Bamac
Footballguy
In jackass's defense, Martin's mom is a well-educated professional -- exactly the type of "broad" that is more likely to hyphenate her last name.
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Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter KellysHeroes
- Start date
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
There are reports on top of reports with players speaking out in support of Incognito. Many Miami Dolphins after the Philbin interview that really spoke out in support, somewhat embarrassing I would say for fans of the team. Not sure if they had all the info but then again they live in locker room so they should know.
I saw the Rich Gannon piece, the ESPN talking heads but there were lots of guys on the radio today including Larry Fitz who did not speak highly of Martin, former LB for the Bills Darryl Talley was on 560 WQAM today and he blasted Jonathan Martin for doing this.
I feel like Incognito broke federal laws in terms of extortion. Fitzgerald was very open about how much he spent as a rookie, said you gotta pay a price to be a member of the club. So what will happen is now Goodell and a new crusade will break out in the NFL. "Crusade" was used religiously on talk radio all over today not just local but National and of course the National radio hosts have a much bigger spectrum and audience they reach.
We all enjoy posting here but you can't allow bullys on both sides of the fence here dictate what you feel and can or cannot say. I think people will go thru different emotions about all of this, some folks opinions might even change.
Just because something has been done a certain way for the last 50 years doesn't make it right. But I haven't heard a lot of support for Martin coming from many places other than say ESPN or a few former players here n there. I don't think Martin will ever be welcome in a locker room on any team again and if he is, I think he will find a lot of the players won't rag on him but they would be somewhat cold. That's just my opinion today based on what I have heard and read so far. I'm sure Martin knew that though when he left the Miami Dolphins facility and never returned. The culprit or perpetrator Incognito is no longer on the team but Martin is not coming back to the Dolphins to play football. Either there are more folks in the ring leader section or Martin thought pretty long and hard about doing this and is comfortable not playing in the NFL ever again.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
phrozen
Footballguy
I don't buy your theory at all. There is no way Incognito could be that aloof for so long that his actions over his career were okay because people did not fight back. He stole Tannehill's credit card to buy jet ski's - you don't think he thought that was wrong and did it anyway? Should we consider Incognito a sociopath?
fatness
Footballguy
phrozen
Footballguy
SWC
Bromigo
i will say it again brohans whatever you think about martin he has made bullying a front page issue and one that people are talking about and the point is that bullying is wrong it has always been wrong and it will always be wrong and its high time to put a stop to it and tell kids that there is help out there and it can get better and if a big old dude from a nfl football team can be bullied and speak up about it you can to so before you keep on trolling and trying to get rises out of fish in the tank think about a picked on kid pulling a trigger because they feel so afraid and so in a box that they can not see a way out and it makes me want to be sick and punching is not always an option nether is putting your head down and getting thru it so you know what say what you want to about martin he stood up against something that was wrong and that we all know is wrong and he might not have done it perfect and he might get blasted and whatnot from a bunch of guys that except for football you would never have heard of anyhow he might not have a cape on but make no mistake he is a hero to some kid somewhere right now who is getting help instead of going some other horrible direction and you can take that to the bank brohans
Banger
Footballguy
agreed....I send my co-workers voicemails/texts like that all the time. ####### in someone's mouth, threatening to kill, slapping someones mom is routine stuff.
JAMES!
Footballguy
Do these pro leagues and teams think the fans don't know that some of these players are d'bags? I'm well aware that a grown man who blocks other men with his body for a living may be a bit of a meathead. Do we really need to be lectured about OSHA because of this? How about just running a few more NFL Cares commercials as to smooth over the rough patches?
Hoss Style
Footballguy
Not attacking here, Dondante, so keep your dander down. I can tell you're fired up. I like that.
You have a well written post and are obviously a smart guy. I have a question for you though:
When you say we are clearing the road for the weak and chopping the strong down at the knees, you seem to be referencing "hard and dumb" as the strong and "soft and smart" as the weak. I don't understand this. I lean towards the "smart" as the strength in our society and the "dumb" as the weak. Yes, I know I'm taking the "soft" and "hard" out, but even if you leave those in - it's still a 50/50 detriment for both sides.
