Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (1 Viewer)

[MoveToSkypager]

MTS -

I could care less if anyone calls you names. Its nothing personal. I think you are a troll. I find some of your posts amusing, and I am not at all in any way bothered by them. I would never ignore you, because you occasionally make me laugh. I don't get the impression that you really believe much of what you post, but rather that you most often post just to stir the pot or get a reaction. Its easy to get a reaction from the Fins fans on this topic, so you are going after the low hanging fruit - as I would if my goal was to get a strong reaction. I respect your approach as a troll.

You could care less? How much less?

Right, so it's fine if someone that you agree with calls people names, but it's not cool if someone you disagree with calls people names. That's how your entire outlook works.

Nice try...not gonna bite though. Troll someone who will give you the responses you are looking for. That is what makes you a talented troll. This was hackish work on your part.

I don't even know why you are doing this. A while back you asked me for a sincere opinion and I gave it. I then asked you for a response but you gave canned answers. Now all you do is call me names. Kinda crappy, dude.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Well run dry on things to defend your POV on all this?

You didn't tell us why it's OK with you for Chuck to post about the golf course incident, but you object to me posting about it.

But what does that golf incident in 2012 have anything to do with what happened in the lunch room as Martin left? Do you really think that event was rolling thru his head as he marched out? Do you think Martin suffered from Inc doing this in 2012? What is the fan base missing here that is so obvious to a few of you?

You still didn't tell us why.

MOP said he isn't posting anymore until there is real news.

or tomorrow, whichever comes first.

 

[Hoss Style]

Sometimes this thread is amusing. Sometimes it gets repetitive. But then it goes back to being amusing again.

By the way - that strip club photo helps us understand what happened as much as only reading Martin's half of the texts - absolutely none, because we know the context of neither.

Let me see every text on Martin and Incognito's side, then I can form an opinion. Let me see who was with Martin at the strip club, why he was there and what happened to get him there, then I can form an opinion.

Right now I see - happy big, rich guy with naked women on him. He's smiling. No surprise here.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Sometimes this thread is amusing. Sometimes it gets repetitive. But then it goes back to being amusing again.

By the way - that strip club photo helps us understand what happened as much as only reading Martin's half of the texts - absolutely none, because we know the context of neither.

Let me see every text on Martin and Incognito's side, then I can form an opinion. Let me see who was with Martin at the strip club, why he was there and what happened to get him there, then I can form an opinion.

Right now I see - happy big, rich guy with naked women on him. He's smiling. No surprise here.

I hear you. Its not the end all be all as far as news. However, the one thing it eliminates in my opinion is the thought that that big smiling happy guy is morally or ethically opposed to the idea of a strip club. If he was and he voiced this, I could see how having OL meetings in a strip club could be painted as hazing/bullying. That doesnt look like a guy who is morally opposed to strippers though, and the accounts of his texts with regard to the strip club seem to support this. You cant claim to be wronged by having meetings there, then also send texts talking about how much you love it there and how you want to take your buddies there where they are in town. That would be another case of hypocrisy. It does not end the conversation, but in my opinion it takes some of the juice out of that particular point of argument on JM's side.

He can try to say that he didnt like it because he wasnt improving by being at meetings there (weak, but ok), but that is not bullying or hazing. Its just arguably a bad idea for a meeting location. My company had a serious meeting at Dave and Busters, and I thought it was a bad location for a serious meeting. I didnt hire a lawyer afterwards. And I did enjoy the Ski Ball.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

And I did enjoy the Ski Ball.

Is a Ski Ball a dance where you must dress in ski related clothing, or black tie skiing event? Either way, it sounds dangerous.

 

[KCitons]

Sometimes this thread is amusing. Sometimes it gets repetitive. But then it goes back to being amusing again.

By the way - that strip club photo helps us understand what happened as much as only reading Martin's half of the texts - absolutely none, because we know the context of neither.

Let me see every text on Martin and Incognito's side, then I can form an opinion. Let me see who was with Martin at the strip club, why he was there and what happened to get him there, then I can form an opinion.

Right now I see - happy big, rich guy with naked women on him. He's smiling. No surprise here.

I hear you. Its not the end all be all as far as news. However, the one thing it eliminates in my opinion is the thought that that big smiling happy guy is morally or ethically opposed to the idea of a strip club. If he was and he voiced this, I could see how having OL meetings in a strip club could be painted as hazing/bullying. That doesnt look like a guy who is morally opposed to strippers though, and the accounts of his texts with regard to the strip club seem to support this. You cant claim to be wronged by having meetings there, then also send texts talking about how much you love it there and how you want to take your buddies there where they are in town. That would be another case of hypocrisy. It does not end the conversation, but in my opinion it takes some of the juice out of that particular point of argument on JM's side.

He can try to say that he didnt like it because he wasnt improving by being at meetings there (weak, but ok), but that is not bullying or hazing. Its just arguably a bad idea for a meeting location. My company had a serious meeting at Dave and Busters, and I thought it was a bad location for a serious meeting. I didnt hire a lawyer afterwards. And I did enjoy the Ski Ball.

Unless he feels the time could be better spent. Say, in the weight room or film room. If he chooses to forgo the strip club, then he is subject to a fine. While I wouldn't classify this as bullying and i certainly wouldn't call it hazing, it is something that the NFL doesn't want to condone.

Again, if you're JM and you're struggling to get better, your teammates are forcing you to go to the strip club, and now the team just signed a LT that is probably going to take your starting spot. Wouldn't you feel like you are in a no win situation?

Dolphins fans are a fickle group, you bag on Martin for being a horrible player, then throw him under the bus if he goes against the culture that made him what he is.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Sometimes this thread is amusing. Sometimes it gets repetitive. But then it goes back to being amusing again.

By the way - that strip club photo helps us understand what happened as much as only reading Martin's half of the texts - absolutely none, because we know the context of neither.

Let me see every text on Martin and Incognito's side, then I can form an opinion. Let me see who was with Martin at the strip club, why he was there and what happened to get him there, then I can form an opinion.

Right now I see - happy big, rich guy with naked women on him. He's smiling. No surprise here.

I hear you. Its not the end all be all as far as news. However, the one thing it eliminates in my opinion is the thought that that big smiling happy guy is morally or ethically opposed to the idea of a strip club. If he was and he voiced this, I could see how having OL meetings in a strip club could be painted as hazing/bullying. That doesnt look like a guy who is morally opposed to strippers though, and the accounts of his texts with regard to the strip club seem to support this. You cant claim to be wronged by having meetings there, then also send texts talking about how much you love it there and how you want to take your buddies there where they are in town. That would be another case of hypocrisy. It does not end the conversation, but in my opinion it takes some of the juice out of that particular point of argument on JM's side.

He can try to say that he didnt like it because he wasnt improving by being at meetings there (weak, but ok), but that is not bullying or hazing. Its just arguably a bad idea for a meeting location. My company had a serious meeting at Dave and Busters, and I thought it was a bad location for a serious meeting. I didnt hire a lawyer afterwards. And I did enjoy the Ski Ball.

Unless he feels the time could be better spent. Say, in the weight room or film room. If he chooses to forgo the strip club, then he is subject to a fine. While I wouldn't classify this as bullying and i certainly wouldn't call it hazing, it is something that the NFL doesn't want to condone.

Again, if you're JM and you're struggling to get better, your teammates are forcing you to go to the strip club, and now the team just signed a LT that is probably going to take your starting spot. Wouldn't you feel like you are in a no win situation?

Dolphins fans are a fickle group, you bag on Martin for being a horrible player, then throw him under the bus if he goes against the culture that made him what he is.

Dont mistake my post for condoning the meetings at the strip club. I didnt even really approve of my meeting at Dave and Busters. Time and place for everything. However, I never felt that the strip club was a big deal in this case. I feel that it is even less of a big deal now. Just a bad decision in a long line of bad decisions by Richie. But not worthy of even being mentioned in a case against the team.

As an aside - Richie himself, and Mike Pouncey were both pro bowl players that also attended the same meetings in the same locations, so it is possible to see naked women on a Tuesday AND block people on Sunday. I think you are reaching personally.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Bias is a noun, or at times a verb. The adjective form is "biased". Not bad for a knuckle-dragger, huh?

