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Eli Manning to suck in the NFL (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Mr. Pickles
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allfaulkedup
Footballguy
Emm strange seeing how I would think most people would say his sophmore year was his most impressive (only year he had a running game).. Little tired of all the bull#### about Eli in college so here ya go... —PASSING—Year G-S Cmp-Att Pct. Yds TD INT LP Avg/G Effic.2000 6-0 16-33 .485 170 0 1 26 28.3 85.72001 11-11 259-408 .635 2948 31 9 56 268.0 144.82002 13-13 279-481 .580 3401 21 15 79 261.6 125.62003 12-12 253-410 .617 3341 27 9 59 278.4 147.5Total 42-36 807-1332 .606 9860 79 34 79 234.8 137.23Year Att Comp % Yds TD INT Long1994 144 89 61.8% 1,141 11 6 761995 380 244 64.2% 2,954 22 4 801996 380 243 63.9% 3,287 20 12 801997 477 287 60.2% 3,819 36 11 73total 1,381 863 62.5% 11,201 89 33 80Hope this sets the record straight for all the naysayers about ELi in college, face it he was impressive, he did have THAT GREAT of a career and NO you did not really watch the Ole Miss Rebels for 4 years PLEASE they are not on TV regionally all that much trust me the TIDE TIGERS and GATORS dominant the coverage this far south. Eli has faced pressure his entire life being the son of an NFL quaterback would be tough expectations to live up too, but being Peyton's younger brother would be even worse. Eli has much more natural talent than Peyton does. He has broken EVERY record that Peyton set in High school and came DAMN close in college playing for a Horrible Ole Miss Team (he was one play away from being in the SEC championship game when his center stepped on his foot vs LSU). When he went to Ole Miss he went there as a Savior walked right into the Lion's mouth that his brother Peyton avioded by playing for the very team his dad lead to their only national title, now thats souding off like ya got a pair if you ask me. I did not like the "stunt" he pulled with San Diego but if given the choice would YOU want to go there and play?? Don't be pissed at Eli just becuase unlike other QB's in college he could afford to influence where he played in the NFL. I have said it once on these boards before Eli is a better physically gifted athlete than his brother but he does not take the "job" as serious and that may be his achilles heal. If he follows his brother's and dad's influence/advice and totally commits to film study like his brother he will be a top tier FF quaterback for years to come, if he goofs like us youngest brothers tend to do well then he will be mediocre at best. Two more points and then I will take me replies "off the air" It doe not make a flips difference in the world who is coaching Eli at the QB position because how are you going to screw up Eli??? His brother is Peyton his Dad is ARCHIE for Crissakes he has been coached up his entire life He already knows whats right or wrong. Finally if there is better rookie QB ready to handle the pressures of being in NY trot out his name becasue I for one would like to hear it and your reasoning behind it.
there were more media members covering his first minicamp practice then there are in the entire state of Mississippi. Everybody loved him down there...he won't get nearly as much slack up in New York after they gave up so much to get him.
Koya
Footballguy
1. the OL is not terrible. It will be average, with a chance to be a bit below average and a slight (slight) chance to be a little better than average. The OL had injuries last year and guys were starting that shouldnt even have been on a roster. The Giants traded for depth, get back some health and have a very mean rookie in Snee. No one who follows the Giants closely thinks the OL will be nearly as bad as it was last year.2. So what? Let them revolt and get cut. Eli's time to shine will be in three years so its time to get the right players around him and start building the FOUNDATION for a franchise. Even so, the players will fall in line and those that do not will one way or another be shown the door.
3. Mediocre? I must not be looking at the same receiving core as you. When you add tiki to the mix of Toomer, Shockey and Hilliard you have some very very good receivers.
4. Defenses you have a point.
5. Who knows, but it is unlikely. I hate Dayne.
6. How did they mortgage 'the future' - they wanted to keep this years 2nd rounder to get an OL and to do that the Giants decided to give up next years first. That is far from a mortgage.
So many just follow public opinion on the Eli thing... if you look at the situation objectively and dont follow the lead like lemmings you would recognize the OL is NOT nearly as bad as last year, that Eli is NOT NEARLY the "bad guy" all the envy freaks make him out to be and that there is a very very good chance for success in the League for Eli.
You compare him to Peyton , who, as it was pointed out, many thought was the 2nd best QB in that draft behind leaf - did Eli have Travis Henry and Dante Stallworth? Or a MASSIVE O-Line? Or a tradition of winning and winning programs?
No. No to all of that.
All Eli did was ELEVATE AND ENTIRE PROGRAM with little around him for the most part and people say that was not an impressive body of work.
What is not impressive is the sad sack Eli bashing on this board - he's a good kid. He was willing to put his wallet where his mouth was (San Diego acted at LEAST as poorly and probably more so than did the Mannings) and he has a very solid resume in his own right ... all the more impressive knowing his genetics and upbringing.