Sure, "hard and dumb" were the strength of society in the 9th century when Vikings took over much of the land, but today I would say they weaken our society.
I'm with you on the softening of society, to a degree. I love a good brawl, am all for self defense by any means necessary and don't apolgize for feeling men need to act more like "men". But today, being smart is part of being "tough", in my opinion.
For how well you write, and how clearly you make your points, I really have trouble understanding how you think Martin was in the wrong here (having the information we have, as of now). I could be missing your point, as well. I'm working and reading at the same time.
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Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one you send those to, makes me feel like I'm part of the team.
Banger
Footballguy
classic
Gadabout
Footballguy
And now he's gonna have to live with it himself, knowing he could have been a man about it but chose not to. I can imagine he'll live with that regret for the rest of his life.
Quez
Footballguy
in some environments, such jocularity is routine.I've seen too many players defend Incognito today, to simply agree that he was over the line with his comments, or that they were meant to be taken seriously.
With no context, or real-time response from martin, its too hard to judge intent from these snapshots. If you can do that, more power to you, but I think in the ordinary course of these guys' lives, these were not as outrageous as we might think it would be in our lives. We live/work/play in a different world than these guys.
I think we all need to hear more facts before rushing to judgment here.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
I think Gooddell should decide how much to punish Incognito based on how much his jersey sells for on Ebay.
Tau837
Footballguy
Tau837
Footballguy
Quez
Footballguy
Saying you are going to crap in someones mouth pretty much = I am going to own you, destroy you, kill you, crap on you, make you my b___. I have heard worse things on xbox live from 13 yos.
I've seen too many players defend Incognito today, to simply agree that he was over the line with his comments, or that they were meant to be taken seriously.
With no context, or real-time response from martin, its too hard to judge intent from these snapshots. If you can do that, more power to you, but I think in the ordinary course of these guys' lives, these were not as outrageous as we might think it would be in our lives. We live/work/play in a different world than these guys.
I think we all need to hear more facts before rushing to judgment here.
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glock
"Don't grumble, give a whistle!"
Banger
Footballguy
I guess I have a different sense of humor. In fact, I think 95-99% would likely agree with me....
I've seen too many players defend Incognito today, to simply agree that he was over the line with his comments, or that they were meant to be taken seriously.
With no context, or real-time response from martin, its too hard to judge intent from these snapshots. If you can do that, more power to you, but I think in the ordinary course of these guys' lives, these were not as outrageous as we might think it would be in our lives. We live/work/play in a different world than these guys.
I think we all need to hear more facts before rushing to judgment here.
CalBear
Footballguy
Men take the high road. Men call something out when it's wrong.
13 year old boys get into fistfights in the locker room.
The fact that the NFL has a lot of guys who act like 13 year old boys doesn't make it right.
Dondante
Footballguy
When I can get to a computer I'll respond. (I've been posting from behind the wheel to this point).
Doug B
Footballguy
Funny, that. "You gotta pay the price" for stupid behavior, too. The Dolphins' organization is going to find out a lot about paying the price.
And what a convenient stance for Fitzgerald to take, as he was the recipient of a huge pre-2011 rookie signing bonus. I doublt he had to give away half his salary (or more) to fund teammates' nightlife and such. And I doubt any of it was going on after his rookie season, either.
Dondante
Footballguy
Jackstraw
Footballguy
This kid obviously has mental health issues. Doesn't that come into it at all? Everybody is expecting rational behavior out of Martin when he obviously isn't in a normal mental state. Any isssues that he had could still be managed enough to start at the NFL level were clearly exacerbated by Incognito and more than likely the whole offensive line.
Take a guy that's clearly closer to the edge than the average bear and then torment him, embarrass him and ostracize him. Hell yeah he's gonna flip out.
So are you the type of guy to close ranks around the vulnerable or are you the type to dominate them? I think we can tell from various posts in this thread where people stand.
