Explaining Away Young's Wonderlic (1 Viewer)

[B-Deep]

Agreed B-deep. Along with Mike Vick, he is likely the most polarizing player in the game right now. And he hasn't taken a snap.

J

Just imagine what the boards will be like when he and vick face off that first time!One thing I am certain of, it is going to be a lot of fun watching Vince.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Agreed B-deep. Along with Mike Vick, he is likely the most polarizing player in the game right now. And he hasn't taken a snap.

J

Just imagine what the boards will be like when he and vick face off that first time!One thing I am certain of, it is going to be a lot of fun watching Vince.

Yes it will.I still contend what I wrote earlier. This knocks him down a bit but he still goes early and to a better team and he fares very well at this level.

J

 

[guderian]

Having had the misfortune of watching a lot of Aaron Brooks (who also had a low wonderlic score) I'm not as concerned as others about Young's poor score. Brooks and McNabb showed that low scores don't necessarily doom a QB to failure. Also, Brooks has a poor work ethic and lacks leaderships skills and drive. Those are characteristics that, IMO, aren't shared by McNabb or Young.

 

[AB in DC]

Who is driving the coverup?

The NFL and the scouting organization, because test results are supposed to be confidential and they don't want to play this game. It's a credibility issue.

And how?

This part is easy. It looks like there is a contractual obligation on the scouting organization and the teams not to disclose anyone's test scores. So the NFL makes sure that everyone involved knows there are consequences for violated the non-disclosure provisions.At that point, the NFL folks can go out and say more or less what they want -- technically accurate and not explicitly violating VY's confidentiality -- and they know that no one could contradict them.

 

[Urinal Mint]

Whoop '99

As an Aggie (I graduated there, but I am not from Texas and really don't care that much about either school)

Hi mat,You sir, are not an Aggie. You attended and graduated from Texas A&M University.



J

 

[Jason Wood]

Well...the plot thickens. Young expressed his disappointment with the Wonderlic stories and feels 'disrespected' but at no point denies the score or suggested what in fact, he did score.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2353164

 

[Family Matters]

Well...the plot thickens. Young expressed his disappointment with the Wonderlic stories and feels 'disrespected' but at no point denies the score or suggested what in fact, he did score.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2353164

Rather than the plot thickens, it just continues to manifest itself into a story with teeth. You gotta love the fact that of all the people complaining about the report, not 1 person has said what he did score or why there was an error to begin with. Just more smoke blowing trying to get the attention off him. But it's not working too well.I know when a politician or public figure comes into contraversay the only way out is to come clean. Trying to do damage control makes everyone feel even more distrustful of the person. I gotta say I'm losing faith in Mr. Young. Not because I doubt he can play but in the way he and his folks are handling it.

If I'm a team that's seriously interested I am watching closely how he handles this situation. His response may be more important to teams than what really happened.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Whoop '99

Now there's a good Ag.... J

 

[clint_c]

I think his first test result means much more to the people on this forum that dislike Young for whatever reason than it does to NFL teams.

"Scouting directors around the league have emphasized the Wonderlic is just a small part of their overall evaluation of Young, and are giving him plenty of tests of their own."

The NFL is going to find out his true abilities themselves because every team intrested will be retesting him. To me that throws off the conspiracy theory....I mean people are making it sound like its 1 test and your in....you can cover up 1 test, but you can't cover up every teams test...

so why are we having this debate if teams are going to be testing him themselves?

It has more to do with people's agenda (either hating Young or loving him) than it has to do with any score on a test.

 

[matuski]

Whoop '99

As an Aggie (I graduated there, but I am not from Texas and really don't care that much about either school)

Hi mat,You sir, are not an Aggie. You attended and graduated from Texas A&M University.



J

Of course I am, I just don't have blinders on and can control my homerism (unlike these VY groupies).Oh - and Whoop '98 (apparently that makes me more of an Aggie).

 

[DonnyT33]

I was surprised to so many vote here http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...ic=228046&st=50 that they thought Young really did score a 6 and the "incorrect score" thing and retest was damage control.

For those that voted that way, can you expound on that?

Who is driving the coverup? And how?

Thanks.

