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ESPN 30 for 30 (1 Viewer)

JZilla said:
rockaction said:
JZilla said:
Pretty sure Fenway Park was built for dwarves

This was good, I haven't finished it yet but I watched about 2/3 so far. They don't seem to pin much blame on the crowd at all, nor do I see why they should..

Though it may be true those pens were built because of drunks and hooligans, they were also meant to be managed by competent security / police.
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The over-reaction from '85 -- politically -- mixed with the anarchism of imperfect crowd control techniques had a lot to do with it, I'm sure. It's easy in retrospect to criticize, but I think they were doing their best, aside from wdcrob's point above about the missed policing. People are trying. They're imperfect.

And I hate to throw water on an emotional topic, but the hooligans were some nasty ####### people, and the political responses, while imperfect, were almost an ongoing dialectic with those that just wanted trouble, if that makes any sort of sense.
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I believe you 100%, but nothing in any of the interviews leads me to think there was a lot of that going on this time. At least not so far, it ended pretty early..

I don't suspect there's any bull#### happening here either. Everybody seems pretty candid and unfiltered.
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Nah, I agree totally. My point throughout the whole thread is that the pens are a reaction to the hooliganism of the seventies and eighties, and that the pens' physical obstruction and imperfect policing caused this whole mess. I've never said -- nor believed upon watching it -- that this was hooliganism.

It's the political reaction and stadium design changes to things that happened prior to Hillsborough that caused it. I think, other than the inquest, that's the general consensus, too.

 
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Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
JZilla said:
Pretty sure Fenway Park was built for dwarves

This was good, I haven't finished it yet but I watched about 2/3 so far. They don't seem to pin much blame on the crowd at all, nor do I see why they should..

Though it may be true those pens were built because of drunks and hooligans, they were also meant to be managed by competent security / police.
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Segregating the away fans was an idea that they still tend to follow in Europe. What they didn't realize with the pens is that they compounded the real problem, which is that standing room only seating is a recipe for disaster. And it shouldn't have been a secret. I knew General Admission concerts were more dangerous growing up for exactly the same reason.
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Also, I posted this earlier. This has potential for disaster. The swaying of GA is ridiculous with that amount of passion. I personally love watching it, but you can see the potential problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Npp6gF8daQ

 
Yeah you can't really fault the press for initially assuming there was Hooliganism at play, but they let the cops and politicians totally snow them. Shocking from the British press I know.

 
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They only alluded to it once, and quickly at that, but I thought a major mistake was not stationing police at the tunnel entrance to the pens -- as had been done on previous occasions. Cops at the tunnel entrances would have been able to prevent more people from entering the central pens but for some reason, maybe because of the change in command from Mole to Duckinfield, this wasn't done that day.

 
rockaction said:
wdcrob said:
As is standard in domestic English football matches, opposing supporters were segregated in the stadium. Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane stand. Entry to the Leppings Lane stand was possible only via one of a small number of decrepit turnstiles, a restriction that led to dangerous overcrowding outside the ground before kick-off. In an attempt to ease pressure outside the ground, Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield, the senior police officer responsible for the match, ordered an exit gate to be opened. The opened exit gate led to a tunnel marked "Standing", which led directly to the two already overcrowded enclosures. In previous years, the tunnel had been closed off by police when the two central pens were full; however, on this occasion the tunnel was unmanned.
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So the game had already kicked off, and people could hear that. And coming in through the exit gate led you directly to a tunnel into the stands. If the tunnel had been closed people could have gone left or right and found other entrances into the stands. But the combination of urgency and the tunnel in front of them being open led to everyone pushing forward into the same tunnel, and to the overcrowding.

