Dumbing Down of America (3 Viewers)

[The General]

Americans have a long tradition of embracing their stupidity. 

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

We've talked a lot about math and science scores, but I don't want to be overly biased towards STEM education, so I must point this out:

Americans, in general, seem to be pretty poorly educated and ignorant in many other topics too!

Like geography. And history. And proper grammar and usage in the one language that they have spent all their time "mastering": English.

 

[Ron Swanson]

I think some of you non-teachers would be shocked to see what the general public is actually like. For managers and business owners, imagine having a job where you couldn't fire an employee for anything less than bringing a weapon to work or threatening to kill people at work. Sleeping all day every day. Can't fire them. Not able to do even the most basic tasks? Can't fire them. Refuse to bring basic supplies? Nope. Tell you to your face that they hate you and won't do anything. You have to keep them. Are always rude to other workers and when in groups they sabotage the group through negligence or spite? You must keep them around. One kid this year asked for a pencil. I gave him a brand new pencil. He said "I'm not getting up to sharpen it." He tossed it on the floor and put his head down. Awesome. I just have to deal with him and try to beg, plead, demand, compliment, whatever this kid for the whole year to try and get hime to do something. No matter what anyone says, I know it is not my or the school systems fault that this kid will get a 10 on the ACT. 

Wait...you Coach the Pistons?

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

So our high school (like most I assume) has all grades online. The moment a teacher puts an assignment into the gradebook, it is available for the students and parents to see through a log-in they have through our website. We also send email/text blasts out every 3 weeks reminding parents/students to check their grades and provide the link as well as contact info if they need help logging in, forgot their password, etc. Yet it is amazing how many times a teacher will get a call from the parent of a 16 year old complaining why they were never told that their kid wasn't turning in their work and can the kid turn in the work late and it's not fair if their kid fails. Also I love the parents whom I do call about something and they tell me how often they log-on to see their kids grades without knowing I can see how many times the parent has logged in and the number is 0. Or we have 16 year old kids at the end of a semester who want to make up everything they missed or did bad on because they didn't know they were failing. GTFO. 

Schools have never made it easier for kids and parents to stay on top of things. Every teacher in my school has a Google Classroom website where every assignment, set of notes, videos, lectures, answer keys, practice tests, etc. are placed. Yet a teenager will miss 2 days of class and never turn any of their missing work in. A week later when it all goes into the gradebook as a zero the the kid will tell the parent the teacher never told them they missed anything and the teacher never gave him the missing work. Teacher tells the parent that the kid knows everything we do is posted day by day on the website. The parent is then upset the teacher won't let the student make up the work 10 days later instead of being mad at the kid for playing dumb. 
 

There are a lot of hard working kids and a lot on the ball parents so this isn't everyone, but I work in low SES very working class area and it's probably 40% of the kids/parents. I think some of you non-teachers would be shocked to see what the general public is actually like. For managers and business owners, imagine having a job where you couldn't fire an employee for anything less than bringing a weapon to work or threatening to kill people at work. Sleeping all day every day. Can't fire them. Not able to do even the most basic tasks? Can't fire them. Refuse to bring basic supplies? Nope. Tell you to your face that they hate you and won't do anything. You have to keep them. Are always rude to other workers and when in groups they sabotage the group through negligence or spite? You must keep them around. One kid this year asked for a pencil. I gave him a brand new pencil. He said "I'm not getting up to sharpen it." He tossed it on the floor and put his head down. Awesome. I just have to deal with him and try to beg, plead, demand, compliment, whatever this kid for the whole year to try and get hime to do something. No matter what anyone says, I know it is not my or the school systems fault that this kid will get a 10 on the ACT. 

My personal view is that there generally is really very little difference in terms of the schools and teachers themselves between high performing schools and low performing schools. 

The main difference that matters is in the students or, more importantly, in the families of the students. 

 

[mr. furley]

Nobody is closing doors on anyone.  They are closing doors on themselves.

hey, kid, you're 9.. better figure out how important education is to your life and start grinding 18 hour days in the books so you can get a chance at "A" school & maybe a good job..... hey, look, there's a squirrel.

 

[glvsav37]

My personal view is that there generally is really very little difference in terms of the schools and teachers themselves between high performing schools and low performing schools. 

The main difference that matters is in the students or, more importantly, in the families of the students. 

IDK about other places, but here in NY they are trying to create standardized, state tests to 'rank' teacher performance (ultimately they claim to remove ineffective teachers). However, from what I have seen there is no weight or curve given to socioeconomic or other factors outside of the school. I've been dead set against this and fighting it heard locally just for this reason. 