Give it up people - he was #1 overall for a reason. He was projected as top 5 overall a year ago for a reason.
But its ok, he is the boards whipping boy. Jump off the cliff lemmings. Jump.
Koya
Footballguy
Great post faulkedup. And thanks for backing up my opinions and observations with acutal facts... as for come up with better reasoning for someone else being the best QB?Hmmm... FBG Shark Pool Mob Mentality + Bitterness that we are typing at desk jobs while Eli is playing football for a living = Envy Bashing.
I still thought his junior year was very unimpressive for a guy with his pedigree, background, and talent.I'm not trying to bag on the dude...I don't really care about the whole San Diego thing, and I don't have anything against him personally.As I've said before, he'll likely do fine...I just don't think he's a LOCK as some people believe. I think he'll be slower to develop than many expect.Brothers don't always turn out alike. In sports, examples of one brother failing while one brother succeeds are plentiful.How many times have 2 brothers both been superstars?
allfaulkedup
Footballguy
Found it funny that you used Eli's own quote against him....It was Joke.
there's a hint of truth to every joke
jacklejack
Footballguy
Mr. Pickle or several NFL staffs? I think I'll go with the NFL scouts. He will succeed but I can't say I like what he did. So, I'm not pulling for him.
allfaulkedup
Footballguy
You are right they are not alike Eli has better physical tools, Peyton has a better work ethic and therefore a better understanding of the game (one of the best in the NFL IMO).I can't name two brothers that have both been "superstars" but then again I cannot name two brothers that have as much talent as the Mannings do. Ironic that the only brothers I know in the NFL are Tiki and Ronde and while they are not superstars both are studs and have played in the Superbowl, Ronde is a Pro-bowler and Tiki has been snubbed twice, an alternate once (2002 was ridiculous) and I would say most FF players would be happy to have either one on a team. Tiki especially if you get rec. points . Other than that close as I can think of was the two brothers who won a NCAA title at UCLA together (how cool would that be) but then none of those guys are anywhere near near the talents in their respective sports as Peyton/Eli are judged to be. Can you name me two brothers who both went first in their respective drafts for ANY sport???BTW there is an older brother but he got zero skills from the gene pool so maybe it was left full enough for both Peyton and Eli.
As to whether or not Eli is a "lock" to succeed...
Since 1965, there have been 15 quarterbacks drafted at #1 overall:
1965 - Joe Namath (Jets)
1970 - Terry Bradshaw (Steelers)
1971 - Jim Plunkett (Patriots)
1975 - Steve Bartkowski (Falcons)
1983 - John Elway (Colts)
1987 - Vinny Testaverde (Buccaneers)
1989 - Troy Aikman (Cowboys)
1990 - Jeff George (Colts)
1993 - Drew Bledsoe (Patriots)
1998 - Peyton Manning (Colts)
1999 - Tim Couch (Browns)
2001 - Michael Vick (Falcons)
2002 - David Carr (Texans)
2003 - Carson Palmer (Bengals)
2004 - Eli Manning (Chargers)
10 of the 15 have thrown for over 20,000 career yards. The only exceptions are Couch, Vick, Carr, Palmer, and E. Manning, who are all still active. Three are in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, with Aikman a good candidate to become the fourth. The 15 players have combined for 6 Super Bowl MVP awards, while winning 12 of the 38 Super Bowls. Even Jeff George, who many in this thread seem to believe was a huge flop, played in 133 games over his 11 seasons in the NFL, and ranks 37th in NFL history in passing yards. In 1997 he led the league in passing yards & finished 2nd in passing TDs.
I can accept the argument that no player is a lock to be a star in the NFL, I suppose, but it sure looks to me like Eli comes as close as you can get.
Since 1965, there have been 15 quarterbacks drafted at #1 overall:
1965 - Joe Namath (Jets)
1970 - Terry Bradshaw (Steelers)
1971 - Jim Plunkett (Patriots)
1975 - Steve Bartkowski (Falcons)
1983 - John Elway (Colts)
1987 - Vinny Testaverde (Buccaneers)
1989 - Troy Aikman (Cowboys)
1990 - Jeff George (Colts)
1993 - Drew Bledsoe (Patriots)
1998 - Peyton Manning (Colts)
1999 - Tim Couch (Browns)
2001 - Michael Vick (Falcons)
2002 - David Carr (Texans)
2003 - Carson Palmer (Bengals)
2004 - Eli Manning (Chargers)
10 of the 15 have thrown for over 20,000 career yards. The only exceptions are Couch, Vick, Carr, Palmer, and E. Manning, who are all still active. Three are in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, with Aikman a good candidate to become the fourth. The 15 players have combined for 6 Super Bowl MVP awards, while winning 12 of the 38 Super Bowls. Even Jeff George, who many in this thread seem to believe was a huge flop, played in 133 games over his 11 seasons in the NFL, and ranks 37th in NFL history in passing yards. In 1997 he led the league in passing yards & finished 2nd in passing TDs.
