[DYNASTY] Is Kyle Rudolph overrated? (1 Viewer)

[EBF]

Those times don't jive with other sources:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/story/14914247/rudolph-improves-round-1-chance-at-irish-pro-day

Rudolph, who clocked in at 4.78 and 4.8 in the 40, roughly three weeks after being cleared to work out at full-throttle for the first time since the operation and at 100 percent for the first time since initially tweaking the hamstring last July.

http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/04/07/notre-dames-rudolph-proves-he-is-top-te/

Rudolph (6-foot-6 1/8, 258 pounds) ran 4.75 and 4.83 seconds

And bear in mind that pro day times tend to skew a little bit faster than combine times for whatever reason.

None of this would matter if Rudolph was out there busting big plays and running by people. Nobody is talking about Gronk's timed speed at this point because he has shown the ability to make big plays in the NFL. How fast he ran as a draft prospect is irrelevant in the face of concrete proof that he can be a gamebreaker at the pro level. But when you combine slow 40 times with a lack of big plays on the field, it all indicates a player who lacks big play ability. Rudolph was absolutely terrible at converting targets into yards last season. Maybe it was Ponder and maybe it was just variance, but to me it's a concern.

As for the Pro Bow, it's a free vacation to Hawaii. Nobody plays defense. Nobody tackles. I'm pretty sure I could lace up the spikes and go for a buck fifty and three scores in that game.

 

[thriftyrocker]

We already discussed why pro day stats for Rudolph are irrelevant.

Here's the Pro Bowl highlights for Rudolph. A lot of matador defense, no pass rush. No reason to change your opinion of him

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000131553/2013-Pro-Bowl-Kyle-Rudolph-highlights

 

[LususV]

None of this would matter if Rudolph was out there busting big plays and running by people. Nobody is talking about Gronk's timed speed at this point because he has shown the ability to make big plays in the NFL. How fast he ran as a draft prospect is irrelevant in the face of concrete proof that he can be a gamebreaker at the pro level. But when you combine slow 40 times with a lack of big plays on the field, it all indicates a player who lacks big play ability. Rudolph was absolutely terrible at converting targets into yards last season. Maybe it was Ponder and maybe it was just variance, but to me it's a concern.


Ponder certainly didn't help - almost every time I got to catch a Vikings game (I was exclusively on Red Zone and primetime games, with Giants/Jets on Sundays), I saw countless jump balls thrown Rudolph's way in short yardage and red zone situations (and often, these were off target!), but I rarely saw him get a pass in stride when in the open field. Perhaps he doesn't get separation very well, but Ponder was a pretty bad QB last year.

I'm absolutely not super-high on Rudolph as an elite NFL player, as he doesn't have Gronkowski's ability to shed tackles, but with a capable QB, I think he could have 15+ TD potential (with a solid 750 (?) yards or so) just with his ability on jump balls in the end zone, which is elite fantasy production in any year but 2011.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Ponder certainly didn't help - almost every time I got to catch a Vikings game (I was exclusively on Red Zone and primetime games, with Giants/Jets on Sundays), I saw countless jump balls thrown Rudolph's way in short yardage and red zone situations (and often, these were off target!), but I rarely saw him get a pass in stride when in the open field. Perhaps he doesn't get separation very well, but Ponder was a pretty bad QB last year. I'm absolutely not super-high on Rudolph as an elite NFL player, as he doesn't have Gronkowski's ability to shed tackles, but with a capable QB, I think he could have 15+ TD potential (with a solid 750 (?) yards or so) just with his ability on jump balls in the end zone, which is elite fantasy production in any year but 2011.

Only one TE in history has ever gotten 15+ TDs- Gronk had 17 in 2011. And that was from an All Pro talent catching passes from a first-ballot HoFer in the most prolific, record-setting offensive system in history. Vernon Davis and Antonio Gates each had a 13 TD season, and five guys (Christensen, Ditka, Jerry Smith, Parks, and Walls) managed 12 scores. No one else has ever gotten more than 11- not Gonzo, not Sharpe, not Coates, not Newsome or Winslow (Jr. or Sr.). Not Dave Casper or Dallas Clark, John Mackie or Jackie Smith. Only 20 guys in NFL history have even hit 10 TDs, only 6 have done it twice, and only Gates, Gonzo, and Gronk have managed it three times. I would say that Rudolph has very, very little upside over what he did last year in terms of TD production. If he's going to improve as a fantasy asset, he'll have to increase that yardage number and hope that he can just prevent the TDs from decreasing too much.