My rational is that the best teachers are needed in the lowest student performance areas. However, if by choosing to work in that district, a teachers job will constantly be in jeopardy b/c of the threat of low scores. Therefore, the best teachers will seek out employment at districts where the students may be more affluent, be able to afford tutoring, may have a parent at home, and otherwise be exposed to more opportunities then other lower income students, effectively making thier long term employment easier. 
 

 

[glvsav37]

hey, kid, you're 9.. better figure out how important education is to your life and start grinding 18 hour days in the books so you can get a chance at "A" school & maybe a good job..... hey, look, there's a squirrel.

aren't we doing that in youth sports already? 

sort of joking of course, but no denying that some parents are putting more effort and support behind their kids athletics then their schooling. 

 

[Ilov80s]

My personal view is that there generally is really very little difference in terms of the schools and teachers themselves between high performing schools and low performing schools. 

The main difference that matters is in the students or, more importantly, in the families of the students. 

I agree to a degree but schools with better students will get better teachers because it makes their job easier, it’s more likely to be a nicer area, pay better, etc.

 

[Short Corner]

hey, kid, you're 9.. better figure out how important education is to your life and start grinding 18 hour days in the books so you can get a chance at "A" school & maybe a good job..... hey, look, there's a squirrel.

No one is locked into anything at 9.

 

[mr. furley]

aren't we doing that in youth sports already? 

sort of joking of course, but no denying that some parents are putting more effort and support behind their kids athletics then their schooling. 

percentage wise, far far far far far fewer people are looking to a pro sports career as the end goal. fractions of a percentage when compared to people who go to college for a degree. or 2 year schools/tech school for a certificate.

of the hundreds of kids i know, i can think of 1 off the top of my head who has parents that are grinding their kid for a sports scholarship/career. 

it's kind of a pipe dream more than an actual goal. the kid will likely end up at a nice college and get a degree from her sports career but there's little to no chance she's going pro

 

[mr. furley]

No one is locked into anything at 9.

better get to cracking if you want to have a shot  otherwise you're closing the door on yourself.

smart American pull themselves up by their bootstraps. like in the good old days when 5 year olds worked 14 in the mines, came home to a couple table beers, a piece of bread and a nap next to the chamber pot.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

I agree to a degree but schools with better students will get better teachers because it makes their job easier, it’s more likely to be a nicer area, pay better, etc.

Oh, absolutely. And the good and/or well-intentioned teachers at the terrible school will eventually either quit or be reduced to just punching the clock by the endless frustration of trying to do an impossible job.

But I still believe that if you took the student body of a public high school that is performing well and swapped it with the student body of one that is performing poorly, it would be very clear what the cause and effect relationship is.

This is why I believe that voluntary charter school programs succeed and also why they send false signals about the benefits of charter schools. The families that self-select to improve their kids' educational situation are not the problem. The ones that don't give a crap are. 

 

[Short Corner]

better get to cracking if you want to have a shot

You're getting a free college education.  I don't think it's too much to ask to show a little enthusiasm.  

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

better get to cracking if you want to have a shot  otherwise you're closing the door on yourself.

smart American pull themselves up by their bootstraps. like in the good old days when 5 year olds worked 14 in the mines, came home to a couple table beers, a piece of bread and a nap next to the chamber pot.

I'd actually argue that the German system is more beneficial for the kids that don't take school seriously, whether at 9 years old or 15. 

Better that the non academically inclined, or disinterested, be taught a valuable skill than that the system go through the charade of college prep for somebody that is never going to go to, much less graduate from, college.

We could have a reasonable discussion about when that steering should take place, and I'd tend to agree that maybe Germany does it a little early, but that doesn't make the whole idea bad or wrong.

And the last time I looked, the country with the more or less permanent underclass is ours. 

 

[mr. furley]

I'd actually argue that the German system is more beneficial for the kids that don't take school seriously, whether at 9 years old or 15. 

Better that the non academically inclined, or disinterested, be taught a valuable skill than that the system go through the charade of college prep for somebody that is never going to go to, much less graduate from, college.

We could have a reasonable discussion about when that steering should take place, and I'd tend to agree that maybe Germany does it a little early, but that doesn't make the whole idea bad or wrong.

And the last time I looked, the country with the more or less permanent underclass is ours. 

no disagreement here. i took umbrage with the line "closing the door" on themselves.

in part because it screams the old trope "i didn't have it easy growing up and i graduated.. nobody should make excuses".

