Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
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Explosions in Manchester? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Michael Brown
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
There is a difference between laws and rules of morality. I was speaking of the latter. That being said I do believe, generally, in the rule of law.
msommer
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Mario Kart
Footballguy
This is where and why I don't listen to the people that spout off "rule of law" all the time as some justification for why what someone is doing is wrong. The Rule of Law changes, and has changed dramatically over our own history. To say "Rule of Law" and claim that is some finality to whatever situation is at hand is a juvenile practice and does not hold much weight. Who's Rule of law? What Rule of law are we going to apply? Today's? Yesterday's? 1901's? Each of those Rules of Law are dramatically different.
Our government was founded under the notion that all men/women are free. It is our duty to fight for freedom first and foremost before any injustice is done or has been done. That is why we have a bill of rights that protects the rights of the accused rather than locking them up and throwing away the key without just cause. It is shameful to see/hear Americans want immigrants of all kinds to follow our laws when they just want freedom and we deny them that freedom. We were founded with Freedom as the foundation of this nation, with immigrants, being the founders of this same nation. And, Americans want to turn their backs are the ideals that brought this great experiment to the forefront of self governance around the world? That is crazy and asinine.
It is shameful to see and hear many who spout of about the constitution and then know nothing of its reasons for being written nor the ideals of this country. I won't say it's anti-American however it sure is sickening to see people willfully turn their back on other people because others seek what we have been granted by being born here. Grow up and fight for freedom... not some anti-immigration ideal. That is truly wrong.
Chemical X
Footballguy
going forward, mysterious deadly 'accidents' need to befall the families of terrorists. it can be just a coincidence, but understand, if you wanna be a terrorist, your family wont survive it either.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
That is true. When law offends my notions of morality or practicality, I tend to ignore it. As I'm guessing, do you, at least in the latter case. Ever driven over the speed limit? Jaywalked?
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Sure.
I have not argued that there should be no consequences for me when I have, or that others should do so, and are justified in doing so because I have. Generally I endeavor to not do hose things. But am I a paragon of virtue and lawfulness, no.
The next few years may be interesting. How does one, in a supposedly participatory democracy, deal with Presidential Orders, edicts from on high. How does one, also, deal with laws or even Constitutional amendments with which one vehemently disagrees? Through civil disobedience perhaps. When one does do they then face the consequences of their actions? WE are in an interesting time.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
When I first heard ir was going in an exit during the outgoing crowd, I thought it was a security issue that will be corrected going forward. This almost sounds unpreventable :[
Tackling Dummies
Footballguy
shadyridr
Footballguy
Well this guy was on a known terrorist watch list but yet still roaming the streets, so maybe not completely unpreventable.
Max Power
Footballguy
its a damned if you do, damned if you dont. Is the answer to put 24/7 govt funded surveillance on everyone?
shadyridr
Footballguy
they should be in jail
Pedophiles get jailed for downloading child porn but terrorists don't get jailed for downloading Islamic jihad training videos or going to training camps.
Max Power
Footballguy
I wont disagree with your point, but we both know society gives a free pass until a crime goes down. Innocent until proven guilty.they should be in jail
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
So a guy on a watch list managed to procure bomb making components.
RC94
Footballguy
Going to terrorist training camps, downloading Islamic jihad training videos, etc... should be a crime like downloading child pron is. Carrying out an attack is obviously a more serious crime, like being the one who performs the act of child pron (as opposed to downloading it), but all steps before the attack should be a crime.
The only thing I can think of for why they let them continue to plan and gather materials is because they want to find the larger plot and/or more important leaders, but at this point I think a different approach is needed.
bagger
Footballguy
Fair point and maybe that needs to change. Although that still won't completely stop the problem.they should be in jail
Max Power
Footballguy
Im still reading/learning on this. I didnt know he went to a training camp. did the UK know this when he re immigrated back into the country?
Toe Cutter
Footballguy
A former Navy Seal on Fox just now said he doubts he made this bomb himself. He said that type of suicide vest takes some expertise and the makers of those types of bombs aren't the ones that carry out the suicide mission.
RC94
Footballguy
I'm not sure if they knew before hand on this one, but they do know who keeps going back and forth between places like Syria, Yemen, etc.. and the UK or US or France. Anyone who does that should be under surveillance and they can put the pieces together from there. IIRC he was already a "person of interest" before the attack so they did know some of it.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
So the guy on a watch list had contact with a bomb maker, or received delivery from one. Makes me wondering who is watching the watch list, and how diligently. There are interesting questions here, from my perspective. I doubt we will get answers to them, but interesting nonetheless.