 

[KCitons]

Pouncey and Incognito are veteran offensive linemen. Going to a strip club, instead of watching film or lifting, may be OK for them. If it was the answer for making players better, then every team would be holding OL meetings at strip clubs. But, based on Pacman Jone's history at strip clubs, it doesn't seem to help a players career. Also, don't confuse free time with "work" time. What I am talking about is "work" time spent at a strip club.

Imagine if this case does go to court. If Martin can show proof that the OL meetings were held at a strip club and those choosing not to attend were subject to fines, what judge or jury is going to think this is OK in any workplace? Martin will also claim that he was trying to improve as a player, but the leadership council the Dolphins created, was keeping him from watching film or lifting weights.

This is where Dolphins fans jump on Martin for being weak. They also complain that he didn't attend the off season workouts. Would it be so difficult for lawyers to paint a picture of Martin trying to distance himself from a work environment that wasn't making him a better player?

I think people are looking for one big thing to make or break Martin's case. It's going to be an accumulation of things that led to him tossing his tray.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Pouncey and Incognito are veteran offensive linemen. Going to a strip club, instead of watching film or lifting, may be OK for them. If it was the answer for making players better, then every team would be holding OL meetings at strip clubs. But, based on Pacman Jone's history at strip clubs, it doesn't seem to help a players career. Also, don't confuse free time with "work" time. What I am talking about is "work" time spent at a strip club.

Imagine if this case does go to court. If Martin can show proof that the OL meetings were held at a strip club and those choosing not to attend were subject to fines, what judge or jury is going to think this is OK in any workplace? Martin will also claim that he was trying to improve as a player, but the leadership council the Dolphins created, was keeping him from watching film or lifting weights.

This is where Dolphins fans jump on Martin for being weak. They also complain that he didn't attend the off season workouts. Would it be so difficult for lawyers to paint a picture of Martin trying to distance himself from a work environment that wasn't making him a better player?

I think people are looking for one big thing to make or break Martin's case. It's going to be an accumulation of things that led to him tossing his tray.

Yeah...him not attending the voluntary meetings with every other OL on the team doesn't really paint the picture you are trying to paint here that JM was overly concerned about getting better at his craft. I have never played in the NFL and don't claim to know much about how OL meeting are conducted, but I would think that OL meetings are separate from the time that you would be lifting weights. Definitely should have been watching film though. I assume Richie's idea was that it was a bonding experience for them. Weak and stupid, but not criminal. Not hazing. Not bullying. Just dumb.

Again, people who have dug their heels into this thing will want to find any excuse and anyone to blame other than the "victim". It is very consistent. You want to excuse him for not attending offseason workouts with his teammates, but sympathize with him for having to have meetings at a strip club rather than a different environment where he could get better as a player. Well, offseason workouts are a great time to lift weights, watch film, and get better. He skipped those. Maybe Mary Jane had him glued to his couch. That would be somebody else's fault too though.

 

[KCitons]

Do you have any proof of the "Mary Jane" quote actually being from Martin? You're taking here-say as fact. Much like I showed that picture can be doctored pretty easily.

This is where I go back to your bias as a Dolphins fan. You are unable to look at this with an open mind. Using your own words, you put victim in quotes. Implying that Martin can't be a real victim. You keep stating that you are open minded, but you first post in this thread you labeled Martin as not being tough enough to play in the NFL.

Is it so hard to see that the Dolphins locker room, under the leadership of Incognito, is not an ideal environment for players to improve? Facts have already showed that King Richie was harassing Dolphin employees and holding meetings at a strip club. I wonder what else was going on that we don't know. Why would Martin want to subject himself to that environment? Especially on a voluntary basis. You state that the off season workouts would make him better, I could argue that it wouldn't.

You keep looking at this from a Dolphins fan perspective. I understand that. But, I have no horse in this race. If he chooses to sue, I see Martin's lawyers building a case that establishes the Dolphins locker room as a hostile work environment. It's a pretty well know fact, that voluntary off season workouts aren't necessarily voluntary. So you can establish a feeling of the player being forced into this environment. Add in the fact that the NFL forces players to enter a draft and are forced to play for whatever team drafts them. Lawyers could play off the forced selection process, yet highlight the differences from other teams locker rooms. Players and coaches from other teams have stated that this is not the culture in their locker room. Lastly, they paint a picture of the Dolphins organization condoning this behaviour by placing Incognito in a leadership position. And, allowing him to remain in that position even after a 2012 sexual assault case.

From there the strip club fines, texts, etc will need to be taken into context. But, if Martin's lawyers introduce 10 incidents during trial, they only need one be true to win their case.

Take all of these things and apply them to any other multi-billion dollar corporation. Being the NFL is no longer an excuse.

Ultimately, we don't know if Martin intends to sue. I think he has a good chance to win. Which makes you wonder what the NFL and teams will do.

Honest question Chuck, if you were the only person that knew what was going on. (sex assault, employee harassment, texts, strip club meetings, etc) would you support it 100%?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Do you have any proof of the "Mary Jane" quote actually being from Martin? You're taking here-say as fact. Much like I showed that picture can be doctored pretty easily.

This is where I go back to your bias as a Dolphins fan. You are unable to look at this with an open mind. Using your own words, you put victim in quotes. Implying that Martin can't be a real victim. You keep stating that you are open minded, but you first post in this thread you labeled Martin as not being tough enough to play in the NFL.

Is it so hard to see that the Dolphins locker room, under the leadership of Incognito, is not an ideal environment for players to improve? Facts have already showed that King Richie was harassing Dolphin employees and holding meetings at a strip club. I wonder what else was going on that we don't know. Why would Martin want to subject himself to that environment? Especially on a voluntary basis. You state that the off season workouts would make him better, I could argue that it wouldn't.

You keep looking at this from a Dolphins fan perspective. I understand that. But, I have no horse in this race. If he chooses to sue, I see Martin's lawyers building a case that establishes the Dolphins locker room as a hostile work environment. It's a pretty well know fact, that voluntary off season workouts aren't necessarily voluntary. So you can establish a feeling of the player being forced into this environment. Add in the fact that the NFL forces players to enter a draft and are forced to play for whatever team drafts them. Lawyers could play off the forced selection process, yet highlight the differences from other teams locker rooms. Players and coaches from other teams have stated that this is not the culture in their locker room. Lastly, they paint a picture of the Dolphins organization condoning this behaviour by placing Incognito in a leadership position. And, allowing him to remain in that position even after a 2012 sexual assault case.

From there the strip club fines, texts, etc will need to be taken into context. But, if Martin's lawyers introduce 10 incidents during trial, they only need one be true to win their case.

Take all of these things and apply them to any other multi-billion dollar corporation. Being the NFL is no longer an excuse.

Ultimately, we don't know if Martin intends to sue. I think he has a good chance to win. Which makes you wonder what the NFL and teams will do.

Honest question Chuck, if you were the only person that knew what was going on. (sex assault, employee harassment, texts, strip club meetings, etc) would you support it 100%?

How am I taking heresay as fact any more than you are? I have no proof of that quote being from Martin, and frankly, I don't really care. I think Mary Jane should be legalized and not tested for in pro sports. But the reality is, we have almost no hard "facts" to go on here.

You call it a fact that he berated a team employee. Is that not heresay? I believe it, because it is logical, but how is that a fact any more than the strip club stuff? Feel free to pick and chose what can be called fact as it supports your position as the martyr for all victims of any kind. Even those that probably aren't.

"Victim" in quotes makes me closed minded now, huh? Because I don't accept that he absolutely is a victim, I am closed minded. Unreal. It is the exact opposite.

I am also closed minded because I don't think Martin is tough enough to play in the NFL? Seriously, KC? You seem to just want to find any ridiculous reason to label me, and Dolphins fans in general. Fine - feel free. Its ridiculous though. Having an opinion does not make one closed minded. However, thinking that you can spin anything you want to create a label for someone or a group of people is most definitely irresponsible. Entire nations have crumbled from that kind of irresponsibility.