In my opinion the chicken #### in the scenario is the "strong" guy that picked on the weak. If martin couldn't or wouldn't stand up to Incognito, his teamates should have done it for him. Sounds like all they did was point and laugh. Pathetic.
Take a guy that's clearly closer to the edge than the average bear and then torment him, embarrass him and ostracize him. Hell yeah he's gonna flip out.
So are you the type of guy to close ranks around the vulnerable or are you the type to dominate them? I think we can tell from various posts in this thread where people stand.
In my opinion the chicken #### in the scenario is the "strong" guy that picked on the weak. If martin couldn't or wouldn't stand up to Incognito, his teamates should have done it for him. Sounds like all they did was point and laugh. Pathetic.
Loan Sharks
Not a Wolf
Well, SF you know I got your back but in the words of the prophet Cyndi Lauper:
I've seen too many players defend Incognito today, to simply agree that he was over the line with his comments, or that they were meant to be taken seriously.
With no context, or real-time response from martin, its too hard to judge intent from these snapshots. If you can do that, more power to you, but I think in the ordinary course of these guys' lives, these were not as outrageous as we might think it would be in our lives. We live/work/play in a different world than these guys.
I think we all need to hear more facts before rushing to judgment here.
This is about money not bullying. I agree that Incognito "bullying" is overblown, the Martin got everything negative he could get on Incognito to make him look bad. My gut feeling is the money that caused this. A lot of us would put up with juvenile or tasteless stunts for team harmony or because it wasn't worht fighting over.
What wasn't overblown was that Incognito was pressuring payment younger players to give them money. While you may say that thousands of dollars is no big deal, but this is the equivalent of rich guys taking each others lunch money.
Money makes this a big deal. The fact that this happened in Martins 2nd year is telling. It is my opinion that he didn't mind going along to a certain extent but had enough of "being a ATM".
Dude got pissed people were taking his money, he told someone they did nothing = boom goes the dynamite.
I realize I am making some assumptions and drawing my own conclusions that if they prove to be wrong I would re evaluate my posiiton.
1. I believe he told management based on a couple blurbs and he debacle of a presser.
2. I believe that significant amounts of money were "given" to Incognito.
3. The "bullying and racial slurs" are just the accelerant Martin needed to resolve a problem, not the problem itself per se'
4. I believe that if you have 1 voicemail and a half dozen texts , that indicates 2,3 or more times that total amount of incidents. it is incredibly difficult to get incriminating evidence recorded.
Dondante
Footballguy
Big difference here. How many of those 13 year olds are Stanford educated children of attorneys?Saying you are going to crap in someones mouth pretty much = I am going to own you, destroy you, kill you, crap on you, make you my b___. I have heard worse things on xbox live from 13 yos.
With no context, or real-time response from martin, its too hard to judge intent from these snapshots. If you can do that, more power to you, but I think in the ordinary course of these guys' lives, these were not as outrageous as we might think it would be in our lives. We live/work/play in a different world than these guys.
I think we all need to hear more facts before rushing to judgment here.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I appreciate that, ty. There was an onslaught of both good and bad info coming out and I think multiple thoughts going on. There is hazing on every NFL team but this went way beyond hazing, this feels like there was real abuse. And Incognito assuming he extorted money should be in a Miami Dade County jail cell right now.
I don't believe Martin did this as a publicity stunt, I don't think he should be persecuted for not punching out Richie Incognito, this is not 4th grade in the schoolyard and I don't think I would want to get into a fist fight with him, likely would be my face getting caved in. Just because 2 guys are about the same size doesn't mean one cannot mentally override the other.
But I think at some point we have to go much higher up the food chain than Richie. Can someone explain how Jim Turner the OL Coach still has a job? Forget the circus for second, the Phins were on pace to give up the most sacks ever by an NFL team...just fire him for incompetence or inability to coach, you don't need to ask what he knew or didn't know, just fire him. Philbin should have done that immediately and said he would oversee the OL for the rest of the year, cut Incognito, then make a public plea for Martin to please come back.