 

[LususV]

Ponder certainly didn't help - almost every time I got to catch a Vikings game (I was exclusively on Red Zone and primetime games, with Giants/Jets on Sundays), I saw countless jump balls thrown Rudolph's way in short yardage and red zone situations (and often, these were off target!), but I rarely saw him get a pass in stride when in the open field. Perhaps he doesn't get separation very well, but Ponder was a pretty bad QB last year. I'm absolutely not super-high on Rudolph as an elite NFL player, as he doesn't have Gronkowski's ability to shed tackles, but with a capable QB, I think he could have 15+ TD potential (with a solid 750 (?) yards or so) just with his ability on jump balls in the end zone, which is elite fantasy production in any year but 2011.

Only one TE in history has ever gotten 15+ TDs- Gronk had 17 in 2011. And that was from an All Pro talent catching passes from a first-ballot HoFer in the most prolific, record-setting offensive system in history. Vernon Davis and Antonio Gates each had a 13 TD season, and five guys (Christensen, Ditka, Jerry Smith, Parks, and Walls) managed 12 scores. No one else has ever gotten more than 11- not Gonzo, not Sharpe, not Coates, not Newsome or Winslow (Jr. or Sr.). Not Dave Casper or Dallas Clark, John Mackie or Jackie Smith. Only 20 guys in NFL history have even hit 10 TDs, only 6 have done it twice, and only Gates, Gonzo, and Gronk have managed it three times.I would say that Rudolph has very, very little upside over what he did last year in terms of TD production. If he's going to improve as a fantasy asset, he'll have to increase that yardage number and hope that he can just prevent the TDs from decreasing too much.

Most TEs (now, or historically) are not the primary red zone target for their team. The Vikings had 18 passing TDs (that's really bad) in 2012 - Rudolph had 9 of those. Give him a QB that can hit his target somewhat accurate while on the run, and the sky is the limit, assuming the Vikings don't pick up good WRs to compete for the primary RZ targets.

I agree that Rudolph's upside is limited, entirely because of his QB. I think he's a better player than his 2012 stats, but I'm not paying his 2013 price (I did own him in -all- of my 2012 teams, as I waited on TE and he was my sleeper target).

 

[Adam Harstad]

Most TEs (now, or historically) are not the primary red zone target for their team. The Vikings had 18 passing TDs (that's really bad) in 2012 - Rudolph had 9 of those. Give him a QB that can hit his target somewhat accurate while on the run, and the sky is the limit, assuming the Vikings don't pick up good WRs to compete for the primary RZ targets. I agree that Rudolph's upside is limited, entirely because of his QB. I think he's a better player than his 2012 stats, but I'm not paying his 2013 price (I did own him in -all- of my 2012 teams, as I waited on TE and he was my sleeper target).

Most TEs aren't, but some have been- including some a lot more talented than Rudolph (such as Gates, Gonzo, Sharpe, Winslow, and Ditka). Even if you extend the definition, though, only 18 pass catchers have ever had 15+ TDs. Rice, Moss, Owens, and Harrison are the only people who have ever done it twice. Rice and Moss are the only ones who have done it three or more times (5 for Rice, 4 for Moss). Almost all of the 15+ guys played in explosive offenses. Rudolph got 50% of Min's passing TDs last year, but that's not sustainable over the long run. If he keeps scoring more than half of Minny's red zone TDs, defenses are going to wise to it and start doubling him more (which should be much more achievable when Peterson isn't playing the best football any RB has ever played in history, like he was over the last half of the season), and I just don't think he's talented enough to beat it. Antonio Gates, the best red zone TE in history (pre-Gronkowski) made 8 pro bowls and 3 first team All Pros playing with a pair of elite QBs in an offense that ranked in the top 5 in scoring for 8 straight years, and yet he still averaged fewer than 10 TDs per 16 games (9.8 per 16, if you toss out his rookie year). And that was with many more receptions for many more yards (which means he was padding his total with longer TDs, too). I just don't think Rudolph is good enough to get this kind of production- production that dwarfs HoF TEs in elite offenses. I suppose it's possible he gets 15 scores some year- Braylon Edwards and Muhsin Muhammad both managed it- albeit in 1300+ yards and 80+ receptions. I just think it's a wildly optimistic projection. The only TE in the league today that I'd ever predict for double-digit scores is The Gronk. Kyle Rudolph just isn't that talented, and the Vikings offense definitely isn't that explosive.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

I went back and watched Rudolph tape from 2012 after seeing this thread stay on the first page for a while... same as it ever was - great hands and skills - very average burst/speed in his routes and very little separation or after the catch. I don't see how he'll ever threaten to be more than a low TE1.