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

no disagreement here. i took umbrage with the line "closing the door" on themselves.

in part because it screams the old trope "i didn't have it easy growing up and i graduated.. nobody should make excuses".

I hear you. I have a sophomore in high school who has done his level best to close all doors on himself, despite being plenty bright and having all of the advantages he could need.

He causes my wife and I no end of frustration and we have tried basically everything. I can only imagine how easy it is to fall into the same trap for a kid with no support system at home, no educated role models, and who probably lives his/her life in a sub-culture where being educated isn't merely undervalued but actively ridiculed. 

 

[glvsav37]

Oh, absolutely. And the good and/or well-intentioned teachers at the terrible school will eventually either quit or be reduced to just punching the clock by the endless frustration of trying to do an impossible job.

But I still believe that if you took the student body of a public high school that is performing well and swapped it with the student body of one that is performing poorly, it would be very clear what the cause and effect relationship is.

This is why I believe that voluntary charter school programs succeed and also why they send false signals about the benefits of charter schools. The families that self-select to improve their kids' educational situation are not the problem. The ones that don't give a crap are. 

but where does that leave the other 1/2? To waste away in a public school that is made up of failing students? Maybe their parents didn't give a crap but the world is full fo stories where people perceivered though family issues to be successful. 

Most charters have the benefit of selecting their student boy and tossing the under performers and not taking special education students. Its hard to line thier effectiveness straight up against those fo a public school. 

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

but where does that leave the other 1/2? To waste away in a public school that is made up of failing students? Maybe their parents didn't give a crap but the world is full fo stories where people perceivered though family issues to be successful. 

Most charters have the benefit of selecting their student boy and tossing the under performers and not taking special education students. Its hard to line thier effectiveness straight up against those fo a public school. 

That was exactly my point. Charters succeed because of those things, therefore saying charter schools are superior is a canard.

 

[Ilov80s]

The thing there is that charter schools on a whole don’t outperform their neighboring public schools. My 2 cents is that they get crappy kids too and are heavily incentivized to do whatever they can to keep them. The teaching staff at charter schools are inferior because the pay, benefits and freedoms are much less so most charter school teachers are those that have been passed over for public school. 

I mostly support choice in schools but it comes with a major cost: it’s turned k-12 educations into a competitive business and in business the customer is always right. In this sense, it’s just in the best interest of schools to make things as easy as possible for kids and their parents which leads to grade inflation, watering down curriculum and lax behavioral standards.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

The thing there is that charter schools on a whole don’t outperform their neighboring public schools. My 2 cents is that they get crappy kids too and are heavily incentivized to do whatever they can to keep them. The teaching staff at charter schools are inferior because the pay, benefits and freedoms are much less so most charter school teachers are those that have been passed over for public school. 

I mostly support choice in schools but it comes with a major cost: it’s k-12 educations into a competitive business and in business the customer is always right. In this sense, it’s just in the best interest of schools to make things as easy as possible for kids and their parents which leads to grade inflation, watering down curriculum and lax behavioral standards.

I didn't mean to imply that charter schools necessarily have superior results overall. But where they do, and there are some that have performed fantastically, it is generally because of the self-selection effect that I described above.

Our district has "choice" schools that are academically more rigorous than regular high schools and middle schools. They perform extremely well, even compared to a generally high-performing district. That isn't surprising at all, until you learn that they have no difficult application process or minimum standards, other than being selected in a lottery system. So how could that be?

Well, the only families that apply to the lottery are the families that really care about education. So all the kids who go to the choice schools are already well ahead of the curve. And teachers prefer to work at those schools, rather than the general ed middle schools and high schools because the students and their families are more committed. So they get better, or at least more energetic, teachers too.

It's a great program, in many ways, but in no way is it a model for solving education problems generally. I see charter schools in a similar vein.

My younger step-son is going to the STEM high school in the fall, despite being not particularly inspired by STEM topics. That is going to be interesting. But the orientation night made it really clear why the school is so highly rated: the kids and their parents were all there, actively asking questions and getting as much information as possible. And the teachers and administration are all about the business of education. They explained everything that is expected and required and made the point that within the first ten minutes of the first day of school they will be getting into serious instruction.

 

[dickey moe]

Yep.  And any teacher worth his/her Expo markers knows how adapt curriculum to individual students.

That's a problem if there aren't enough teachers worth their Expo markers.

 

[mr. furley]

I hear you. I have a sophomore in high school who has done his level best to close all doors on himself, despite being plenty bright and having all of the advantages he could need.

