Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (4 Viewers)

[fatness]

I'm starting to wonder if Martin may be bipolar.

Halelujah!

Show me any evidence other than a potential bi-polar person making some claim that nobody else backs up that there was physical abuse, and the story changes dramatically.

Richie Incognito's dad:

NFLPA IS NOT TOUCHING THIS WITH A TEN FOOT POLE. It will come out, Martin has tried to kill himself three previous times. The team is silent because they all know about it, from Ross on down to Ireland and Philbin. If anybody has seen the latest news the NFLPA has decided not to look into the case. Jonathan Martin has had mental issues since College, it will all come out int he wash gentleman, believe me.

Jonahtan Martin, draft bust, drug addict and on suicide watch, what a team. LMFAO.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Tell you what -- with the league slow-playing the investigation, they're doing a great job of keeping this off the front pages. It's taking a lot of air out of Martin's early PR wins.

Someone's gotta write a tell-all book about all this someday. So much is unanswered. And I know in the grand scheme, this is only a six-week old conflagration. But still ... seems like an eternity has passed since any real movement. The thing is starting to settle into the mud. And Goodell has to be smiling.

I think you're right. Yesterdays news of Wells canceling interviews and Martin refusing to hand over text messages went mostly unnoticed.

Depending on Martin's end game, it won't matter. The case won't be decided by the public, it will be decided by a judge, if Martin files a suit.

I'm starting to wonder if Martin may be bipolar.

Halelujah!

I. Can't. Believe. What. I. Just. Read.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

I'm starting to wonder if Martin may be bipolar.

Halelujah!

Show me any evidence other than a potential bi-polar person making some claim that nobody else backs up that there was physical abuse, and the story changes dramatically.

Richie Incognito's dad:

NFLPA IS NOT TOUCHING THIS WITH A TEN FOOT POLE. It will come out, Martin has tried to kill himself three previous times. The team is silent because they all know about it, from Ross on down to Ireland and Philbin. If anybody has seen the latest news the NFLPA has decided not to look into the case. Jonathan Martin has had mental issues since College, it will all come out int he wash gentleman, believe me.

Jonahtan Martin, draft bust, drug addict and on suicide watch, what a team. LMFAO.

 

[KCitons]

Don't misunderstand my comments. I still believe that a person claiming to be a victim deserves to be heard.

Regardless, this incident will force the NFL to regulate lockerroom behavior

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Don't misunderstand my comments. I still believe that a person claiming to be a victim deserves to be heard.

Regardless, this incident will force the NFL to regulate lockerroom behavior

Don't misunderstand my comments. I still believe that a person claiming to be a victim deserves to be heard.

Regardless, this incident will force the NFL to regulate lockerroom behavior

He definitely deserves to be heard. No question. Unfortunately, from the latest reports it does not seem as though he is being very cooperative with those who want to hear from him.

 

[KCitons]

The question is why is he not cooperating?

Is the NFL trying to handle this one way, by paying both players to take time off?

If Martin is unhappy with the proposed resolution, there would be no reason to cooperate with the NFL any longer. Martin may be saving his ammo for the law suit

 

[Bogeys]

Don't misunderstand my comments. I still believe that a person claiming to be a victim deserves to be heard.

Regardless, this incident will force the NFL to regulate lockerroom behavior

Don't misunderstand my comments. I still believe that a person claiming to be a victim deserves to be heard.

Regardless, this incident will force the NFL to regulate lockerroom behavior

He definitely deserves to be heard. No question. Unfortunately, from the latest reports it does not seem as though he is being very cooperative with those who want to hear from him.

Actually not cooperative with people whose best interest is just for the whole thing to go away. If he thinks that the NFL will "destroy" the evidence (spygate) then I don't blame him.

Going to be very interesting how this turns out either way. I don't have a rooting intrerest against or for, so it is just for me

 

[ChuckLiddell]

The question is why is he not cooperating?

Is the NFL trying to handle this one way, by paying both players to take time off?

If Martin is unhappy with the proposed resolution, there would be no reason to cooperate with the NFL any longer. Martin may be saving his ammo for the law suit

Lawsuit? So wait...now this is in fact about money?

Don't misunderstand my comments. I still believe that a person claiming to be a victim deserves to be heard.

Regardless, this incident will force the NFL to regulate lockerroom behavior

Don't misunderstand my comments. I still believe that a person claiming to be a victim deserves to be heard.

Regardless, this incident will force the NFL to regulate lockerroom behavior

He definitely deserves to be heard. No question. Unfortunately, from the latest reports it does not seem as though he is being very cooperative with those who want to hear from him.

Actually not cooperative with people whose best interest is just for the whole thing to go away. If he thinks that the NFL will "destroy" the evidence (spygate) then I don't blame him.

Going to be very interesting how this turns out either way. I don't have a rooting intrerest against or for, so it is just for me

Don't misunderstand my comments. I still believe that a person claiming to be a victim deserves to be heard.

Regardless, this incident will force the NFL to regulate lockerroom behavior

Don't misunderstand my comments. I still believe that a person claiming to be a victim deserves to be heard.

Regardless, this incident will force the NFL to regulate lockerroom behavior

He definitely deserves to be heard. No question. Unfortunately, from the latest reports it does not seem as though he is being very cooperative with those who want to hear from him.

Actually not cooperative with people whose best interest is just for the whole thing to go away. If he thinks that the NFL will "destroy" the evidence (spygate) then I don't blame him.

Going to be very interesting how this turns out either way. I don't have a rooting intrerest against or for, so it is just for me

I believe that Ted Wells is an independent investigator. I could be mistaken, or possibly naïve, but I do not believe that he represents the NFL. If correct, then his interest is not just to see the whole thing go away. It is to get the bottom line truth.

 

[Bogeys]

The question is why is he not cooperating?

Is the NFL trying to handle this one way, by paying both players to take time off?

If Martin is unhappy with the proposed resolution, there would be no reason to cooperate with the NFL any longer. Martin may be saving his ammo for the law suit

Lawsuit? So wait...now this is in fact about money?

Don't misunderstand my comments. I still believe that a person claiming to be a victim deserves to be heard.

Regardless, this incident will force the NFL to regulate lockerroom behavior

Don't misunderstand my comments. I still believe that a person claiming to be a victim deserves to be heard.

Regardless, this incident will force the NFL to regulate lockerroom behavior

He definitely deserves to be heard. No question. Unfortunately, from the latest reports it does not seem as though he is being very cooperative with those who want to hear from him.

Actually not cooperative with people whose best interest is just for the whole thing to go away. If he thinks that the NFL will "destroy" the evidence (spygate) then I don't blame him.