 

[ghostguy123]

Why does this seem like it is going in the direction of "since Rudolph wont ever be a mega-stud, he must be overrated and not worth much".

No one thinks he will be a mega stud, do they? Maybe a few people in the world I guess, like his parents, maybe a few cousins or something.

But he is young and has played with a trash QB, and still done well enough to be a playable starting TE to this point. He has value. I do agree he is SLIGHTLY overrated based on most ranking of him I see, but that doesnt mean that he doesnt carry decent value.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

im sure this was brought up upthread, but part of the "overrated" label is that after the top 5 TE in dynasty rankings, there's a sizable dropoff to the next tier (maybe even after the top 3). So Rudolph might be rated 6-8, but he is really worth a small fraction of the guys at 1-3, and that is not true at other positions

 

[ghostguy123]

im sure this was brought up upthread, but part of the "overrated" label is that after the top 5 TE in dynasty rankings, there's a sizable dropoff to the next tier (maybe even after the top 3). So Rudolph might be rated 6-8, but he is really worth a small fraction of the guys at 1-3, and that is not true at other positions

How does that equate to overrated??? SOMEONE has to be ranked 4-5-6-7..............

Some people will rank his "value" a lot closer to the top 3-4 guys than others, which to me means they would be overrating him. But I think most people feel he is maybe the top end of a clump of guys, and that clump of guys is pretty far behind the top few guys.

 

[thriftyrocker]

Why does this seem like it is going in the direction of "since Rudolph wont ever be a mega-stud, he must be overrated and not worth much".

No one thinks he will be a mega stud, do they? Maybe a few people in the world I guess, like his parents, maybe a few cousins or something.

But he is young and has played with a trash QB, and still done well enough to be a playable starting TE to this point. He has value. I do agree he is SLIGHTLY overrated based on most ranking of him I see, but that doesnt mean that he doesnt carry decent value.

Read the OP again. It has nothing to do with "somebody has to be ranked 5th or 6th". It has to do with Scott Chandler and Ben Watson having more receiving yards than Rudolph. He did "well enough to be a playable starting TE" only barely and largely due to TDs.

He is in a spot where his production has to go up to justify his ranking. He's not worth his ADP by several rounds if his yardage doesn't go up by 40+% next year, which is a pretty precarious statement.

 

[ghostguy123]

Why does this seem like it is going in the direction of "since Rudolph wont ever be a mega-stud, he must be overrated and not worth much".

No one thinks he will be a mega stud, do they? Maybe a few people in the world I guess, like his parents, maybe a few cousins or something.

But he is young and has played with a trash QB, and still done well enough to be a playable starting TE to this point. He has value. I do agree he is SLIGHTLY overrated based on most ranking of him I see, but that doesnt mean that he doesnt carry decent value.

Read the OP again. It has nothing to do with "somebody has to be ranked 5th or 6th". It has to do with Scott Chandler and Ben Watson having more receiving yards than Rudolph. He did "well enough to be a playable starting TE" only barely and largely due to TDs.

He is in a spot where his production has to go up to justify his ranking. He's not worth his ADP by several rounds if his yardage doesn't go up by 40+% next year, which is a pretty precarious statement.

Which is why I said "going in the direction of....."

And there are LOT of players whos production has to go up to justify their rankings.

As for Rudolph's yardage, they ran a ton, had pretty terrible Qb play, and Harvin was there.

Who knows how long AP will run like a horse, and who knows how long they will have terrible QB play. Harvin gone for this season I think will give Rudolph a boost in targets and yards, and maybe a pretty significant boost.

Not many TEs would have been producing in his situation the past year or two.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

, but with a capable QB, I think he could have 15+ TD potential (with a solid 750 (?) yards or so) just with his ability on jump balls in the end zone, which is elite fantasy production in any year but 2011.