There are grumblings form the local beat writers that Incognito and the leadership including guys like Pouncey were possibly told to toughen him up. We'll see if that proves to be true.
What were the Martin options? I have a hard time coming up with what his options were but I'm open to hearing some. He went to Philbin in April, Incognito tells him he is still a rookie and the terrorism continues, he tried to make it thru the 2013 season but suddenly he snapped and had enough. I don't think Martin was a loose cannon or crazy or had mental problems, that sounds like a bunch of BS put out there by the Incognito's reps.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Serpico, Cell Biology and Institutional Bullying
to change the metaphor, maybe martin blowing the lid off of the dark side of locker room dynamics somewhat parallels the story of former new york undercover police officer frank serpico (strictly the whistle blower aspect)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico
not a blanket indictment, but in serpico's case, in dealing with corrupt elements of the police force, he was met with a culture of silence and shunned... probably there were not a lot of voices internal to the police department at the time praising serpico for his heroism, but we shouldn't infer from that, he deserved being abandoned by fellow officers, allowing him to be shot in the face and failing to call an ambulance...
or to change the metaphor again, think of a cell in an organism. for the cell, at a basic, fundamental level, regulation, order and equilibrium are life itself... organizations, too, exist to preserve themselves... in some of our lifetimes we have witnessed extraordinary resistance to doing the right thing, such as the introduction of civil rights in some states during the 60s... to go through a change in long established social and cultural mores and traditions can represent a psychologically painful and disorienting loss of identity, and even a sort of "death"... people were murdered over this process...
to bridge the metaphor gap or highlight a potential thematic link between the need for biological and social/cultural/organizational order and self preservation, think of the difference between a healthy and a cancerous cell...
a cancer cell doesn't know it is a cancer cell... its mission is to survive and grow, until it eventually consumes the host, killing it and itself.
whether somebody calls serpico a traitor or hero depends on POV and perspective, but more specifically, on which side of the cell's boundary and regulatory machinery you are on...
for a healthy human cell, its proper functioning as a semiautonomous, self-regulatory agent AND the role it plays as a harmonious part of a larger whole is intrinsically good, from either direction, looking from the inside of the cell out to the body, of from the oustide of the body into the cell...
not so with a cancer cell... from its POV, its preservation and growth is a good thing... but from the perspective of the body, it is a very bad thing... there aren't "two sides to the story"...
racism and bigotry are inherently bad... sometimes there aren't "two sides to the story".
* IF the alleged bullying, harrassment, extortion, racial slurs, death threats, threats to family took place, than incognito was wrong... maybe he learned some of that behavior from others that preceded him... maybe some cancer cells "learn" how to become cancer cells (i don't know the intricacies of molecular biology), but that doesn't make them any less malignant... even if incognito has many precedents (though in this instance it sounds like the scale and magnitude of the offenses tipped things over and across a threshold from being a quantitative to a qualitative difference - from juvenile pranks and hijinx to extortion and Grand Theft Dolphins), that doesn't make him any less of a malignant locker room presence and horrific example to future football players and teammates...
to change the metaphor, maybe martin blowing the lid off of the dark side of locker room dynamics somewhat parallels the story of former new york undercover police officer frank serpico (strictly the whistle blower aspect)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico
not a blanket indictment, but in serpico's case, in dealing with corrupt elements of the police force, he was met with a culture of silence and shunned... probably there were not a lot of voices internal to the police department at the time praising serpico for his heroism, but we shouldn't infer from that, he deserved being abandoned by fellow officers, allowing him to be shot in the face and failing to call an ambulance...
or to change the metaphor again, think of a cell in an organism. for the cell, at a basic, fundamental level, regulation, order and equilibrium are life itself... organizations, too, exist to preserve themselves... in some of our lifetimes we have witnessed extraordinary resistance to doing the right thing, such as the introduction of civil rights in some states during the 60s... to go through a change in long established social and cultural mores and traditions can represent a psychologically painful and disorienting loss of identity, and even a sort of "death"... people were murdered over this process...