Blah, blah, blah, hostile environment. blah, blah, blah. He was called a weirdo by his peers. Wahhhhh. Booo friggin hooo. His friends pulled lunchroom pranks on him. Whoa, whoa whoa is me! He was drafted by an NFL team...The humanity! The nerve of that team to draft him! Hostile I tell you....HOSTILE! Plus, who serves meatloaf for lunch! Waaaaaaaah!

Please. Grown men that are tough enough to play in the NFL don't act like that. There have been about 80+ other players that spent time in that locker room this season. Nobody else seemed to have an issue, except your boy. In fact, those that spoke on the issue completely contradicted the notion that the locker room was hostile. That is irrelevant? Or you will make an excuse as to why that happened, because it doesn't support your weak, weak, and getting weaker position.

See all that false outrage? That's what everyone else sees every time you post that self-righteous, holier than thou garbage from your mountaintop of superiority. Only some people are too blinded by their preconceived notions to see through it. Or don't want to.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Do you have any proof of the "Mary Jane" quote actually being from Martin? You're taking here-say as fact. Much like I showed that picture can be doctored pretty easily.

This is where I go back to your bias as a Dolphins fan. You are unable to look at this with an open mind. Using your own words, you put victim in quotes. Implying that Martin can't be a real victim. You keep stating that you are open minded, but you first post in this thread you labeled Martin as not being tough enough to play in the NFL.

Is it so hard to see that the Dolphins locker room, under the leadership of Incognito, is not an ideal environment for players to improve? Facts have already showed that King Richie was harassing Dolphin employees and holding meetings at a strip club. I wonder what else was going on that we don't know. Why would Martin want to subject himself to that environment? Especially on a voluntary basis. You state that the off season workouts would make him better, I could argue that it wouldn't.

You keep looking at this from a Dolphins fan perspective. I understand that. But, I have no horse in this race. If he chooses to sue, I see Martin's lawyers building a case that establishes the Dolphins locker room as a hostile work environment. It's a pretty well know fact, that voluntary off season workouts aren't necessarily voluntary. So you can establish a feeling of the player being forced into this environment. Add in the fact that the NFL forces players to enter a draft and are forced to play for whatever team drafts them. Lawyers could play off the forced selection process, yet highlight the differences from other teams locker rooms. Players and coaches from other teams have stated that this is not the culture in their locker room. Lastly, they paint a picture of the Dolphins organization condoning this behaviour by placing Incognito in a leadership position. And, allowing him to remain in that position even after a 2012 sexual assault case.

From there the strip club fines, texts, etc will need to be taken into context. But, if Martin's lawyers introduce 10 incidents during trial, they only need one be true to win their case.

Take all of these things and apply them to any other multi-billion dollar corporation. Being the NFL is no longer an excuse.

Ultimately, we don't know if Martin intends to sue. I think he has a good chance to win. Which makes you wonder what the NFL and teams will do.

Honest question Chuck, if you were the only person that knew what was going on. (sex assault, employee harassment, texts, strip club meetings, etc) would you support it 100%?

Before you start berating me for ignoring this extremely poignant and powerful question:

If I knew about the sexual assault, I would have cut Richie.

The employee harassment is BS. But I would have listened to the complaints before making a determination. Unfortunately, JM did not make that possible.

The texts are BS.

The strip club meetings are BS. But I would have suggested they change venues.

 

[KCitons]

Do you have any proof of the "Mary Jane" quote actually being from Martin? You're taking here-say as fact. Much like I showed that picture can be doctored pretty easily.

This is where I go back to your bias as a Dolphins fan. You are unable to look at this with an open mind. Using your own words, you put victim in quotes. Implying that Martin can't be a real victim. You keep stating that you are open minded, but you first post in this thread you labeled Martin as not being tough enough to play in the NFL.

Is it so hard to see that the Dolphins locker room, under the leadership of Incognito, is not an ideal environment for players to improve? Facts have already showed that King Richie was harassing Dolphin employees and holding meetings at a strip club. I wonder what else was going on that we don't know. Why would Martin want to subject himself to that environment? Especially on a voluntary basis. You state that the off season workouts would make him better, I could argue that it wouldn't.

You keep looking at this from a Dolphins fan perspective. I understand that. But, I have no horse in this race. If he chooses to sue, I see Martin's lawyers building a case that establishes the Dolphins locker room as a hostile work environment. It's a pretty well know fact, that voluntary off season workouts aren't necessarily voluntary. So you can establish a feeling of the player being forced into this environment. Add in the fact that the NFL forces players to enter a draft and are forced to play for whatever team drafts them. Lawyers could play off the forced selection process, yet highlight the differences from other teams locker rooms. Players and coaches from other teams have stated that this is not the culture in their locker room. Lastly, they paint a picture of the Dolphins organization condoning this behaviour by placing Incognito in a leadership position. And, allowing him to remain in that position even after a 2012 sexual assault case.

From there the strip club fines, texts, etc will need to be taken into context. But, if Martin's lawyers introduce 10 incidents during trial, they only need one be true to win their case.

Take all of these things and apply them to any other multi-billion dollar corporation. Being the NFL is no longer an excuse.

Ultimately, we don't know if Martin intends to sue. I think he has a good chance to win. Which makes you wonder what the NFL and teams will do.

Honest question Chuck, if you were the only person that knew what was going on. (sex assault, employee harassment, texts, strip club meetings, etc) would you support it 100%?

Before you start berating me for ignoring this extremely poignant and powerful question:

If I knew about the sexual assault, I would have cut Richie.

We know the sexual assault as fact. Yet the Dolphins didn't cut Richie. Does this show lack of institutional control, or a willingness to look the other way when a Pro Bowl player slips up.

The employee harassment is BS. But I would have listened to the complaints before making a determination. Unfortunately, JM did not make that possible.

I believe the information about the locker room employee being harassed was leaked during the Wells interviews. (again, it's not fact. But has greater legs that your Mary Jane quote)

Also, there have been reports of Martin, or Martin's agent speaking to Ireland. Why do you naturally assume that Martin didn't make an effort?

The texts are BS.

Why, because you have all the texts and know exactly the context?

The strip club meetings are BS. But I would have suggested they change venues.

Why are the meetings BS? If you think they are BS, couldn't a player think the same thing?

Still find it funny that you think I am supporting Martin blindly. I want to know exactly what he did or didn't do. But, based on what we know about the way the Dolphins locker room was being run, it's ridiculous to dismiss this as being entirely based on Martin being weak.

Which is what you have done from the start.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Do you have any proof of the "Mary Jane" quote actually being from Martin? You're taking here-say as fact. Much like I showed that picture can be doctored pretty easily.

This is where I go back to your bias as a Dolphins fan. You are unable to look at this with an open mind. Using your own words, you put victim in quotes. Implying that Martin can't be a real victim. You keep stating that you are open minded, but you first post in this thread you labeled Martin as not being tough enough to play in the NFL.

Is it so hard to see that the Dolphins locker room, under the leadership of Incognito, is not an ideal environment for players to improve? Facts have already showed that King Richie was harassing Dolphin employees and holding meetings at a strip club. I wonder what else was going on that we don't know. Why would Martin want to subject himself to that environment? Especially on a voluntary basis. You state that the off season workouts would make him better, I could argue that it wouldn't.

You keep looking at this from a Dolphins fan perspective. I understand that. But, I have no horse in this race. If he chooses to sue, I see Martin's lawyers building a case that establishes the Dolphins locker room as a hostile work environment. It's a pretty well know fact, that voluntary off season workouts aren't necessarily voluntary. So you can establish a feeling of the player being forced into this environment. Add in the fact that the NFL forces players to enter a draft and are forced to play for whatever team drafts them. Lawyers could play off the forced selection process, yet highlight the differences from other teams locker rooms. Players and coaches from other teams have stated that this is not the culture in their locker room. Lastly, they paint a picture of the Dolphins organization condoning this behaviour by placing Incognito in a leadership position. And, allowing him to remain in that position even after a 2012 sexual assault case.