The fact that people are saying this is why he is overrated. He benefited greatly from the attention that AD and Percy demanded and he caught an unsustainable amount of TD's.

Remember when Marcedes Lewis caught 10 tds in 2010 and then disappeared?

 

[ghostguy123]

, but with a capable QB, I think he could have 15+ TD potential (with a solid 750 (?) yards or so) just with his ability on jump balls in the end zone, which is elite fantasy production in any year but 2011.

The fact that people are saying this is why he is overrated. He benefited greatly from the attention that AD and Percy demanded and he caught an unsustainable amount of TD's.

Remember when Marcedes Lewis caught 10 tds in 2010 and then disappeared?

15 TDs is crazy talk. It is POSSIBLE, but if you are gonna count on that even if he plays with a stud QB, you will be disappointed.

His receptions and yards shoudl go up significantly with a good Qb though.

 

[BrainDeadGenius]

I really don't understand. Rudolph is as good as anyone to be ranked 5th for dynasty TEs. People are splitting hairs ridiculously thin.

 

[Adam Harstad]

I really don't understand. Rudolph is as good as anyone to be ranked 5th for dynasty TEs. People are splitting hairs ridiculously thin.

He's as good as anyone else you could rank in the top 5 this year, sure, but this year is a really weak TE class. Consider the 2010 TE class, for instance: you had a 30 year old Gates, 31 year old Clark, and 34 year old Gonzalez. You had 28 year old Witten and a 26 year old Vernon coming off a season where he tied the TD record. Kellen Winslow, Owen Daniels, and Brent Celek were all 27 or younger with solid seasons under their belt. Gresham, Gronk, and Hernandez all were highly-regarded rookie prospects. Zach Miller and John Carlson were coming off of blazing fast starts to their career. Heath Miller, Chris Cooley, Greg Olsen, and Dustin Keller were solid guys with reasons for optimism. And, of course, Jermichael Finley was the savior of all humanity. The entire TE class was just so much stronger from top to bottom.

 

[Biabreakable]

So does everyone still think Eifert is clearly ahead of Rudolph now that he was drafted 21st by the Bengals?

 

[EBF]

I still do. It might turn out that Eifert is destined to become the Jonathan Stewart of TEs, but his talent is still >> Rudolph's talent despite the landing spot.

How many people ignored Dwayne Allen and Aaron Hernandez because they went to teams that already had another viable TE in the fold? I think it was a mistake then and I think it would be a mistake to bail on Eifert now. I wouldn't put it past Cincy to completely flub this, but I've gotta believe they have a plan for a player that they spent such a high pick on.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

The plan is probably to let Gresham go in FA when the time comes, if I had to guess.

 

[werdnoynek]

The plan is probably to let Gresham go in FA when the time comes, if I had to guess.

Sure it could happen but who knows. 2 TE's seems to be trendy... (see this pick)

 

[Adam Harstad]

So does everyone still think Eifert is clearly ahead of Rudolph now that he was drafted 21st by the Bengals?

I'd still take Eifert over Rudolph.

 

[squistion]

So does everyone still think Eifert is clearly ahead of Rudolph now that he was drafted 21st by the Bengals?

I'd still take Eifert over Rudolph.

I wouldn't. I own Rudolph in one league and wouldn't make a straight up trade at this point in time.

 

[Scooby1974]

Rudolph may not be a world beater, but he is talented. The running game sucked up the ball, Harvin got hurt, and left Rudolph to be double-teamed. Much has changed with the addition of Jennings and now Patterson to stretch the field and improvement on the Defensive side of the ball. I think Rudolph will see more 1 on 1 coverage and more space, and therefore more Yards. TD's are a crapshoot, but the kid has proven he has the mitts to go up and get the ball.

 

[EBF]

Scrub.

 

[ShaHBucks]

Scrub.

I was going to say add this one to your sig! Maybe spell funky. Roudolph could have been Y. Then I notice you don't have one anymore :-/

 

[wormburner]

Anything even remotely positive expected once Freeman starts chucking it deep? Maybe open things up a little underneath?

 

[EBF]

Anything even remotely positive expected once Freeman starts chucking it deep? Maybe open things up a little underneath?

Can't hurt. I think Rudolph will probably beat his current pace of ~400 yards when all is said and done.