I can accept the argument that no player is a lock to be a star in the NFL, I suppose, but it sure looks to me like Eli comes as close as you can get.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Toomer and Ike are better than Kennison and Morton, but I think most would be pleased with Trent Green type stats for Eli. Compare one of the best offenses in football to the Giants.RB: Priest to Tiki, no comparison really, but Tiki is a decent receiver.TE: Gonzo to Shockey, I call it a toss up.WR: Toomer and Ike to Kennison and Morton - BIG advantage to the Giants.OL: Giants get crushed here, but they can fix that.Bottom line: you cannot just look at the WRs when evaluating a QB's weapons.I don't consider Eli a Lock, but he is probably the 2nd closest thing to a "sure prospect" in this year's FF draft - only Winslow is safer IMO.
true, these two are unique in that they both had college success, went #1 overall in the draft, and their father is a hall of famer. tough to argue with their chances of success...but there are several roadblocks present for him that could make it harder for him to succeed than it was for Peyton.I remember hearing plenty of stories about younger brothers or kids of superstars that never amount to anything. It seems like the brother or the kid rarely live up to the hype accompanying them. I think Bill Parcells once said that Drew Bledsoe's brother was better than him. Where is Adam Bledsoe these days? I thought I remember hearing about Shaq having a younger brother that was going to come along and dominate, but don't recall ever hearing that again. Carson Palmer's brother can't even hold onto the starting QB job at UTEP. I'm sure there are plenty others if I really wanted to look into it.All I'm saying is that being a Manning doesn't guarantee that Eli will have success. It is definitely reassuring, but you have to evaluate each player and each situation separately. The Giants players are a veteran group, and they don't seem all that thrilled with rebuilding around a young QB who dictated which team he wanted to play for. I also think that giving up the #1 pick (potential top-10 selection, if not top 5) next year is very risky unless the Giants perform better than expected.Anyway, I'm taking a wait and see approach. I just think Eli has made things a lot harder for himself than it needed to be and I don't think New York (or San Diego) will be great situations for him compared to what Peyton experienced in Indy. Would Peyton be the same player if he came into San Diego or New York under these circumstances? Hard to say.
allfaulkedup
Footballguy
Dead on about all the stories dealing with "superstar' players and their brothers (sons) etc... in fact I can give you another prime example from the south. Steve McNair has an older brother and fact is his older brother was a better Qb in High School no doubt about it bar none Fred was better WAY better, played against both of them and even Steve has rather candidly said so. But I don't think any of them or their stories apply to this situation; both have and do succeed like superstars. Just because there has never been two superstar brothers in the NFL before does not mean it cannot be done, no two brothers were ever picked number one before Eli and Peyton either. BTW what exactly makes a player a superstar, I believe that Ronde and Tiki come close how about Kellen Winslow Sr and Jr ya know that Aaron Brooks and Mike Vick are cousins for just about every superstar's kid/brother/cousin/sisters roommate’s boyfriend flop I would think there is a success. My point is though that yes being a Manning does not guarantee Eli to be a success but it does Help not hinder him. He has been groomed to be an NFL quarterback his entire life coached up from the days he played pee-wee. The Giants are a proud franchise that saw an opportunity to grab/steal the number one overall pick and they did just that. Big deal about next year's number one they where probably going to take a QB anyways and with Eli they get the ONE person that has been groomed his whole life to be an NFL QB. He may be walking into a difficult situation but once again if you know of someone better prepared to do just that then name him.To answer the question how good will Eli be this year I don't know rookie qbs in general suck the only exception though was his brother and still those ints sure hurt if that was factored into your scoring system; but if you pass on Eli in a Dynasty league I can pretty much GAR- RON- TEE that you will be sorry unless you have a young stud at the position already. The way the Giant’s Org. conducts itself and its past proven track record I believe that Eli will find himself surrounded rather quickly by all the weapons he needs to succeed. He has got a great starting group already one that is only 4 years removed from a superbowl least we forget.Will Eli be the perennially pro-bowler his brother is I don't know, does he have all the physical tools to do so yes, does he have as good or better shot as the other Qbs drafted this year or hell any year yes. I am personally waiting to start hearing stories about Eli living in the film year and mastering the playbook before I decide either way about the pro bowl stuff but like I said before it is his Achilles heel. However if gets his preparation down like his brother does than I would be inclined to say that he will be a pro-bowler but then again I think we can all say that about any other qb with the same set of skills.Edited for some typos..They kinda bother me
