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Florida Politics (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter The Commish
- Start date
rustycolts
Footballguy
Another example of earth 1 and 2. On earth 1 DeSantis is killing people willy nilly, discriminating against gay folks. banning masks, telling people to take animal worming medicine. Not letting people make the decision on who they serve in there business. He isn't doing any of those things on earth 2.
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
This @IvanKaramazov
The cruise industry had to sue so they could require people to be vaccinated. What he is try to do with schools is highly publicized.
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
I'm done on the Covid topic. I guess I'm just sensitive because of the loved ones that have died from it. The others who have recovered but still suffering from loss of taste and smell, vertigo and other ailments. The too many people I know living with cancer afraid to leave their house because others can't get vaccinated or wear a mask. Millions of people have died from this and millions more suffering still from contracting it but a handful of elected leaders still say it's the flu and overblown. Apparently trying to protect yourself and others during the pandemic is a fundamental strike against the BOR. Vaccines are sent by Satan himself and better to die or take any kind of drug after the fact that your Aunt Gertrude shared on FB to cure you. I'll ignore the dozens of stories I've read, which probably means that there are thousands of them, of people on their deathbed begging people to not be stubborn like they were and get vaccinated, wear a mask, and take this seriously until we can get a handle on it.
I could be jaded and take the position of to hell with my fellow Americans. Well, I'll never do that and I'll continue to pray that the Grace of God enters the souls of His children to do the right thing and quit following false prophets. I give up here on this board. Facts don't matter and I'm too old to spend this much time trying to swim up river.
I could be jaded and take the position of to hell with my fellow Americans. Well, I'll never do that and I'll continue to pray that the Grace of God enters the souls of His children to do the right thing and quit following false prophets. I give up here on this board. Facts don't matter and I'm too old to spend this much time trying to swim up river.
Yeah, I am amazed at this everyday. I had both vaccines in March/April, and just got over COVID last week. I feel very lucky to have had the shots as my symptoms were like a bad cold (with loss of taste and smell). We know of 3 people in our circle who have passed from COVID and a few more who were hospitalized and still struggling.
I'm probably as safe as anyone now having had COVID plus both vaccines, but have no problem wearing a mask wherever and whenever needed. What really is the big deal? I just don't get the pushback at all. Lets just get thru this thing and we won't unless everyone is onboard.
Punxsutawney Phil
Footballguy
Your anger at Floridians is misplaced. The Delta is so contagious nothing was going to stop it. Could everyone masked help a little? Maybe, but ultimately China is to blame for covering nthis up and not granting inspectors full access. I'm still not convinced wet markets are even shut down.
The Commish
Footballguy
#1. "fellow Americans" <> "Floridians"
#2. Delta shouldn't have even existed. Likely wouldn't have existed if we'd done what was necessary and not provide ample opportunity for the original to mutate.
The Commish
Footballguy
I personally haven't heard of anyone claiming any of the above except the mask bannings, which is inaccurate as a matter of technicality/specificity. You can make the rule all you want, you just can't enforce. To the bold, what do you call not allowing businesses to require vaccines to come to their business or on their cruise ship?
So I guess I live on earth 3?
The Commish
Footballguy
Here on earth 3 the issues are threefold:
1. Schools are fighting for the right to require masks. They have to fight for this right because of the requirement of in person learning being an option. What about online? Oh, well, Florida does have Florida Online, but there is limited space and the time frames to sign up came and went prior to mask decisions being made. Also, for many of us, if you choose to put your kid in Florida Online, you lose your spot at your existing school. Oh, and all the funding that was there for online education in 2020 to supplement Florida Online (and distancing in the schools) has been taken away, so your county (if you're lucky to have it in your county) is the only other option, but also introduces loss of place at current school. So online really isn't an option.
2. Cruise lines are fighting for the right to require vaccines for travel. This is my most favorite to follow because their work around for this is amazing. They are essentially making the cruise event miserable for those who choose to not get vaccinated. Daily tests, masks at all times, sectioned seating for dinners/shows/etc. Specific sections of the boat for unvaccinated. Basically segregation, but with vaccines. I can't imagine going on a cruise under those circumstances.
3. Right now, municipalities can institute mask mandates, but aren't allowed to enforce them with penalties.
4. Right now we have various counties asking their consumers to reduce their water consumption so they can supplement the hospitals with liquid oxygen they use in water treatment.
5. Right now we have parents insisting on stepping on school grounds without a mask where the mask is required assaulting students who confront them.
Does anyone want to talk about these things?