 

[ILUVBEER99]

He's a guy I never understood why he was rated so high. His production was all based on a huge number of TD's. Without that he's awful in FF

 

[Nucker101]

He'll probably pop back on the radar if the Vikes ever land a good QB. Would also help if the Vikins had another good receiving threat in the endzone(I don't see Jennings or Simpson as very good redzone threats). Not too hard for defenses to mainly focus on him in the redzone and force the others to beat them when the Vikes actually do decide to pass the ball.

 

[32 Counter Pass]

Nowhere to go but up. That said, I hate holding this guy.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

So does everyone still think Eifert is clearly ahead of Rudolph now that he was drafted 21st by the Bengals?

I'd still take Eifert over Rudolph.

I wouldn't. I own Rudolph in one league and wouldn't make a straight up trade at this point in time.

Only 5 games in, but Eifert is out-producing Rudolph so far, splitting targets with Gresham.

 

[Eminence]

Ponder has been running in at the Redzone. That really has hurt Rudolph's Redzone stats. Last season may have been an anomaly, glad I don't own him. I'd like to acquire him as my backup TE though.

 

[cstu]

4/89/1 tonight with a 51 yard catch. Missed another TD that went off his fingertips which looked a little overthrown by Cassel.

 

[cdubz]

4/89/1 tonight with a 51 yard catch. Missed another TD that went off his fingertips which looked a little overthrown by Cassel.

Unfortunately, think tonight's performance is going to give a decent boost to his ADP. Charchian, local guy who is pretty objective on Min players, on the couch with Bloom was talking him up. Have to love the TE in a Norv system to start and team re-upped him knowing his price would be significantly higher after the season.

 

[EBF]

Six years of stats are more telling to me than one preseason game. Here are his yards-per-catch averages at ND and in the NFL:

2008 - 11.7

2009 - 11.0

2010 - 11.7

---------

2011 - 9.6

2012 - 9.3

2013 - 10.4

The guy is a good player capable of top 10 numbers, but he runs a 4.8 40 and it shows in his production. Very few big plays and very modest yards per catch.

IIRC he was rated as the #4 dynasty TE at the time that I created this thread. With that in mind, I have no regrets about calling him out as overrated.

He's good, but there's little indication that he's THAT good.

 

[Brewtown]

Six years of stats are more telling to me than one preseason game. Here are his yards-per-catch averages at ND and in the NFL:

2008 - 11.7

2009 - 11.0

2010 - 11.7

---------

2011 - 9.6

2012 - 9.3

2013 - 10.4

The guy is a good player capable of top 10 numbers, but he runs a 4.8 40 and it shows in his production. Very few big plays and very modest yards per catch.

IIRC he was rated as the #4 dynasty TE at the time that I created this thread. With that in mind, I have no regrets about calling him out as overrated.

He's good, but there's little indication that he's THAT good.

I think that he is that good. He has shown enough flashes for me to say if he is given consistent looks from a good QB in a well executed offense - I think he can put up top 5 numbers for many years...

 

[Gene Sackman]

Six years of stats are more telling to me than one preseason game. Here are his yards-per-catch averages at ND and in the NFL:

2008 - 11.7

2009 - 11.0

2010 - 11.7

---------

2011 - 9.6

2012 - 9.3

2013 - 10.4

The guy is a good player capable of top 10 numbers, but he runs a 4.8 40 and it shows in his production. Very few big plays and very modest yards per catch.

IIRC he was rated as the #4 dynasty TE at the time that I created this thread. With that in mind, I have no regrets about calling him out as overrated.

He's good, but there's little indication that he's THAT good.

Norv Turner my man, Norv Turner... He might be the number 2 TE this year.

 

[jeaton6]

Six years of stats are more telling to me than one preseason game. Here are his yards-per-catch averages at ND and in the NFL:

2008 - 11.7

2009 - 11.0

2010 - 11.7

---------

2011 - 9.6

2012 - 9.3

2013 - 10.4

The guy is a good player capable of top 10 numbers, but he runs a 4.8 40 and it shows in his production. Very few big plays and very modest yards per catch.

IIRC he was rated as the #4 dynasty TE at the time that I created this thread. With that in mind, I have no regrets about calling him out as overrated.

He's good, but there's little indication that he's THAT good.

Norv Turner my man, Norv Turner... He might be the number 2 TE this year.