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Here was one possible scenario the Giants could have taken:Giants are at #4. Trade down with the Browns at #7 and add their 2nd round pick (the Browns gave up the 2nd to move up 1 spot for Winslow, which means they would have definitely given it up to move up 3 spots, if not more).At #7, take Ben Roethlisberger.Then, in round 2 take Chris Snee and Jacob Rogers.They also keep their 3rd, which they could have used on a DT like Randy Starks or possibly a WR like Derrick Hamilton.Keep Kerry Collins around for 1 more year and still look forward to a 1st round pick next year.So, Eli Manning potentially cost them: 2 1sts, a 2nd, a 3rd, and a 5th, plus it apparently made Kerry Collins unwilling to restructure and stick around...perhaps he would have stayed if Roethlisberger was the guy at #7.That's a huge price to pay for a guy who I don't think is that much better than Roethlisberger or Rivers or even Losman. The MAIN thing I see that separates Manning from some of these other QBs is his last name. I don't think the potential upgrade from Roethlisberger to Manning is worth giving up a 2nd, 3rd, and next year's first (which will very likely be improved as a direct result of making this deal). With the way the Redskins are loading up, the Eagles going to 3 straight NFC Championship games, and Parcells building a strong team in Dallas...I think the Giants would have been better off planning for the future rather than putting all their hopes on the shoulders of one kid.As I said, that's a lot for anyone to live up to. I'm seriously not so sure Peyton could have lived up to it either.Nothing I've said is necessarily a knock on Eli...but rather a comment on his situation. I just think it will be tough for anyone to succeed there, but I could very well be wrong.BTW, Tiki and Ronde are identical twins...I'm less surprised by them both having success as they share the exact same genes. Darren and Jamie Sharper are a good examples of two brothers that are both stars. Keyshawn and Chad Johnson are cousins. It is absolutely possible, even likely, that Manning will be very good. I'm just looking forward to watching it all play out, and I don't plan on rooting one way or the other. GB him if he succeeds in Manhattan. He'll be a rock star.
I'm pretty sure Matt and Aaron are brothers and Bo is a cousin...but I wouldn't call any one of them a superstar.
bueno
In a class by himself
Come on Jayhawk! I gave you 6 reasons why the Giants will suck.If you still want to argue receivers,Green threw for 4252 yards and 25 tds last year.Collins threw for 3642 yards and 16 TDs.Of those yards, Priest had 722 yards and no tdsTiki had 461 yards and 1 TDMeaning the receivers for the Giants managed 3181 yards and 15 tdsWhile the receivers for the Chiefs managed 3530 yards and 25 tds.If the Chiefs receivers are bad, the Giants receivers are worse.See sig line.
RAIDERNATION.
Footballguy
When Eli drools on Giants C Shaun O'Hara, will that be considered a false start?
Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
Do you still like Ryan Leaf to pull it out as an NFL QB?
You might want to find a new stats provider.In reality, Green threw for 4,039 yards & 24 touchdowns last year. Of those, Priest had 690 yards & no TDs receiving. However, the other running backs combined for another 278 yards & 1 TD through the air. That leaves a total of 3,071 yards & 23 TDs to the receivers. Now, TE Tony Gonzalez claimed 915 of those yards & 10 of those TDs, so we're down to 2,156 yards & 13 TDs. Another TE, Jason Dunn, had 35 yards & 3 more TDs through the air. 2,121 yards & 10 TDs left.In all, Chiefs wide receivers caught 157 passes for 2,175 yards & 10 TDs (the numbers vary a bit from above because Todd Collins did see some action). The Chiefs' leading wide receiver was Eddie Kennison (the guy that the Rams, Saints, Bears & Broncos all let go), who posted a monster season with 56 catches for 854 yards & 5 TDs. Not exactly a Hall of Fame candidate.The Giants, on the other hand, had two wide recievers (Toomer & Hilliard) who each caught more than 56 passes last season. Toomer went over a thousand yards. Hilliard & Toomer combined for 11 touchdowns, more than the entire Chiefs' stable of wideouts. I don't understand how on earth you can argue, even as a side issue, that the Giants WRs are worse than KCs??Keep in mind that Jeremy Shockey only played in 9 games last year (and Collins in only 13, totalling 3,110 yards & 13 TDs through the air). The Giants running backs behind Barber did not do a whole lot through the air, either. In fact, looking just at wide receivers...Kansas City: 157-2175-10New York: 172-2220-11The real difference maker in your "receivers" comparison was Tony Gonzalez, who chipped in 71 catches for 915 yards & 10 TDs. Pro-rate Shockey's production over an entire 16 game season and you end up with 85 receptions for 951 yards & 4 TDs. Big disparity in TDs which is more indicative of the style of offense the two teams employ vs. talent at TE or QB, but the receptions & yardage both tip in favor of the Giants.I'll agree that the Chiefs, as a team, will probably do better than the Giants this season, both because of the turnovers inherent with starting a rookie QB and because of the locker room problems already showing up in NY. But to argue, even for an instant, that Kennison, Morton, and Gonzalez are better than Toomer, Hilliard, and Shockey...that's plain goofy.
-OZ-
Footballguy
I like it - In fantasy football the past is not the key to the present!!