Going to be very interesting how this turns out either way. I don't have a rooting intrerest against or for, so it is just for me

Don't misunderstand my comments. I still believe that a person claiming to be a victim deserves to be heard.

Regardless, this incident will force the NFL to regulate lockerroom behavior

Don't misunderstand my comments. I still believe that a person claiming to be a victim deserves to be heard.

Regardless, this incident will force the NFL to regulate lockerroom behavior

He definitely deserves to be heard. No question. Unfortunately, from the latest reports it does not seem as though he is being very cooperative with those who want to hear from him.

Actually not cooperative with people whose best interest is just for the whole thing to go away. If he thinks that the NFL will "destroy" the evidence (spygate) then I don't blame him.

Going to be very interesting how this turns out either way. I don't have a rooting intrerest against or for, so it is just for me

I believe that Ted Wells is an independent investigator. I could be mistaken, or possibly naïve, but I do not believe that he represents the NFL. If correct, then his interest is not just to see the whole thing go away. It is to get the bottom line truth.

Wasn't he appointed by Goddell and won't that be where the report goes and Roger will decide what and when to release?

I truly believe the NFL nor the Dolphins owners care about anything other than PR hits and potential liability.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Well who else had the power to appoint an independent investigator? Just because he appointed him and will receive the report, does that mean that he represents the NFL? I am not asking that to be a jerk...I really do not know the answer. Although I suspect that based upon the word "independent", that he does not represent anything but the truth.

 

[KCitons]

The question is why is he not cooperating?

Is the NFL trying to handle this one way, by paying both players to take time off?

If Martin is unhappy with the proposed resolution, there would be no reason to cooperate with the NFL any longer. Martin may be saving his ammo for the law suit

Lawsuit? So wait...now this is in fact about money?

Again, you're painting with broad strokes. Was this always about money? Maybe, There were reports early on that Martin did not have any intentions of filing a lawsuit. So, based on those facts, it wasn't about money to start with.

Fast Forward to today and Martin may not be happy with the way the NFL handled this case. He may have to move on to plan B, which is suing.

Even though we live in a "suit happy" society, many people try to solve their problems amicably. When one party attempts to take advantage of the other, that's when it has to be elevated to the courts.

Well who else had the power to appoint an independent investigator? Just because he appointed him and will receive the report, does that mean that he represents the NFL? I am not asking that to be a jerk...I really do not know the answer. Although I suspect that based upon the word "independent", that he does not represent anything but the truth.

Would Martin be allowed to hire his own independent investigator? He was probably led to believe that Wells was going to get to the bottom of things. But, reports have been made that Dolphins players have either refused to talk to Wells, or have had very short interviews with Wells. This is in part to the players not being under oath or no having to respond to a subpoena.

Martin may just decide to move this process into the courtroom. If other players that could substantiate his case, are not willing to cooperate with Wells, let's see how they cooperate with a judge.

 

[fatness]

Armando Salguero of the Miami Herald reports that Incognito definitely won’t return to the team — after Sunday’s game or ever.

Salguero also believes that a decision has been made or will be made to extend Incognito’s currently paid suspension through the end of the regular season, keeping him out of action for the Dolphins or anyone for the rest of the year.

In March, Incognito becomes a free agent.

That cuts against the sense of optimism previously emanating from Camp Incognito regarding the possibility that he’ll be playing in the postseason.

Salguero believes Incognito will go along with an effort to shut him down with pay, given that he did some things he shouldn’t have done, even if NFL investigator Ted Wells concludes that those things don’t amount to bullying or harassment of tackle Jonathan Martin.

Speaking of Wells, Salguero expects the public release of the independent report to be delayed, possibly until after the Super Bowl. Salguero also reports that Martin will not be back with the Dolphins, at any time. Salguero writes that Martin will be traded to the highest bidder in the offseason.

Of course, there will be no bidder unless it’s clear that Martin truly wants to play football. If no one is willing to take that leap of faith, the Dolphins may have to waive him.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/12/11/report-neither-incognito-nor-martin-will-be-back-in-miami/

 

[fatness]

The most obvious evidence the investigation has faded was an ESPN report Tuesday afternooon that said NFL investigator Ted Wells canceled his follow-up interviews with the Dolphins. The report also said the investigation may not be completed before the end of the year.

I have other news:

This investigation, completed or not, may not be released until after the Super Bowl.

Think of it, the last thing the NFL wants the final month of the season is the narrative to turn away from football and toward an uncomfortable scandal. It's unfair to the Dolphins, who are in the middle of a playoff hunt, and the league that is enjoying perhaps its most popular time of the year as fans, the media and teams gear up for the postseason.

So do the investigation findings come out now? No.

Well, how about right after the regular-season? Well, if the Dolphins are in the postseason -- which is a possibility if they win out the final three weeks starting with New England on Sunday -- that would pose a major distraction amid playoff preparations. So the findings aren't coming out then.

Indeed, even if the Dolphins are not in the playoffs the last thing the NFL wants is for the national narrative to turn away from the postseason and the league's best teams to focus on something that happened in an isolated incident or series of incidents between two players on a non-playoff qualifier months and months ago.

No, the NFL is going to make sure the integrity of its postseason is not damaged. And the postseason, as we all know, does not end until after the Super Bowl. And that's when the league would most likely release the investigation's results.

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2013/12/crisis-managed-for-the-dolphins-its-all-about-football.html#storylink=cpy

So Incognito will agree to simply remain suspended. No roster move. No headlines. No controversy. Just ... silence -- like the last few weeks.

Why, you ask, would Incognito agree to such a course?

Didn't Peter King of NBC and SI report at least one playoff-caliber team would take Incognito if he's cut? Wouldn't Incognito want that? Yeah, whatever. The NFL doesn't want that. And Incognito is going to agree to do what the NFL wants.

Why?

That's simple: It is clear Incognito engaged in some behavior Jonathan Martin perceived as harassment or bullying. Incognito admitted to that voice mail so he's admitted to some harassment. So he is going to be punished for that. Also, bringing unwanted publicity and attention upon his team and the league -- which in of itself is a violaton of the NFL personal conduct policy -- also merits punishment.

So Incognito will agree to remain suspended the final couple of weeks of this season, with pay of course, in return for a guarantee that there will be no further discipline from the NFL beyond this season. He would be free to return to the league next season.

That return, again, would be with another team. He is an unrestricted free agent in the offseason. The Dolphins are not going to re-sign him

 

[ChuckLiddell]

The question is why is he not cooperating?

Is the NFL trying to handle this one way, by paying both players to take time off?

If Martin is unhappy with the proposed resolution, there would be no reason to cooperate with the NFL any longer. Martin may be saving his ammo for the law suit

Lawsuit? So wait...now this is in fact about money?

