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ESPN 30 for 30 (2 Viewers)

TLEF316 said:
As with most 30 for 30's, it was really well done and entertaining. But I just can't get behind anything that "Bad Boys" stood for. They had some tremendous players, but I just can't respect a team that took so many cheap shots.Throwing your body into a defenseless guy in mid-air is just straight bush league. Its not "being tough". Its not "playing hard". Its a straight ##### move.

Combine that with the lame, sore loser walking off the court nonsense, and they just came off bad.

I get that it was a blue collar mentality that resonated with their city, but I'm glad I'm too young to remember it.
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Hater McHater Knicks fan. :pointstoscoreboard: :)

 
pollardsvision said:
wdcrob said:
Ghost Rider said:
wdcrob said:
Ghost Rider said:
wdcrob said:
Who'd have guessed so many guys who hate basketball would be hanging around a hoops thread.

The Bad Boys wouldn't win 40 games today.
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Right. They once beat Bird's Celtics, Jordan's Bulls, and Magic and Kareem's Lakers in one playoff run, but they wouldn't win 40 nowadays in an Eastern Conference that is full of chump teams in the playoffs. :lmao:
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Can't win if half your team is suspended for every game.
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Because they wouldn't adjust their play to the rules of today?
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Sure they'd adjust. But they wouldn't have the offensive firepower to win with the current rules. After Isaiah none of the starters could create offense. Take away their style of "defense" (clutch, crab, hit) and they'd be just another team. 40 games was obviously OTT, but they'd never make a final.
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The refs must've really been blind back then.

Those thuggy Pistons that couldn't play defense without fouling were below the league average in number of fouls given in '87-'88 (#13) and in '88-'89 (#14). Somehow, after they lost that hacking thug Mahorn, they rose in the foul rankings (#10). It's not like a team with a bad reputation is going around getting away with tons of real fouls not being called.

In every one of those seasons, they were in the top 4 in the league in "fouls drawn".

I think people hear "Bad Boys", see Laimbeer's an #######, only think of the big moments of "thuggery", and lose sight of the fact that behind it all were fantastic overall teams with world class defenses.
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:goodposting:

They invented NBA defense, Chuck Daly and Jack McCloskey were geniuses for building the team the way that they did.

They loved being the villains and outworking everyone they played despite not having a Bird, Magic, or Jordan. Everyone hated them, some I see still do. If you don't respect them for what they did however, you don't understand sports. They are the team you want in your city.

 
Doctor Detroit said:
TLEF316 said:
As with most 30 for 30's, it was really well done and entertaining. But I just can't get behind anything that "Bad Boys" stood for. They had some tremendous players, but I just can't respect a team that took so many cheap shots.Throwing your body into a defenseless guy in mid-air is just straight bush league. Its not "being tough". Its not "playing hard". Its a straight ##### move.

Combine that with the lame, sore loser walking off the court nonsense, and they just came off bad.

I get that it was a blue collar mentality that resonated with their city, but I'm glad I'm too young to remember it.
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Hater McHater Knicks fan. :pointstoscoreboard: :)
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That guy is a Knicks fan? If so, wow. That is the pot calling the kettle black. The Knicks of the 1990s were a poor man's version of the Bad Boys.
 
Doctor Detroit said:
Bad Boys were my second favorite team ever behind the '84 Tigers. I don't give a #### what people think of that team, they kicked everyone's ### in the golden era of the NBA and really basketball. I watched the Pistons go from laughing stock of the NBA to the most feared team in my lifetime. They essentially had one star player, one great player in Dumars, one wildcard in a young Rodman, and a ton of movable parts that just fit well together. Budda, Salley, Laimbeer, Mahorn, Microwave, just a bunch of parts that made up the whole.

When I was a kid it was Celtics or Lakers, you had to pick a side. I always loved Magic, always rooted for the Lakers. So I hated the Celtics already, then hated them more and more and more as the Pistons were getting killed by them year after year. Losing in 1987 to them might still be the most heartbreaking series loss I've ever had as a fan.

I was never an Isiah fan, but he certainly was the most talented player and the franchise face. He is one of the greatest point guards to ever play and he was one of the biggest competitors ever to play, and he was a winner. I believe what Adrian Dantley says about him, but Isiah was the franchise and Aguire probably fit better. AD was probably my favorite player, but it's about the team and in the end AD was expendable. Rodman was like no other player to ever play, he had some ridiculous skills and speed...just amazing. Isiah getting left off the dream team was comical, whatever he did to anyone before or since was paid back ten times over by being excluded from that team. Shameful.