Exactly how long does everyone actually expect Norv Turner to stick around as OC? 1 year, 2 years? He has never been OC for more than 3 years, sometimes bc of HC gigs other times not.

 

[snellman]

Six years of stats are more telling to me than one preseason game. Here are his yards-per-catch averages at ND and in the NFL:

2008 - 11.7

2009 - 11.0

2010 - 11.7

---------

2011 - 9.6

2012 - 9.3

2013 - 10.4

The guy is a good player capable of top 10 numbers, but he runs a 4.8 40 and it shows in his production. Very few big plays and very modest yards per catch.

IIRC he was rated as the #4 dynasty TE at the time that I created this thread. With that in mind, I have no regrets about calling him out as overrated.

He's good, but there's little indication that he's THAT good.

Norv Turner my man, Norv Turner... He might be the number 2 TE this year.

Exactly how long does everyone actually expect Norv Turner to stick around as OC? 1 year, 2 years? He has never been OC for more than 3 years, sometimes bc of HC gigs other times not.

I may be a little homer biased, but I can see Norv sticking around for more than 3 years if everything goes well and according to plan. There was an interview with Turner and he sounded like he isn't very interested in the head coaching gig anymore and is comfortable in the OC role. Even if he is only in Minn 2-3 years, we don't look to much further beyond that in dynasty anyway.

 

[Heatman]

Six years of stats are more telling to me than one preseason game. Here are his yards-per-catch averages at ND and in the NFL:

2008 - 11.7

2009 - 11.0

2010 - 11.7

---------

2011 - 9.6

2012 - 9.3

2013 - 10.4

The guy is a good player capable of top 10 numbers, but he runs a 4.8 40 and it shows in his production. Very few big plays and very modest yards per catch.

IIRC he was rated as the #4 dynasty TE at the time that I created this thread. With that in mind, I have no regrets about calling him out as overrated.

He's good, but there's little indication that he's THAT good.

Coaching had a major role in his, Peterson and others complete misuse.

 

[tdmills]

Six years of stats are more telling to me than one preseason game. Here are his yards-per-catch averages at ND and in the NFL:

2008 - 11.7

2009 - 11.0

2010 - 11.7

---------

2011 - 9.6

2012 - 9.3

2013 - 10.4

The guy is a good player capable of top 10 numbers, but he runs a 4.8 40 and it shows in his production. Very few big plays and very modest yards per catch.

IIRC he was rated as the #4 dynasty TE at the time that I created this thread. With that in mind, I have no regrets about calling him out as overrated.

He's good, but there's little indication that he's THAT good.

Norv Turner my man, Norv Turner... He might be the number 2 TE this year.

Norv Turner also had Vernon Davis for a year and he posted 20/265/2. People need to stop thinking Norv Turner is going to make a player just because he's Norv Turner. Antonio Gates would've been Antonio Gates with or without Norv Turner...THE PLAYERS DO MATTER. Kyle Rudolph isn't even close to as athletic as Gates or Jordan Cameron.

 

[Gene Sackman]

Six years of stats are more telling to me than one preseason game. Here are his yards-per-catch averages at ND and in the NFL:

2008 - 11.7

2009 - 11.0

2010 - 11.7

---------

2011 - 9.6

2012 - 9.3

2013 - 10.4

The guy is a good player capable of top 10 numbers, but he runs a 4.8 40 and it shows in his production. Very few big plays and very modest yards per catch.

IIRC he was rated as the #4 dynasty TE at the time that I created this thread. With that in mind, I have no regrets about calling him out as overrated.

He's good, but there's little indication that he's THAT good.

Norv Turner my man, Norv Turner... He might be the number 2 TE this year.

Norv Turner also had Vernon Davis for a year and he posted 20/265/2. People need to stop thinking Norv Turner is going to make a player just because he's Norv Turner. Antonio Gates would've been Antonio Gates with or without Norv Turner...THE PLAYERS DO MATTER. Kyle Rudolph isn't even close to as athletic as Gates or Jordan Cameron.

Closer than you think. And that is why Norv will want to get him involved whenever he can.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Six years of stats are more telling to me than one preseason game. Here are his yards-per-catch averages at ND and in the NFL:

2008 - 11.7

2009 - 11.0

2010 - 11.7

---------

2011 - 9.6

2012 - 9.3

2013 - 10.4

The guy is a good player capable of top 10 numbers, but he runs a 4.8 40 and it shows in his production. Very few big plays and very modest yards per catch.