He causes my wife and I no end of frustration and we have tried basically everything. I can only imagine how easy it is to fall into the same trap for a kid with no support system at home, no educated role models, and who probably lives his/her life in a sub-culture where being educated isn't merely undervalued but actively ridiculed. 

there was some FB video i saw the other day with a crowd of kids all standing in a sort of horizontal line in a field. a coach type guy was there and started his spiel:

"everyone whose parents are still married, take one step forward"

"everyone who never had their power turned off, take one step forward"

"everyone who never lost a family member or friend to violence, take one step forward"

on and on it goes until the field is fairly well spread out with some kids way, way out ahead... 20 giant steps.. and then spread out until there are some kids who haven't taken any steps forward.

the coach guy says something like "turn around and take a look at your friends who are standing at the start and tell me they all had the same opportunities that you had.. that those kids have no excuses.. that you had a hard life... that you didn't have advantage. be grateful."

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

there was some FB video i saw the other day with a crowd of kids all standing in a sort of horizontal line in a field. a coach type guy was there and started his spiel:

"everyone whose parents are still married, take one step forward"

"everyone who never had their power turned off, take one step forward"

"everyone who never lost a family member or friend to violence, take one step forward"

on and on it goes until the field is fairly well spread out with some kids way, way out ahead... 20 giant steps.. and then spread out until there are some kids who haven't taken any steps forward.

the coach guy says something like "turn around and take a look at your friends who are standing at the start and tell me they all had the same opportunities that you had.. that those kids have no excuses.. that you had a hard life... that you didn't have advantage. be grateful."

I'm having trouble reading this because the pollen levels around here are apparently off the charts.

 

[Bossman]

aren't we doing that in youth sports already? 

sort of joking of course, but no denying that some parents are putting more effort and support behind their kids athletics then their schooling. 

In another thread, I brought up the fact that American kids eating fast food, pizza, etc because parents are "too busy" to take 30 mins and cook meat, fish, veggies, potatoes, rice ..

a dad replied stating he gets home at 530 and need to get his girl to the field by 6 ... so KFC it is I guess. Youth sports takes priority over eating healthy and in some cases homework.

I love the fact that the German school system is competitive. If USA parents and students put the time and effort into education that they already put into u13 town league soccer, softball, cheer leading,  ... maybe we could get somewhere.

Could you imagine a father hitting the drive through because he needed to get his daughter to calculus tutoring on time? Wouldn't happen unless there were an "A" school on the line.

 

[mr. furley]

I'm having trouble reading this because the pollen levels around here are apparently off the charts.

hit me the same way.

it's why i get triggered by the "pull yourself up, i did it" crowd.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

That's a problem if there aren't enough teachers worth their Expo markers.

And that's where the problem gets really complicated.

I am deeply sympathetic with good, committed teachers and there are lots of them. I'd like to see them paid more, given the resources they need to succeed, etc..

I am NOT sympathetic to teachers unions, at all. They have been so far successful in shaping the narrative that the entire debate about education comes down to spending per pupil. That's objectively not truthful and while it clearly is in their financial best interest to do that (at least in the short run), it has long term consequences which are bad for students, teachers, and ultimately, America.

 

[dickey moe]

And that's where the problem gets really complicated.

I am deeply sympathetic with good, committed teachers and there are lots of them. I'd like to see them paid more, given the resources they need to succeed, etc..

I am NOT sympathetic to teachers unions, at all. They have been so far successful in shaping the narrative that the entire debate about education comes down to spending per pupil. That's objectively not truthful and while it clearly is in their financial best interest to do that (at least in the short run), it has long term consequences which are bad for students, teachers, and ultimately, America.

I agree. We need to incentivize and reward the good teachers and make it easier to fire the bad ones.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

I agree. We need to incentivize and reward the good teachers and make it easier to fire the bad ones.

While I agree with that 100%, the other side of the problem that we have been discussing earlier, the family and cultural factors, is more important. And more difficult to solve.

 

[Galileo]

I agree. We need to incentivize and reward the good teachers and make it easier to fire the bad ones.

I don't have a problem with this, but when you fire the "bad ones", who's going to replace them?  There is a pretty significant teacher shortage in many places.

Aside from that, the other big problem is determining what it means to be a "good" or "bad" teacher.  Human learning is a pretty complex process that is not easily quantified.  Trying to hold teachers accountable and measure their effectiveness is what prompted the barrage of testing that exists in today's educational culture.   I don't necessarily disagree with the desire to hold teacher's accountable, but finding the right tools to do that is tricky.