But they won. won, won and I never had a confidence in one of my teams like I had with them. They had a lot of really interesting personalities that still are pretty big today, and they were a blast to watch. Them pushing Barkley around, them getting all the tears Kevin McHale had to offer, and making Jordan who he ended up becoming make them the most important franchise of that time. Celtics weren't interesting, Lakers were glitz and glamor, and the Bulls were unlikable to the core because they felt like everyone owed them something. Pistons endure, there was no franchise like them before or since.

I'm so glad I got to experience this as a kid and a crazy sports fan, they just sealed my love for sports with their style and unique persona. hate them all you want, they along with Magic, Bird and Jordan made the NBA the monster that it is today.
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Adrian Dantley was a GREAT player, but he was on the downside when the Pistons got good. He is a legend in these parts. You don't see players like him anymore - 6'3" post-up guys. Barkley was AD, video-gamed-up.

 
BTW, I really appreciated Laimbeer using the word "vanquish" to describe beating the Celtics.

 
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pollardsvision said:
BTW, I really appreciated Laimbeer using the word "vanquish" to describe beating the Celtics.
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Laimbeer went to my high school, at Palos Verdes High School, which for a time at least was in the zip code reputed to have the highest per capita income in the US. He was probably the only guy in the NBA whose father earned more money than he did.

 
Doctor Detroit said:
Ghost Rider said:
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
that pistons team had 3 HOF players, Thomas, Joe D, Rodman. plus their coach.

Most modern dyansties don't have more than 3. Shrug.
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I'm with ya. I think history would be kinder to them had they won three in a row (in other words, had that phantom foul not been called on Laimbeer in '88). Then again, if the Pistons win it all then, who knows how things play out the next year with Dantley and all of that. It also doesn't help that three of the four "known" players from those teams are either major pricks (Isiah and Laimbeer) or just plain weird (Rodman).
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What? Laimbeer is a sweetheart, you have it all wrong. And how is history not kind to them? Two championships and they changed the way the game was played. History is very kind to them and most of the players from that team have went onto succeed beyond their careers. ####, they even had a future international ambassador. :mellow:
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I mean history is not kind to them in the sense that, prior to the recent 30 for 30, many had considered them an afterthought in a two decade stretch mostly dominated by the Lakers, Celtics and Bulls. Plus, many used the "they only beat the Lakers in '89 cause Scott and Magic were hurt" cop-out to not give them credit. And then many act like the Bulls only lost to the them for years because they weren't ready to win yet. No, the Pistons beat them cause the Pistons at their best were better than those Bulls teams at their best (the early 90s teams; the '96 team is another story).

And yeah, screw the Bulls. Scottie Pippen is an ####### personified, so him copping his "I wouldn't have shaken their hands anyway" attitude was a joke. He is the luckiest player ever, getting to play second fiddle to an in-his-prime Jordan (who's an #######, too).

 
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Ghost Rider said:
Doctor Detroit said:
Ghost Rider said:
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
that pistons team had 3 HOF players, Thomas, Joe D, Rodman. plus their coach.

Most modern dyansties don't have more than 3. Shrug.
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I'm with ya. I think history would be kinder to them had they won three in a row (in other words, had that phantom foul not been called on Laimbeer in '88). Then again, if the Pistons win it all then, who knows how things play out the next year with Dantley and all of that. It also doesn't help that three of the four "known" players from those teams are either major pricks (Isiah and Laimbeer) or just plain weird (Rodman).
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What? Laimbeer is a sweetheart, you have it all wrong. And how is history not kind to them? Two championships and they changed the way the game was played. History is very kind to them and most of the players from that team have went onto succeed beyond their careers. ####, they even had a future international ambassador. :mellow:
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I mean history is not kind to them in the sense that, prior to the recent 30 for 30, many had considered them an afterthought in an two decade stretch mostly dominated by the Lakers, Celtics and Bulls.

And yeah, screw the Bulls. Scottie Pippen is an ####### personified, so him copping his "I wouldn't have shaken their hands anyway" attitude was a joke. He is the luckiest player ever, getting to play second fiddle to an in-his-prime Jordan (who's an #######, too).
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:goodposting:
 
Dexter said:
Rewatching the Bad Boys 30 for 30 now and just a couple of thoughts.

Isiah saying he panicked on the inbound bird stole and that he knew he had a time out but didn't call one was really big of him. I think of Chris Webber and his refusal to take responsibility for his dumb time out in the NCAA finals.