Again, you're painting with broad strokes. Was this always about money? Maybe, There were reports early on that Martin did not have any intentions of filing a lawsuit. So, based on those facts, it wasn't about money to start with.

Fast Forward to today and Martin may not be happy with the way the NFL handled this case. He may have to move on to plan B, which is suing.

Even though we live in a "suit happy" society, many people try to solve their problems amicably. When one party attempts to take advantage of the other, that's when it has to be elevated to the courts.

Well who else had the power to appoint an independent investigator? Just because he appointed him and will receive the report, does that mean that he represents the NFL? I am not asking that to be a jerk...I really do not know the answer. Although I suspect that based upon the word "independent", that he does not represent anything but the truth.

Would Martin be allowed to hire his own independent investigator? He was probably led to believe that Wells was going to get to the bottom of things. But, reports have been made that Dolphins players have either refused to talk to Wells, or have had very short interviews with Wells. This is in part to the players not being under oath or no having to respond to a subpoena.

Martin may just decide to move this process into the courtroom. If other players that could substantiate his case, are not willing to cooperate with Wells, let's see how they cooperate with a judge.

Gotta wonder why Martin wont share his phone records with the independent investigator. Its not like he is going to burn them. He can still use them in his lawsuit later even if he shares them. What is he hiding? My guess...he is hiding nothing...because there is nothing. Except maybe evidence that the hazing went both ways, and that maybe there are some mental issues that could hurt his case by explaining why he went off the deep end due to a minor childish prank.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Well who else had the power to appoint an independent investigator? Just because he appointed him and will receive the report, does that mean that he represents the NFL? I am not asking that to be a jerk...I really do not know the answer. Although I suspect that based upon the word "independent", that he does not represent anything but the truth.

Wells was appointed by Goodell. I presume this means Wells will report to him and Goodell will publish whatever he wants. That could be everything or nothing.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

The question is why is he not cooperating?

Is the NFL trying to handle this one way, by paying both players to take time off?

If Martin is unhappy with the proposed resolution, there would be no reason to cooperate with the NFL any longer. Martin may be saving his ammo for the law suit

Lawsuit? So wait...now this is in fact about money?

Again, you're painting with broad strokes. Was this always about money? Maybe, There were reports early on that Martin did not have any intentions of filing a lawsuit. So, based on those facts, it wasn't about money to start with.Fast Forward to today and Martin may not be happy with the way the NFL handled this case. He may have to move on to plan B, which is suing.

Even though we live in a "suit happy" society, many people try to solve their problems amicably. When one party attempts to take advantage of the other, that's when it has to be elevated to the courts.

Well who else had the power to appoint an independent investigator? Just because he appointed him and will receive the report, does that mean that he represents the NFL? I am not asking that to be a jerk...I really do not know the answer. Although I suspect that based upon the word "independent", that he does not represent anything but the truth.

Would Martin be allowed to hire his own independent investigator? He was probably led to believe that Wells was going to get to the bottom of things. But, reports have been made that Dolphins players have either refused to talk to Wells, or have had very short interviews with Wells. This is in part to the players not being under oath or no having to respond to a subpoena. Martin may just decide to move this process into the courtroom. If other players that could substantiate his case, are not willing to cooperate with Wells, let's see how they cooperate with a judge.

Gotta wonder why Martin wont share his phone records with the independent investigator. Its not like he is going to burn them. He can still use them in his lawsuit later even if he shares them. What is he hiding? My guess...he is hiding nothing...because there is nothing. Except maybe evidence that the hazing went both ways, and that maybe there are some mental issues that could hurt his case by explaining why he went off the deep end due to a minor childish prank.

My 2 possibilities are that either Martin was painted into a corner by Wells so that some of his story isn't supported or that Martin realizes that Wells has a failing investigation and going through the motions isn't going to help him.

 

[KCitons]

Again, why should Martin comply with full disclosure, when other players are not?

Why give the NFL anything? If they want it, they can get it after the suit is filed.

The NFL does not want any negative publicity. A lawsuit by Martin would certainly fall into that category. So, this may be Martin's camp putting pressure back on the NFL.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I truly believe the NFL nor the Dolphins owners care about anything other than PR hits and potential liability.

Would you expect anything else? This league is run by billionaires that steamrolled other people to get to where they are. If there was a culture of abuse and it didn't cost them money in some way, they would not care.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Again, why should Martin comply with full disclosure, when other players are not?

Are other players not?

But to answer your question, if he wants to show leadership, he should be completely forthright. I know that doesn't work with legal games though.

 

[KCitons]

Again, why should Martin comply with full disclosure, when other players are not?

Are other players not?

But to answer your question, if he wants to show leadership, he should be completely forthright. I know that doesn't work with legal games though.

I tend to think Martin started out being forthcoming. (I may be wrong) He certainly had to lay out an expected result to Wells during the first interview. Wells may have told Martin that expectation is not going to be met.

It was reported that some Dolphins players did not cooperate with the Wells interviews. Because there was no legal obligation for them to do so.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Again, why should Martin comply with full disclosure, when other players are not?

Why give the NFL anything? If they want it, they can get it after the suit is filed.

The NFL does not want any negative publicity. A lawsuit by Martin would certainly fall into that category. So, this may be Martin's camp putting pressure back on the NFL.

Because he is the one that brought this $hitstorm to the forefront, and he is the one making the accusations. Additionally, the opinions have been expressed on this board by many people that he is the good guy that is trying to expose the bad guys. So expose! You have your forum, if you have something to share that will support your allegations, then use that forum. This isn't about money...this is about exposing all of the mean guys in the Dolphins locker room as the bullies that they are! This is about changing a bad locker room culture! Right?

Or, is it not really about that, but more about a guy that could not hack it and had trusted loved ones advise him of a great way out without giving up all of the scheckles?

 

[MoveToSkypager]

It was reported that some Dolphins players did not cooperate with the Wells interviews. Because there was no legal obligation for them to do so.

Ohhh, I didn't read that. Since Wells got going, I figure there could be a bunch of unworthy junk being released now. I think we'll have to wait until March to get any part of the truth, and even then Goodell doesn't exactly have a good record of releasing information we want to know regarding NFL problems (Spy/Bounty gates).

 

[KCitons]

Again, why should Martin comply with full disclosure, when other players are not?

Why give the NFL anything? If they want it, they can get it after the suit is filed.

The NFL does not want any negative publicity. A lawsuit by Martin would certainly fall into that category. So, this may be Martin's camp putting pressure back on the NFL.