From there the strip club fines, texts, etc will need to be taken into context. But, if Martin's lawyers introduce 10 incidents during trial, they only need one be true to win their case.

Take all of these things and apply them to any other multi-billion dollar corporation. Being the NFL is no longer an excuse.

Ultimately, we don't know if Martin intends to sue. I think he has a good chance to win. Which makes you wonder what the NFL and teams will do.

Honest question Chuck, if you were the only person that knew what was going on. (sex assault, employee harassment, texts, strip club meetings, etc) would you support it 100%?

Before you start berating me for ignoring this extremely poignant and powerful question:

If I knew about the sexual assault, I would have cut Richie.

We know the sexual assault as fact. Yet the Dolphins didn't cut Richie. Does this show lack of institutional control, or a willingness to look the other way when a Pro Bowl player slips up.

The employee harassment is BS. But I would have listened to the complaints before making a determination. Unfortunately, JM did not make that possible.

I believe the information about the locker room employee being harassed was leaked during the Wells interviews. (again, it's not fact. But has greater legs that your Mary Jane quote)

Also, there have been reports of Martin, or Martin's agent speaking to Ireland. Why do you naturally assume that Martin didn't make an effort?

The texts are BS.

Why, because you have all the texts and know exactly the context?

The strip club meetings are BS. But I would have suggested they change venues.

Why are the meetings BS? If you think they are BS, couldn't a player think the same thing?

Still find it funny that you think I am supporting Martin blindly. I want to know exactly what he did or didn't do. But, based on what we know about the way the Dolphins locker room was being run, it's ridiculous to dismiss this as being entirely based on Martin being weak.

Which is what you have done from the start.

I don't disagree with you about the decision not to cut Richie. Don't know why you are bringing it back up after I said I would have cut him. Didn't you throw a "beating a dead horse" emoticon at me earlier?

From the leaked texts, which I assume are the worst since his lawyer was likely trying to paint the worst picture possible, I am not personally offended. You asked me my opinion. What, do you want me to somehow gain access to information that is not available before I answer your silly question? I don't know what you expected when you asked the question, but I can only address your question based upon what I do know.

The meetings at the strip club don't bother me. I have said as much a few times in the last 24 hours. Beating a dead horse again. I agree with you that the time probably could have been better spent in a meeting room, but I don't think there is some magical tie between the strip club meetings and Jonathan Martin not being able to block anybody. You clearly see this as another opportunity to blame someone else for your boy's failures. Good for you. More imaginary fuel for your imaginary fire.

 

[KCitons]

Chuck, I am only using the facts as we know them.

1 - The strip club meetings and and the sexual assault at the golf course are facts we know about. Common sense would tell you that the Dolphins locker room was lacking when it came to control. Remember Incognito was on the Leadership Council. Again, another fact.

2 - Now, by comparison, Martin has been a less than stellar offensive lineman for the Dolphins. He threw down his tray and walked out on the team. He has since made claims that have yet to be substantiated.

These are the facts. Would anyone other than a Dolphin fan side blindly side with #1 and persecute #2? This is the only reason you and I disagree. You've labeled Martin from the beginning.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Do you have any proof of the "Mary Jane" quote actually being from Martin? You're taking here-say as fact. Much like I showed that picture can be doctored pretty easily.

This is where I go back to your bias as a Dolphins fan. You are unable to look at this with an open mind. Using your own words, you put victim in quotes. Implying that Martin can't be a real victim. You keep stating that you are open minded, but you first post in this thread you labeled Martin as not being tough enough to play in the NFL.

Is it so hard to see that the Dolphins locker room, under the leadership of Incognito, is not an ideal environment for players to improve? Facts have already showed that King Richie was harassing Dolphin employees and holding meetings at a strip club. I wonder what else was going on that we don't know. Why would Martin want to subject himself to that environment? Especially on a voluntary basis. You state that the off season workouts would make him better, I could argue that it wouldn't.

You keep looking at this from a Dolphins fan perspective. I understand that. But, I have no horse in this race. If he chooses to sue, I see Martin's lawyers building a case that establishes the Dolphins locker room as a hostile work environment. It's a pretty well know fact, that voluntary off season workouts aren't necessarily voluntary. So you can establish a feeling of the player being forced into this environment. Add in the fact that the NFL forces players to enter a draft and are forced to play for whatever team drafts them. Lawyers could play off the forced selection process, yet highlight the differences from other teams locker rooms. Players and coaches from other teams have stated that this is not the culture in their locker room. Lastly, they paint a picture of the Dolphins organization condoning this behaviour by placing Incognito in a leadership position. And, allowing him to remain in that position even after a 2012 sexual assault case.

From there the strip club fines, texts, etc will need to be taken into context. But, if Martin's lawyers introduce 10 incidents during trial, they only need one be true to win their case.

Take all of these things and apply them to any other multi-billion dollar corporation. Being the NFL is no longer an excuse.

Ultimately, we don't know if Martin intends to sue. I think he has a good chance to win. Which makes you wonder what the NFL and teams will do.

Honest question Chuck, if you were the only person that knew what was going on. (sex assault, employee harassment, texts, strip club meetings, etc) would you support it 100%?

Before you start berating me for ignoring this extremely poignant and powerful question:

If I knew about the sexual assault, I would have cut Richie.

We know the sexual assault as fact. Yet the Dolphins didn't cut Richie. Does this show lack of institutional control, or a willingness to look the other way when a Pro Bowl player slips up.

The employee harassment is BS. But I would have listened to the complaints before making a determination. Unfortunately, JM did not make that possible.

I believe the information about the locker room employee being harassed was leaked during the Wells interviews. (again, it's not fact. But has greater legs that your Mary Jane quote)

Also, there have been reports of Martin, or Martin's agent speaking to Ireland. Why do you naturally assume that Martin didn't make an effort?

The texts are BS.

Why, because you have all the texts and know exactly the context?

The strip club meetings are BS. But I would have suggested they change venues.

Why are the meetings BS? If you think they are BS, couldn't a player think the same thing?

Still find it funny that you think I am supporting Martin blindly. I want to know exactly what he did or didn't do. But, based on what we know about the way the Dolphins locker room was being run, it's ridiculous to dismiss this as being entirely based on Martin being weak.

Which is what you have done from the start.

I disagree. The only person who has expressed an issue with the way the locker room was being run is the guy who threw his lunch tray and quit the team. If you blindly accept that his opinion on the locker room trumps every other opinion that has been expressed, then you can draw the conclusion above.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Chuck, I am only using the facts as we know them.

1 - The strip club meetings and and the sexual assault at the golf course are facts we know about. Common sense would tell you that the Dolphins locker room was lacking when it came to control. Remember Incognito was on the Leadership Council. Again, another fact.

2 - Now, by comparison, Martin has been a less than stellar offensive lineman for the Dolphins. He threw down his tray and walked out on the team. He has since made claims that have yet to be substantiated.

These are the facts. Would anyone other than a Dolphin fan side blindly side with #1 and persecute #2? This is the only reason you and I disagree. You've labeled Martin from the beginning.

I still stand by my original stance on Martin. Frankly, it is surprising to me at this point that others are unable to see that point of view at least as a possibility.

I also don't side with Richie, as has been stated numerous times, but clearly not enough to hit home I guess. I am glad both of them are gone. Not sure what your point is.

 

[KCitons]

Do you have any proof of the "Mary Jane" quote actually being from Martin? You're taking here-say as fact. Much like I showed that picture can be doctored pretty easily.

This is where I go back to your bias as a Dolphins fan. You are unable to look at this with an open mind. Using your own words, you put victim in quotes. Implying that Martin can't be a real victim. You keep stating that you are open minded, but you first post in this thread you labeled Martin as not being tough enough to play in the NFL.

Is it so hard to see that the Dolphins locker room, under the leadership of Incognito, is not an ideal environment for players to improve? Facts have already showed that King Richie was harassing Dolphin employees and holding meetings at a strip club. I wonder what else was going on that we don't know. Why would Martin want to subject himself to that environment? Especially on a voluntary basis. You state that the off season workouts would make him better, I could argue that it wouldn't.