J

His agents with the help of the NFL are likely behind this cover up. They screwed up allowing him to take it unprepared and now its total spin control. If he scored a six for real and from what I can tell he did (the story seems to be he took the first test and goofed off the whole time instead of trying his best...spin or not but i can believe that) score that low. His agents then went in total spin control and set up a new testing for him, likely showing him some possible questions and ANSWERS and he got ten more right for a 16 the second time around. No matter how you slice this one up this looks very bad for Vince and his agents. He should have been much better prepared before the fact. If he is just not very smart then its even a bigger problem for him. Imagine an opposing coach like Belichek game planing to confuse Young into making some big mistakes? Could be very easy if he scored a six and was trying. He was very unlucky as some have said a 10 score would have been at least average even if he as guessing. Maybe he got lucky the second time to score a 16? I doubt the absolute truth will ever be told about this one but I highly doubt that such a strong rumor would get out if it were not true. Makes no sense. VY is now dropping in the draft like a rock and is definitely behind Cutler at this point. Again if like most of us believe as do I that he had great trouble taking the test then opposing coaches may have an easy time confusing him into mistakes at the NFL level. He may be a total five year project now. Maybe he should have stayed in school after all? Either way he did cost himself lots of cash as the difference between a top three pick and a top 20 or so is huge.

 

[DonnyT33]

Either way its not good.

I think it it was effectively summed up by Rome this morning. His 6 is a huge problem in two ways.

1) Either he didn't know he was going to have to take the Wonderlic test and was not prepared for it at all which is a huge problem because he and his management are incompetent.

2) He was aware of it and but was unable to score better than a six. Which is a huge problem for an NFL QB as he is expected to be able to handle the complex NFL offenses. An even bigger red flag is that if he re-took the test and only scored a 16 which can be considered even worse that his original 6 on the second try.

Either way he has taken a huge hit and could have cost himself a lot of $$.

nail on head IMO here and if i had read this first I would have saved myself some time and just typed ditto instead of my post..nicely said and very likely 100% right fro.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Either way its not good.

I think it it was effectively summed up by Rome this morning.  His 6 is a huge problem in two ways.

1) Either he didn't know he was going to have to take the Wonderlic test and was not prepared for it at all which is a huge problem because  he and his management are incompetent.

2) He was aware of it and but was unable to score better than a six.  Which is a huge problem for an NFL QB as he is expected to be able to handle the complex NFL offenses.   An even bigger red flag is that if he re-took the test and only scored a 16 which can be considered even worse that his original 6 on the second try.

Either way he has taken a huge hit and could have cost himself a lot of $$.

nail on head IMO here and if i had read this first I would have saved myself some time and just typed ditto instead of my post..nicely said and very likely 100% right fro.

Again, #1 reason above has zero impact on how he'll fare at the next level. Hiring incompetent agents (assuming they were) has little to do with with his ability to be a good pro.J

 

[Liquid Tension]

J

What your not understanding is that if he had proper representation they would have prepared him to take the wonderlic which would mean that he would have spent time taking old practice wonderlics and reviewing different strategies to score better on it. They say its a test to test your ability to learn but you can also learn how to take any kind of test. Example SAT classes give you strategies to do your better.

Bottom line is I think he should have been better prepared to take it. It almost seems like he forgot it was part of the whole process.

I looked at the wonderlic to get an idea of the questions. The point above is critical because the strategy in taking the test could be critical to success. For example, the one I looked at had a 6 minute time limit and some of the questions are a 10 second response and others need math calcualtions that could take a minute or two. If the test is scored by how many you get right that would be important to know. If the test is how many you get right and then subtract how many wrong answers that would change the strategy as would knowing you don't get penalized for wrong answers. I also logged on one more time and noticed the questions were different (one out of the first 10 was the same), but it is not like taking it a 2nd time would give you the answers.

 

[Colin Dowling]

As I said.. it is slapping you in the face. I can understand homerism, but you are in flat denial.

Hairy is a homer and an ardent VY supporter, and that is well known at this point. However, you are clearly a Texas A&M Aggie fan, therefore you are not unbiased here either. Next you'll be telling me that Reggie McNeal is a better QB than Vince.

There's too many vince bashers and vince lovers around.

Agreed B-deep. Along with Mike Vick, he is likely the most polarizing player in the game right now. And he hasn't taken a snap.J

You obviously haven't seen the thread about Rashard Lee...

 

[DonnyT33]

Look, don't twist my words. I didn't say "no GM cares about the test". Obviously someone, at some point in time, thought it was a good idea. However, that doesn't mean there are even a handful of those guys left. Some things just get institutionalized even when they aren't necessary.

If I was a GM, I'd use the combine as a way to determine if a player had any glaring weaknesses. I'd look at the data I gathered there in conjuction with all the other massive background I had on the player.

If he had a bad no-pad 40, but had great game skills and played fast and with his hair on fire in pads...hey, I'm probably gonna say the 40 is inconsequential.