Because he is the one that brought this ####storm to the forefront, and he is the one making the accusations. Additionally, the opinions have been expressed on this board by many people that he is the good guy that is trying to expose the bad guys. So expose! You have your forum, if you have something to share that will support your allegations, then use that forum. This isn't about money...this is about exposing all of the mean guys in the Dolphins locker room as the bullies that they are! This is about changing a bad locker room culture! Right?

Or, is it not really about that, but more about a guy that could not hack it and had trusted loved ones advise him of a great way out without giving up all of the scheckles?

Yep, you're right Chuck. Based on all the facts, Martin is the root of the problem. He did this for either money or to be a martyr. How is Wells going to help him accomplish either of these things? Answer is, he won't.

I asked this question a few weeks ago. What is Martins end game? If it's money, then just sue. If it's to expose the Incognito, the Dolphins locker room, and the NFL culture, he did that.

Maybe he thought the initial information we provoke a sympathetic response from the Dolphins and the NFL. That doesn't appear to be what happened. Someone here mentioned that the 1st Wells interview with Martin took so long, because Well's was putting pressure on Martin. If it's starting to appear that Martin will have no choice but to sue, why give Wells and the league any more info until they have to?

 

[SWC]

kcbitcoins you are way to in to this thread brohan i hope that you can find peace out there some day take that to the bank

 

[KCitons]

kcbitcoins you are way to in to this thread brohan i hope that you can find peace out there some day take that to the bank

I'm just not ready to drag my knuckles on the ground with the other side.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

kcbitcoins you are way to in to this thread brohan i hope that you can find peace out there some day take that to the bank

I'm just not ready to drag my knuckles on the ground with the other side.

Whats that supposed to mean? We are of caveman or gorilla mentality if we think that calling someone names on a football field or in a locker room is not grounds to quit a football team? Or sue a league?

Didn't you allude to him being bi-polar earlier today? Are you flipping or are you flopping? Dragging knuckles or climbing up so high on your horse that your ears pop? Which one is it?

 

[KCitons]

kcbitcoins you are way to in to this thread brohan i hope that you can find peace out there some day take that to the bank

I'm just not ready to drag my knuckles on the ground with the other side.

Whats that supposed to mean? We are of caveman or gorilla mentality if we think that calling someone names on a football field or in a locker room is not grounds to quit a football team? Or sue a league?

Didn't you allude to him being bi-polar earlier today? Are you flipping or are you flopping? Dragging knuckles or climbing up so high on your horse that your ears pop? Which one is it?

When you use terms such as wussification of America, before getting any part of the victims story. That makes you a knuckle dragger.

I said he may be bi-polar. It was a possible explanation for Martin's choice to not turn over text messages. He may be having remorse for leaving his team. As someone already mentioned, Martin may have participated in hazing because he just wanted to fit in. You don't think his decision to walk away, and stay away from his teammates is difficult? He has to have some regrets. Maybe he just drops everything. Never files a law suit and never plays football again.

That would be a sign of a mental issue for Martin, but may not excuse the actions of Incognito. Don't confuse the two. In the end, we may find that this situation truly was the perfect storm.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

kcbitcoins you are way to in to this thread brohan i hope that you can find peace out there some day take that to the bank

I'm just not ready to drag my knuckles on the ground with the other side.

Whats that supposed to mean? We are of caveman or gorilla mentality if we think that calling someone names on a football field or in a locker room is not grounds to quit a football team? Or sue a league?

Didn't you allude to him being bi-polar earlier today? Are you flipping or are you flopping? Dragging knuckles or climbing up so high on your horse that your ears pop? Which one is it?

When you use terms such as wussification of America, before getting any part of the victims story. That makes you a knuckle dragger.

I said he may be bi-polar. It was a possible explanation for Martin's choice to not turn over text messages. He may be having remorse for leaving his team. As someone already mentioned, Martin may have participated in hazing because he just wanted to fit in. You don't think his decision to walk away, and stay away from his teammates is difficult? He has to have some regrets. Maybe he just drops everything. Never files a law suit and never plays football again.

That would be a sign of a mental issue for Martin, but may not excuse the actions of Incognito. Don't confuse the two. In the end, we may find that this situation truly was the perfect storm.

Are you calling me names? Isnt that the whole argument you have against the Dolphins horrible locker room? Oh, the irony and hypocrisy...its chilling!

 

[fatness]

Are you calling me names? Isnt that the whole argument you have against the Dolphins horrible locker room? Oh, the irony and hypocrisy...its chilling!

You're cute when you play martyr. Not convincing, but cute.

 

[KCitons]

kcbitcoins you are way to in to this thread brohan i hope that you can find peace out there some day take that to the bank

I'm just not ready to drag my knuckles on the ground with the other side.

Whats that supposed to mean? We are of caveman or gorilla mentality if we think that calling someone names on a football field or in a locker room is not grounds to quit a football team? Or sue a league?

Didn't you allude to him being bi-polar earlier today? Are you flipping or are you flopping? Dragging knuckles or climbing up so high on your horse that your ears pop? Which one is it?

When you use terms such as wussification of America, before getting any part of the victims story. That makes you a knuckle dragger.

I said he may be bi-polar. It was a possible explanation for Martin's choice to not turn over text messages. He may be having remorse for leaving his team. As someone already mentioned, Martin may have participated in hazing because he just wanted to fit in. You don't think his decision to walk away, and stay away from his teammates is difficult? He has to have some regrets. Maybe he just drops everything. Never files a law suit and never plays football again.

That would be a sign of a mental issue for Martin, but may not excuse the actions of Incognito. Don't confuse the two. In the end, we may find that this situation truly was the perfect storm.

Are you calling me names? Isnt that the whole argument you have against the Dolphins horrible locker room? Oh, the irony and hypocrisy...its chilling!

Yeah. You WIn! Now go tape your knuckles.

Go back and read the entire thread again. I actually said I'm fine with hazing. As long as it's the same in all locker rooms. I still believe there is more to this story than bad haircuts for rookies. If it was nothing, 2/5ths of the Dolphins Offensive line wouldn't be on paid leave

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Are you calling me names? Isnt that the whole argument you have against the Dolphins horrible locker room? Oh, the irony and hypocrisy...its chilling!

You're cute when you play martyr. Not convincing, but cute.

I'm good with cute. What are you doin tonight?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

kcbitcoins you are way to in to this thread brohan i hope that you can find peace out there some day take that to the bank

I'm just not ready to drag my knuckles on the ground with the other side.

Whats that supposed to mean? We are of caveman or gorilla mentality if we think that calling someone names on a football field or in a locker room is not grounds to quit a football team? Or sue a league?

Didn't you allude to him being bi-polar earlier today? Are you flipping or are you flopping? Dragging knuckles or climbing up so high on your horse that your ears pop? Which one is it?