Also something I think a lot of people miss about the Pistons walking off the floor after the Bulls beat them. The Celtics did the same thing to the Pistons in 88. That's where they got it from. It's literially two second in the documentary but there's a shot of a Piston shooting a free throw and the announcer saying the Celtics starters are leaving the court. Right or wrong the Pistons knew their time was over just like the Celtics knew their time was done. The Bulls I think where one of the first Championship teams that feel like everyone must give them respect. It wasn't enough to just win they wanted everyone to thank them for beating them and give them respect.

I guess that's what was different from those 80's teams (Pistons, Celtics, Lakers) winning was enough. That's all they cared about, and if the other team didn't like them oh well.
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I think the difference here (and I don't know for sure, it just seemed to be different based on the footage shown) was that the Celtic STARTERS left the floor while the entire Piston team left the floor. Maybe it was only the Piston starters and it was poorly shown, I don't know. The other difference was that at least McHale was shaking hands and giving due to the Pistons, while the Pistons shrunk out with their heads held low (at least Thomas).

 
I enjoyed Slaying the Badger. Although a one-sided view, I think everyone knows what happened in the '85 and '86 Tours, and it is interesting to see Hinault and Koechli look straight into the camera and lie through their teeth.

 
Is Laimbeer not an NBA coach because he pissed so many guys off when he was a player? Not sure why he's never got a shot.

 
Too bad about the Isiah in bound pass, I think that prevented Detroit from winning three championships. They would have lost to the Lakers in '87 but would have beat them in '88, easily. People hated those Pistons teams but they were really ####### good.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
I enjoyed Slaying the Badger. Although a one-sided view, I think everyone knows what happened in the '85 and '86 Tours, and it is interesting to see Hinault and Koechli look straight into the camera and lie through their teeth.
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Man that was an awesome documentary. Best I've seen of the 30 for 30s by far.

I remember LeMond being cast as a bitter former champion when Lance Armstrong was winning his 7. Guess we know better now.

 
A ton of these up on Netflix right now, have watched a bunch in the last week or so.

As a Canadian and a hockey fan, I'm very partial to Big Shot, King's Ransom, and Into the Wind.

When I was a kid in 2nd or 3rd grade, Terry Fox ran past my elementary school on the Trans Canada highway. The entire school and the whole town were out there supporting him. Still brings tears to my eyes to this day watching that documentary.

The Kansas fan in the episode about the original Naismith Rules is a whacko. How did he generate money while putting all of that together?

 
I saw "When The Garden Was Eden" over the weekend. The first half is engaging and entertaining, but it inevitably peters out towards towards the end. Worth a watch, though.

 
The Two Escobars is on right now. If you are into soccer or cocaine this is a very entertaining episode.

ETA/Spoiler Alert: Andres Escobar was allegedly murdered for scoring an own goal in the 1994 WC game against USA. :shock:

ETA2: Pablo Escobar was apparently murdered by racist trigger happy police! :rant:

ETA3: I'm drunk on turkey. :drive:

Fascinating episidoe nontheless.

ETA4: 80% of the show is en espanol. Smoke a bowl or toot a rail to help with the translation.

 
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chauncey said:
The Two Escobars is on right now. If you are into soccer or cocaine this is a very entertaining episode.

ETA/Spoiler Alert: Andres Escobar was allegedly murdered for scoring an own goal in the 1994 WC game against USA. :shock:

ETA2: Pablo Escobar was apparently murdered by racist trigger happy police! :rant:

ETA3: I'm drunk on turkey. :drive:

Fascinating episidoe nontheless.

ETA4: 80% of the show is en espanol. Smoke a bowl or toot a rail to help with the translation.
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Probably the best episode imo. That one, Jimmy V, and Hillsborough, although I haven't watched about half of season 1. The Two Escobars had some great social and historical commentary on top of the football.

 
Doctor Detroit said:
Too bad about the Isiah in bound pass, I think that prevented Detroit from winning three championships. They would have lost to the Lakers in '87 but would have beat them in '88, easily. People hated those Pistons teams but they were really ####### good.
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Their second team --Vinnie, John Long, Salley, Rodman, and Buddha was better than the starters were for a good chunk of the other teams in the league.

 
Raider Nation said:
Tonight is the story about Jim Valvano's 1983 NC State national championship team.
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I just seen this for the first time last week and it was awesome, I have a question though. There is a point during the show where they are all sitting in the restaurant talking and Terry Gannon brings up a commercial during one of the Super Bowls that showed the greatest moments in history and showed the final dunk. Can anyone tell me what commercial that was or where I could find it? It isn't a big deal, but I am curious now.

 
The Gospel According To Mac

Totally forgot about this story.

Holy roller head coach comes in a takes over down and out football program

Brings in some inner city kids that catch flack from locals

Stands beside his kids

Star QB knocks up holy roller coach's daughter

Star QB gets cancer and dies

Team rallies, wins Big 8

Plays ND in Orange Bowl for National Championship, but loses.