You keep looking at this from a Dolphins fan perspective. I understand that. But, I have no horse in this race. If he chooses to sue, I see Martin's lawyers building a case that establishes the Dolphins locker room as a hostile work environment. It's a pretty well know fact, that voluntary off season workouts aren't necessarily voluntary. So you can establish a feeling of the player being forced into this environment. Add in the fact that the NFL forces players to enter a draft and are forced to play for whatever team drafts them. Lawyers could play off the forced selection process, yet highlight the differences from other teams locker rooms. Players and coaches from other teams have stated that this is not the culture in their locker room. Lastly, they paint a picture of the Dolphins organization condoning this behaviour by placing Incognito in a leadership position. And, allowing him to remain in that position even after a 2012 sexual assault case.

From there the strip club fines, texts, etc will need to be taken into context. But, if Martin's lawyers introduce 10 incidents during trial, they only need one be true to win their case.

Take all of these things and apply them to any other multi-billion dollar corporation. Being the NFL is no longer an excuse.

Ultimately, we don't know if Martin intends to sue. I think he has a good chance to win. Which makes you wonder what the NFL and teams will do.

Honest question Chuck, if you were the only person that knew what was going on. (sex assault, employee harassment, texts, strip club meetings, etc) would you support it 100%?

Before you start berating me for ignoring this extremely poignant and powerful question:

If I knew about the sexual assault, I would have cut Richie.

We know the sexual assault as fact. Yet the Dolphins didn't cut Richie. Does this show lack of institutional control, or a willingness to look the other way when a Pro Bowl player slips up.

The employee harassment is BS. But I would have listened to the complaints before making a determination. Unfortunately, JM did not make that possible.

I believe the information about the locker room employee being harassed was leaked during the Wells interviews. (again, it's not fact. But has greater legs that your Mary Jane quote)

Also, there have been reports of Martin, or Martin's agent speaking to Ireland. Why do you naturally assume that Martin didn't make an effort?

The texts are BS.

Why, because you have all the texts and know exactly the context?

The strip club meetings are BS. But I would have suggested they change venues.

Why are the meetings BS? If you think they are BS, couldn't a player think the same thing?

Still find it funny that you think I am supporting Martin blindly. I want to know exactly what he did or didn't do. But, based on what we know about the way the Dolphins locker room was being run, it's ridiculous to dismiss this as being entirely based on Martin being weak.

Which is what you have done from the start.

I disagree. The only person who has expressed an issue with the way the locker room was being run is the guy who threw his lunch tray and quit the team. If you blindly accept that his opinion on the locker room trumps every other opinion that has been expressed, then you can draw the conclusion above.

You drew the conclusion that Martin is weak. Not me.

The fact that a former Stanford student, that hasn't had problems in the past, throws his tray and quits a team requires people to take notice. This isn't normal behavior. Your logic is that there is problem with the one player. My logic (and some of the facts have proved) is that there could be a problem with the Dolphins organization and certain players.

By your logic, one person can't exact change. They must get in line and follow along like the rest of the robots.

 

[KCitons]

Chuck, I am only using the facts as we know them.

1 - The strip club meetings and and the sexual assault at the golf course are facts we know about. Common sense would tell you that the Dolphins locker room was lacking when it came to control. Remember Incognito was on the Leadership Council. Again, another fact.

2 - Now, by comparison, Martin has been a less than stellar offensive lineman for the Dolphins. He threw down his tray and walked out on the team. He has since made claims that have yet to be substantiated.

These are the facts. Would anyone other than a Dolphin fan side blindly side with #1 and persecute #2? This is the only reason you and I disagree. You've labeled Martin from the beginning.

I still stand by my original stance on Martin. Frankly, it is surprising to me at this point that others are unable to see that point of view at least as a possibility.

I also don't side with Richie, as has been stated numerous times, but clearly not enough to hit home I guess. I am glad both of them are gone. Not sure what your point is.

Congrats. A captain always goes down with the ship.

 

[SWC]

i had some captain morgan while i was on a boat and that is like a ship but smaller and i was like hey check me out brohans i am a pirate and it got a few laughs just thought i would throw that out there take that to the bank brohans

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Chuck, I am only using the facts as we know them.

1 - The strip club meetings and and the sexual assault at the golf course are facts we know about. Common sense would tell you that the Dolphins locker room was lacking when it came to control. Remember Incognito was on the Leadership Council. Again, another fact.

2 - Now, by comparison, Martin has been a less than stellar offensive lineman for the Dolphins. He threw down his tray and walked out on the team. He has since made claims that have yet to be substantiated.

These are the facts. Would anyone other than a Dolphin fan side blindly side with #1 and persecute #2? This is the only reason you and I disagree. You've labeled Martin from the beginning.

I still stand by my original stance on Martin. Frankly, it is surprising to me at this point that others are unable to see that point of view at least as a possibility.

I also don't side with Richie, as has been stated numerous times, but clearly not enough to hit home I guess. I am glad both of them are gone. Not sure what your point is.

Congrats. A captain always goes down with the ship.

My gosh, that is a ridiculous statement. What evidence is there that Jonathan Martin is not too weak to play in the NFL? People called him names and pulled lunchroom pranks on him, so he threw a hissy fit and ran out on his team and got a lawyer, after allegedly checking into a mental facility. This is an adult, mind you...not an 8 year old, although that is what it sounds like. What about that screams "strong mental makeup" to you? What has happened since the beginning that would/should have changed my original opinion on Jonathan Martin? Some other player sexually assaulting someone? That should change my mind? Has ANY OTHER PLAYER expressed a similar distaste for the locker room? On the contrary, they have completely disagreed publicly with that sentiment...but they were probably coerced to do so by the evil team and evil league, right? Please.

By the way, you have also maintained a pretty consistent position on this, except your ship is the one that seems to not be able to stay afloat. Still zero evidence other than hissy fit boy's lawyer spewing garbage that there is a hostile working environment. Hang your hat on the strip club meetings if you must. We see that very differently. The silly text messages that the lawyer released...irrelevant. Physical abuse...haven't heard a word other than a veiled accusation from the lawyer. Financial hazing...Don't get me started. Lunchroom pranks...hypocrite. Rookie hazing...hypocrite.

Basically, everything that Martin's lawyer has brought up to establish a hostile environment has proven to be without basis. You yourself stated that he may be mentally ill, and that may have led to the whole blowup...yet you still want to paint this guy as a victim. Why are you so unwilling to admit that you may have been wrong all along, and he may actually not be a victim at all? Too proud? Is it even a little bit possible that your boy just didn't have what it takes to play with the big boys in the NFL? Or am I a knuckle-dragger just for being so insensitive as to think that?

 

[KCitons]

You're right Chuck. People's heat of the moment reactions should be what defines them as a victim. The only thing you took from Martin walking out, was that he was weak. It amazes me that you can't see the underlying reasons why.

Maybe if he came in with a gun and handled his problems in a "manly' way, you would support him.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

You're right Chuck. People's heat of the moment reactions should be what defines them as a victim. The only thing you took from Martin walking out, was that he was weak. It amazes me that you can't see the underlying reasons why.

Maybe if he came in with a gun and handled his problems in a "manly' way, you would support him.

Yup..thats exactly where I was headed. He should have shot up the lunchroom. Killed everyone. There you go, plucking the true meanings out of somebody's statements once again. Very responsible.

I am waiting to see what the underlying reasons why a grown man threw a lunchroom temper tantrum were. I am humbled that you can so easily see what I, and everyone else cannot. Things must be much clearer on your mountain of superiority.

 

[KCitons]

You're right Chuck. People's heat of the moment reactions should be what defines them as a victim. The only thing you took from Martin walking out, was that he was weak. It amazes me that you can't see the underlying reasons why.

Maybe if he came in with a gun and handled his problems in a "manly' way, you would support him.

Yup..thats exactly where I was headed. He should have shot up the lunchroom. Killed everyone. There you go, plucking the true meanings out of somebody's statements once again. Very responsible.