You don't think that perhaps, a difference is that Green is a better QB now do you? Perhaps that's why the Giants went with Eli instead of Roy Williams?I have no problem with you saying the Giants offense needs work and I said the O-line and RB could be better, but to lay it out as the "WRs suck" is a little short sighted.Seriously, given the same other 8 players on the offense, who would you prefer:Toomer (1057 yards), Hilliard (608) and Shockey (535 in 11 games)orKennison (853 yards), Morton (740), and Gonzalez (916)?But then, I readily admit, I just get frustrated watching Eddie and Johnny drop easy catches.allfaulkedup
Footballguy
Hindsight being what is, I bet we could put together a draft scenario giving them fitzgerald, vernon carey, will smith and Losman/Roths/rivers so I really dont see how thats pertinent.I undertand you are not high on Manning but in another topic I read you believe that Losman will be very good in 2006, why?? And HEY look what the Bills gave up to get him third and fifth this year and a one next year? Sheese wonder what kinda draft we could put together for the Bills??Now according to you Losman and Eli are not that different, as the main thing that seperates them is the Manning last name. Well I have got to call ya out here Losman played all of 2 hours away from me saw him plenty and while he is talented he is not as talented as Manning the two are close but when Losman was giving the chance to shine here in mobile at the senior bowl he did not, he actually kinda folded under the media glare when given his big shot. In fact Rivers was the big star here and the main reason the chargers were happy to get Rivers was becuase rivers performed so much better than anyone else here did, including Losman, during the practices, the most important part of seniorbowl. Rivers was the MVP of the game too check their lines for that game sheese Losman looked horrible. Losman is a good talent but plays with a chip on his shoulder. ie always wanting to show that he is as good as the rest of "those" big college guys. Sometimes it helps him sometimes it hurts him. Losman is the one that will really need all the coaching up.To compare the two Losman does not read defenses half as well as Eli does now, is erratic easily spooked out of the pocket and well if he cannot be coached up then he will definitely be a big bust perhaps as big as Eli. Bills gave up just about the same to get him, but believe me everyone down here is really pulling for both of them to succeed. I do like his situation though cannot argue that hanging out on the bench away from the spotlight is just what Losman needs cool his heels so to speak really learn to play the game believe me there are some catholic High schools in N.O. that could beat the Green Wave and thats with Losman.BTW Losman does not really have a ego problem he reminds most locals of how Brett Farve was real cocky and headstrong playing at USM course Brett lost about 15 feet of his intestines and that knocked his head straight doubt thats going to happen to Losman. Not to mention the coaching job Brett had Green Bay. Thanks for proving my point about brothers and family in sports but my Favs have got to be the FLYING VON ERIKSEdited for some obvious typos and thisI have yet to hear you or anybody name one person who has a better shot of making it in NY then Eli does.
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bueno
In a class by himself
Before we give Eli kudos for elevating an entire program, (I did manage to catch a few Ole Miss games) ket's not forget that as a sophomore he played with some kid named Deuce!I have to tell you, that year I turned on the Ole Miss games (ESPN2) to watch the RB position, not the QB position. Eli has professional grade physical skills, but saying that he elevated an entire program ignores the (IMO) more substantial contribution that Deuce McAllister made toward elevating that program.
bueno
In a class by himself
Jayhawk, if you can't remember that I gave six reasons why Eli is set up for failure, then you need to review the posts again. I never laid the blame solely on the WRs - it was one of six reasons why.
I'll repeat them for you, with some embellishment:
1. He has a terrible OL. (Can't throw lying on your back or running for your life.)
2. The players will revolt against the coach. (Look what happen in Oakland when this happened.)
3. His receivers are pretty mediocre. (Not much better than KC at the WR spots.)
4. He plays in a division loaded with great defenses. (I believe the 30 ints, but maybe half that many tds!)
5. The coach actually thinks he can have a running game with Dayne.
6. The team mortgaged the future just to get him. (When you draft as strangely as the Giants do, you need all the picks you can get anyway. Maybe it wasn't a Hershel Walker or Ricky Williams type trade, but they overpaid.)
As for the Kansas City Comparison, if we look at just the top 3 WRs,
KC:
Kennison: 853/5
Morton 740/4
Hall 423/1
Total: 2016/10
Giants:
Toomer: 1057/5
Hilliard 608/6
Carter 309/0
Total: 1974/11
The Chiefs top 3 WRs out-performed the Giants top 3 by a mere 42 yards. I'd say production from the wide receiver corps for the Giants as a whole is even worse, as there isn't much after Carter and I didn't consider Boerigter's paltry 158 yards in the equation for KC. If the Chiefs WRs suck (leave the TE and RB out of it - that wasn't my argument), then the Giants WRs are at best mediocre (the word I used). The numbers (from ESPN.com) tell the story.
I don't hate the kid and I don't think he's going to be just like his brother either. I just think he is set up to fail with the Giants.