Also worth mentioning that since this was a neutral venue not many visiting fans were familiar with it.
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God, it's like The Who. They heard a sound check, and then the bull rush. I hate to harp on this, but I've always been terrified of the crush, and am a bit claustrophobic. Not too much, but enough to where these events scare the ever-loving daylights out of me. From Wiki:

The Who decided to perform a late sound check. Some members of the crowd heard this and mistakenly believed that the concert was starting. In the confusion some people in the back of the crowd began pushing toward the front, resulting in a mass rush toward the entrance. This caused many people to get trampled while some suffered more serious injuries. Eleven concertgoers were unable to escape the throng of people pushing toward them and were killed by asphyxiation. There were a total of twenty-six other injuries.

eta* Saw the Sox play in Game Two of the WS this year. Was honestly a bit scared in the tunnels and stuff. :no:
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I've been in a couple of crushes at concerts where I had no control over where I was headed and was in serious danger of losing footing and being trampled. It's damned scary and I'm not claustrophobic at all.

 
rockaction said:
wdcrob said:
rockaction said:
Mario Kart said:
Watching on Dailymotion.com

Or on footballorigin.com

Disaster waiting to happen with the design of the stadium. Terrible seeing those bodies crushed. Thankfully faces we're blurred by geez.
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But this is why the pens were there. Right at the beginning. Liverpool's crowd invasion of Juventus, I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxjdmLouaC4
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Probably a good idea to mention that no team had/has a corner on the hooligan market.

And that what happened at Hillsborough had nothing to do with hooligans other than the design of the segregated seating areas.
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No doubt. I spent about 150 man hours (*eta -- more than that, actually) studying this, and am not ignorant of the various "firms," "gangs," etc. The pens were a reaction to the "taking ends" movement of the seventies and the crowd invasions. It's inseparable.

I'm not blaming any victim. Surges from the populace are met by bad policing methods, erroneous design, and you have disaster.

This is a really good, fair video. It's a doc called "Hooligans" from 1985. They give equal time to both sides, and it seems fair to me. Plus, Maggie pops up about the Liverpool/Juventus thing about 40 minutes in, and all I can think of is Fred Armisen's send up of the British punker. Heh.

http://vimeo.com/40000709
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Thanks for the link. Watched it last night. I remember seeing some of those soccer brawls in teh stands when I was younger, but I had no clue that it was like that. what a bunch of knuckleheads.

 
rockaction said:
JZilla said:
Pretty sure Fenway Park was built for dwarves

This was good, I haven't finished it yet but I watched about 2/3 so far. They don't seem to pin much blame on the crowd at all, nor do I see why they should..

Though it may be true those pens were built because of drunks and hooligans, they were also meant to be managed by competent security / police.
Click to expand...
The over-reaction from '85 -- politically -- mixed with the anarchism of imperfect crowd control techniques had a lot to do with it, I'm sure. It's easy in retrospect to criticize, but I think they were doing their best, aside from wdcrob's point above about the missed policing. People are trying. They're imperfect.

And I hate to throw water on an emotional topic, but the hooligans were some nasty ####### people, and the political responses, while imperfect, were almost an ongoing dialectic with those that just wanted trouble, if that makes any sort of sense.
Click to expand...
Yep. I lived in London in the 80s and you couldn't have paid me or my friends to go to Stamford Bridge in those days.

 
I remember really hating that team. Was hoping history would make fix my memory. It did not. Those guys were all #######s.

 
I liked it. I started following the NBA the year after the back-to-back Detroit titles, so I didn't experience the Bad Boys really.

 
I absolutely loved those teams as a youngster. I graduated high school in the late 80s and everyone loved those bad boys teams in Michigan. Obviously, as a homer, I really liked the 30 for 30. I'm still upset that they lost that game against Boston when Bird stole the ball! Bird stole the ball! and then to lose to the Lakers on that bogus call for Kareem still bugs me.

 
Has there been a team in the last 25 years to win the title with their point guard as their best player? I guess you could argue Chauncey was the best player in 05 and Parker was the spurs best player at least once. And Lebron is kind of a point. But that is interesting to me anyway.

 
I loved the Bad Boys episode and I'm not a homer at all. Just as a fan of the game, I think what they did was amazing. The unseated both the Bird Celtics and the Magic Lakers while holding down the young Jordan Bulls.

Their defense made the game what it is today and Isaiah was a stud.

 
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Didn't know Isiah's brother died of AIDS. Making his fallout with Magic even more unusual. Isiah such a strange dude.

The ankle game was pretty special though. The shot of the foot in the locker room. :shock:

 
Jayrod said:
I loved the Bad Boys episode and I'm not a homer at all. Just as a fan of the game, I think what they did was amazing. The unseated both the Bird Celtics and the Magic Lakers while holding down the young Jordan Bulls.