When you use terms such as wussification of America, before getting any part of the victims story. That makes you a knuckle dragger.

I said he may be bi-polar. It was a possible explanation for Martin's choice to not turn over text messages. He may be having remorse for leaving his team. As someone already mentioned, Martin may have participated in hazing because he just wanted to fit in. You don't think his decision to walk away, and stay away from his teammates is difficult? He has to have some regrets. Maybe he just drops everything. Never files a law suit and never plays football again.

That would be a sign of a mental issue for Martin, but may not excuse the actions of Incognito. Don't confuse the two. In the end, we may find that this situation truly was the perfect storm.

Are you calling me names? Isnt that the whole argument you have against the Dolphins horrible locker room? Oh, the irony and hypocrisy...its chilling!

Yeah. You WIn! Now go tape your knuckles.

Go back and read the entire thread again. I actually said I'm fine with hazing. As long as it's the same in all locker rooms. I still believe there is more to this story than bad haircuts for rookies. If it was nothing, 2/5ths of the Dolphins Offensive line wouldn't be on paid leave

HAHAHAH! So you are proposing conformity in hazing protocol across all NFL locker rooms? Good luck with that one. Hilarious!!!

I'll tape my knuckles. You put a band aid on your bleeding heart.

 

[KCitons]

Glad you think it's funny. I'm here all week, Don't forget to tip your waitress.

But if a rookie takes a sock full of coins to the face next summer, the NFL will have some 'splainin to do. It won't be so easy to dodge a law suit after this Martin incident.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Glad you think it's funny. I'm here all week, Don't forget to tip your waitress.

But if a rookie takes a sock full of coins to the face next summer, the NFL will have some 'splainin to do. It won't be so easy to dodge a law suit after this Martin incident.

When someone taking a sock full of coins to the face becomes relevant to this case, let me know.

 

[KCitons]

Glad you think it's funny. I'm here all week, Don't forget to tip your waitress.

But if a rookie takes a sock full of coins to the face next summer, the NFL will have some 'splainin to do. It won't be so easy to dodge a law suit after this Martin incident.

When someone taking a sock full of coins to the face becomes relevant to this case, let me know.

How would you like me to let you know? You seem to miss everything else. I don't want you to miss that too.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Glad you think it's funny. I'm here all week, Don't forget to tip your waitress.

But if a rookie takes a sock full of coins to the face next summer, the NFL will have some 'splainin to do. It won't be so easy to dodge a law suit after this Martin incident.

When someone taking a sock full of coins to the face becomes relevant to this case, let me know.

How would you like me to let you know? You seem to miss everything else. I don't want you to miss that too.

What have I missed? Fill me in. Has any real evidence come out of any wrongdoing by anyone against your favorite former NFL player, Jonathan Martin? Has he shared any horrific stories about what has happened to him. Did someone hurt his feewwings by calling him a name?? Has he checked into any mental institutions lately? Has he allowed another sack?

 

[KCitons]

Uh yeah. There has been some evidence of inappropriate texts, a vegas trip, mandatory OL meetings at a strip club, and fines. We haven't heard about facts relating to physical abuse of Martin. But, we did learn of abuse towards a golf attendant and locker room attendants.

You seem to want to dismiss all of this because it's your favorite team. When this is all over, Martin will be forgotten You will still be a Dolphins fan.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Uh yeah. There has been some evidence of inappropriate texts, a vegas trip, mandatory OL meetings at a strip club, and fines. We haven't heard about facts relating to physical abuse of Martin. But, we did learn of abuse towards a golf attendant and locker room attendants.

You seem to want to dismiss all of this because it's your favorite team. When this is all over, Martin will be forgotten You will still be a Dolphins fan.

That's all you got, huh? This is what you think I have missed?

Inappropriate texts - Big deal. They went both ways, and were taken out of context.

Vegas Trip - He committed, then bailed. The other guys should pay for him to not go?

OL Meeting at a strip club - Oh, the humanity!

Golf Incident - We know no details, and as far as we know Martin had no involvement. How does this have anything to do with him?

These are the reasons for him to walk out on the team? And maybe sue the league? You are cool with that? You call me a gorilla because I think that's ridiculous? The golf incident is the only thing on there that could possibly be a real argument, and that happened 18 months before he walked out. Plus, we know none of the details. We can assume all we want, but we know nothing about that incident.

Are you serious with this?

 

[KCitons]

Yes, I am serious.

If it was nothing. Incognito would be back on the team by now and Martin would have been fined for not reporting to the team during the season.

I'm sorry you can't read between the lines. I can't help you.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Yes, I am serious.

If it was nothing. Incognito would be back on the team by now and Martin would have been fined for not reporting to the team during the season.

I'm sorry you can't read between the lines. I can't help you.

Don't worry about helping me. I'm just fine. You focus your time on worrying about all the poor babies that are getting called names by those bad, mean boys...in an NFL locker room.

 

[KCitons]

Yes, I am serious.

If it was nothing. Incognito would be back on the team by now and Martin would have been fined for not reporting to the team during the season.

I'm sorry you can't read between the lines. I can't help you.

Don't worry about helping me. I'm just fine. You focus your time on worrying about all the poor babies that are getting called names by those bad, mean boys...in an NFL locker room.

This is why you don't understand what is happening.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Yes, I am serious.

If it was nothing. Incognito would be back on the team by now and Martin would have been fined for not reporting to the team during the season.

I'm sorry you can't read between the lines. I can't help you.

Don't worry about helping me. I'm just fine. You focus your time on worrying about all the poor babies that are getting called names by those bad, mean boys...in an NFL locker room.

This is why you don't understand what is happening.

Oh, ok. I sure do wish I could see things as clearly as you do. Must be awesome to be as high, mighty, and all-knowing as you are. Or at least a great feeling to think that you are.

 

[KCitons]

It is pretty nice.

 

[Bob Magaw]

"Glad you think it's funny. I'm here all week, Don't forget to tip your waitress." Shecky (KC) recommends the veal.

preliminarily, wanted to acknowledge i thought kalamazoo's summation was maybe the best in the entire thread. some would say it was slanted (everything is, i can tell from the caliber and quality of thinking that resonated behind and around and through those words he wouldn't be insulted by a platitude that nobody is objective in a post-modern sense, or any sense, for that matter - even documentaries reveal subjectivity at the level of subject/editorial choice levels). some would say it SHOULD be slanted (if only so the voice of the assaulted golf volunteer and harrassed team employee may be heard, even if we think the exchange between the principals themselves was petty and insconsequential - the ones they had to endure weren't)...

