Electric Cars (Tesla and Others) (5 Viewers)

[Faust]

Tesla Sentiment Rattled by Low Cybertruck Trade-in Value

 

[JohnnyU]

I hear a battery cost a fortune if you ever have to get it replaced.

 

[Tick]

I grabbed a spot in the Slate queue.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

R2: Ready for the Wild - Rivian Stories | Electric Vehicle Adventures

In this phase of validation, production-intent vehicles are put through long cycles and extreme conditions, all to ensure R2 is ready for any adventure you may have in 2026 and far beyond.As these vehicles head into the wild, they'll be wrapped in a colorful, custom camouflage. While the R2...

stories.rivian.com

R2 headed out for validation phase. The wraps look kind of cool.

Paid like $150 to be on the wait list. I like the Rivian look.

 

[the moops]

I hear a battery cost a fortune if you ever have to get it replaced.

Feel like this post came from 2015

 

[Terminalxylem]

R2: Ready for the Wild - Rivian Stories | Electric Vehicle Adventures

In this phase of validation, production-intent vehicles are put through long cycles and extreme conditions, all to ensure R2 is ready for any adventure you may have in 2026 and far beyond.As these vehicles head into the wild, they'll be wrapped in a colorful, custom camouflage. While the R2...

stories.rivian.com

R2 headed out for validation phase. The wraps look kind of cool.

Paid like $150 to be on the wait list. I like the Rivian look.

I don’t like the bigger vehicles, but the R3 has piqued my interest. Anybody know if it is on schedule for 2027 release?

 

[the moops]

Anyone interested in these? I’m intrigued.

SLATE

SLATE Auto | The Customizable EV That Works for You

www.slate.auto

 

[the moops]

And these too

TELO Trucks | The All-Electric Mini Truck

Say hello to TELO, the all-electric mini truck. Designed from the ground up for efficiency and practicality.

www.telotrucks.com

 

[Tick]

Anyone interested in these? I’m intrigued.

SLATE

SLATE Auto | The Customizable EV That Works for You

www.slate.auto

Yes, I'm in the queue. My son also wants one (independently - he told me about them when I was already in the waitlist).

 

[Tick]

And these too

TELO Trucks | The All-Electric Mini Truck

Say hello to TELO, the all-electric mini truck. Designed from the ground up for efficiency and practicality.

www.telotrucks.com

Looks really cool, I watched the Leno video... but it's so crazy expensive. I want to reward Slate for what they're trying - I've mostly felt I'd rather turn a crank for the windows than be forced to pay for automatic windows.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Anyone interested in these? I’m intrigued.

SLATE

SLATE Auto | The Customizable EV That Works for You

www.slate.auto

If they can be turn them into sedans, or maybe a hatchback, I’m in.

Why, why has everyone given up on driving normal sized cars?

 

[Terminalxylem]

And these too

TELO Trucks | The All-Electric Mini Truck

Say hello to TELO, the all-electric mini truck. Designed from the ground up for efficiency and practicality.

www.telotrucks.com

Oooo, mini trucks I can do. Looks like these guys are targeting those who don’t need car-crushing size.

 

[BlackCrowes]

And these too

TELO Trucks | The All-Electric Mini Truck

Say hello to TELO, the all-electric mini truck. Designed from the ground up for efficiency and practicality.

www.telotrucks.com

not having more car in front of me would freak me out a little

 

[culdeus]

I hear a battery cost a fortune if you ever have to get it replaced.

Feel like this post came from 2015

I saw this and was like where's the "jump to new" button again?

 

[CGRdrJoe]

I saw a the electric vw bus yesterday, cool looking but not something that interests me in owning. Now a 64 or 66 21 window bus and I’m dih

 

[Terminalxylem]

Here’s another EV start-up:

I like the performance coupe

But really, how likely is it that many of these companies survive?

 

[Nugget]

Picked up my highlighter yellow MachE on Wednesday. Video montage

Love it so much more than my Explorer. But also swapped cars with my daughter this weekend to take kayaks out to the lake.

 

[BlackCrowes]

Here’s another EV start-up:

I like the performance coupe

But really, how likely is it that many of these companies survive?

im still bitter about Fisker

 

[culdeus]

Here’s another EV start-up:

I like the performance coupe

But really, how likely is it that many of these companies survive?

I think there will be a point where US automakers apply a uniform chassis like China does with CATL packs. Catl sells the same BEV pack to a dozen automakers who put them under a host of designs. Some cheap. Some fancy.

Byd and a couple others make their own stuff and might get some scale advancement, but that's not required.

That's what stellantis tried to copy but didn't quite get there.

 

[culdeus]

There is pretty tremendous hype for the byd inverter solution scheduled to demo this month. I don't know anyone Western media that has seen it.

As best I can tell it takes the approach of basically 4C rate by filling four "tanks" at once with four "pumps" but the secrecy has stayed high and this could all be a letdown

 

[massraider]

There's some really interesting stories about BYD recently. There's some fun videos on YouTube.

The group who raised the alarm on Evergrande has been talking about BYD, who are apparently paying their invoices 8-9 months late, and are not nearly as healthy a company as we were led to believe. Emperor has no clothes.

 

[Dan Lambskin]

Here’s another EV start-up:

I like the performance coupe

But really, how likely is it that many of these companies survive?

I think there will be a point where US automakers apply a uniform chassis like China does with CATL packs. Catl sells the same BEV pack to a dozen automakers who put them under a host of designs. Some cheap. Some fancy.

Byd and a couple others make their own stuff and might get some scale advancement, but that's not required.

That's what stellantis tried to copy but didn't quite get there.

I just don’t think we’re set up that way in the states, China ultimately has government backing in all these companies whereas in the states it’s a bunch of competing private entities

I think there’s also a fundamental difference where US car companies are all trying to maximize shareholder value where in China they are more focused on the engineering advancement whatever the cost. I think BYD employees 100,000 engineers or something like that?

It also seems the Chinese market is moving towards a disposable vehicle model, similar to cell phones, where you upgrade every 2-3 years because of the tech, so you get a lower quality product because they know it will just be replaced anyway

 

[Joe Bryant]

And these too

TELO Trucks | The All-Electric Mini Truck

Say hello to TELO, the all-electric mini truck. Designed from the ground up for efficiency and practicality.

www.telotrucks.com

not having more car in front of me would freak me out a little

Yes. I rode in a tractor trailer 18-wheeler one time and having your bumper be at the same spot as the windshield took some getting used to.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Here’s another EV start-up:

I like the performance coupe

But really, how likely is it that many of these companies survive?