Their defense made the game what it is today and Isaiah was a stud.
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That's not a compliment.

 
I thought it was really good. I respected the way they played defense, but I never did like Isaiah. He got a slight bump up from that documentary, I forgot how good of a game he had after his ankle tweak. I miss that squirrelly Rodman out there on the court playing balls to the walls.

 
Jayrod said:
I loved the Bad Boys episode and I'm not a homer at all. Just as a fan of the game, I think what they did was amazing. The unseated both the Bird Celtics and the Magic Lakers while holding down the young Jordan Bulls.

Their defense made the game what it is today and Isaiah was a stud.
Click to expand...
Meh. I think that while your statement is accurate, it is overstated.

They were younger than the Lakers and Celtics, right? So essentially they couldn't beat either until they started to show signs of age. The Bulls were too young when they beat them, they were essentially just a one man team until Pippen raised his game enough to be a true star. The Lakers, Celtics, and Bulls were dominant forces in the NBA over the course of an entire decade. The Pistons were only dominant in the space between those dynasties.

The funny thing about this 30 for 30, going in, the only Piston from that era I liked or had any respect for was Thomas (Dumars wasn't bad, just didn't give him much thought). Coming out of it, the only guy I liked was Lambier, and my opinion of Rodman was raised.

 
Any team that wins back to back are obviously great teams. But those Bulls, Celts and Laker teams were better and those Philly teams in the early 80's (Erving, Moses, Toney, Cheeks and Barkley joined at the end) were probably just as good as the Bad Boys, those Philly teams didn't win as many championships because they had to go against the Celts and Lakers at their peek.

Doesn't the fact that they admit they had to play dirty and get into the opponent's head just show that they weren't as talented and HAD to resort to that stuff to win? I loved how Laimbeer thought he could get into Bird's head. You throw enough cheap shots and dirty plays to seriously injure someone, eventually he's going to react. It didnt' effect Bird's play, Bird punched him and got thrown out WITH Laimbeer. Then Bird continued to light them up the rest of the series.

 
I'm in the minority but don't like that brand of basketball much like the big east of the 80s. Let's just best the crap out of people til we start winning.

 
Bull Dozier said:
Jayrod said:
I loved the Bad Boys episode and I'm not a homer at all. Just as a fan of the game, I think what they did was amazing. The unseated both the Bird Celtics and the Magic Lakers while holding down the young Jordan Bulls.

Their defense made the game what it is today and Isaiah was a stud.
Click to expand...
Meh. I think that while your statement is accurate, it is overstated.They were younger than the Lakers and Celtics, right? So essentially they couldn't beat either until they started to show signs of age. The Bulls were too young when they beat them, they were essentially just a one man team until Pippen raised his game enough to be a true star. The Lakers, Celtics, and Bulls were dominant forces in the NBA over the course of an entire decade. The Pistons were only dominant in the space between those dynasties.

The funny thing about this 30 for 30, going in, the only Piston from that era I liked or had any respect for was Thomas (Dumars wasn't bad, just didn't give him much thought). Coming out of it, the only guy I liked was Lambier, and my opinion of Rodman was raised.
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Gadzooks said:
Any team that wins back to back are obviously great teams. But those Bulls, Celts and Laker teams were better and those Philly teams in the early 80's (Erving, Moses, Toney, Cheeks and Barkley joined at the end) were probably just as good as the Bad Boys, those Philly teams didn't win as many championships because they had to go against the Celts and Lakers at their peek.

Doesn't the fact that they admit they had to play dirty and get into the opponent's head just show that they weren't as talented and HAD to resort to that stuff to win? I loved how Laimbeer thought he could get into Bird's head. You throw enough cheap shots and dirty plays to seriously injure someone, eventually he's going to react. It didnt' effect Bird's play, Bird punched him and got thrown out WITH Laimbeer. Then Bird continued to light them up the rest of the series.
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Everybody accepts that the Pistons weren't as talented as the dynasties they crossed paths with.

