of looks like James Franco? He belongs to the service industry cartel. Don't **** with him or he will **** your wife.
You know that young dude in your neighborhood who is always around during the day and kind of looks like James Franco? He belongs to the service industry cartel. Don't **** with him or he will **** your wife.
culdeus
Footballguy
I do feel like the entire premise that tipping is a reward for excellent service is flawed, and relies on a server taking data in real time that isn't there and making sense of it. A high or low tip is much more likely to be due to the tipper, not the service received. Or in many cases bad math.
I bet if you look at it the main driver across a staff is who is hottest. Hotter waitresses probably rake, and nothing else matters.
I bet if you look at it the main driver across a staff is who is hottest. Hotter waitresses probably rake, and nothing else matters.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Not really. Maybe behind the bar. I’ve seen wildebeests kill it. And I’ve always been the top dog And I’m a dude, allegedly.
Keerock
Footballguy
You'd think by now they'd all know to just look in the tomato cans... that's where the real money is.
culdeus
Footballguy
Bartenders are probably on a different scale. You get people tipping them for actual better service that you can quantify.