I think there will be a point where US automakers apply a uniform chassis like China does with CATL packs. Catl sells the same BEV pack to a dozen automakers who put them under a host of designs. Some cheap. Some fancy.

Byd and a couple others make their own stuff and might get some scale advancement, but that's not required.

That's what stellantis tried to copy but didn't quite get there.

I just don’t think we’re set up that way in the states, China ultimately has government backing in all these companies whereas in the states it’s a bunch of competing private entities

I think there’s also a fundamental difference where US car companies are all trying to maximize shareholder value where in China they are more focused on the engineering advancement whatever the cost. I think BYD employees 100,000 engineers or something like that?

It also seems the Chinese market is moving towards a disposable vehicle model, similar to cell phones, where you upgrade every 2-3 years because of the tech, so you get a lower quality product because they know it will just be replaced anyway

Seems kinda antithetical to “green” vehicles. And how would autonomous drivers fit into that plan?

 

[Dan Lambskin]

Here’s another EV start-up:

I like the performance coupe

But really, how likely is it that many of these companies survive?

I think there will be a point where US automakers apply a uniform chassis like China does with CATL packs. Catl sells the same BEV pack to a dozen automakers who put them under a host of designs. Some cheap. Some fancy.

Byd and a couple others make their own stuff and might get some scale advancement, but that's not required.

That's what stellantis tried to copy but didn't quite get there.

I just don’t think we’re set up that way in the states, China ultimately has government backing in all these companies whereas in the states it’s a bunch of competing private entities

I think there’s also a fundamental difference where US car companies are all trying to maximize shareholder value where in China they are more focused on the engineering advancement whatever the cost. I think BYD employees 100,000 engineers or something like that?

It also seems the Chinese market is moving towards a disposable vehicle model, similar to cell phones, where you upgrade every 2-3 years because of the tech, so you get a lower quality product because they know it will just be replaced anyway

Seems kinda antithetical to “green” vehicles. And how would autonomous drivers fit into that plan?

Im not sure China is too concerned with going green

 

[culdeus]

Here’s another EV start-up:

I like the performance coupe

But really, how likely is it that many of these companies survive?

I think there will be a point where US automakers apply a uniform chassis like China does with CATL packs. Catl sells the same BEV pack to a dozen automakers who put them under a host of designs. Some cheap. Some fancy.

Byd and a couple others make their own stuff and might get some scale advancement, but that's not required.

That's what stellantis tried to copy but didn't quite get there.

I just don’t think we’re set up that way in the states, China ultimately has government backing in all these companies whereas in the states it’s a bunch of competing private entities

I think there’s also a fundamental difference where US car companies are all trying to maximize shareholder value where in China they are more focused on the engineering advancement whatever the cost. I think BYD employees 100,000 engineers or something like that?

It also seems the Chinese market is moving towards a disposable vehicle model, similar to cell phones, where you upgrade every 2-3 years because of the tech, so you get a lower quality product because they know it will just be replaced anyway

Is this vibes or what?

BYD has enough of a warranty for 8 years and plan for 750k miles. Those are the ones sold in the EU.

If China put their cars in our market it would obliterate anything we have. They are so insanely nice inside, having been in several, that we'd see a complete industry upheaval

 

[Dan Lambskin]

Here’s another EV start-up:

I like the performance coupe

But really, how likely is it that many of these companies survive?

I think there will be a point where US automakers apply a uniform chassis like China does with CATL packs. Catl sells the same BEV pack to a dozen automakers who put them under a host of designs. Some cheap. Some fancy.

Byd and a couple others make their own stuff and might get some scale advancement, but that's not required.

That's what stellantis tried to copy but didn't quite get there.

I just don’t think we’re set up that way in the states, China ultimately has government backing in all these companies whereas in the states it’s a bunch of competing private entities

I think there’s also a fundamental difference where US car companies are all trying to maximize shareholder value where in China they are more focused on the engineering advancement whatever the cost. I think BYD employees 100,000 engineers or something like that?

It also seems the Chinese market is moving towards a disposable vehicle model, similar to cell phones, where you upgrade every 2-3 years because of the tech, so you get a lower quality product because they know it will just be replaced anyway

Is this vibes or what?

BYD has enough of a warranty for 8 years and plan for 750k miles. Those are the ones sold in the EU.

If China put their cars in our market it would obliterate anything we have. They are so insanely nice inside, having been in several, that we'd see a complete industry upheaval

Paraphrasing some stuff from a recent presentation from one of our global leads

I’ve never seen one myself so can’t comment on the quality . I do know that the Chinese OEM are quickly replacing the traditional OEMs in China (VW, Ford, etc) but the message was there’s still a lot of work to do to be competitive in EU and NA so we’ll see

If their warranty is anything similar to my experience with Amazon products it’s usually just replacing a piece of a crap with a newer piece of crap

 

[BassNBrew]

Here’s another EV start-up:

I like the performance coupe

But really, how likely is it that many of these companies survive?

I think there will be a point where US automakers apply a uniform chassis like China does with CATL packs. Catl sells the same BEV pack to a dozen automakers who put them under a host of designs. Some cheap. Some fancy.

Byd and a couple others make their own stuff and might get some scale advancement, but that's not required.

That's what stellantis tried to copy but didn't quite get there.

I just don’t think we’re set up that way in the states, China ultimately has government backing in all these companies whereas in the states it’s a bunch of competing private entities

I think there’s also a fundamental difference where US car companies are all trying to maximize shareholder value where in China they are more focused on the engineering advancement whatever the cost. I think BYD employees 100,000 engineers or something like that?

It also seems the Chinese market is moving towards a disposable vehicle model, similar to cell phones, where you upgrade every 2-3 years because of the tech, so you get a lower quality product because they know it will just be replaced anyway

Is this vibes or what?

BYD has enough of a warranty for 8 years and plan for 750k miles. Those are the ones sold in the EU.