But it's a fascinating story for the struggle to finally get there, especially after the gut-wrenching near-misses. Their relative lack of talent only makes the story more interesting.

Maybe they had good timing, but they went to battle in the middle of 3 of the greatest dynasties in sports history and got two rings. You've got to work awfully hard to minimize that.

 
I've not seen the documentary but do recall that team being a hated rival of the Milwaukee Bucks - my team growing up. I recall hating Lambeer, but otherwise having a good respect for the bad boys. Hopefully Kelly Tripucka and his perm / mullet are featured.

 
Abraham said:
Has there been a team in the last 25 years to win the title with their point guard as their best player? I guess you could argue Chauncey was the best player in 05 and Parker was the spurs best player at least once. And Lebron is kind of a point. But that is interesting to me anyway.
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Lakers down? Magic, top five player all time. Note: i hate the lakers.

 
Gadzooks said:
Any team that wins back to back are obviously great teams. But those Bulls, Celts and Laker teams were better and those Philly teams in the early 80's (Erving, Moses, Toney, Cheeks and Barkley joined at the end) were probably just as good as the Bad Boys, those Philly teams didn't win as many championships because they had to go against the Celts and Lakers at their peek.

Doesn't the fact that they admit they had to play dirty and get into the opponent's head just show that they weren't as talented and HAD to resort to that stuff to win? I loved how Laimbeer thought he could get into Bird's head. You throw enough cheap shots and dirty plays to seriously injure someone, eventually he's going to react. It didnt' effect Bird's play, Bird punched him and got thrown out WITH Laimbeer. Then Bird continued to light them up the rest of the series.
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I don't think the Bad Boys were as untalented as some would have people believe. Thomas was an all-time great, just that his rep got colored by what happened after he was done and his rift with Magic. Mahorn & (especially) Lambeer were fine players for that team. You had Rodman when he was just a player, VJ was instant offense, and Dumars was money.

The thing is that, had Reggie Lewis & Lenny Bias not died, the Celtics may have had their crown as Beast from the East many years longer.

 
sbonomo said:
Abraham said:
Has there been a team in the last 25 years to win the title with their point guard as their best player? I guess you could argue Chauncey was the best player in 05 and Parker was the spurs best player at least once. And Lebron is kind of a point. But that is interesting to me anyway.
Click to expand...
Lakers down? Magic, top five player all time. Note: i hate the lakers.
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Not in the 25 year cut off.

 
I need to watch this when it is re-aired. I was a big fan of the Pistons back then and feel like they never got the credit they deserved for those two titles.

 
pollardsvision said:
Bull Dozier said:
Jayrod said:
I loved the Bad Boys episode and I'm not a homer at all. Just as a fan of the game, I think what they did was amazing. The unseated both the Bird Celtics and the Magic Lakers while holding down the young Jordan Bulls.

Their defense made the game what it is today and Isaiah was a stud.
Click to expand...
Meh. I think that while your statement is accurate, it is overstated.They were younger than the Lakers and Celtics, right? So essentially they couldn't beat either until they started to show signs of age. The Bulls were too young when they beat them, they were essentially just a one man team until Pippen raised his game enough to be a true star. The Lakers, Celtics, and Bulls were dominant forces in the NBA over the course of an entire decade. The Pistons were only dominant in the space between those dynasties.

The funny thing about this 30 for 30, going in, the only Piston from that era I liked or had any respect for was Thomas (Dumars wasn't bad, just didn't give him much thought). Coming out of it, the only guy I liked was Lambier, and my opinion of Rodman was raised.
Click to expand...
Gadzooks said:
Any team that wins back to back are obviously great teams. But those Bulls, Celts and Laker teams were better and those Philly teams in the early 80's (Erving, Moses, Toney, Cheeks and Barkley joined at the end) were probably just as good as the Bad Boys, those Philly teams didn't win as many championships because they had to go against the Celts and Lakers at their peek.

Doesn't the fact that they admit they had to play dirty and get into the opponent's head just show that they weren't as talented and HAD to resort to that stuff to win? I loved how Laimbeer thought he could get into Bird's head. You throw enough cheap shots and dirty plays to seriously injure someone, eventually he's going to react. It didnt' effect Bird's play, Bird punched him and got thrown out WITH Laimbeer. Then Bird continued to light them up the rest of the series.
Click to expand...
Everybody accepts that the Pistons weren't as talented as the dynasties they crossed paths with.