IIRC he was rated as the #4 dynasty TE at the time that I created this thread. With that in mind, I have no regrets about calling him out as overrated.

He's good, but there's little indication that he's THAT good.

Norv Turner my man, Norv Turner... He might be the number 2 TE this year.

Norv Turner also had Vernon Davis for a year and he posted 20/265/2. People need to stop thinking Norv Turner is going to make a player just because he's Norv Turner. Antonio Gates would've been Antonio Gates with or without Norv Turner...THE PLAYERS DO MATTER. Kyle Rudolph isn't even close to as athletic as Gates or Jordan Cameron.

yeah, I believe it was actually 3 td in his rookie year when he broke his leg in week 3 and missed half the season.

individual talent is obviously a big part of it, and norv clearly didn't make gates, but so is opportunity, and I believe cameron ran more routes than any other te last year.

 

[Gene Sackman]

Six years of stats are more telling to me than one preseason game. Here are his yards-per-catch averages at ND and in the NFL:

2008 - 11.7

2009 - 11.0

2010 - 11.7

---------

2011 - 9.6

2012 - 9.3

2013 - 10.4

The guy is a good player capable of top 10 numbers, but he runs a 4.8 40 and it shows in his production. Very few big plays and very modest yards per catch.

IIRC he was rated as the #4 dynasty TE at the time that I created this thread. With that in mind, I have no regrets about calling him out as overrated.

He's good, but there's little indication that he's THAT good.

Norv Turner my man, Norv Turner... He might be the number 2 TE this year.

Norv Turner also had Vernon Davis for a year and he posted 20/265/2. People need to stop thinking Norv Turner is going to make a player just because he's Norv Turner. Antonio Gates would've been Antonio Gates with or without Norv Turner...THE PLAYERS DO MATTER. Kyle Rudolph isn't even close to as athletic as Gates or Jordan Cameron.

yeah, I believe it was actually 3 td in his rookie year when he broke his leg in week 3 and missed half the season.

individual talent is obviously a big part of it, and norv clearly didn't make gates, but so is opportunity, and I believe cameron ran more routes than any other te last year.

OH YEAH!!!!

 

[EBF]

Any OC would look like a TE guru with Gates, Davis, and Cameron on his CV. Those guys are elite top shelf talents.

 

[Bojang0301]

Any OC would look like a TE guru with Gates, Davis, and Cameron on his CV. Those guys are elite top shelf talents.

None of them were before Norv, IIRC from the top of my head.Scratch that I was at least wrong about Gates. Which means my timeline may be wrong about Davis as well. '06 was Davis rookie year. Far from inspiring. I think the conclusion that can be safely stated is Norv's offense is a catalyst for TE success but does not guarantee it.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Any OC would look like a TE guru with Gates, Davis, and Cameron on his CV. Those guys are elite top shelf talents.

None of them were before Norv, IIRC from the top of my head.Scratch that I was at least wrong about Gates. Which means my timeline may be wrong about Davis as well.

wut

 

[EBF]

Gates was already an All-Pro type of guy when Norv went to SD. He only had Vernon for his rookie year, which was far from his best season.

His arrival in Cleveland did coincide with Cameron's breakout. You can say that's because of Norv, Cameron, or both. Personally, I think Cameron is a beast whose talent is still underrated even after his big year. Norv recognized what he had and got good production out of him, but Norv didn't make him 6'5" 250 with 4.5 speed and WR-like mobility. Cameron is pretty freakish. Any competent coach should've been able to recognize that and utilize him accordingly, IMO.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

I think a lot of what people see as cameron type production was an impression formed during a huge first month of the year.

over his last 11 games he actually only managed 2 td and 2 games with 70+ yds.

still, he ran a lot of routes and he got a lot of targets, which I think is the allure for rudolph this year in an offense that might give him some td opps

 

[Xue]

Any OC would look like a TE guru with Gates, Davis, and Cameron on his CV. Those guys are elite top shelf talents.

Gates is an elite talent? Based on what? What were his measurables again?

Gates and Cameron weren't drafted in the top of the 1st round, therefore, they aren't elite talents. Eric Ebron is, though, despite not even playing a regular season game.

Any OC would look like a TE guru if they actually used their TEs. See: Gary Kubiak.