If China put their cars in our market it would obliterate anything we have. They are so insanely nice inside, having been in several, that we'd see a complete industry upheaval

Paraphrasing some stuff from a recent presentation from one of our global leads

I’ve never seen one myself so can’t comment on the quality . I do know that the Chinese OEM are quickly replacing the traditional OEMs in China (VW, Ford, etc) but the message was there’s still a lot of work to do to be competitive in EU and NA so we’ll see

If their warranty is anything similar to my experience with Amazon products it’s usually just replacing a piece of a crap with a newer piece of crap

After charging you for return shipping that is 50% of the original cost.

 

[BassNBrew]

Here’s another EV start-up:

I like the performance coupe

But really, how likely is it that many of these companies survive?

I think there will be a point where US automakers apply a uniform chassis like China does with CATL packs. Catl sells the same BEV pack to a dozen automakers who put them under a host of designs. Some cheap. Some fancy.

Byd and a couple others make their own stuff and might get some scale advancement, but that's not required.

That's what stellantis tried to copy but didn't quite get there.

I just don’t think we’re set up that way in the states, China ultimately has government backing in all these companies whereas in the states it’s a bunch of competing private entities

I think there’s also a fundamental difference where US car companies are all trying to maximize shareholder value where in China they are more focused on the engineering advancement whatever the cost. I think BYD employees 100,000 engineers or something like that?

It also seems the Chinese market is moving towards a disposable vehicle model, similar to cell phones, where you upgrade every 2-3 years because of the tech, so you get a lower quality product because they know it will just be replaced anyway

Is this vibes or what?

BYD has enough of a warranty for 8 years and plan for 750k miles. Those are the ones sold in the EU.

If China put their cars in our market it would obliterate anything we have. They are so insanely nice inside, having been in several, that we'd see a complete industry upheaval

I don't see us allowing China to sell cars that could be controlled by China to drive into whatever they wanted.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Here’s another EV start-up:

I like the performance coupe

But really, how likely is it that many of these companies survive?

I think there will be a point where US automakers apply a uniform chassis like China does with CATL packs. Catl sells the same BEV pack to a dozen automakers who put them under a host of designs. Some cheap. Some fancy.

Byd and a couple others make their own stuff and might get some scale advancement, but that's not required.

That's what stellantis tried to copy but didn't quite get there.

I just don’t think we’re set up that way in the states, China ultimately has government backing in all these companies whereas in the states it’s a bunch of competing private entities

I think there’s also a fundamental difference where US car companies are all trying to maximize shareholder value where in China they are more focused on the engineering advancement whatever the cost. I think BYD employees 100,000 engineers or something like that?

It also seems the Chinese market is moving towards a disposable vehicle model, similar to cell phones, where you upgrade every 2-3 years because of the tech, so you get a lower quality product because they know it will just be replaced anyway

Is this vibes or what?

BYD has enough of a warranty for 8 years and plan for 750k miles. Those are the ones sold in the EU.

If China put their cars in our market it would obliterate anything we have. They are so insanely nice inside, having been in several, that we'd see a complete industry upheaval

I don't see us allowing China to sell cars that could be controlled by China to drive into whatever they wanted.

Yea we won't get them here for that reason. I believe his point was a hypothetical though to illustrate how far ahead those vehicles are for the price.

BYD just opened presales for the Han L EV. For $37k brand new it's as nice as a Cadillac inside and as fast as a Lamborghini.

Almost double the equivalent HP and far nicer interior than, for instance, the Kia EV6 GT that starts at $61k.

 

[MTskibum]

Here’s another EV start-up:

I like the performance coupe

But really, how likely is it that many of these companies survive?

I think there will be a point where US automakers apply a uniform chassis like China does with CATL packs. Catl sells the same BEV pack to a dozen automakers who put them under a host of designs. Some cheap. Some fancy.

Byd and a couple others make their own stuff and might get some scale advancement, but that's not required.

That's what stellantis tried to copy but didn't quite get there.

I just don’t think we’re set up that way in the states, China ultimately has government backing in all these companies whereas in the states it’s a bunch of competing private entities

I think there’s also a fundamental difference where US car companies are all trying to maximize shareholder value where in China they are more focused on the engineering advancement whatever the cost. I think BYD employees 100,000 engineers or something like that?

It also seems the Chinese market is moving towards a disposable vehicle model, similar to cell phones, where you upgrade every 2-3 years because of the tech, so you get a lower quality product because they know it will just be replaced anyway

Is this vibes or what?

BYD has enough of a warranty for 8 years and plan for 750k miles. Those are the ones sold in the EU.

If China put their cars in our market it would obliterate anything we have. They are so insanely nice inside, having been in several, that we'd see a complete industry upheaval

I don't see us allowing China to sell cars that could be controlled by China to drive into whatever they wanted.

Yea we won't get them here for that reason. I believe his point was a hypothetical though to illustrate how far ahead those vehicles are for the price.

BYD just opened presales for the Han L EV. For $37k brand new it's as nice as a Cadillac inside and as fast as a Lamborghini.

Almost double the equivalent HP and far nicer interior than, for instance, the Kia EV6 GT that starts at $61k.

It is much easier to sell cheap cars if all of the r&d and other overhead is subsidized, byd's cars would cost over twice as much without that 3.7 billion dollar subsidy.


edit, corrected a bad auto-correct, some reason my phone changed byd to bud

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Here’s another EV start-up:

I like the performance coupe

But really, how likely is it that many of these companies survive?

I think there will be a point where US automakers apply a uniform chassis like China does with CATL packs. Catl sells the same BEV pack to a dozen automakers who put them under a host of designs. Some cheap. Some fancy.

Byd and a couple others make their own stuff and might get some scale advancement, but that's not required.

That's what stellantis tried to copy but didn't quite get there.

I just don’t think we’re set up that way in the states, China ultimately has government backing in all these companies whereas in the states it’s a bunch of competing private entities

I think there’s also a fundamental difference where US car companies are all trying to maximize shareholder value where in China they are more focused on the engineering advancement whatever the cost. I think BYD employees 100,000 engineers or something like that?

It also seems the Chinese market is moving towards a disposable vehicle model, similar to cell phones, where you upgrade every 2-3 years because of the tech, so you get a lower quality product because they know it will just be replaced anyway

Seems kinda antithetical to “green” vehicles. And how would autonomous drivers fit into that plan?