I'll repeat them for you, with some embellishment:
1. He has a terrible OL. (Can't throw lying on your back or running for your life.)
2. The players will revolt against the coach. (Look what happen in Oakland when this happened.)
3. His receivers are pretty mediocre. (Not much better than KC at the WR spots.)
4. He plays in a division loaded with great defenses. (I believe the 30 ints, but maybe half that many tds!)
5. The coach actually thinks he can have a running game with Dayne.
6. The team mortgaged the future just to get him. (When you draft as strangely as the Giants do, you need all the picks you can get anyway. Maybe it wasn't a Hershel Walker or Ricky Williams type trade, but they overpaid.)
As for the Kansas City Comparison, if we look at just the top 3 WRs,
KC:
Kennison: 853/5
Morton 740/4
Hall 423/1
Total: 2016/10
Giants:
Toomer: 1057/5
Hilliard 608/6
Carter 309/0
Total: 1974/11
The Chiefs top 3 WRs out-performed the Giants top 3 by a mere 42 yards. I'd say production from the wide receiver corps for the Giants as a whole is even worse, as there isn't much after Carter and I didn't consider Boerigter's paltry 158 yards in the equation for KC. If the Chiefs WRs suck (leave the TE and RB out of it - that wasn't my argument), then the Giants WRs are at best mediocre (the word I used). The numbers (from ESPN.com) tell the story.
I don't hate the kid and I don't think he's going to be just like his brother either. I just think he is set up to fail with the Giants.
M
MelvinTScupper
Guest
he was almost in tears announcing he would rather go to law school than join the SD Chargers. And he had his daddy make the announcment. What more evidence is needed?I've never heard him whine. Have you?He's a whiney little brat that tried to dictate the draft by threatening a holdout.
bagger
Footballguy
Other than his name, what does this kid have going for him? He led an Ole Miss team nowhere, other than just trying to pad his stats at the expense of winning games in a poor division of the SEC.Eli is akin to Trent Dilfer leading a crappy Fresno St. team to Freedom Bowls and laughing all the way to the bank cashing in his paycheck. This kid has demonstrated no leadership, no class, and by all signs he is way in over his head, as demonstrated in his college career and now in the combines.To boot, he is in New York and will be eaten alive by the fans once he has his first 4 INT game (which will be the first game he starts). The pressure will get to him and he will wish he was in a laid back environment like San Diego. His pops thrived in New Orleans where he got his head kicked in every year with no pressure to win. His older brother thrives in Indy, a small market, where they are expected to make the playoffs and then choke it all away.The Manning family has a proven history of not winning big games (see Tee Martin winning the national championship with a worse Tennessee team than Peyton ever had) and Eli will continue this tradition and will get run out of New York on a rail.The entire Manning family is a sham in terms of a winning football family, and all they can do is try to put up numbers in small market towns with no pressure to win. Eli will expose this and crawl to some small market in a few years to live out his NFL career backing up solid winners.I hope Eli likes Gatorade because he is going to be shlepping it to better NFL players while holding onto his clipboard for the next 8 years.No Manning will ever win a Super Bowl title.
M
MelvinTScupper
Guest
:applause:
wharf rat
Footballguy
I believe it was the SD Chargers that initially made the announcement.he was almost in tears announcing he would rather go to law school than join the SD Chargers. And he had his daddy make the announcment. What more evidence is needed?I've never heard him whine. Have you?He's a whiney little brat that tried to dictate the draft by threatening a holdout.
Yenrub
Footballguy
As a Giants fan I sure hope he doesn't suck. Actually I doubt that he will suck, but I still think the Giants paid too much for him.Now about this elevating Ole Miss, I just don't see it.The four years prior to Manning, Ole Miss was 28-19 with 3 bowl appearances.His four years at Ole Miss they went 31-18 with 2 bowl appearances.Looks more like maintaining than elevating.
-OZ-
Footballguy
I conceded point #1I'm not taking issue with the others, I simply addressed your contention that a QB has to have top WRs to succeed. My point is simple, and maybe you can agree on it once you get past the fact that we AGREE on most of the rest of your arguments.
but if you need the gratification, here you go:
1. Again, conceded
2. Possibly, only time will tell. If Eli performs, I'm just guessing the players will actually like the kid.
3. I'm still calling BS. When you look at the WR stats, You must factor in the QB Trent Green is a LOT better than Kerry Collins. KC's system is a lot better than the Giants, but when you are talking just WR talent, I'll take Toomer any day over Kennison, even if you could consider the other 2 equal.
4. OK
5. Right, Ron Dayne is a stud.
6. OK
So, just to reiterate, the only issue I have with what you have said is on the WRs. Also, that you must factor in the TE with the WR corps. In some systems - KC, NYG, Baltimore, Denver come to mind immediately, the TE is either the #1 receiver or at least a top 3 target on the team. Do not be surprised if Shockey is the leading receiver in NYG next year.
Eli has an uphill battle to fight in NY, but I think he can do it.
I'm not calling him the second coming of Marino, Montana or Elway, but he will be a top 10 QB in the NFL.