Sounds like based on reports cited above (post #s 3767 & 3768) by the tireless, underappreciated fatness...

if those reports are accurate...

1 - Some were saying neither player would lose their job, both would, just ingonito or just martin... so anybody that said both would (not many i think), winner winner chicken dinner. With respect to the accuracy among the two sides on the divide that said either Martin would not lose his job but Incognito would, or vice verce, respectively... both sides were right in one of the things they affirmed, and both sides were wrong in the other. tie. i think my position was it was hard to see how incognito could come back given reports of an assult at the team/sponsor golf event, as well as the outrage expressed by the owner at the presser about language (whether from a place of love or not)... to do so would make him come off as a hypocrite. About Martin, I said I preferred to wait until we heard his side post independent investigation findings. i think i was right about richie, i hedged and didn't participate with martin (whether he would be fired - i haven't emphasized his possible role and maybe inwardly cringed at not wanting even a small chance of being subsequently viewed as victim blamer, even if i were to concede that at times he looked like he may have had more than his fair share of responsibility for the events and possible misunderstandings/miscommunications, if that is what they prove to be in the end).

2 - This story has a lot of layers and levels, it is nuanced and complex, and there been reports from numerous sources spread across different times of this story. A partial reminder and summation of what may be some points germane and salient to the discussion. It has been said nothing came up from the locker, lending credence to the nothing happened interpretation. The context of that, though, was that many/all players refused to talk or cooperate in the investigation. A few players like Tannehill, Hartline, etc. did talk, so several players did publicly support incognito's version and not martin's in media interviews. That could have some bearing on the truth that may come out later (though, those of the something happened inclination have stated examples in which the LAST thing one should conclude from a group of some kind [[even a football team-sized quantity]] adhering to and being rigidly undeviating from the company line doesn't always and necessarily mean what the nothing happened side has said - as an example, we don't have to strain our memory for a recent historical exemplar, look back no further than last year with BOUNTYGATE for clear evidence of watergate like coverup and team-wide conscious image/message disinformation and investigative obstruction - this is probably the least likely explantion in this case, imo, but clearly it can and does happen, it is far from unlikely to think it might have happened in this case [[in other words, the chances that it happened might be a lot closer to 50/50 than 100/1]]).

3 - Related to the above - Even if we isolate out and compartmentalize what we know of martin's behavior that could be construed as suspect (the dog meme?), like snapping over a petty gag such as the cafeteria flashpoint, that he had recently participated in himself, along with other gags, pranks (like moving the car) and stunts seemingly on the more benign and innocuous part of the continuum and spectrum... it would seem incognito allegedly did some bad things. Golfing. possible harrassment of a non-player team employee. racial and cultural mocking with language and clothes. sexual jokes about a wife. we don't know the full story behind the allegations. maybe the other party knew it was from a place of love and replied in kind. maybe not. it is one thing for incognito to allegedly harrass a player. but a team employee is not on a level playing field. a complaint as a whisteblower could lead to reprisal up to and including termination (maybe they were the source of the report?). if the actions and words were unwanted, than obviously that is cowardly and despicable. and for every report by a player and ex-teammate that seemed to side with incognito (murtha claimed to be unbiased, which nobody ever is, except for maybe gandhi, MLK, mother teresa and saints like that... murtha clearly liked incognito better, and was a former collegiate teammate, so went back together further), there was a matching one that contradicted it, like Cam Cleeland's devastating indictment of incognito as a violently psychotic lunatic specifically and the NFL's old school hazing culture in general.

4 - re: Martin not cooperating with request for phone records, admittedly on the initial bull#### detector level sounds like he has something to hide. maybe he does. it is true that he could have still used them in a trial later, even if he surrendered them at this time. not sure if retaining them might have a legal purpose we aren't currently understanding or accounting for, it would be great to get legal perspective here (of course, we will find out some of this stuff eventually, but i mean in the interim, before the expected post super bowl release). i'm thinking in terms of leverage. there still isn't a law suit (and may never be). but what if the independent investigation reveals that some of level of harrassment and beyond the pale hazing did in fact take place (the golf volunteer and team employee might agree with this, as well as cam cleeland, who was a former teammate, and was also partially blinded with a sock of coins smashing into his orbital socket ala kermit washington's fist into rudy tomjanovich's face - where he could taste his own spinal fluid, due to the violence of the skull fracture). would the team and possibly league to some extent be liable to legal action? what if martin is ostracized by nobody signing him as a free agent (would commish ask a team to do it so there is no stigma or hint of impropriety, and to attempt heading off an impasse that has no other recourse but civil trial or potentially costly settlement?). If there is a later suit, holding potential evidence doesn't do the league a favor by giving them advance notice in how to craft a potential rebuttal.

5 - At this point, my interest has shifted beyond the players to the larger league institution and dolphins organization. mort already said don't expect systemic NFL changes (my paraphrase ), if only because to do so would be admission of sorts that they didn't already have sufficient codes in place (and they can put it on richie, a human embodiment of aberration if there ever was one). they took it seriously, but things would be codified (if not already), reminders given, exhortations made, on a TEAM-BY-TEAM basis (the dolphins have tasked no less than TWO committees to enact changes going forward, new charters, at the player/coach level and an administrative level). Regarding the dolphins, when the report finally comes out -

a) Did ireland and philbin have a role (if any) in creating the culture and conditions that led to the allegations?

b) Did they actively contribute to and exacerbate them (code red, why didn't you punch richie)?

c) Did they know about them?

d) What will be the implications for their future based on the above... if the answer to any of the three is yes (and they are interrelated and connected), lets say with and in the case of ireland for instance, than allowing him to keep his job would give the resolution to the whole tawdry and sordid affair an aura of a superficial, cosmetic band-aid (like the kind with mickey mouse patterns on it for kids ).

* some other consequences or larger, more enduring repercussions. incognito has been exposed (AGAIN!). to some degree, martin may also be (again, i want to hear the findings - incognito's background and history has voluminous elements too well documented to credibly ignore, of a chronic and habitual nature - i feel less obligated with the old innocent until proven guilty injunction in his case, and it is a misnomer in the court of public opinions anways - but guilty as charged on the basis of methodological asymmetry, i am conscious of it and OK with that correct perception for the stated reasons). also, incognito and martin will now alway be linked and their fates intertwined, no matter the result and outcome. ironically, martin's legacy may continue to be stalked and haunted by incognito in history as much or more and long after the events that precipitated their recognition and memory.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Bob - Always appreciate your thoughtful posts.