The Chinese business model when it comes to electric vehicles is not green at all. The Chinese government gave subsidies to companies there for every electric vehicle that they sell. This created a situation where automakers there started producing massive volumes of vehicles and faking sales in order to collect those subsides. The manufacturers would literally pay to register and insure a vehicle, and would cut corners in the production of the vehicles to the point where the subsidy more than covered the cost of the vehicles. The “fake” sales also pumped up sales numbers and Chinese companies would often try to use these “inflated” numbers to solicit investments into the companies (both foreign and domestic). These “new” cars that are “fake sold” are sitting in massive lots all around China and are wreaking havoc on the environment. The mining and rare earth minerals needed to create these vehicles are not mined in ways that are safe for the environment in China. Some of these automakers and parts suppliers for these vehicles utilize slave labor to create them.

Now that the economy has slowed, these manufacturers are trying to generate income by dumping these zero mile used vehicles into poor countries as well as marketing them in China as new used cars. However, because the manufacturers cut corners to make those vehicles as their goal was to fake sales and receive subsidies—these vehicles that they are trying to dump on poor nations and on the Chinese people are known death traps. They are having issues with them catching on fire, airbags not working, and other concerning quality problems. I would be very hesitant to recommend purchasing any Chinese made EV right now. They might look good, and they might seem like a great value proposition, but the quality is questionable at best—and the notion that they are somehow reflective of something that is environmentally friendly is laughable. Chinese mining and Chinese manufacturing is not synonymous with being environmentally friendly or humanitarianly friendly. I encourage you to watch the clip below from a person that spent over a decade living in China.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Another video that shows the house of cards that the Chinese EV market is. Riddled with faked sales in order to collect government subsidies, shipping off “death trap” vehicles that are priced parasitically low to drive manufactures that actually produce decent quality cars to extinction. Slave labor and trafficking by BYD—where they got hit and lost a lawsuit in Brazil because of employees being forced to work in disgusting conditions. The financials of BYD are beyond concerning—with their debt at concerning levels. A large portion of their money comes from the government subsidies—which many are a product of “faked sales”. BYD has $250 billion yuan in accounts payable to parts suppliers and are delaying payments. They are asking parts suppliers to reduce prices (causing many distress and some have even closed). This has led to suppliers and BYD cutting corners to cut costs—resulting in vehicles that have concerning quality problems. The Chinese government aids in censoring Chinese consumers from showing these issues to the point where they detain citizens that post about them. If you look beneath the surface of these low priced Chinese EV’s—what you will find is very scary.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[Tick]

Anyone interested in these? I’m intrigued.

SLATE

SLATE Auto | The Customizable EV That Works for You

www.slate.auto

If they can be turn them into sedans, or maybe a hatchback, I’m in.

Why, why has everyone given up on driving normal sized cars?

Here's a Slate next to a Maverick: https://www.slateforums.com/forum/threads/slate-vs-maverick-size-compared.12634/ Also noticeably smaller than a Hyundai Santa Cruz.

It's roughly the size of a Subaru Impreza - slightly taller, but same width and length.

I can't find the hood height anywhere, and the shape of the hood doesn't look super pedestrian-friendly, but it's not a big vehicle.

ETA: My little Kia Niro is also the same length and width also, that surprises me. 9" shorter though.

 

[ericttspikes]

Tesla Is Cooked. And It's All Xiaomi’s Fault​

https://insideevs.com/reviews/764315/xiaomi-yu7-first-drive-china/?utm_source=Klaviyo&utm_medium=email&_kx=9KTXcCDYq2MTGVmRyXwCMjzsnLzQ7JbF9ywFQ_9jyiE.VCGm8F

 

[Chaos34]

Tesla Is Cooked. And It's All Xiaomi’s Fault​

https://insideevs.com/reviews/764315/xiaomi-yu7-first-drive-china/?utm_source=Klaviyo&utm_medium=email&_kx=9KTXcCDYq2MTGVmRyXwCMjzsnLzQ7JbF9ywFQ_9jyiE.VCGm8F

Yup. I didn't want to reply to jvd's hit pieces above but China is making great cars for the money and every manufacturer knows it. Ford CEO imported the SU7 and didn't want to give it up. It's only allowed here for 6 months, I think. Anyway, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volvo, the Koreans, Ford, etc etc., all are leveraging advanced Chinese auto tech and opening joint projects in China.

The BYD Shark is the best ev truck on the market dollar for dollar. Priced less than a Lightning, close to a Rivian in quality and features. I would have purchased a Chinese MPV by now if I could. They're pretty amazing for the money and I'd still like a mini-van, just nothing available here. They are all over Tijuana.

 

[BassNBrew]

Rivian made an offer on my Gen1 that I couldn't resist so now I'm the owner of a Gen2. It was a tough decision, but the tax credit sunset and new self driving features were the difference. Also upgrade to the max pack but most of that range is offset byt eh off road package.

30,000 miles cost me about $8,400 after tax credit. When I subtract out the fuel cost difference it was about $4000

 

[massraider]

Yup. I didn't want to reply to jvd's hit pieces above but China is making great cars for the money and every manufacturer knows it.

I'd like to know what was wrong in the hit piece, because there are a lot of outlets out there reporting that they aren't paying their bills, are not profitable, and are in real trouble.

The same people who sounded the alarm on Evergrande are warning about BYD

 

[Chaos34]

Yup. I didn't want to reply to jvd's hit pieces above but China is making great cars for the money and every manufacturer knows it.

I'd like to know what was wrong in the hit piece, because there are a lot of outlets out there reporting that they aren't paying their bills, are not profitable, and are in real trouble.

The same people who sounded the alarm on Evergrande are warning about BYD

Sure, and from the top of my head after fact checking those vids a week ago. The financial problems are real, so your concern is valid. Somn somn about BYD agreeing to pay suppliers after the vehicle sells. Unfortunately for them (and other Chinese ev makers are worse off) they vastly over-produced low range evs that didn't sell (up to 2022). Didn't sell, didn't pay suppliers - big mess.