1. Schools are fighting for the right to require masks. They have to fight for this right because of the requirement of in person learning being an option. What about online? Oh, well, Florida does have Florida Online, but there is limited space and the time frames to sign up came and went prior to mask decisions being made. Also, for many of us, if you choose to put your kid in Florida Online, you lose your spot at your existing school. Oh, and all the funding that was there for online education in 2020 to supplement Florida Online (and distancing in the schools) has been taken away, so your county (if you're lucky to have it in your county) is the only other option, but also introduces loss of place at current school. So online really isn't an option.
2. Cruise lines are fighting for the right to require vaccines for travel. This is my most favorite to follow because their work around for this is amazing. They are essentially making the cruise event miserable for those who choose to not get vaccinated. Daily tests, masks at all times, sectioned seating for dinners/shows/etc. Specific sections of the boat for unvaccinated. Basically segregation, but with vaccines. I can't imagine going on a cruise under those circumstances.
3. Right now, municipalities can institute mask mandates, but aren't allowed to enforce them with penalties.
4. Right now we have various counties asking their consumers to reduce their water consumption so they can supplement the hospitals with liquid oxygen they use in water treatment.
5. Right now we have parents insisting on stepping on school grounds without a mask where the mask is required assaulting students who confront them.
Does anyone want to talk about these things?
The Commish
Footballguy
Osaurus
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
We all need to get away from acting like the extremes of either party or any issue represent the majority. I don’t think it does. There’s no reason we can debate the job Desantis is doing without the hyperbole of him killing people or the other side ignoring what he is doing wrong because a couple of people (in here) saying he’s killing folks. One side is over the top and wrong and the other is deflecting.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Update?
I know how much you like to update old posts and threads - thought I would save you the trouble.
rustycolts
Footballguy
No just go back and read the last 2 or 3 pages of this thread. DeSantis was accused of discrimination against gays. In this thread it was stated he is killing people. Also that he is advocating using horse wormer as treatment. That he is insinuating you shouldn't get the vaccine. That he wants to ban masks. It's here in this thread and none of its true.
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The Commish
Footballguy
Earth 3 it is (it's clear that you and squirrel live on different planets).....I DO appreciate you leaving "not allowing businesses to do what's best for them" off your list. This is why I like interacting with you. FWIW the comment I read regarding discrimination was that he was OK with people doing it, not that he was actively discriminating against them, though the people of Orlando and survivors of the Pulse shootings would likely disagree with my take. I'm sure they feel he is discriminating against gay people.
Joe Mammy
Footballguy
Where does anyone say he's advocating using horse wormer?
All I said was horses don't have any. The reason is a shrink who advises the Grim D on covid said the horse dewormer is effective. So now the loonies who follow this craze are taking horse and bovine dewormer.
And you can't deny that the Grim D is actually selling "Don't Fauci My Florida" tees and koozies.
Meanwhile he boasts that FL is doing great against Covid while his hospitals are filled to near capacity. Refrigerator trucks are being used for the load of cadavers waiting to make it to the funeral homes who are overwhelmed....
Yeah, FL is doing great Mr. Gov. "Our hospitals are open for business."
Punxsutawney Phil
Footballguy
Punxsutawney Phil
Footballguy
It's going to be impossible to convince Floridians that kids need to wear mask at school everyday when everywhere else nobody wears mask. Realistically, how much of a dent are you putting in this thing when the kids are all forced to be masked, and outback, Publix, etc. Literally, everywhere else you go in life nobody is masked.
The Commish
Footballguy
Predicting an alternate future if we'd done things differently is, of course, speculation. The more opportunity you give these viruses to mutate, the more opportunity they have to grow succeed. If you provide them one shot and they aren't successful, that's the end. The virus dies off and we don't have to worry about it.
The Commish
Footballguy
It's not an attempt to convince anyone of anything. It's pretty clear the people here are good with their recklessness. They flaunt it in many instances. None of that discusses the other side of the equation I was addressing, which was the "not on my watch" group who's essentially saying "if you want to not wear a mask, that's fine, don't do it around me".
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Thanks! That was from December of last year so looks like all the predictions that Florida was just mere weeks away from doom kinda fell through. Don't worry though, there's always those who peddle the "just right around the corner" fear mongering.
rustycolts
Footballguy
To be honest I don't really have a problem with a business asking me to see proof of my vaccination. Everyone should have gotten a little card with the type and date of after shots. I had to have shot record proof in school growing up also in the army. As a matter of fact I think I still have my military record stashed with my dd 214. If I like the place that once proof then I have no problem showing it.. On the other If I don't like the place then screw them I just won't patronize them which I probably wouldn't have anyway.The Commish said:
I do have a problem with a government mandate of some type of vaccine passport, too easy for government to abuse that.