 

[dickey moe]

I don't have a problem with this, but when you fire the "bad ones", who's going to replace them?  There is a pretty significant teacher shortage in many places.

Aside from that, the other big problem is determining what it means to be a "good" or "bad" teacher.  Human learning is a pretty complex process that is not easily quantified.  Trying to hold teachers accountable and measure their effectiveness is what prompted the barrage of testing that exists in today's educational culture.   I don't necessarily disagree with the desire to hold teacher's accountable, but finding the right tools to do that is tricky.

I also agree with this, but isn't this what highly paid administrators should figure out how to do?

 

[dickey moe]

While I agree with that 100%, the other side of the problem that we have been discussing earlier, the family and cultural factors, is more important. And more difficult to solve.

Yep.

 

[Galileo]

I also agree with this, but isn't this what highly paid administrators should figure out how to do?

until state legislators dictate to them what they are going to do.

 

[Ilov80s]

This the video earlier posters referenced 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1z1D2_KWCbU

 

[mr. furley]

I don't have a problem with this, but when you fire the "bad ones", who's going to replace them? 

well, if you live in Wisconsin.... no one. you just tell the teachers that are left, with no union support and no ability to fight for themselves, that they're just going to have to work longer hours, teach more kids and pick up second jobs because their pay is about to get torched.

upside: the kids whose parents can afford it will go to expensive charter & private schools, further draining the public schools funding so eventually you'll have less kids to teach 

 

[mr. furley]

This the video earlier posters referenced 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1z1D2_KWCbU

yeah, not watching that again but that's the video i was talking about

 

[nirad3]

Has Idiocracy been mentioned here yet?  I have half-jokingly said that we are down that path here.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

I also agree with this, but isn't this what highly paid administrators should figure out how to do?

I understand where you are going with this, but measuring teacher performance is actually a pretty difficult exercise.

One thing I think many of us will agree on is that most districts could probably spend a lot less on administration. Administrative overhead in the budget has grown far, far faster than teacher salaries. And that's even true at the college level too, where spending on administration has outpaced basically everything, except for maybe textbook inflation (such a racket).

 

[MAC_32]

In another thread, I brought up the fact that American kids eating fast food, pizza, etc because parents are "too busy" to take 30 mins and cook meat, fish, veggies, potatoes, rice ..

a dad replied stating he gets home at 530 and need to get his girl to the field by 6 ... so KFC it is I guess. Youth sports takes priority over eating healthy and in some cases homework.

I love the fact that the German school system is competitive. If USA parents and students put the time and effort into education that they already put into u13 town league soccer, softball, cheer leading,  ... maybe we could get somewhere.

Could you imagine a father hitting the drive through because he needed to get his daughter to calculus tutoring on time? Wouldn't happen unless there were an "A" school on the line.

It's a different subject, but this always drives my head through the roof.  You don't have time to make dinner one night? and you know about it ahead of time? Then make more the day before.  You're just making an excuse to be lazy and make poor decisions.  And potentially developing those same bad habits in your children.

 

[fantasycurse42]

We're pretty ####### stupid as a population, and it isn't just America, clock is ticking on humanity - prob around 500 years or so. Machines are about a gazillion times smarter than us.

As AI advances, it will move much quicker than anticipated. First, it will help solve our problems, cure disease, etc... But at some point, they'll get tired of selfies and likes and be done with us. 

 

[Bossman]

It's a different subject, but this always drives my head through the roof.  You don't have time to make dinner one night? and you know about it ahead of time? Then make more the day before.  You're just making an excuse to be lazy and make poor decisions.  And potentially developing those same bad habits in your children.

Couldn't agree more. Our fat, dumb, youth is a result of our own laziness ... this parent had a leg to stand on but so many parents take the "easy" road when it's not necessary.

What a country where we don't even have to get out of our car  ... and we're handed a 1000 calorie meal thru the drivers window ... that we can eat while we drive, watch tv, or stare at our phones.

Kids even get a toy. Oh boy! ... then Domino's delivery the next night. Who wants pepperoni! 

... and why we put such a priority in youth sports ... and not education. You wont see facebook posts about the "A" johnny got on his algebra test  ... but you'll certainly hear about the goal he scored at lacrosse.

Todays parent will SIT THRU a 90 min pee-wee football practice ... but couldn't be bothered to take 5 mins to check the kids homework. "Not my job. Let the teacher deal with it".