The dramatic take on the environmental disaster is what it is. They didn't just over-produce, they did game the subsidy deal exactly as described, and those lots full of new cars are real but probably exaggerated in scope and environmental disaster. The disaster was building too many not storing them, and they are heavily parted out, batteries deployed in robotic factories, high end interior materials repurposed, etc. The steel is almost 100% recyclable but that's down the road. A benefit is practically giving away undesirable but functioning vehicles for "scrap" prices to an ever more mobile Chinese society. I think I read 13k per anum is the current average salary so cheap cars are helpful when possible.

The subsidy in question was quashed over three years ago, but the video makes it sound like it is ongoing, relentlessly really. Gaming the PRC with fraud for subsidies isn't a good idea. China had a competition subsidizing 12 companies to create the best EVs possible. Post 2022 the manufacturers focused on long range evs with high tech features. Some of these companies will fail, and those still standing will be making some of the best cars out there dollar for dollar.

They're making some really interesting even outstanding vehicles that outsell Tesla in many European markets and elsewhere. Europe's safety standards are more stringent than ours and Chinese EVs pass them with flying colors. This is the reason I called it a hit piece. There's been fires. They're hard to extinguish. A boat sunk loaded with Chinese EVs after just one caught fire. 800 cars went to the bottom of the ocean. That skewed the stats. Ice vehicles catch fire far more often than EVs. Chinese EVs catch fire as frequently as Teslas, no more no less - all EVs have fires far less, far less than ICE vehicles. So all the fire drama in the videos is the "hit piece" portion. I could go on, but this is long. Most major auto brands outside of China are scrambling to get into China because of the tech and innovation. Geely owns Volvo. Are Volvos now unsafe? No, not at all.

 

[culdeus]

Yup. I didn't want to reply to jvd's hit pieces above but China is making great cars for the money and every manufacturer knows it.

I'd like to know what was wrong in the hit piece, because there are a lot of outlets out there reporting that they aren't paying their bills, are not profitable, and are in real trouble.

The same people who sounded the alarm on Evergrande are warning about BYD

Sure, and from the top of my head after fact checking those vids a week ago. The financial problems are real, so your concern is valid. Somn somn about BYD agreeing to pay suppliers after the vehicle sells. Unfortunately for them (and other Chinese ev makers are worse off) they vastly over-produced low range evs that didn't sell (up to 2022). Didn't sell, didn't pay suppliers - big mess.

The dramatic take on the environmental disaster is what it is. They didn't just over-produce, they did game the subsidy deal exactly as described, and those lots full of new cars are real but probably exaggerated in scope and environmental disaster. The disaster was building too many not storing them, and they are heavily parted out, batteries deployed in robotic factories, high end interior materials repurposed, etc. The steel is almost 100% recyclable but that's down the road. A benefit is practically giving away undesirable but functioning vehicles for "scrap" prices to an ever more mobile Chinese society. I think I read 13k per anum is the current average salary so cheap cars are helpful when possible.

The subsidy in question was quashed over three years ago, but the video makes it sound like it is ongoing, relentlessly really. Gaming the PRC with fraud for subsidies isn't a good idea. China had a competition subsidizing 12 companies to create the best EVs possible. Post 2022 the manufacturers focused on long range evs with high tech features. Some of these companies will fail, and those still standing will be making some of the best cars out there dollar for dollar.

They're making some really interesting even outstanding vehicles that outsell Tesla in many European markets and elsewhere. Europe's safety standards are more stringent than ours and Chinese EVs pass them with flying colors. This is the reason I called it a hit piece. There's been fires. They're hard to extinguish. A boat sunk loaded with Chinese EVs after just one caught fire. 800 cars went to the bottom of the ocean. That skewed the stats. Ice vehicles catch fire far more often than EVs. Chinese EVs catch fire as frequently as Teslas, no more no less - all EVs have fires far less, far less than ICE vehicles. So all the fire drama in the videos is the "hit piece" portion. I could go on, but this is long. Most major auto brands outside of China are scrambling to get into China because of the tech and innovation. Geely owns Volvo. Are Volvos now unsafe? No, not at all.

I don't really care if some company in China scammed subs or is going under. They are throwing everything at this tech, both good and bad. Some of it will bleed over. Hopefully the good stuff.

 

[massraider]

Yup. I didn't want to reply to jvd's hit pieces above but China is making great cars for the money and every manufacturer knows it.

I'd like to know what was wrong in the hit piece, because there are a lot of outlets out there reporting that they aren't paying their bills, are not profitable, and are in real trouble.

The same people who sounded the alarm on Evergrande are warning about BYD

Sure, and from the top of my head after fact checking those vids a week ago. The financial problems are real, so your concern is valid. Somn somn about BYD agreeing to pay suppliers after the vehicle sells. Unfortunately for them (and other Chinese ev makers are worse off) they vastly over-produced low range evs that didn't sell (up to 2022). Didn't sell, didn't pay suppliers - big mess.

The dramatic take on the environmental disaster is what it is. They didn't just over-produce, they did game the subsidy deal exactly as described, and those lots full of new cars are real but probably exaggerated in scope and environmental disaster. The disaster was building too many not storing them, and they are heavily parted out, batteries deployed in robotic factories, high end interior materials repurposed, etc. The steel is almost 100% recyclable but that's down the road. A benefit is practically giving away undesirable but functioning vehicles for "scrap" prices to an ever more mobile Chinese society. I think I read 13k per anum is the current average salary so cheap cars are helpful when possible.

The subsidy in question was quashed over three years ago, but the video makes it sound like it is ongoing, relentlessly really. Gaming the PRC with fraud for subsidies isn't a good idea. China had a competition subsidizing 12 companies to create the best EVs possible. Post 2022 the manufacturers focused on long range evs with high tech features. Some of these companies will fail, and those still standing will be making some of the best cars out there dollar for dollar.

They're making some really interesting even outstanding vehicles that outsell Tesla in many European markets and elsewhere. Europe's safety standards are more stringent than ours and Chinese EVs pass them with flying colors. This is the reason I called it a hit piece. There's been fires. They're hard to extinguish. A boat sunk loaded with Chinese EVs after just one caught fire. 800 cars went to the bottom of the ocean. That skewed the stats. Ice vehicles catch fire far more often than EVs. Chinese EVs catch fire as frequently as Teslas, no more no less - all EVs have fires far less, far less than ICE vehicles. So all the fire drama in the videos is the "hit piece" portion. I could go on, but this is long. Most major auto brands outside of China are scrambling to get into China because of the tech and innovation. Geely owns Volvo. Are Volvos now unsafe? No, not at all.