I think the lgbq thing is that the pulse survivors were getting state assistance for mental health issues caused by the shooting. As they should imo. Anyone affected by that event should. The article I read stated that he approved of the state ending that assistance. I'm going to have to check into that more. Hard for me to believe that he would do that.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Add this to "DeSantis is banning masks" as something that's just factually untrue but seems to be driving a certain level of anger.The Commish said:
Punxsutawney Phil
Footballguy
54% of adults approve masking kids. This is my point. Half the people don't care, and everywhere else nobody is wearing mask. Have you dropped your kids off at school recently? A good majority of the kids aren't even wearing them right, and none are N95. How much is this selective enforcement helping? It doesn't sound like there have been more cases at the charter schools that aren't requiring mask.ignatiusjreilly said:
The Commish
Footballguy
You likely need to talk to those making the "banning masks" claim about those. It seems you're reading a TON into peoples' posts which seems uncharacteristic. The assertion was that "nothing was going to stop Delta". To which I responded that we (collective societal we as I pointed out later) shouldn't have provided opportunity for Delta to exist in the first place. There's no anger whatsoever and has nothing to do with DeSantis. The collective we are responsible for (by our actions/inactions) each and very opportunity for variants that comes to be. Not sure what you take issue with in that statement, but if not us hosts, then who is responsible?
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The Commish
Footballguy
He cut the couple hundred grand out of the multi-billion dollar budget for those folks. And I know what you don't have a problem with, but we're talking about what the Governor is doing/attempting to do in this state which is restrict businesses from even asking for proof of vaccination (see the cruise line lawsuit active, right now). I'm with you on the "passport" thing. It just creates a diversion to muddy the waters around businesses being allowed to do what they feel is right for them. It's a distraction that doesn't need to be there IMO.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Yep. If anything this pandemic has really shown us those who care not for anyone but themselves. The selfishness and crudeness Americans have been lambasted for and mocked for over the last century is on full display. It’s sickening. It’s sad. It damages my pride in my country. It’s totally expected though.2Squirrels1Nut said:
djmich
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
It existing in the first place. Once it was here, the only thing that stops it (and this is true for any variant we've seen so far) is staying away from each other and washing our hands religiously. Vaccines will protect from severe illness and greatly slow the spread, but won't stop the spread completely.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
SARS-CoV-2 is a virus. Viruses mutate. That's totally normal. "We" didn't do anything to cause the delta variant. It's just unfortunate that a more contagious variant happened to emerge before we could get vaccines going.
Sometimes bad things just happen and nobody is to blame. Delta belongs to that category of things.
Punxsutawney Phil
Footballguy
So lock us down like China? I'd be more frightened by the economic disaster that would cause than catching coronavirus.
Punxsutawney Phil
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
First of all, social distancing and had-washing (??) was never going to stop the delta variant. Those things didn't stop the alpha variant either. They're nice, easy measures that can slow down a virus, and they make sense on an individual level, but delta was going to rip through the population at some point anyway. No country anywhere has suppressed any version of covid-19 just with social distancing and hygiene.
Second, your last sentence is correct but the way you're framing it is mistaken. Because vaccines protect against severe illness, we should stop worry about spread. I mean, obviously we shouldn't pump coronavirus directly into our HVAC systems or anything like that, but a vaccinated population should be approximately as worried about covid-19 case counts as we are about influenza case counts, which is to say not at all.
The Commish
Footballguy
We have control over how many opportunities the viruses have to mutate. I didn't say we caused anything. I said we provided it ample opportunity, which is all it needs. We are responsible for providing those opportunities. Whether it's by not being socially aware or refusing vaccines, take your pick. Delta is thriving. The longer it thrives, the more opportunity we provide for mutations.
The Commish
Footballguy
I'm on board with this once everyone has access to vaccines, until then I will be considerate towards others with regard to spreading it to those who can't get them.
The Commish
Footballguy
The choice was, and always has been to take a beating early and recover or try and survive thousands of paper cuts. Our economy is a consumption based economy and we are now facing a long, uphill battle. We are "ready" to be "open" but those we purchase from aren't and those who buy what little bit we produce aren't either. That likely doesn't change much at all if we chose early on to lock down for 6-8 weeks.
I have two professor friends living close to the South China sea who have been back to "normal" since Dec 2020. They worry not about masks, distancing, etc. Kids are back in school (since August 2020). So I guess it depends on what your goal is.
Many Asian counties have mitigated the effect of the Delta variant - and with much lower use of vaccines than the USA. Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, S Korea. And they are more densely populated than the USA. I guess it's hygiene, social distancing and masking. It's built into their culture.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
No, we aren't. The delta variant emerged in India, before vaccines were widely available. There is not a thing anybody anywhere could have done to prevent its emergence and spread. (Edit: I hope nobody here thinks that the people of India are somehow responsible for delta. Assuming you don't hold them responsible -- you certainly shouldn't -- then I don't see why you would hold Americans responsible).