What was your take, if any, when you heard the interview?
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Max Power
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
Eliminated?
If im hearing you correctly, you want to shortcut the legal process and actually kill suspects who fall into a group you philosophically believe is making the world a worst place.
You sound like a terrorist yourself.
Toe Cutter
Footballguy
Apparently this guy was hanging ISIS related flags and yelling out hateful stuff that these terrorists say according to his neighbors. His parents who are back in Libya took away his passport too because they were afraid of what he may do.
As far as your question, I think these terrorists are doing what they can to remain one step ahead of the people monitoring them.
RC94
Footballguy
I edited my post. I think they knew some things about him, which is why he was a person of interest before the attack, but I don't really know more than you on this. My point is that I agree with your statement that innocent until proven guilty and we have to preserve our freedoms, which will naturally make us open to attack, but I do think certain activities should be policed more harshly at this point and doing things like downloading terrorist training videos should be considered a much worse crime than it currently seems to be. I am tired of all of the after the fact investigations. We need to do a better job of getting them off the street before they kill lots of people.
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Billy Bats
Footballguy
They say if you see something, say something. A 22 year old dark skinned male walking around amongst teenage girls, probably bundled up to hide his bomb, I would think would be noticeable. Some will call it profiling, and that's ok with me. In these days if something sticks out like a sore thumb then it's probably worth checking out.
beer 30
Footballguy
Occam's razor
As if they care about friends and family. They strap bombs to their children and wives and send them to the front lines. The terrorists view of life and a Westerners view of life are very different but you are probably more aware of this than most. You've traveled the world and seen it up close, do you really believe it would matter to someone who is resigned to blowing themselves up and taking as many innocent civilians with them as possible would care much about what happens to their family?
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/the-manchester-attack-will-change-british-life-for-the-worse/article35084237/
The problem is that there are hundreds such people, far more than agencies can monitor (it can take dozens of full-time officials to keep tabs on one suspect individual).
Mr. Barrett described the scope of the problem: “You’ve got the returnees from Iraq and Syria, there are over 400 of those, there are all the people who wanted to go to Iraq or Syria but were stopped, we heard some time ago there were 600 of those, so already you’re up to 1,000 before you even start on the people who live here and maybe never expressed any or didn’t knowingly express any intention to go to Syria, so what do you do about that?”
This is where I sit back and wonder...if you have 400+ individuals returning from Jihad, why monitor? Why let them back in the country? And if you do, why let them walk the streets? Lock them up. I know that's not a popular opinion but jeez, it's pretty clear these folks have been radicalized in some way. At some point you gotta throw the PC stuff out and do what makes sense.
Max Power
Footballguy
Totally with you on this one. The problem is that most people take an all or nothing approach to it. now if I had to take an all or nothing side, I'd take the nothing. At least until the govt can show they screen people appropriately.
RC94
Footballguy
Agreed - preserving our way of life needs to be the priority. Even though we need a different approach, since an all or nothing tactic clearly isn't working, one thing to keep in mind is that many of the successes the CIA or FBI or MI6 have are secret, while their failures are front and center on TV. I know people who work in IC and they are smart and hard working. They want the same things as you and I and they do a lot of good things we don't hear about.
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jonessed
Footballguy
Toe Cutter
Footballguy
shader
Footballguy
Well that's not happening. They've cancelled a victory parade for Chelsea and deployed the Army in the streets. Also, concerts will likely be extremely vetted.
BTW, all these are likely smart decisions. But with each bad attack, the "way of life" gets changed a little bit.
Max Power
Footballguy
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Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
[icon]
Insoxicated
Well I don't see how letting millions more unvetted people isn't the answer, then. Carry on!
timschochet
Footballguy
Olivia Campbell is among the dead. She's the one whose mother appeared on all the news stations Monday night.
Dammit.
Dammit.
Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
What I want is to skip the" rule" where they (terror suspects) have to actually kill somebody before they can be dealt with...If they are on a terror watch list they should be brought in, investigated and given there day in court and if convicted of terror or supporting terror , eliminated. You can define eliminated however you like.... That's what I want..
beer 30
Footballguy
Yea i don't get it
You can call it whatever you want but if you have a large population of fighting age men coming over as 'refugees' and you don't think there are ulterior motives in this day and age then you have your head in the sand.
The aside to that is tell me how you stop what happened without prior knowledge. You can't other than someone in his community stepping up and turning him in before it happens. Look at any NFL game in America. There are choke points where large numbers of people have to go, no way someone strapped up wouldn't have a similar result if he pushed the button at rush hour.
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