Regarding point 2 - Not so sure there are all that many levels here. At least not based upon what has been shared with the public. There may prove to be, but on the surface, we may simply have an emotionally troubled young man, who snapped. I am sure Richie had something to do with him snapping, but I am not sure that it was so egregious to have warranted the reaction. Regarding relating this to bountygate/spygate...I think its quite different. In those cases, there were whistle blowers, but they were not necessarily singular "victims" like Martin has portrayed himself to be. There were franchises effected by the cheating, and players that were hurt on the field by the bounties...but those were not the (for sake of a better term) plaintiffs necessarily in those cases. In this case, it is one person making accusations against a team and league. I feel like its just different.

Regarding point 4 - I don't see how him not sharing those records will help him in a lawsuit. I am not a lawyer, but I do watch a lot of TV...I think the defendants (The NFL) will have access to those records if they want them. And if Martin wants to use them as evidence, it will have to be entered as evidence for the defendants to see. At least that's what I remember from Law and Order. Agreed that some commentary from a legal professional would benefit us on this point. At any rate, it seems very strange that he makes these accusations, then refuses to cooperate with the guy that is sent in to respond to his accusations. It stinks as far as I'm concerned. A lot of talk about people not seeing the fire behind the smoke...I think that applies here. There is some smoke.

Point 5 - Its semantics, but I don't think Ireland allegedly told Martin to punch Richie. I think, if I remember correctly that he allegedly told his agent to tell him to "stand up" to Richie. If I am remembering correctly, there is a significant difference there. I am by the way, no fan of Ireland. I'd like to see him gone. But not necessarily because of this particular incident.

 

[KCitons]

Bob - Always appreciate your thoughtful posts.

Regarding point 2 - Not so sure there are all that many levels here. At least not based upon what has been shared with the public. There may prove to be, but on the surface, we may simply have an emotionally troubled young man, who snapped. I am sure Richie had something to do with him snapping, but I am not sure that it was so egregious to have warranted the reaction. Regarding relating this to bountygate/spygate...I think its quite different. In those cases, there were whistle blowers, but they were not necessarily singular "victims" like Martin has portrayed himself to be. There were franchises effected by the cheating, and players that were hurt on the field by the bounties...but those were not the (for sake of a better term) plaintiffs necessarily in those cases. In this case, it is one person making accusations against a team and league. I feel like its just different.

Regarding point 4 - I don't see how him not sharing those records will help him in a lawsuit. I am not a lawyer, but I do watch a lot of TV...I think the defendants (The NFL) will have access to those records if they want them. And if Martin wants to use them as evidence, it will have to be entered as evidence for the defendants to see. At least that's what I remember from Law and Order. Agreed that some commentary from a legal professional would benefit us on this point. At any rate, it seems very strange that he makes these accusations, then refuses to cooperate with the guy that is sent in to respond to his accusations. It stinks as far as I'm concerned. A lot of talk about people not seeing the fire behind the smoke...I think that applies here. There is some smoke.

Point 5 - Its semantics, but I don't think Ireland allegedly told Martin to punch Richie. I think, if I remember correctly that he allegedly told his agent to tell him to "stand up" to Richie. If I am remembering correctly, there is a significant difference there. I am by the way, no fan of Ireland. I'd like to see him gone. But not necessarily because of this particular incident.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Bob - Always appreciate your thoughtful posts.

Regarding point 2 - Not so sure there are all that many levels here. At least not based upon what has been shared with the public. There may prove to be, but on the surface, we may simply have an emotionally troubled young man, who snapped. I am sure Richie had something to do with him snapping, but I am not sure that it was so egregious to have warranted the reaction. Regarding relating this to bountygate/spygate...I think its quite different. In those cases, there were whistle blowers, but they were not necessarily singular "victims" like Martin has portrayed himself to be. There were franchises effected by the cheating, and players that were hurt on the field by the bounties...but those were not the (for sake of a better term) plaintiffs necessarily in those cases. In this case, it is one person making accusations against a team and league. I feel like its just different.

Regarding point 4 - I don't see how him not sharing those records will help him in a lawsuit. I am not a lawyer, but I do watch a lot of TV...I think the defendants (The NFL) will have access to those records if they want them. And if Martin wants to use them as evidence, it will have to be entered as evidence for the defendants to see. At least that's what I remember from Law and Order. Agreed that some commentary from a legal professional would benefit us on this point. At any rate, it seems very strange that he makes these accusations, then refuses to cooperate with the guy that is sent in to respond to his accusations. It stinks as far as I'm concerned. A lot of talk about people not seeing the fire behind the smoke...I think that applies here. There is some smoke.

Point 5 - Its semantics, but I don't think Ireland allegedly told Martin to punch Richie. I think, if I remember correctly that he allegedly told his agent to tell him to "stand up" to Richie. If I am remembering correctly, there is a significant difference there. I am by the way, no fan of Ireland. I'd like to see him gone. But not necessarily because of this particular incident.

Gorilla like to watch telemavision!

 

[fatness]

Is the Dolphins offensive line actually better without Richie Incognito and Jonathan Martin? It wouldn't seem that way logically, especially with Incognito. But in two measurable areas _ sacks and rushing average _ this unit has played better since those two departed.

Adding left tackle Bryant McKinnie a week before Martin left was a huge variable that paid dividends, but keep in mind Miami allowed six sacks (against New England) in the one game that McKinnie, Martin and Incognito played together. But the Dolphins have been better off playing Tyson Clabo than Martin at right tackle, which probably wouldn't have happened if Martin hadn't fled.

Just look at the numbers since the two BullyGate protagonists left. In the first seven games, with Martin and Incognito starting, the Dolphins allowed 32 sacks (4.6 per game) and ran for 4.1 yards per carry.

Conversely, in the past six games (Martin skipped all six and Incognito missed all but part of the first half of the Bengals game), the Dolphins allowed 16 sacks, including one against Incognito (that's 2.7 per game) and ran for 4.4 yards per carry.

Then there's this: Martin allowed seven sacks in 458 snaps _ six games at left tackle, one at right. Conversely, McKinnie has allowed only three sacks in 479 snaps since coming to the Dolphins from Baltimore. And Clabo _ who gave up eight sacks in his first six games _ has allowed three in his past six.

Also, Incognito permitted six sacks, most among NFL guards. Since he left, Dolphins left guards have allowed only two: one by Nate Garner and one by Sam Brenner in his 187 snaps.

http://www.sacbee.com/2013/12/10/5989765/dolphins-offensive-line-performing.html

 

[Bob Magaw]

Bob - Always appreciate your thoughtful posts.