People should definitely get vaccinated. Otherwise, it's important to acknowledge that you and I actually have very little agency here. If covid becomes endemic, which seems very likely right now, we're both going to become infected at some point in our lives. That's not because we did anything wrong or were unvirtuous or anything like that. We've both been infected with human rhinovirus more times than we even know, and neither of us thinks that that represents some kind of personal failure or a failure of society or anything like that. People get sick. So get vaccinated, control what you can control, and don't worry about stuff that's outside of your control.
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So what's happening in Fla right now is normal and to be expected as you understand ?
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
People in Florida -- and elsewhere -- should get vaccinated. If folks were vaccinated, Florida wouldn't have full hospitals.
But if every single person in Florida had gotten vaccinated on the very first day of eligibility, delta would still be spreading. It's just that it wouldn't spread as fast, and people who get infected would just experience cold-like symptoms. We can live with that kind of illness. Not a big deal.
The Commish
Footballguy
Again....I think this is the third time now? "We" being societal or human beings in general. Not "Americans". You want to pretend that Delta was something that was going to happen no matter what we did. I don't believe that's true. Delta exists because we provided opportunity for previous variants to mutate. If we'd done a better job of reducing those opportunities, we are inherently doing a better job of preventing that variant as well. Do we remove all possibility? Of course not. It only takes one host for that change to occur. However, I'll take a 50% chance of a worse variant over a 85-90% chance of a worse variant any day.
The bold is what I preach over and over again to those around me (especially my wife), but again, it's easier said than done when those you are responsible for don't have access to a vaccine. This isn't a "hey if I do the right thing, things will be fine" scenario. We are reliant on each other to get out of this mess.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
There's nothing that India could have done to prevent delta from emerging. As long as Indians existed -- I'm glad they exist, because India seems like a pretty cool place -- they were always going to provide reservoirs for the virus to live and mutate.
I understand exactly what you're arguing. It's just factually wrong, is all.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Unfortunately, large swaths of the developing world are going to provide fertile ground for new variants until we get vaccines to those areas. I think the US should be acting more aggressively to vaccinate the rest of the world. Doing so is strongly in our national interest and provides a great ROI both in terms of humanitarianism and national security. It's a no-brainer IMO.
It's still going to take quite a while for global vaccination to take place, even if we were moving heaven and earth to make it happen. You guys are just going to have to live with the background risk of "new variant" for a while yet. That's out of anyone's hands.
It's still going to take quite a while for global vaccination to take place, even if we were moving heaven and earth to make it happen. You guys are just going to have to live with the background risk of "new variant" for a while yet. That's out of anyone's hands.
djmich
Footballguy
Agree with your trail of posts here.
There are a lot of things we can do and should do. Vaccination is one of them and it is pretty simple. But the idea that it is going to stop the virus and that things like masking or something other than becoming cockroaches was going to work is flat out wrong.
Israel
The Commish
Footballguy
I have yet to make an argument with respect to prevention, but you keep saying it. I'm saying our responsibility is to reduce opportunity. Why that is "factually wrong" I'm not sure, but it seems like we're talking about two different things anyway, so I'm not really sure what your protest is with the argument. Apologies if it's not clear, but I'm really not sure how to say it any differently.
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djmich
Footballguy
Maybe I'm really missing the distinction in what you are saying. I thought you were saying we should have prevented it.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Getting back to an earlier discussion with @djmich (and also to Florida politics, which is after all the point of the thread), this tweet perfectly encapsulates my frustration with DeSantis, and why trying to impose a pro-vax/anti-vax binary on him is incomplete:
To paraphrase a line that Andrew Gillum used against him in the 2018 campaign, I'm not saying DeSantis is an anti-vaxxer, I'm saying the anti-vaxxers think he's an anti-vaxxer. And that appears to be very much his intention.
As this doctor points out, MAs are not for people "at risk of" Covid-19, they're for people who have already been infected. Why wouldn't DeSantis just say, "If you're at risk, get the vaccine. If you've already tested positive, go to one of these treatment centers"? I could (and have) speculated on potential reasons, but I honestly don't know. Whatever it is, it's just weird, and certainly lends credence to the theory that he's downplaying the vaccine for political purposes.
To paraphrase a line that Andrew Gillum used against him in the 2018 campaign, I'm not saying DeSantis is an anti-vaxxer, I'm saying the anti-vaxxers think he's an anti-vaxxer. And that appears to be very much his intention.
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