Same with the Wonderlic. If a guy had already appeared to me to be an idiot, then he scored low on the test, I'd hardly notice. But if a guy was noted for calm and excellent decision-making,  especially under pressure, even on the biggest of national stages, like Vince Young, then I'd put very little stock in the Wonderlic in the big picture.

I know there are guys who have significantly raised their stock this year with excellent 40 times.

Do you think anyone has raised their stock this year with a good score on the Wonderlic?

Nope, but I can tell you one person who may have lowered their stock.Then again maybe he didn't, who knows.

I don't think your assessment that the "vast majority of them(NFL GMs) put much stock in the test as an important tool" is at all correct. And if there is any position where they would put stock in it, it would be at QB. Even now, you have trouble admitting that GMs might think it matters "someone at some point in time MIGHT have thought it matered"

This doesn't mean VY sucks, that he will fall in the draft, that he is dumb, or anything else. But the test score WILL be discussed when teams are thinking of drafting him.

You cannot seem to seperate the test from the fact that it is getting Vince bashed by some people.

I have trouble admitting that, because that's what I'm hearing from NFL GMs and scouts. When I've never cared about the Wonderlic before this fiasco, the last few days of talk by these guys is all I have to go on, and that, by and large, is what they're saying.Dude. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. I never said the test wouldn't be discussed. I'm simply saying it won't have the effect on his actual draft position you seem to think it will.

This board wouldn't even be talking about this, at least not to this extent, if it wasn't Young. Before this, it was "Not throwing at the combine is gonna cost Young in the draft". This is all so typical.

WRONG. Any potential top 3 pick who scored a six on the test would be being talked about the same way here. Please stop saying anything else.

 

[DonnyT33]

The answer has been slapping you in the face for the last 2 days... are you denying VY lost a ridiculous amount of face/respect and perhaps draft value as a result of the media blitz?

My post stands.. as you yourself said noone gains from the exam, however clearly the last few days have shown you can lose a lot by being a ####### (hello VY).

Do you ever respond to something with your own opinion rather than a question?

Young hasn't lost anything. The draft isn't until April and the last time he was on a football field his team scored 50 points a game. You guys are a bunch of gossip driven women.

Not true. At a skills competition with other potential NFL draft QB's he was in a distance throwing contest as well as other throwing contests on ESPN 2. I watched it. VY did not win any of them and Brodie Coyle looked good. In fact in the distance throwing competition Young could not get his first two throws inside the 30 yard landing zone and his third just made it in but was well behind Coyles throw.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

The answer has been slapping you in the face for the last 2 days... are you denying VY lost a ridiculous amount of face/respect and perhaps draft value as a result of the media blitz?

My post stands.. as you yourself said noone gains from the exam, however clearly the last few days have shown you can lose a lot by being a ####### (hello VY).

Do you ever respond to something with your own opinion rather than a question?

Young hasn't lost anything. The draft isn't until April and the last time he was on a football field his team scored 50 points a game. You guys are a bunch of gossip driven women.

Not true. At a skills competition with other potential NFL draft QB's he was in a distance throwing contest as well as other throwing contests on ESPN 2. I watched it. VY did not win any of them and Brodie Coyle looked good. In fact in the distance throwing competition Young could not get his first two throws inside the 30 yard landing zone and his third just made it in but was well behind Coyles throw.

Well, then I guess you weren't watching when Young won the last segment going away and Croyle was 4th. Young was the only qb to hit the target on the long throw into the end zone, about 40 yards, and was also, I believe, the only one to hit the shorter throw on the run. He was 2nd in each of the other segments of the competition, and on a points basis was the overall winner. No other qb finished in the top 2 of every event.See it for yourself...Capital One Scramble, from ESPN (and Putfile)

Some of you guys really are funny...looks to me like you just proved ChiTown Mole's point.

 

[cstu]

I'm an older fan and this kind of stuff is a reflection of society in general. Football fans have become very feminine just like the rest of America over the last decade or two. Gossip, cat fights and snide comments push topics like this. I'm not sure about you young guys. We didn't have anything like metrosexuals back in the day, but we never argued about Marino's 14 like this either...sheesh.

What about his coke habit?

 

[cstu]

Look, don't twist my words. I didn't say "no GM cares about the test". Obviously someone, at some point in time, thought it was a good idea. However, that doesn't mean there are even a handful of those guys left. Some things just get institutionalized even when they aren't necessary.

If I was a GM, I'd use the combine as a way to determine if a player had any glaring weaknesses. I'd look at the data I gathered there in conjuction with all the other massive background I had on the player.

If he had a bad no-pad 40, but had great game skills and played fast and with his hair on fire in pads...hey, I'm probably gonna say the 40 is inconsequential.