I don't really care if some company in China scammed subs or is going under. They are throwing everything at this tech, both good and bad. Some of it will bleed over. Hopefully the good stuff.

Really good point.

Those Instagram guys that show the new Chinese EVs are great. Some of these models look 5 years ahead of US models

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Tesla Is Cooked. And It's All Xiaomi’s Fault​

https://insideevs.com/reviews/764315/xiaomi-yu7-first-drive-china/?utm_source=Klaviyo&utm_medium=email&_kx=9KTXcCDYq2MTGVmRyXwCMjzsnLzQ7JbF9ywFQ_9jyiE.VCGm8F

Yup. I didn't want to reply to jvd's hit pieces above but China is making great cars for the money and every manufacturer knows it. Ford CEO imported the SU7 and didn't want to give it up. It's only allowed here for 6 months, I think. Anyway, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volvo, the Koreans, Ford, etc etc., all are leveraging advanced Chinese auto tech and opening joint projects in China.

The BYD Shark is the best ev truck on the market dollar for dollar. Priced less than a Lightning, close to a Rivian in quality and features. I would have purchased a Chinese MPV by now if I could. They're pretty amazing for the money and I'd still like a mini-van, just nothing available here. They are all over Tijuana.

I’m not sure why you would categorize them as “hit pieces”. The gentleman that put out the first piece has worked for several technology companies in China for over a decade and is aware of the business practices that go on there. The fact that there are fields of over-produced low quality cars sitting all across the country is a fact. The dynamic that they made those vehicles not only to take advantage of subsidies—but to create fraudulent sales data as a means of getting more and more investment both foreign and domestic is also true. Manufacturing in China is not done in an environmentally friendly way under any circumstance—-that is just a fact. There is a reason why a lot of companies from around the world go there—and it’s not just because of cheap slave labor. It’s also because of far more relaxed regulations when it comes to the environmental stuff. The economics of BYD and a lot of the other Chinese EV companies is not a “hit piece”—-thats data—and the data from China tends to underestimate concerns (not overestimate them). A lot of suppliers of parts for these vehicles are not getting paid and will slowly go under—which will make long term maintenance and availability of parts very questionable. The fact that Brazil sued BYD for putting workers in its factory in slave-like conditions is not a “hit-piece”—its real data. If the conditions were so bad in Brazil that they took action—how do you think the conditions are for the workers in mainland China—where nobody will take action for them? I understand that a lot of you love the idea of vehicles that look good, that seem solid on paper, for a price that is a fraction of the competition to just exist magically and without any negative consequences—but that is just not reality. If something seems too good to be true—-there is almost always a reason. Let’s just say that I’m happy to sit back and wait for 5-7 years and see how these Chinese EV’s treat their buyers over time. My prediction is that they will end up being almost disposable.

If you purchase a Chinese EV , the best case scenario is that you are supporting an authoritarian communist regime that actively looks away from child labor, slave labor, that actively enslaves or disappears Uyghur Muslims effectively manipulating global markets by using these atrocities to give their companies a competitive advantage to destroy other automakers from around the world. Don’t get me wrong—I own stuff that is made in China—I am not denying a certain level of hypocrisy. I don’t feel good about those items. However, a vehicle is one of the biggest and most expensive purchases that one makes (you rely on them for the safety of you, your family, your friends)—and perpetuating this Ponzi scheme that is designed to destroy automakers that actually have to make an attempt to play by safety regulations and labor conditions.

 

[fatness]

If you purchase a Chinese EV , the best case scenario is that you are supporting an authoritarian communist regime that actively looks away from child labor, slave labor, that actively enslaves or disappears Uyghur Muslims effectively manipulating global markets by using these atrocities to give their companies a competitive advantage to destroy other automakers from around the world.

Sir, this is an Arby's.

 

[Chaos34]

I’m not sure why you would categorize them as “hit pieces”.

I explained.

Europe's safety standards are more stringent than ours and Chinese EVs pass them with flying colors. This is the reason I called it a hit piece

I really don't want to get into this, but I'm too dumb to stop myself. Your source, China Observer, is notorious for anti-CCP bias.
From the link:

I consider this channel to be the equivalent of Fox News. It kind of traffics in horrors about China, but it seems too biased against China. Most of the time, the voiceover translations don't match what the people interviewed are actually saying.

I noticed the voice over thing in your vids. The channel is owned by Falun Gong, an extremist spiritual organization that hates the Chinese government. They have a few similar channels and all of them sort of leverage how little us english speakers know about China. I'm not one to defend the CCP, but I can't stand misinformation regardless of who it targets. I deferred to several of the points in the vids, just not all the drama about the safety of the vehicles. It's a hit piece. It's what that channel is known for. China is making some derned good EVs.

Regarding the lawsuit in Brazil. Unmentioned is BYD had nothing to do with the bad labor practices. Their factory was being built by Jinjian Construction. They contracted the company that didn't obey Brazil's labor laws. Brazil sensationalized it, IMO, by calling it slave-like conditions. 200 of them were sleeping in large rooms, some on cots, some with bedding on the floor. The were being fed 3 meals a day, but not bussing their tables and rotting food was found causing Brazil to add that to the sanitary conditions. They had plenty of porta-potties but only one full bathroom with showers per 30 workers. They were not being paid for overtime. Sounds awful. Sounds like China. But it's complicated. Several of the workers said they loved the job. One said he cherished it. Life is hard in some places and work is work. Jinjian may have coerced thos comments, maybe not. I have read plenty about Chinese workers happy to have employment in bad situations. Brazil repatriated all 200 of them after the "happy worker" videos posted.

The hit pieces act like all the bad is pure fact and you follow along. It sounds like a complicated case. It hasn't been tried. It may be in the courts for years though Jinjian may settle. Let's be real, they violated Brazilian labor laws. It's their MO.

The factory is finished. Half the employees were replaced by Brazilians and the half new Chinese workers. The first cars rolled out a few days ago. BYD is in good standing in Brazil and one of the hottest selling brands.