I am waiting to see what the underlying reasons why a grown man threw a lunchroom temper tantrum were. I am humbled that you can so easily see what I, and everyone else cannot. Things must be much clearer on your mountain of superiority.

Uh yeah. I'm not the one labeling people based on throwing a lunch tray. Which is the only real fact you have to say Martin acted childish or weak.

But, you choose to ignore the other facts of the Dolphins/Incognito that have come out since.

Are you so naive to think that this is the end of things that happened? That Wells spent days interviewing people, just to cover the lunch room pranks and the other stuff we already know about?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

You're right Chuck. People's heat of the moment reactions should be what defines them as a victim. The only thing you took from Martin walking out, was that he was weak. It amazes me that you can't see the underlying reasons why.

Maybe if he came in with a gun and handled his problems in a "manly' way, you would support him.

Yup..thats exactly where I was headed. He should have shot up the lunchroom. Killed everyone. There you go, plucking the true meanings out of somebody's statements once again. Very responsible.

I am waiting to see what the underlying reasons why a grown man threw a lunchroom temper tantrum were. I am humbled that you can so easily see what I, and everyone else cannot. Things must be much clearer on your mountain of superiority.

Uh yeah. I'm not the one labeling people based on throwing a lunch tray. Which is the only real fact you have to say Martin acted childish or weak.

But, you choose to ignore the other facts of the Dolphins/Incognito that have come out since.

Are you so naive to think that this is the end of things that happened? That Wells spent days interviewing people, just to cover the lunch room pranks and the other stuff we already know about?

All he did was throw a lunch tray in your opinion, huh? Where you been, bro?

 

[Hang 10]

I guess you will never understand Chuck. Do you know the difference between hazing and bullying.

Show me any proof of Martin being a bully. If he sues, it won't be for hazing. It will be for bullying.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Or maybe I should just go to the standard reply. You must be fishing or trolling, 'cause you can't be serious.

Where did this come from? When did I accuse Martin of being a bully? I said he was a hypocrite. If he sues, it will be for hazing that his attorneys claim to be bullying. At least based upon what we know today.

That's the standard reply? I have never used that reply ever. No idea where you are coming from with this post.

If he sues for hazing, he isn't going to have a case. Someone would have to cross the line from hazing to bullying in order for it to have a chance at winning. If you think this is about run of the mill hazing in the NFL, then you're wrong.

....and now for something completely different.

Where did this TMZ picture come from? And how do we know it to be legit?

I spent 15 minutes and turned the player into Maurkise Pouncey. Imagine what someone skilled in photoshop could do.

 

[KCitons]

You're right Chuck. People's heat of the moment reactions should be what defines them as a victim. The only thing you took from Martin walking out, was that he was weak. It amazes me that you can't see the underlying reasons why.

Maybe if he came in with a gun and handled his problems in a "manly' way, you would support him.

Yup..thats exactly where I was headed. He should have shot up the lunchroom. Killed everyone. There you go, plucking the true meanings out of somebody's statements once again. Very responsible.

I am waiting to see what the underlying reasons why a grown man threw a lunchroom temper tantrum were. I am humbled that you can so easily see what I, and everyone else cannot. Things must be much clearer on your mountain of superiority.

Uh yeah. I'm not the one labeling people based on throwing a lunch tray. Which is the only real fact you have to say Martin acted childish or weak.

But, you choose to ignore the other facts of the Dolphins/Incognito that have come out since.

Are you so naive to think that this is the end of things that happened? That Wells spent days interviewing people, just to cover the lunch room pranks and the other stuff we already know about?

All he did was throw a lunch tray in your opinion, huh? Where you been, bro?

At this point, he threw a tray and left the team. What else has he done?

When you're done with that, then take a look at what facts have come out that make you question Incognito and the Dolphins.

 

[KCitons]

I guess you will never understand Chuck. Do you know the difference between hazing and bullying.

Show me any proof of Martin being a bully. If he sues, it won't be for hazing. It will be for bullying.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Or maybe I should just go to the standard reply. You must be fishing or trolling, 'cause you can't be serious.

Where did this come from? When did I accuse Martin of being a bully? I said he was a hypocrite. If he sues, it will be for hazing that his attorneys claim to be bullying. At least based upon what we know today.

That's the standard reply? I have never used that reply ever. No idea where you are coming from with this post.

If he sues for hazing, he isn't going to have a case. Someone would have to cross the line from hazing to bullying in order for it to have a chance at winning. If you think this is about run of the mill hazing in the NFL, then you're wrong.

....and now for something completely different.

Where did this TMZ picture come from? And how do we know it to be legit?

I spent 15 minutes and turned the player into Maurkise Pouncey. Imagine what someone skilled in photoshop could do.

Just proving my point. Without a confirmed source, anyone can doctor a picture.

Maybe Chuck was the source for the original TMZ photo.

 

[SWC]

do people pay you two to do anything during the day holy smokes brohans get back to work take that to the bank bromigos

 

[ChuckLiddell]

You're right Chuck. People's heat of the moment reactions should be what defines them as a victim. The only thing you took from Martin walking out, was that he was weak. It amazes me that you can't see the underlying reasons why.

Maybe if he came in with a gun and handled his problems in a "manly' way, you would support him.

Yup..thats exactly where I was headed. He should have shot up the lunchroom. Killed everyone. There you go, plucking the true meanings out of somebody's statements once again. Very responsible.

I am waiting to see what the underlying reasons why a grown man threw a lunchroom temper tantrum were. I am humbled that you can so easily see what I, and everyone else cannot. Things must be much clearer on your mountain of superiority.

Uh yeah. I'm not the one labeling people based on throwing a lunch tray. Which is the only real fact you have to say Martin acted childish or weak.

But, you choose to ignore the other facts of the Dolphins/Incognito that have come out since.

Are you so naive to think that this is the end of things that happened? That Wells spent days interviewing people, just to cover the lunch room pranks and the other stuff we already know about?

All he did was throw a lunch tray in your opinion, huh? Where you been, bro?

At this point, he threw a tray and left the team. What else has he done?

When you're done with that, then take a look at what facts have come out that make you question Incognito and the Dolphins.

He hired a lawyer and brought down a poopstorm all over his former team and teammates, including his best friend. Its a little worse than just throwing down his tray in anger. That would not even make TMZ.

Why do you keep bringing up Incognito? I don't disagree with you on him. I don't think anyone does. The fact that he was supposedly JM's best friend may call your boy into question a little though. If you want to look at things with an open mind, I would question anyone who called a guy like Richie his best friend. I would also question anybody who would roll their best friend so far under a bus, possibly just to cover up for their own deficiencies as a person or a professional.

 

[KCitons]

do people pay you two to do anything during the day holy smokes brohans get back to work take that to the bank bromigos

I get paid to post on random forums. When I'm not posting, I'm on my lunch break.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

I guess you will never understand Chuck. Do you know the difference between hazing and bullying.

Show me any proof of Martin being a bully. If he sues, it won't be for hazing. It will be for bullying.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Or maybe I should just go to the standard reply. You must be fishing or trolling, 'cause you can't be serious.

Where did this come from? When did I accuse Martin of being a bully? I said he was a hypocrite. If he sues, it will be for hazing that his attorneys claim to be bullying. At least based upon what we know today.

That's the standard reply? I have never used that reply ever. No idea where you are coming from with this post.

If he sues for hazing, he isn't going to have a case. Someone would have to cross the line from hazing to bullying in order for it to have a chance at winning. If you think this is about run of the mill hazing in the NFL, then you're wrong.

....and now for something completely different.

Where did this TMZ picture come from? And how do we know it to be legit?

I spent 15 minutes and turned the player into Maurkise Pouncey. Imagine what someone skilled in photoshop could do.

Just proving my point. Without a confirmed source, anyone can doctor a picture.

Maybe Chuck was the source for the original TMZ photo.

I never said a word about the validity of that picture, although I have no reason to doubt it. I don't follow TMZ. Do they have a reputation for doctoring pictures? Is there a real reason to doubt its validity...I mean other than just trying to find another excuse for your boy.

 

[KCitons]

I guess you will never understand Chuck. Do you know the difference between hazing and bullying.