But it's a fascinating story for the struggle to finally get there, especially after the gut-wrenching near-misses. Their relative lack of talent only makes the story more interesting.

Maybe they had good timing, but they went to battle in the middle of 3 of the greatest dynasties in sports history and got two rings. You've got to work awfully hard to minimize that.
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Absolutely.

Having said that, after seeing the 30 for 30 last night, most of the stars from those Pistons teams still come off like major #####, especially Laimbeer, Mahorn and Dantley.

But while Laimbeer was a total **** and whatnot, he actually could play. You don't see many centers who could nail a 3 like he could, and he was a four-time All-Star (all of which happened before his rep as a physical player really became well-known, in the '87 playoffs).

 
Laimbeer was an elite player but his reputation overshadowed his shooting and defensive rebounding skills.

Laimbeer became the 19th player in league history to amass more than 10,000 points and 10,000 rebounds. Laimbeer was most effective off the defensive glass: from 1982 to 1990 no player in the league totaled more defensive rebounds. His streak of 685 consecutive games played (which ended due to suspension) is the fifth longest in league history.
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ETA: 5th best FT % All-time among centers.

 
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Yeah, watching Lame-beer and the rest of the WWE cast bodyslam a guy coming down the lane is much more enjoyable than watching a mid-1980's Lakers/Nuggets 133-129 game.

:loco:

 
the 1989 pistons lost 2 playoff games, both to jordans bulls.

That team beat the bird Celtics, Magic lakers and Jordans bull teams in the same playoffs

Laimbeer was a great player, very unique for a center in that era, dominate rebounder, great one one defender and could nail the 3 pointer.

 
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
the 1989 pistons lost 2 playoff games, both to jordans bulls.

That team beat the bird Celtics, Magic lakers and Jordans bull teams in the same playoffs

Laimbeer was a great player, very unique for a center in that era, dominate rebounder, great one one defender and could nail the 3 pointer.
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dominant

 
Raider Nation said:
Yeah, watching Lame-beer and the rest of the WWE cast bodyslam a guy coming down the lane is much more enjoyable than watching a mid-1980's Lakers/Nuggets 133-129 game.

:loco:
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The interesting thing is a few years before they acquired Mahorn and shipped Tripucka for AD, they were running n gunning every night. The key pieces were drafting Salley & Rodman. They brought the D and energy to another level.

James Edwards was my favorite bench player. Tremendous post game. Never put up gaudy numbers but he gave them a very solid 12-20 every night in the b2b season.

 
BobbyLayne said:
Raider Nation said:
Yeah, watching Lame-beer and the rest of the WWE cast bodyslam a guy coming down the lane is much more enjoyable than watching a mid-1980's Lakers/Nuggets 133-129 game.

:loco:
Click to expand...
The interesting thing is a few years before they acquired Mahorn and shipped Tripucka for AD, they were running n gunning every night. The key pieces were drafting Salley & Rodman. They brought the D and energy to another level.

James Edwards was my favorite bench player. Tremendous post game. Never put up gaudy numbers but he gave them a very solid 12-20 every night in the b2b season.
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YES!

I want to be entertained when I watch the NBA. If I want to see a thug show, I watch MMA.

 
Raider Nation said:
BobbyLayne said:
Raider Nation said:
Yeah, watching Lame-beer and the rest of the WWE cast bodyslam a guy coming down the lane is much more enjoyable than watching a mid-1980's Lakers/Nuggets 133-129 game.

:loco:
Click to expand...
The interesting thing is a few years before they acquired Mahorn and shipped Tripucka for AD, they were running n gunning every night. The key pieces were drafting Salley & Rodman. They brought the D and energy to another level.James Edwards was my favorite bench player. Tremendous post game. Never put up gaudy numbers but he gave them a very solid 12-20 every night in the b2b season.
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Is that still the all-time record for most points in a game? Man, it was so different then - D was something you turned on the last 12 minutes (if you had to), otherwise, Showtime ruled the day.

 
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