As to the phantom sales and new car graveyards, yup, I deferred to that story just pushed back on the environmental drama from the hit pieces. Over 400 EV startups did the phantom sales thing, produced nonsense garbage cars and eventually got busted. China has be altering that subsidy since 2015 and ended it in 22. The hit pieces don't mention that, but they go after BYD. It's over. The graveyards are being dealt with.

 

[The Z Machine]

Yup. I didn't want to reply to jvd's hit pieces above but China is making great cars for the money and every manufacturer knows it.

I'd like to know what was wrong in the hit piece, because there are a lot of outlets out there reporting that they aren't paying their bills, are not profitable, and are in real trouble.

The same people who sounded the alarm on Evergrande are warning about BYD

Sure, and from the top of my head after fact checking those vids a week ago. The financial problems are real, so your concern is valid. Somn somn about BYD agreeing to pay suppliers after the vehicle sells. Unfortunately for them (and other Chinese ev makers are worse off) they vastly over-produced low range evs that didn't sell (up to 2022). Didn't sell, didn't pay suppliers - big mess.

The dramatic take on the environmental disaster is what it is. They didn't just over-produce, they did game the subsidy deal exactly as described, and those lots full of new cars are real but probably exaggerated in scope and environmental disaster. The disaster was building too many not storing them, and they are heavily parted out, batteries deployed in robotic factories, high end interior materials repurposed, etc. The steel is almost 100% recyclable but that's down the road. A benefit is practically giving away undesirable but functioning vehicles for "scrap" prices to an ever more mobile Chinese society. I think I read 13k per anum is the current average salary so cheap cars are helpful when possible.

The subsidy in question was quashed over three years ago, but the video makes it sound like it is ongoing, relentlessly really. Gaming the PRC with fraud for subsidies isn't a good idea. China had a competition subsidizing 12 companies to create the best EVs possible. Post 2022 the manufacturers focused on long range evs with high tech features. Some of these companies will fail, and those still standing will be making some of the best cars out there dollar for dollar.

They're making some really interesting even outstanding vehicles that outsell Tesla in many European markets and elsewhere. Europe's safety standards are more stringent than ours and Chinese EVs pass them with flying colors. This is the reason I called it a hit piece. There's been fires. They're hard to extinguish. A boat sunk loaded with Chinese EVs after just one caught fire. 800 cars went to the bottom of the ocean. That skewed the stats. Ice vehicles catch fire far more often than EVs. Chinese EVs catch fire as frequently as Teslas, no more no less - all EVs have fires far less, far less than ICE vehicles. So all the fire drama in the videos is the "hit piece" portion. I could go on, but this is long. Most major auto brands outside of China are scrambling to get into China because of the tech and innovation. Geely owns Volvo. Are Volvos now unsafe? No, not at all.

I don't really care if some company in China scammed subs or is going under. They are throwing everything at this tech, both good and bad. Some of it will bleed over. Hopefully the good stuff.

Really good point.

Those Instagram guys that show the new Chinese EVs are great. Some of these models look 5 years ahead of US models

Yup. I rode in one of those. I think a Denza D9. The interior was superb. Full massage captains chairs in the second row. Quiet and comfy ride. Super luxurious.

Rode in a number of BYD cabs / ubers. Great rides, awesome interior and didn't feel chintzy at all. That's when I knew I needed to buy stock in BYD, since they are crushing it in every place they are allowed to sell.

 

[massraider]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DLp2A1jpQEW/?igsh=aDJkYXh3OHl6d2p6

This is my guy for Chinese car influencers.
He really showcases some impressive production vehicles.

Also has the most pleasant to the ear accented English you'll ever hear. I know, sounds weird, but check him out, you'll see what I mean.

 

[massraider]

As to the phantom sales and new car graveyards, yup, I deferred to that story just pushed back on the environmental drama from the hit pieces. Over 400 EV startups did the phantom sales thing, produced nonsense garbage cars and eventually got busted. China has be altering that subsidy since 2015 and ended it in 22. The hit pieces don't mention that, but they go after BYD. It's over. The graveyards are being dealt with

I'm thinking more about them owing suppliers 9 months out, and not being able to sell enough cars at sticker.
There isn't just some Falun Gong wingnuts.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Tesla Is Cooked. And It's All Xiaomi’s Fault​

https://insideevs.com/reviews/764315/xiaomi-yu7-first-drive-china/?utm_source=Klaviyo&utm_medium=email&_kx=9KTXcCDYq2MTGVmRyXwCMjzsnLzQ7JbF9ywFQ_9jyiE.VCGm8F

Yup. I didn't want to reply to jvd's hit pieces above but China is making great cars for the money and every manufacturer knows it. Ford CEO imported the SU7 and didn't want to give it up. It's only allowed here for 6 months, I think. Anyway, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volvo, the Koreans, Ford, etc etc., all are leveraging advanced Chinese auto tech and opening joint projects in China.

The BYD Shark is the best ev truck on the market dollar for dollar. Priced less than a Lightning, close to a Rivian in quality and features. I would have purchased a Chinese MPV by now if I could. They're pretty amazing for the money and I'd still like a mini-van, just nothing available here. They are all over Tijuana.

I’m not sure why you would categorize them as “hit pieces”. The gentleman that put out the first piece has worked for several technology companies in China for over a decade and is aware of the business practices that go on there. The fact that there are fields of over-produced low quality cars sitting all across the country is a fact. The dynamic that they made those vehicles not only to take advantage of subsidies—but to create fraudulent sales data as a means of getting more and more investment both foreign and domestic is also true. Manufacturing in China is not done in an environmentally friendly way under any circumstance—-that is just a fact. There is a reason why a lot of companies from around the world go there—and it’s not just because of cheap slave labor. It’s also because of far more relaxed regulations when it comes to the environmental stuff. The economics of BYD and a lot of the other Chinese EV companies is not a “hit piece”—-thats data—and the data from China tends to underestimate concerns (not overestimate them). A lot of suppliers of parts for these vehicles are not getting paid and will slowly go under—which will make long term maintenance and availability of parts very questionable. The fact that Brazil sued BYD for putting workers in its factory in slave-like conditions is not a “hit-piece”—its real data. If the conditions were so bad in Brazil that they took action—how do you think the conditions are for the workers in mainland China—where nobody will take action for them? I understand that a lot of you love the idea of vehicles that look good, that seem solid on paper, for a price that is a fraction of the competition to just exist magically and without any negative consequences—but that is just not reality. If something seems too good to be true—-there is almost always a reason. Let’s just say that I’m happy to sit back and wait for 5-7 years and see how these Chinese EV’s treat their buyers over time. My prediction is that they will end up being almost disposable.