Team comes back the next year and wins NC, getting revenge on ND, but not without controversy (5th down v Mizzou) and adversary (starting QB goes down right before halftime)

 
Limp Ditka said:
The Gospel According To Mac

Totally forgot about this story.

Holy roller head coach comes in a takes over down and out football program

Brings in some inner city kids that catch flack from locals

Stands beside his kids

Star QB knocks up holy roller coach's daughter

Star QB gets cancer and dies

Team rallies, wins Big 8

Plays ND in Orange Bowl for National Championship, but loses.

Team comes back the next year and wins NC, getting revenge on ND, but not without controversy (5th down v Mizzou) and adversary (starting QB goes down right before halftime)
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Oops - forgot about splitting the NC with Georgia TechThe whole thing is right from the pages of 'The You Can't Make This Up' book

 
Gospel According to Mac was so frigging good. I thought Bill McCartney was a bit of a loon with all his promise keeper stuff, but my opinion on him is completely different today. I was blown away by this one. Such an inspiring story, IMO. I would have loved to have played for him if I had any talent. That guy had your back. I'm going to make my son watch this one with me.

 
General Malaise said:
Gospel According to Mac was so frigging good. I thought Bill McCartney was a bit of a loon with all his promise keeper stuff, but my opinion on him is completely different today. I was blown away by this one. Such an inspiring story, IMO. I would have loved to have played for him if I had any talent. That guy had your back. I'm going to make my son watch this one with me.
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It was really good.I thought Chasing Tyson was good, but I've been disappointed with the season as a whole. (Prince of Pennsylvania, Trojan War)

 
Richard Dent did not think much of Ditka.

Bears went 37-10 over the next three years and won one playoff game. NFC was awesome then though, Giants, Skins, and Niners were all superior products. The Packers cheapshot on McMahon probably prevented a chance at a repeat, but even if the Bears players think they would have won the '86 Giants IMO were every bit the team the '85 Bears were IMO.

Walter Payton deciding to sulk after the Super Bowl because he didn't score was unfortunate. Ditka should have gave him the ball on the goalline but in the end they won with one of the most dominating teams ever. Payton going to the broom closet is pretty ridiculous for a guy that was known as the classiest of guys. Sad story all around.

 
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Watched one on the Bills going 0-4 last night. Great story, great retrospective, especially just before the Broncos go into their 2nd in 3 years.

 
Doctor Detroit said:
Richard Dent did not think much of Ditka.

Bears went 37-10 over the next three years and won one playoff game. NFC was awesome then though, Giants, Skins, and Niners were all superior products. The Packers cheapshot on McMahon probably prevented a chance at a repeat, but even if the Bears players think they would have won the '86 Giants IMO were every bit the team the '85 Bears were IMO.
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That's a negative. There's a reason no one ever talks about the '86 Giants.
 
flapgreen said:
Doctor Detroit said:
Richard Dent did not think much of Ditka.

Bears went 37-10 over the next three years and won one playoff game. NFC was awesome then though, Giants, Skins, and Niners were all superior products. The Packers cheapshot on McMahon probably prevented a chance at a repeat, but even if the Bears players think they would have won the '86 Giants IMO were every bit the team the '85 Bears were IMO.
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That's a negative. There's a reason no one ever talks about the '86 Giants.
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They were 14-2 and outscored their opponents 66-3 in the NFC playoffs in a time of NFC dominance. They also had the best defensive player to EVER play the game, and Bill Parcels who is ten times the coach Ditka ever was. They were just as good IMO.

 
Doctor Detroit said:
Richard Dent did not think much of Ditka.

Bears went 37-10 over the next three years and won one playoff game. NFC was awesome then though, Giants, Skins, and Niners were all superior products. The Packers cheapshot on McMahon probably prevented a chance at a repeat, but even if the Bears players think they would have won the '86 Giants IMO were every bit the team the '85 Bears were IMO.

Walter Payton deciding to sulk after the Super Bowl because he didn't score was unfortunate. Ditka should have gave him the ball on the goalline but in the end they won with one of the most dominating teams ever. Payton going to the broom closet is pretty ridiculous for a guy that was known as the classiest of guys. Sad story all around.
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Payton could be extremely surly when you'd meet him at appearances, just personality.

 
Not a Bears fan at all, never have been.................but just LOVED the 30 for 30. Great.

Mcmahon meets Ditka with a beer. Classic. Loved the clip of Jim trying to catch a nap between pads on the field during super bowl week after being out partying.

Mcmichael is just a complete JOY to listen to him talk.

 
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