Power Monster
The Midnight Stalker
I think that he will suck his first season and then he will start to ramp it up after some growing pains. There will have to be a lot of patience in NY and if the fans and media start to turn on him early he will be in trouble. I am not a big fan of the receivers in NY. I think that the team will have to get after some young talented receivers to grow with Eli but losing that number one pick for 2005 will not help. Shock is a guy that will compliment Manning but the current WRs are vastly inconsistent. Growing pains on the way folks...
allfaulkedup
Footballguy
Poor division of the sec huh???Well according to my calculations and Secsports.com the WEST DIVSION won the sec championship 3 times out of the 5 years Eli was at Ole Miss. Eli started 2 bowl games for Ole miss winning both one against NEB the other against OK ST. The biggest game other than the bowl games I think he played in was this year vs LSU when his kicker missed 2 field goals and his center stepped on his foot ending what was looking like a game winning drive LSU then went on to win the National Championship. So I don't agree with you at all Eli in my eyes is 2 outta 3 in big games.I will agree Peyton only has 1 playoff win in the pros but in college?? 1 sec championship in four years won all 4 bowl games he played in, never lost more than 2 games in a single year mainly he just lost to the Gators but c'mon Spurrier's FL Gators won the SEC champ game from 93 to 96 (played and lost to Bama in 92 BTW who were the eventual nat champs) to recap in the gators during this amazing stretch:93 the gators played in the sugar bowl beating W. VA really strange year as they lost to AUB and eventual national champs Florida ST (strange because although AUB was undefeated they could not play in Champ game nor Sugar bowl becuase of NCAA Sanctions) finished ranked 7th94 Played in Sugar Bowl lost to FL st finished ranked 5th95 Played in Fiesta Bowl for what I beleive was the first Bowl Alliance Game big blowout for NEB finished ranked 2nd96 played in Sugar Bowl beat FL st and won National Championship although I bet some buckeyes out there might argue My point being that face it FL gator football dominated in those years and they would have whipped just about anybody no matter who was QB at what school. Winning a national championship in college football especailly pre-bcs has a lot to do with "luck" Your boy Tee Martin would have never been in the "Destiny in the Desert" Fiesta Bowl game if it was not for a miracle win against AR (one of several comeback wins that year if you remember but probably the most ludicrous) With less than 3 mins to go the razorbacks have a FG blocked, about a min later a punt is snapped over the razorbacks' punter's head who kicks out it the back of the endzone for a safety instead of falling on it and then Clint Stoerner fumbles away the ball by placing it on the ground to "balance himself" with nobody around no less on a routine snap giving the ball back to UT on the 43 I believe. They actually call this game "The Miracle on Hollowed Ground" A year that UT actually started pre-season number 10 ( just about every Vol fan I know will gladly claim they were "unranked") but had the fortune of EVERY single team ranked ahead of them in the polls lose at least once some twice. The first year of the BCS and they play FL ST instead of Ohio ST (I don't think they were even using the coaches poll back then but hell the whole system sucks anyways) Point being I can name plenty of quarterbacks HOF'ers, future HOF'ers and Superbowl winners/losers who never won a College National Championship and a whole bunch of washouts and never were that did, so I really don't see how not winning a Nat Champ in college is a knock against your record. Perhaps a good topic to start in another thread.And finally the major difference in Tee's team in 98 and peyton's in 97 was on defense leonard little and about 3 others on defense left (how Tee could've lead a defense is beyond me) But on offense they were the same except for the percieved big time loss of marcus nash the wr. Tee still had peerless price/cedrick wilson and the incredible backfield of jamal lewis/shawn bryson/travis henry!!! Both Jamal and Travis were freshmen in Peyton's final year and I am not sure they played much but they sure did for TEE Henry in particular. Holy cow though UT had one of the best backfields in College History in 98. So to say that Tee's team was much worse than anything Peyton had is a glaring misstatement of the facts.Which leaves Archie correct he did play for a very small market team professionally (perhaps a reason his teams and the saints in general are not very good) the best record he posted was 7-9 I believe he did it twice and one year 78 he was the nfc mvp and a pro-bowler. Archie never played in a postseason game. Not too great but keep in mind when he was selected 2nd overall in 1971 the team had only played 4 seasons. In college Archie took Ole Miss to two bowl games (now this was when there was like 8 bowl games period) the 1970 gator bowl 7 point loss to Auburn and his biggest game the 1969 Sugar Bowl a 5 point win over AR who was the number one team in the nation at the time I believe. None of these records point to "Choke artists" IMO nor do they show a pattern of losing the "big" games. If you disagree then I think you are just ignoring the facts.