Regarding point 2 - Not so sure there are all that many levels here. At least not based upon what has been shared with the public. There may prove to be, but on the surface, we may simply have an emotionally troubled young man, who snapped. I am sure Richie had something to do with him snapping, but I am not sure that it was so egregious to have warranted the reaction. Regarding relating this to bountygate/spygate...I think its quite different. In those cases, there were whistle blowers, but they were not necessarily singular "victims" like Martin has portrayed himself to be. There were franchises effected by the cheating, and players that were hurt on the field by the bounties...but those were not the (for sake of a better term) plaintiffs necessarily in those cases. In this case, it is one person making accusations against a team and league. I feel like its just different.

Regarding point 4 - I don't see how him not sharing those records will help him in a lawsuit. I am not a lawyer, but I do watch a lot of TV...I think the defendants (The NFL) will have access to those records if they want them. And if Martin wants to use them as evidence, it will have to be entered as evidence for the defendants to see. At least that's what I remember from Law and Order. Agreed that some commentary from a legal professional would benefit us on this point. At any rate, it seems very strange that he makes these accusations, then refuses to cooperate with the guy that is sent in to respond to his accusations. It stinks as far as I'm concerned. A lot of talk about people not seeing the fire behind the smoke...I think that applies here. There is some smoke.

Point 5 - Its semantics, but I don't think Ireland allegedly told Martin to punch Richie. I think, if I remember correctly that he allegedly told his agent to tell him to "stand up" to Richie. If I am remembering correctly, there is a significant difference there. I am by the way, no fan of Ireland. I'd like to see him gone. But not necessarily because of this particular incident.

* mongo like columbo, elementary and BBCs sherlock holmes!

thanx, chuck... likewise.

by levels and complex, i meant the many bits of news that were leaked out over time (and of different quality, some mere innuendo - knowing my ongoing participation, presence and consistent stance from near the beginning, you can see how i might emphasize a story like the cleeland one over richie saying it was from a place of love in the glazer interview - but i'm not negating or ridiculing your POV - if you look, i conceded martin MAYBE contributed more than a fair share or responsibility, but richie DEFINITELY has a deeply troubled and disturbing history, and on the basis of those two distinct statuses, i have taken a stronger position against incognito, but opted to wait for the findings with martin - if the worst is true, i'd acknowledge disappointment in his actions, though condemn might be a harsh indictment, if allegations of mental/emotional issues later surface, and incognito may have contributed to them (some things we may never know for sure, obviously - if richie in some way played a role in some kind of imbalance or instability or breakdown - not everybody would refer to that process as wussification - not to say you would have or meant or intended that in this context, i assume you would have been referring to if he was making everything up and not actually injured or harmed, psychologically or otherwise). some may remember everything, others no, that is what the summation/reminder was intended for... by many and complex, i'm referring to not just the few facts or items surrounding the allegations between the two principals, but also things like the cleeland report, police reports from golf courses, etc. BTW, kalamazoo's summation was more thorough and wide ranging in its forensic historical detail, and was far better as a summation for that reason... i just fired off a few thoughts that came to mind as i have done before at times if it seems like there is something relevant to say about how recent news might be interpreted, and also suggest some ideas about possible longer range implications and consequences.

on opting to retain phone records, a few things. i meant the NFL wouldn't have time to look at them NOW and prepare long in advance to craft a strategy. that is probably weak, maybe f. lee bailey could look at them in 30 seconds and gave them fully dissected? you prompted a few other thoughts though. if the NFL had them NOW, they would be in a better position to tell how damaging they are. this way, they won't have that knowledge in advance if they are approached by martin's side for a preemptive settlement. once the phone records were in a trial, i think they would enter the public domain, a place the NFL may prefer they be kept out of. if they don't settle without that knowledge, and it escalates to a trial, the league could discover to their horror there is worse stuff (very much) not from a place of love, and they could be in a position where they need to settle for an even larger amount. maybe it is legal chicken. if martin is making it all up, and letting the NFL see that in advance, they may conclude legal action would have no merit and be frivolous, and take their chances with a trial. this way, there is more leverage if they don't know. note that isn't the same thing as saying nothing happened. just we don't know. the league doesn't know. that is the point. some may see that as sneaky and conniving. it might be like not showing your cards in a poker hand. if martin is unable to work in the NFL again through actions that may come out in the findings as being not all from him but at least partly from incognito, too, a league employee, i can see why he might want to prioritize doing what is right for his interests than what is best for the league.

as far as the semantics, i think it was first reported that ireland said "martin should have punched him. shortly after, came a statement that somewhat smacked of damage control spin to me, but it was reported that he "actually" said, why didn't you punch him... meaning, could it really have been that bad. in these senses, semantically i can see the difference between you should have punched richie, and why didn't you punch richie, and the first would be worse. note, though, i did word it in the second sense, which is my recollection of how the clarification/retraction was explained and worded. but the thread should correct that if i'm mistaken... i'm using more of the actual words as i remember them. it appears you are inserting a different word that carries a functionally similar meaning. part of the point of this, is two things, i did try to be faithful to the language as i recalled it where it was left LAST by miami's post news break explanation... and the two different senses of the originally reported but possibly wrong phrasing, and their explanation of a slightly different phrasing... it IS and WAS a little confusing... when people first heard the explanation, did they instantly understand all its meanings? so they might have been poorly chosen even if originally intended and meant in the less damaging second sense. even in the second sense, martin and/or his agent may have misinterpreted them in the heat of the moment and in real time... if in fact it was screamingly obvious how different the senses were, if you think about it, it probably wouldn't have been necessary to EXPLAIN IT IN A PRESS CONFERENCE! and in either sense, i think many could see how it might not come off as sensitive in response to serious allegations of internal wrong doing. but that is par for the course for a dude who asked dez bryant if his mother was a prostitute, potentially angering prospective african american free agents from coming to the team, causing self-inflicted damage to the team from a high level where this foolishness NEVER should have come up as a source of ridicule and dishonor to the team. not sure if the connection has been made that those who claim there is no evidence of institutional racism and harrassment in the organization based on richie (on the grounds that incognito was an "honorary" by mutual consent in the locker room), have some splainin to do about ireland. it sounds like with dez, in a real sense, was harrassed on a racist level, by one of the highest level employees and representatives of the dolphins organization. i would never say this about any FBG mssg board member (even if it sometimes seems warranted when some elements call people stupid unprovoked), but ireland is an idiot and monstrously ignorant/insensitive if he didn't know that is wrong in any sense, but also in failing to see how that could be construed as racist. how are the dolphins going to fix things organizationally if, absurdly, their de facto leader is himself helping to institutionalize them? how can they be removed unless rooted out at the source... a meaningful investigation will follow the evidence wherever it leads, not only bottom up, but from a top down direction as well.

 

[fatness]

Can people stop encouraging Bob to post?

TIA

Are you being bullied?