If you purchase a Chinese EV , the best case scenario is that you are supporting an authoritarian communist regime that actively looks away from child labor, slave labor, that actively enslaves or disappears Uyghur Muslims effectively manipulating global markets by using these atrocities to give their companies a competitive advantage to destroy other automakers from around the world. Don’t get me wrong—I own stuff that is made in China—I am not denying a certain level of hypocrisy. I don’t feel good about those items. However, a vehicle is one of the biggest and most expensive purchases that one makes (you rely on them for the safety of you, your family, your friends)—and perpetuating this Ponzi scheme that is designed to destroy automakers that actually have to make an attempt to play by safety regulations and labor conditions.

Are we sure this is the extent of our hypocrisy? I mean, if we're comparing them to the largest US EV manufacturer, it might be less apples and oranges and more gala apples and cosmic crisp apples.

 

[Chaos34]

As to the phantom sales and new car graveyards, yup, I deferred to that story just pushed back on the environmental drama from the hit pieces. Over 400 EV startups did the phantom sales thing, produced nonsense garbage cars and eventually got busted. China has be altering that subsidy since 2015 and ended it in 22. The hit pieces don't mention that, but they go after BYD. It's over. The graveyards are being dealt with

I'm thinking more about them owing suppliers 9 months out, and not being able to sell enough cars at sticker.
There isn't just some Falun Gong wingnuts.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

I subscribed, thanks. She is interesting. I want to go back and watch her China politics stuff.

@jvdesigns2002 That video does more to defend your side of this than mine and it's presented without the drama. I hope we can leave it at that. China's EV project is interesting to say the least.

massraider, the AI I've been discussing this with "thinks" BYD survives and thrives down the road, but these are very precarious times. It's a race to keep losses manageable while covering the early infrastructure and R&D costs associated with starting the company. Falling battery costs and ongoing govt incentives "should" keep them above water. BYD is building greater economies of scale in an era of fierce competition, and if it survives this period while many fail, it should emerge as a global powerhouse.

Anyway, I'm done with this particular vein of the thread. Last word is yours if you want it jvd.

 

[BassNBrew]

New YorkCNN —
Despite Elon Musk’s bold predictions, the Cybertruck is, officially, a flop.

Tesla is deliberately opaque about its sales numbers on specific models, so you have to squint to get a sense of just how badly the company’s unique pickup truck is performing in the real world.

But we definitely have some idea.



Here’s what we know, based on Tesla’s deliveries (a proxy for sales) released this week: The EV maker delivered about 384,000 vehicles in total, world-wide, between April and June this year — a record 13.5% decline from a year earlier.

Zoom in, and it gets uglier for Tesla.

Tesla doesn’t break out sales of the Cybertruck, one of its premium models that Musk says was inspired by the dystopian movie “Blade Runner.” It discloses just two categories — the Model 3 and Y in one category and, in the second, “other models,” which is almost entirely the company’s legacy Model S sedan, the Model X SUV and the Cybertruck.

The company said it delivered about 10,400 “other” models in the second quarter, which itself is a huge problem for Tesla. In the same quarter last year, Tesla sold more than 21,500 “other” models. It’s hard to think of another word for a 52% decline other than a collapse.



How many of those “others” are Cybertrucks, and how many are the Model S or X? That’s not entirely clear.


But let’s look at the first three months of this year. Tesla sold about 12,900 “other” models, of which 7,100 were Cybertrucks, according to registration data from S&P Global Mobility. So a bit more than half.

It’d be safe to estimate, then, that Tesla likely sold something in the ballpark of 5,000-6,000 Cybertrucks in the second quarter if consumer trends held steady. It might even be getting marginally outsold by the F-150 Lightning and GM’s electric pickups, rivals whose sales are also falling but weren’t nearly as hyped as Musk’s brainchild.

The company didn’t respond to a request for comment.

But even in a hypothetical world where all of those 10,400 deliveries in the second quarter were Cybertrucks, Tesla would still be massively underperforming the expectations set by Musk, who told investors two years ago that he expected Tesla to be churning out 250,000 a year by 2025.

We’re halfway through the year, and Tesla has barely hit a fraction of that.

Cybertruck sales have faced a number of challenges:

• Its $80,000-$100,000 price tag.
• The imminent erasure of EV tax credits.
• Its oddball design.
• Repeated recalls, including one for an exterior steel panel falling off while the truck is moving.
• The roughly 200-mile real-world range reported by owners, rather than the 500-mile range that was initially promised.
• The lack of the initially-promised range extender, which quietly disappeared.
• The vehicle’s intractable affiliation with the world’s wealthiest wannabe-oligarch.
• The 7,000-pound car has become a symbol of the MAGA right wing and a target of vandalism.

Will the Cybertruck’s shortcomings sink Tesla? Probably not. But the stumble has become a reflection of the company’s broader turmoil.

The electric truck faces serious competition from the likes of Rivian, Ford and GM. Chinese rivals are eating into Tesla’s market share in key markets overseas, particularly Europe and China.

Tesla is on the verge of losing its title as the world’s largest EV maker by annual sales to Chinese automaker BYD. This week, BYD — which isn’t allowed in the US market — reported 1 million electric vehicles sold in the first half of this year, putting it far ahead of Tesla’s year-to-date total of about 721,000.


The Tesla faithful on Wall Street are still all-in on Musk, whom they see as a visionary and, perhaps more to the point, a showman who has made them rich.

Tesla’s stock (TSLA) is down about 17% this year, but it’s up nearly 300% over the last five years. For the ride-or-die bulls, it may not matter that Musk’s MAGA turn has clobbered the company’s core business of selling cars because he has convinced them that Tesla’s future lies in an AI-powered, driverless utopia.

And it’s Musk’s history of promises that have driven that meteoric share price increase, and, accordingly, Musk’s personal wealth.

But Musk’s promises and predictions routinely come up short. His Cybertruck is only the latest example.