Show me any proof of Martin being a bully. If he sues, it won't be for hazing. It will be for bullying.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Or maybe I should just go to the standard reply. You must be fishing or trolling, 'cause you can't be serious.

Where did this come from? When did I accuse Martin of being a bully? I said he was a hypocrite. If he sues, it will be for hazing that his attorneys claim to be bullying. At least based upon what we know today.

That's the standard reply? I have never used that reply ever. No idea where you are coming from with this post.

If he sues for hazing, he isn't going to have a case. Someone would have to cross the line from hazing to bullying in order for it to have a chance at winning. If you think this is about run of the mill hazing in the NFL, then you're wrong.

....and now for something completely different.

Where did this TMZ picture come from? And how do we know it to be legit?

I spent 15 minutes and turned the player into Maurkise Pouncey. Imagine what someone skilled in photoshop could do.

Just proving my point. Without a confirmed source, anyone can doctor a picture.

Maybe Chuck was the source for the original TMZ photo.

I never said a word about the validity of that picture, although I have no reason to doubt it. I don't follow TMZ. Do they have a reputation for doctoring pictures? Is there a real reason to doubt its validity...I mean other than just trying to find another excuse for your boy.

Is there a reason to doubt an NFL Player that was educated at Stanford and has had zero issues with football culture until a couple of months ago?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

I guess you will never understand Chuck. Do you know the difference between hazing and bullying.

Show me any proof of Martin being a bully. If he sues, it won't be for hazing. It will be for bullying.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Or maybe I should just go to the standard reply. You must be fishing or trolling, 'cause you can't be serious.

Where did this come from? When did I accuse Martin of being a bully? I said he was a hypocrite. If he sues, it will be for hazing that his attorneys claim to be bullying. At least based upon what we know today.

That's the standard reply? I have never used that reply ever. No idea where you are coming from with this post.

If he sues for hazing, he isn't going to have a case. Someone would have to cross the line from hazing to bullying in order for it to have a chance at winning. If you think this is about run of the mill hazing in the NFL, then you're wrong.

....and now for something completely different.

Where did this TMZ picture come from? And how do we know it to be legit?

I spent 15 minutes and turned the player into Maurkise Pouncey. Imagine what someone skilled in photoshop could do.

Just proving my point. Without a confirmed source, anyone can doctor a picture.

Maybe Chuck was the source for the original TMZ photo.

I never said a word about the validity of that picture, although I have no reason to doubt it. I don't follow TMZ. Do they have a reputation for doctoring pictures? Is there a real reason to doubt its validity...I mean other than just trying to find another excuse for your boy.

Is there a reason to doubt an NFL Player that was educated at Stanford and has had zero issues with football culture until a couple of months ago?

Was there a reason to doubt a guy you brought up yesterday, Ted Bundy? Nope. Not until people realized he was a cold hearted serial killer.

Your boy was a good college player. Maybe he didn't have to work that hard to be good at that level. At the NFL level, he sucked, and maybe...just maybe he didn't want to work that hard to get better. But he is a smart, Stanford educated guy, with smart parents who understand the game and maybe he figured out a way to appear to the blind public as a victim, and to use that status to collect a huge payday and then go get glued to his couch and visit strip clubs with his buddies for the rest of his life without having to worry about voluntary offseason workouts. Impossible, in your mind, I am sure. It would take too much of an open mind to even see that as a possibility. Does not fit into your box of believability is my bet.

 

[KCitons]

So, Martin would have sucked on any other roster? Or was it just the Dolphins? Based on the state of the team (fired OC, fired GM, Head coach hanging by a thread) would you really say the Dolphins organization, coupled with a some rogue players is the best way to develop a young player?

What are you going to use for an excuse if Martin decides not to file a lawsuit?

 

[Pump N Go]

Chuck, don't waste your time there's no changing KC's opinion on this even with first hand accounts from inside the locker room.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24196141/brian-hartline-says-jonathan-martin-was-laughing-at-voicemail

 

[KCitons]

Chuck, don't waste your time there's no changing KC's opinion on this even with first hand accounts from inside the locker room.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24196141/brian-hartline-says-jonathan-martin-was-laughing-at-voicemail

We've discussed this before Pump N Go.

The fact that Martin tried to fit in is not a new concept. I would venture to guess 99% of people in a "freshman" or "rookie" situation go along with the crowd, in hopes that things will get better.

Interesting that you feel I need to change my opinion. Why is not labeling someone until all the facts have come out such a bad opinion?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

So, Martin would have sucked on any other roster? Or was it just the Dolphins? Based on the state of the team (fired OC, fired GM, Head coach hanging by a thread) would you really say the Dolphins organization, coupled with a some rogue players is the best way to develop a young player?

What are you going to use for an excuse if Martin decides not to file a lawsuit?

Who the heck knows?! Maybe Ryan Leaf would have been a Hall of Famer if he was drafted by the Colts. I cant pretend to know that, although I bet you can!

I also cannot pretend to know how the season would have gone had they served chicken parm instead of meatloaf that day, and your boy never threw his tantrum. Maybe the Fins would have realized that he was no good, and still gotten McKinnie to replace him. With Richie holding down LG, maybe they make the playoffs and Philbin wins coach of the year and nobody is fired, and I never would have had the pleasure of reading your drivel for the past 2 months.

I wont need an excuse if there is no lawsuit. It will only support the notion that there never was a case. Wont change the fact that he hired a lawyer. Unbelievable what you actually put out there.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Chuck, don't waste your time there's no changing KC's opinion on this even with first hand accounts from inside the locker room.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24196141/brian-hartline-says-jonathan-martin-was-laughing-at-voicemail

We've discussed this before Pump N Go.

The fact that Martin tried to fit in is not a new concept. I would venture to guess 99% of people in a "freshman" or "rookie" situation go along with the crowd, in hopes that things will get better.

Interesting that you feel I need to change my opinion. Why is not labeling someone until all the facts have come out such a bad opinion?

Oh, but you have labeled him. "Victim".

 

[KCitons]

So, Martin would have sucked on any other roster? Or was it just the Dolphins? Based on the state of the team (fired OC, fired GM, Head coach hanging by a thread) would you really say the Dolphins organization, coupled with a some rogue players is the best way to develop a young player?

What are you going to use for an excuse if Martin decides not to file a lawsuit?

Who the heck knows?! Maybe Ryan Leaf would have been a Hall of Famer if he was drafted by the Colts. I cant pretend to know that, although I bet you can!

I also cannot pretend to know how the season would have gone had they served chicken parm instead of meatloaf that day, and your boy never threw his tantrum. Maybe the Fins would have realized that he was no good, and still gotten McKinnie to replace him. With Richie holding down LG, maybe they make the playoffs and Philbin wins coach of the year and nobody is fired, and I never would have had the pleasure of reading your drivel for the past 2 months.

I wont need an excuse if there is no lawsuit. It will only support the notion that there never was a case. Wont change the fact that he hired a lawyer. Unbelievable what you actually put out there.

But wait, You just wrote that Martin found a way to get paid so he can sit on his couch?

Did Leaf claim he was subjected to a hostile workplace? There is your difference.

Since Martin is making the claims, it will be up to him to prove it, in order to exact whatever outcome he is hoping for.

Chuck, don't waste your time there's no changing KC's opinion on this even with first hand accounts from inside the locker room.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24196141/brian-hartline-says-jonathan-martin-was-laughing-at-voicemail

We've discussed this before Pump N Go.

The fact that Martin tried to fit in is not a new concept. I would venture to guess 99% of people in a "freshman" or "rookie" situation go along with the crowd, in hopes that things will get better.

Interesting that you feel I need to change my opinion. Why is not labeling someone until all the facts have come out such a bad opinion?

Oh, but you have labeled him. "Victim".

Uh no.

What do you call a woman that's claims she's been raped? Or a person that claims to be robbed?

Is this really that difficult for you to understand?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

So, Martin would have sucked on any other roster? Or was it just the Dolphins? Based on the state of the team (fired OC, fired GM, Head coach hanging by a thread) would you really say the Dolphins organization, coupled with a some rogue players is the best way to develop a young player?