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allfaulkedup
Footballguy
BUENO just exactly WHAT Ole Miss Games did you "catch" with DUECE and Eli playing together??? The ONLY YEAR THAT Eli played in any games with Deuce was in 2000 (Deuce's senior and yes LAST year) that year although Deuce was hyped as a Heisman candidate he was hurt and played sporadic rushing for a grand total of 808 yds (main reason he was deemed an injury risk and lost some steam not only in the real NFL Draft but many FF Drafts as well). Maybe the game was the 2000 Music City Bowl one of 6 I believe “national" broadcast games they played that year. The game where Deuce ran for 22yds and Eli came off the bench in the 4th quarter and threw for three TDS (maybe it was the egg bowl you saw but kinda doubting that) Eli never made it in the egg bowl Hell Beuno Eli only attempted 33 passes the whole year.20 of those attempts came in the Music City Bowl 4th quarter and to top off your horrible judgment Deuce and already been pulled from the game when Eli went in!! So what you are, another Eli bashing Lemming or just someone who likes to throw around stats, games and information that are total fabrications just to make yourself feel better?BTW thanks for "telling us" that in 2000 you tuned into Ole Miss games on ESPN2 to watch Deuce the RB and not Romero Miller the QB I am sure we can all rest easy now, nfl scouts be warned though Beuno has a keen eye for "talent"
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allfaulkedup
Footballguy
I think you missed my point Coach, it was a rather lenghty post though, so here it is:Winning college National Championships means just about squat when it comes to "excellence" in the NFL or just plain winning. TEAMS win championships not QBS.Correct PEYTON has never won a Conference Championship nor a Superbowl, YET. His career is far from over and IMO he's career is off to a good start and he is one of the best QBs in the NFL right now.Archie played for the Saints hello the SAINTS we did not even make it to the playoffs until 1987 (took 20 years) and did not even win our first playoff game until 2000 lost the next game in a blowout (Vikes) have not been back since nor past the secound round EVER. Like I said Archie played on not just bad teams but some of the worst teams in NFL history however check to see if I am wrong but I believe him to be the only conference MVP ever named from a losing team.Also how about McNabb is he a choker?? Or just a good QB without enough supporting cast? In that case I would say that the person who holds just about every single passing record in the NFL was a choker who always lost the big game, Dan Marino.. would you?? And in case you forgot Elway almost walked away from the game never winning the big game as well (same knock was heard about him for years) and was little more than a handoff machine when his teams finally did win (not exactly but passing was not what the Den teams were doing best back then). However "gutsiest" run by an aging qb in a SB goes to Elway hands down. Now as we have finally got to the point where this thread is no longer about Eli and his chances of success in NY but people bashing his family for Crissakes this is going to be my last post here. But I have still yet to hear anyone name a rookie/young QB better prepared to handle the rigors of playing in NY than Eli.
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trader jake
Guest
Great point Aaron.Another thing to consider - the Giants could have traded down to #7 and selected Philip Rivers there instead... and still made the trade with the Chargers. The G-Men would have had an extra pick in their pocket and you know Eli wouldn't have cared about making a little less maney - he would have just been happy to be out of San Diego/sitting out a year hell.
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MelvinTScupper
Guest
huh. I agree with Pickles.
I completely agree Manning is better prepared to succeed right away...is more accurate...reads defenses better, etc. However, I do think Losman will be put in an ideal situation to succeed once he takes over from Bledsoe. I think Eli will be asked to play right away and I think he will struggle on that team and I think the fans will turn on him and that could lead to a bad situation. I also think he is in one of the toughest divisions in football now with 3 outstanding coaches competing against him, and the Giants traded away a VERY high draft pick next year that will hurt.as I mentioned, my comments are aimed more towards the situation then they are towards Eli. I think he's made things much harder on himself than necessary, and his development and performance will suffer as a result. I do think he's in a better situation than Philip Rivers though.
I wouldn't mind seeing him line up under center for the Bills, however. He's obviously a talented player with the bloodlines to be successful. My comments about Losman are also primarily directed towards his situation. I really can't imagine a much better situation for a young QB to be in when entering the league. It is simply ideal, and he will get great coaching from guys like Wyche and Clements.
I also despise Kevin Gilbride and in the future I plan to avoid any players that he has any influence over. Him being the QB coach of Eli is about the worst thing I could imagine happening. He's a complete ####### putz who stole the 2003 season from me.
as to your question about who could better handle the pressure in New York...I think I might take my chances with the mental makeup of Rivers over Manning, even though I don't believe Rivers is as talented as Manning. I think Rivers could be a Phil Simms type of QB though and I've never seen him get rattled.
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tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Completely disagree with this rationale. You guys are giving far too much value to Rivers and Big Ben.Odds are that only 1 of these 3 guys actually becomes a Pro Bowl caliber QB. If the Giants are/were sold that Eli is the one (as am I, though I have high hopes Rivers makes it 2/3), they had to get him, regardless of the cost.
It's easy to say the Giants should have slid to 7 and got someone like Big Ben now. In two years when Eli's on the verge of the Pro Bowl, and Big Ben is Dan McGwire Jr., you guys will be calling the Giants geniuses.
Eli is the closest thing to a can't miss the NFL has seen in 5 years.
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