to bridge the metaphor gap or highlight a potential thematic link between the need for biological and social/cultural/organizational order and self preservation, think of the difference between a healthy and a cancerous cell...
a cancer cell doesn't know it is a cancer cell... its mission is to survive and grow, until it eventually consumes the host, killing it and itself.
whether somebody calls serpico a traitor or hero depends on POV and perspective, but more specifically, on which side of the cell's boundary and regulatory machinery you are on...
for a healthy human cell, its proper functioning as a semiautonomous, self-regulatory agent AND the role it plays as a harmonious part of a larger whole is intrinsically good, from either direction, looking from the inside of the cell out to the body, of from the oustide of the body into the cell...
not so with a cancer cell... from its POV, its preservation and growth is a good thing... but from the perspective of the body, it is a very bad thing... there aren't "two sides to the story"...
racism and bigotry are inherently bad... sometimes there aren't "two sides to the story".
* IF the alleged bullying, harrassment, extortion, racial slurs, death threats, threats to family took place, than incognito was wrong... maybe he learned some of that behavior from others that preceded him... maybe some cancer cells "learn" how to become cancer cells (i don't know the intricacies of molecular biology), but that doesn't make them any less malignant... even if incognito has many precedents (though in this instance it sounds like the scale and magnitude of the offenses tipped things over and across a threshold from being a quantitative to a qualitative difference - from juvenile pranks and hijinx to extortion and Grand Theft Dolphins), that doesn't make him any less of a malignant locker room presence and horrific example to future football players and teammates...
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RBM
Footballguy
So he kept it bottled up and then just ran home to tell mommy and daddy lawyer. How can anyone defend that? He's a 24 yr old man, gee whiz. If he's not wired to confront the ox Incognito, at least attempt to keep it in house before you run home.-disclaimer- I feel bad for Martin and what he had to deal with and think Incognito is a piece of garbage -disclaimer-
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Half the fan base now is women, did you miss the pink laundry in October all month? There is a PR thing going on. Goodell is all about the image. When he speaks about the shield, he is talking about the image of the NFL. He can't allow that image to be tarnished.
Loan Sharks
Not a Wolf
He won;t have to live with it long, I have no doubt that if he wants to place he will be signed somewhere. Some coaches are old school, some are not. Are there coaches who condone hazing sure are there some that don't put up with it sure.
A 2nd round talent, with lower competition on price. As a GM who runs a clean program I have no problem signing him. With the caveat that I am believing reports that Martin went to management and reported this first, if that is untrue then I would change my opinion.
You sign this guy and he comes to you with a issue, take care of it, the only issue is if he comes to you and you blow him off like Philbin.
Jackstraw
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Did I say I agree with him? I'm bringing information, you can sift thru it as you like.
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Doug B
Footballguy
You did not ... I was addressing the house, though I did not make that clear.
Dondante
Footballguy
Well that's a shame. Ironic in a discussion about accountability that you chose to ignore half of it.
Dondante
Footballguy
Honestly, Philbin's press conference could have been a scene out of AFGM. If we're to believe anything about body language there's a lot to take, I think, from many of those eye rolls and sighs.
JAMES!
Footballguy
Bamac
Footballguy
Carpooling? That's nothing. I heard that Martin paid for Incognito's trip to Vegas. Why would he do that if they weren't best pals? There's nothing to see here except profound coziness.
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JAMES!
Footballguy
The media blowing this up doesn't help anything either. Last night Schefter was discussing the latest updates as if he was Cronkite reporting on the Kennedy assassination. It's a blockhead on a football team being an idiot! And stop comparing a football team to an office job. Do your bosses run around with whistles and tell you how to knock the crap out of people in other offices?
Doug B
Footballguy
Schefter may be hamming it up, but you're wrong here. Everyone coming into this thread late has been wrong about the issue. This isn't, in the end, going to be about Martin & Incognito.
The NFL itself will start treating football jobs much more like office jobs in the near future, or else external parties will do it for them.