What are you going to use for an excuse if Martin decides not to file a lawsuit?

Who the heck knows?! Maybe Ryan Leaf would have been a Hall of Famer if he was drafted by the Colts. I cant pretend to know that, although I bet you can!

I also cannot pretend to know how the season would have gone had they served chicken parm instead of meatloaf that day, and your boy never threw his tantrum. Maybe the Fins would have realized that he was no good, and still gotten McKinnie to replace him. With Richie holding down LG, maybe they make the playoffs and Philbin wins coach of the year and nobody is fired, and I never would have had the pleasure of reading your drivel for the past 2 months.

I wont need an excuse if there is no lawsuit. It will only support the notion that there never was a case. Wont change the fact that he hired a lawyer. Unbelievable what you actually put out there.

But wait, You just wrote that Martin found a way to get paid so he can sit on his couch?

Did Leaf claim he was subjected to a hostile workplace? There is your difference.

Since Martin is making the claims, it will be up to him to prove it, in order to exact whatever outcome he is hoping for.

Chuck, don't waste your time there's no changing KC's opinion on this even with first hand accounts from inside the locker room.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24196141/brian-hartline-says-jonathan-martin-was-laughing-at-voicemail

We've discussed this before Pump N Go.

The fact that Martin tried to fit in is not a new concept. I would venture to guess 99% of people in a "freshman" or "rookie" situation go along with the crowd, in hopes that things will get better.

Interesting that you feel I need to change my opinion. Why is not labeling someone until all the facts have come out such a bad opinion?

Oh, but you have labeled him. "Victim".

Uh no.

What do you call a woman that's claims she's been raped? Or a person that claims to be robbed?

Is this really that difficult for you to understand?

WHATEVER, dude. If it will help you ease into this backpedal, I will let it go from here forward. I am not even going to start going back into the 80 pages of posts to show you how ridiculous you are being right now, but you and I will always know the truth. You labeled him as a wronged victim every bit as much as I labeled him weak. To argue otherwise is ludicrous.

Just because maybe his plan fails and he does not get paid does not mean that it was not his plan all along. Wow.

If you have offspring, I hope they are not homeschooled.

 

[KCitons]

Stay classy Chuck.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Stay classy Chuck.

Like on November 21, when you said to me..." You probably taught your kids the "knockout game" at 10 years old. "

Was that classy? Questioning someone you have never met about their parenting. Accusing them of promoting violence with 10 year olds. Is that classy, KC? Or maybe you are just so fond of your boy because you share an acceptance for hypocrisy.

 

[KCitons]

Stay classy Chuck.

Like on November 21, when you said to me..." You probably taught your kids the "knockout game" at 10 years old. "

Was that classy? Questioning someone you have never met about their parenting. Accusing them of promoting violence with 10 year olds. Is that classy, KC? Or maybe you are just so fond of your boy because you share an acceptance for hypocrisy.

Sorry, meant to say, stay knuckley Chuck.

 

[KCitons]

Further...

I did not ask you why that was "a" question. I asked you why that was, as you termed it, "the" question. There is a difference. The question is silly. Why not ask me if I would rather have my right nut severed from my sack, or my left nut? Both would suck. A lot.

OK, which nut would you like to have severed from your sack? Your right? Or your left?

Sorry, I will try to remove the word the from my questioning in the future.

Interesting that you have classified Martin and Incognito as both sucking. A lot. Yet, Martin has a much shorter, if not non existent, track record of anything I would consider negative behavior. That may change, but is seems unfair to categorize both players exactly the same.

You put less negative stock into his ####itude than I do. Matter of opinion, but for me, I don't want my friends, kids, or my team's offensive linemen to exhibit that characteristic. Gun to my head, I'd rather they be a wuss like 71 rather than the ##### that 68 is...but both characteristics are extremely unappealing, and neither is likely to lead to a successful, happy life.

your right, I wouldn't want my kid to attend Stanford on a football scholarship. And then be drafted by an NFL team. That would completely suck.

I'd be OK with a scholarship to Nebraska, and then drafted by an NFL team. I don't think that is really the issue at hand though, is it? What a ridiculous response!

wait, you forgot the rest of the story. (channeling Paul Harvey). Your career at Nebraska was cut short because you were arrested and bullied team mates. So you transferred to Oregon, where you couldn't follow the rules for more than a week. Luckily you were drafted to the NFL, where you were voted the dirtiest player in the league.

Nice choice.

Please explain any of Martins faults up until three weeks ago. And before you say he is a mediocre LT, remember a lot of players wash out of the NFL. It has nothing to do with character it has to do with talent.

What choice are you referencing? Are you drinking? Or are you just so caught up in your passionate affair with your beloved martyr for bullying, that you are making no sense anymore?

The choice between having you son follow the path of Incognito or Martin. You probably taught your kids the "knockout game" at 10 years old.

You guessed it, I have a love affair for Martin. Another example of your intelligence. When you start to lose control, attack with a homophobic statement. The scariest thing you can think of. Hate to break it to you, but the man crush thing doesn't bother me. I'm secure in my manhood. Are you?

Since the Martin/Incognito case is about context, you need to make sure to include the entire context of our conversation from November.

I was just standing up to a bully. As a man, you should understand that.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Further...

I did not ask you why that was "a" question. I asked you why that was, as you termed it, "the" question. There is a difference. The question is silly. Why not ask me if I would rather have my right nut severed from my sack, or my left nut? Both would suck. A lot.

OK, which nut would you like to have severed from your sack? Your right? Or your left?

Sorry, I will try to remove the word the from my questioning in the future.

Interesting that you have classified Martin and Incognito as both sucking. A lot. Yet, Martin has a much shorter, if not non existent, track record of anything I would consider negative behavior. That may change, but is seems unfair to categorize both players exactly the same.

You put less negative stock into his ####itude than I do. Matter of opinion, but for me, I don't want my friends, kids, or my team's offensive linemen to exhibit that characteristic. Gun to my head, I'd rather they be a wuss like 71 rather than the ##### that 68 is...but both characteristics are extremely unappealing, and neither is likely to lead to a successful, happy life.

your right, I wouldn't want my kid to attend Stanford on a football scholarship. And then be drafted by an NFL team. That would completely suck.

I'd be OK with a scholarship to Nebraska, and then drafted by an NFL team. I don't think that is really the issue at hand though, is it? What a ridiculous response!

wait, you forgot the rest of the story. (channeling Paul Harvey). Your career at Nebraska was cut short because you were arrested and bullied team mates. So you transferred to Oregon, where you couldn't follow the rules for more than a week. Luckily you were drafted to the NFL, where you were voted the dirtiest player in the league.

Nice choice.

Please explain any of Martins faults up until three weeks ago. And before you say he is a mediocre LT, remember a lot of players wash out of the NFL. It has nothing to do with character it has to do with talent.

What choice are you referencing? Are you drinking? Or are you just so caught up in your passionate affair with your beloved martyr for bullying, that you are making no sense anymore?

The choice between having you son follow the path of Incognito or Martin. You probably taught your kids the "knockout game" at 10 years old.

You guessed it, I have a love affair for Martin. Another example of your intelligence. When you start to lose control, attack with a homophobic statement. The scariest thing you can think of. Hate to break it to you, but the man crush thing doesn't bother me. I'm secure in my manhood. Are you?

Since the Martin/Incognito case is about context, you need to make sure to include the entire context of our conversation from November.

I was just standing up to a bully. As a man, you should understand that.

I said you had a mancrush, and you incorrectly interpreted that as a homosexual reference, and proceeded to accuse me of promoting violence with my children because of it. I sent a spitball your way, and you responded by dropping a bomb on my entire household. And you are the one who is up so very high on his horse about NOT acting like that. You did what Richie would have likely done given the same situation. Hypocrisy once again. You are a fraud.

 

[KCitons]

Yep, you win Chuck.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Yep, you win Chuck.

It was inevitable, given the participants.

 

[KCitons]

Probably high fiving and sharing a beer with your son right now. Telling him, "this is how you prevent the wussification of America"