Same with the Wonderlic. If a guy had already appeared to me to be an idiot, then he scored low on the test, I'd hardly notice. But if a guy was noted for calm and excellent decision-making, especially under pressure, even on the biggest of national stages, like Vince Young, then I'd put very little stock in the Wonderlic in the big picture.

I know there are guys who have significantly raised their stock this year with excellent 40 times.

Do you think anyone has raised their stock this year with a good score on the Wonderlic?

Nope, but I can tell you one person who may have lowered their stock.Then again maybe he didn't, who knows.

I don't think your assessment that the "vast majority of them(NFL GMs) put much stock in the test as an important tool" is at all correct. And if there is any position where they would put stock in it, it would be at QB. Even now, you have trouble admitting that GMs might think it matters "someone at some point in time MIGHT have thought it matered"

This doesn't mean VY sucks, that he will fall in the draft, that he is dumb, or anything else. But the test score WILL be discussed when teams are thinking of drafting him.

You cannot seem to seperate the test from the fact that it is getting Vince bashed by some people.

I have trouble admitting that, because that's what I'm hearing from NFL GMs and scouts. When I've never cared about the Wonderlic before this fiasco, the last few days of talk by these guys is all I have to go on, and that, by and large, is what they're saying.Dude. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. I never said the test wouldn't be discussed. I'm simply saying it won't have the effect on his actual draft position you seem to think it will.

This board wouldn't even be talking about this, at least not to this extent, if it wasn't Young. Before this, it was "Not throwing at the combine is gonna cost Young in the draft". This is all so typical.

I'm interested in knowing where you think he will be drafted. Pre-Wonderlic he was a lock in the top 3 and now that's a remote possibility.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Look, don't twist my words. I didn't say "no GM cares about the test". Obviously someone, at some point in time, thought it was a good idea. However, that doesn't mean there are even a handful of those guys left. Some things just get institutionalized even when they aren't necessary.

If I was a GM, I'd use the combine as a way to determine if a player had any glaring weaknesses. I'd look at the data I gathered there in conjuction with all the other massive background I had on the player.

If he had a bad no-pad 40, but had great game skills and played fast and with his hair on fire in pads...hey, I'm probably gonna say the 40 is inconsequential.

Same with the Wonderlic. If a guy had already appeared to me to be an idiot, then he scored low on the test, I'd hardly notice. But if a guy was noted for calm and excellent decision-making,  especially under pressure, even on the biggest of national stages, like Vince Young, then I'd put very little stock in the Wonderlic in the big picture.

I know there are guys who have significantly raised their stock this year with excellent 40 times.

Do you think anyone has raised their stock this year with a good score on the Wonderlic?

Nope, but I can tell you one person who may have lowered their stock.Then again maybe he didn't, who knows.

I don't think your assessment that the "vast majority of them(NFL GMs) put much stock in the test as an important tool" is at all correct. And if there is any position where they would put stock in it, it would be at QB. Even now, you have trouble admitting that GMs might think it matters "someone at some point in time MIGHT have thought it matered"

This doesn't mean VY sucks, that he will fall in the draft, that he is dumb, or anything else. But the test score WILL be discussed when teams are thinking of drafting him.

You cannot seem to seperate the test from the fact that it is getting Vince bashed by some people.

I have trouble admitting that, because that's what I'm hearing from NFL GMs and scouts. When I've never cared about the Wonderlic before this fiasco, the last few days of talk by these guys is all I have to go on, and that, by and large, is what they're saying.Dude. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. I never said the test wouldn't be discussed. I'm simply saying it won't have the effect on his actual draft position you seem to think it will.

This board wouldn't even be talking about this, at least not to this extent, if it wasn't Young. Before this, it was "Not throwing at the combine is gonna cost Young in the draft". This is all so typical.

I'm interested in knowing where you think he will be drafted. Pre-Wonderlic he was a lock in the top 3 and now that's a remote possibility.

I don't think anyone was a lock for the top 3 pre-combine. There's too much that can, and always does, happen between the combine and the draft. There's prolly more yet to come. People rise and fall every year, then teams draft according to need, or trade down, surprising everyone with the order of the first several picks. Right now there are teams out there who want some very unexpected guys very badly...names who would surprise us all. We'll find out those names on draft day.

I think Young's as much of a lock for the top 7 as anyone, but I really think he probably still goes top three or 4. Anything can happen in the NFL draft, though....trades, etc.

He doesn't have to make everyone love him...just one team.

That said, I really hope he doesn't end up with the Texans or Saints, and I don't think he will. Those are just jail sentences.