 

[glvsav37]

It's a different subject, but this always drives my head through the roof.  You don't have time to make dinner one night? and you know about it ahead of time? Then make more the day before.  You're just making an excuse to be lazy and make poor decisions.  And potentially developing those same bad habits in your children.

funny/not funny...but just last night we signed up for a service that loads us up with a few months worth of meat and other meals. We are that typical busy family and one of our biggest barrier to not cooking as much as we prefer is just not "having it in the house". Hopefully this reverses that trend. We really want to make that a priority even with all our extra curricular activities.  

 

[Fantasy_Freak]

well, if you live in Wisconsin.... no one. you just tell the teachers that are left, with no union support and no ability to fight for themselves, that they're just going to have to work longer hours, teach more kids and pick up second jobs because their pay is about to get torched.

upside: the kids whose parents can afford it will go to expensive charter & private schools, further draining the public schools funding so eventually you'll have less kids to teach 

Or better yet the kids whose family's cant afford it but are eligible for school vouchers go for free.  Those in the middle are left attending underfunded schools.

Sorry, the whole voucher system in Wisconsin has me a little miffed at least where I live in Wisconsin.

 

[Ilov80s]

Todays parent will SIT THRU a 90 min pee-wee football practice ... but couldn't be bothered to take 5 mins to check the kids homework. "Not my job. Let the teacher deal with it".

Working on homework isn't fun! 

 

[DallasDMac]

Working on homework isn't fun! 

And they don't want their kids to figure out they don't know how to complete it either.

 

[oldmanhawkins]

Sorry OP, but all the research shows that the countries who do it best are all the ones who separate by ability the LEAST and the LATEST (Finland and China, for example). Good schools in the US are realizing this and honors and perhaps even AP classes will be gone before you know it.  

As a teacher, heterogeneous classes means more complex lessons that allow the weaker students access and top students room to run.

 

[pecorino]

Has Idiocracy been mentioned here yet?  I have half-jokingly said that we are down that path here.

Time to rewatch it. I recall a comedy where Trump Organization s depicted as future president. Was that in Idiocracy?

 

[pecorino]

Sorry OP, but all the research shows that the countries who do it best are all the ones who separate by ability the LEAST and the LATEST (Finland and China, for example). Good schools in the US are realizing this and honors and perhaps even AP classes will be gone before you know it.  

As a teacher, heterogeneous classes means more complex lessons that allow the weaker students access and top students room to run.

I believe AP classes are here to stay. It might not be for the best, but their foothold in US high schools remains quite strong.

 

[oldmanhawkins]

I believe AP classes are here to stay. It might not be for the best, but their foothold in US high schools remains quite strong.

I agree that Collegeboard won’t go away quietly.  But things will trend in that direction, away from classes with labels that indicate that some students are learning richer, more advanced content than others. Access and equity are paramount. Where accelerated classes continue to exist, there won’t be any barriers to entry. My school lifted teacher recommendations as a requirement to get into AP/honors years ago.  History and English classes have gone to a hybrid system where most assignments are offered on a standard and an honors level.  

 

[oldmanhawkins]

My personal view is that there generally is really very little difference in terms of the schools and teachers themselves between high performing schools and low performing schools. 

The main difference that matters is in the students or, more importantly, in the families of the students. 

There is some truth to this first statement for the sole reason that many of the best performing schools are still doing things the way they did them 50 years ago because “if it ain’t broke...” and those schools aren’t actually deserving of any accolades. 

However, I do think it is an unfair generalization and that there are many many truly exceptional schools that take the students in front of them and make tremendous gains nearly across the board.

I agree wholeheartedly about the impact of parents and families. All it takes is some kids dad saying “I was never a math person” to get a kid to pretty much give up on a career in STEM and never put any effort into his studies.

 

[Bossman]

Sorry OP, but all the research shows that the countries who do it best are all the ones who separate by ability the LEAST and the LATEST (Finland and China, for example). Good schools in the US are realizing this and honors and perhaps even AP classes will be gone before you know it.  

As a teacher, heterogeneous classes means more complex lessons that allow the weaker students access and top students room to run.

As a teacher, how can you see this working? My son tells me that kids in his class were asking questions and saying "I don't get it" ... after the teacher has gone over it 3 times already.

Drove him absolutely CRAZY. No child left behind ... so as a teacher, you focus on the slow ones to try to get them up to speed .... while the bright ones feel like they're watching paint dry. This is the goal?

Maybe we should be more like China and American dads should start practicing female infanticide. Everyone knows that Girls suck at math and are dragging down our test scores.