For the love of God, do not elect Hilary Clinton next election. (1 Viewer)

[Rove!]

I honestly don't get people who think Obama is such a horrible President. At worst he's been mediocre, and best he's been above average. He certainly hasnt been terrible in any way that I can see. I'm not a fan of his economic philiosophy, but what has he done that's been a complete catastrophe?

The 1930's called and they want his economic policies back

 

[Koya]

I honestly don't get people who think Obama is such a horrible President. At worst he's been mediocre, and best he's been above average. He certainly hasnt been terrible in any way that I can see. I'm not a fan of his economic philiosophy, but what has he done that's been a complete catastrophe?

He's been disappointing. Best way I can put it. Underwhelming perhaps, and disappointing.

There were high hopes on a lot of levels. From support for equal rights for gays to the disaster that is the NSA, there are some gaping holes in the presidential resume. In addition, the overwhelming focus on healthcare at a time when we still have serious economic issues and long term we need to protect our economic and security related future, was suspect. In terms of political strategy, it seems foolhardy, at best. Could / will cost them in November.

Unless the Dem party is so ahead of things that they are willing to take the usual midterm hit to better position themselves for '16... but that seems to be giving them an AWFUL lot of credit.

 

[humpback]

Obama has been a great president. This thread is dumb. We should be so lucky to have 8 more years of this prosperity and freedom.

Stock markets have been on fire, indices setting records.

Unemployment has dropped.

Weed is legal!

Gays can marry!

Bin Laden is dead!

Iraq war is over!

All Americans will have access to healthcare!

Religious fundies have very little power and have been drowned out finally.

Seriously, Obama has been awesome. It eats the right up how successful he has been. Black man did it...kills them. #scoreboard

 

[NutterButter]

Whoever isn't doing far better now than when Obama took office is doing it wrong. Thank you president obama for cleaning up your predecessor's mess.

 

[datonn]

I honestly don't get people who think Obama is such a horrible President. At worst he's been mediocre, and best he's been above average. He certainly hasnt been terrible in any way that I can see. I'm not a fan of his economic philiosophy, but what has he done that's been a complete catastrophe?

The 1930's called and they want his economic policies back

If you're not way better off than you were before he was elected, than you're the one doing it wrong. When you're the boss, you take the credit when things go well and take the fall when things go poorly and things are going pretty darn well.

^ Yep. The five best years of my life (financially) were 2013, 2012, 2010, 2011, and 2009. Folks will say it's a coincidence. But if it had been the five worst years of my career? The same people would have said it's all Obama's fault.

Truth is, it probably has little to do with anything that's been happening in DC. But for all the people who have been running around the past six years screaming "the sky is falling, the SKY IS FALLING!!!," they likely haven't been impacted much (directly) by what has been happening in DC either. Hard-### work and spending time EVERY DAY expanding one's knowledge, wisdom and empathy will weather just about any storm from the Left or the Right that forms on the horizon.

I think the stock market's due for another healthy dip in the next 9-15 months, and we're past-due for some major earthquakes and other natural disasters going down [mrham]. But life's been great since January 2009...and I expect it to continue to improve through at least January 2017.

 

[timschochet]

I honestly don't get people who think Obama is such a horrible President. At worst he's been mediocre, and best he's been above average. He certainly hasnt been terrible in any way that I can see. I'm not a fan of his economic philiosophy, but what has he done that's been a complete catastrophe?

He's been disappointing. Best way I can put it. Underwhelming perhaps, and disappointing.

There were high hopes on a lot of levels. From support for equal rights for gays to the disaster that is the NSA, there are some gaping holes in the presidential resume. In addition, the overwhelming focus on healthcare at a time when we still have serious economic issues and long term we need to protect our economic and security related future, was suspect. In terms of political strategy, it seems foolhardy, at best. Could / will cost them in November.

Unless the Dem party is so ahead of things that they are willing to take the usual midterm hit to better position themselves for '16... but that seems to be giving them an AWFUL lot of credit.

I know what you and other progressives wanted. But given the make up of the country (which is center- not center right, nor center left, but center) you're not going to get it- not with Obama or anyone else. Maybe he would like to take the country farther to the left, but he can't. He simply doesn't have the votes to do it and never had. Also, the fact that he was saddled with an economic crisis really hampered his Presidency from the get go, and still does.

As far as healthcare goes, the Democrats have been looking for some kind of reform for decades. Finally they had a President, control of the House and Senate, all at the same time, so they did their best to achieve what they could, with the "blue dog" Dems preventing coming close to single payer. You're correct that given the economic crisis it wasn't the best time politically, but it's hard to think that they would have another chance either. I don't like Obamacare much, but I give Obama credit for pushing it through. For all Bill Clinton's skills as a politician, he couldn't manage it. Obama did.

My views on the NSA seem to be isolated in this forum from both progressives and conservatives here, so I won't comment further, except to say that I don't believe any President, either Democrat or Republican, would have performed differently with regard to the NSA.

 

[Scoresman]

I would have sex with Sarah Palin.

 

[General Malaise]

Obama has been a great president. This thread is dumb. We should be so lucky to have 8 more years of this prosperity and freedom.

> Is this a joke? America has never been less free. NSA spying, IRS used as a weapon, Independet studies showing religious freedom at an all-time loe

Stock markets have been on fire, indices setting records.

Unemployment has dropped.

> not really we have less jobs and the ponly the headline number has dropped due to people dropping out of the labor forcr

Weed is legal!

> nothing to do with Obama

Gays can marry!

> in spite of Obama's oppositionj

Bin Laden is dead!

> no thanks to Obama

Iraq war is over!

> Thanks to the surge

All Americans will have access to healthcare!

> Millions have actually lost coverage

Religious fundies have very little power and have been drowned out finally.

> nothing to do with Obama

Seriously, Obama has been awesome. It eats the right up how successful he has been. Black man did it...kills them. #scoreboard

The fact that there are peopel who believe what you posted shows how little people pay attention to what's actually happening.

You should lighten up and try some legal weed....enjoy this great country we live in now thanks to Obama.

On yeah....gays can now be open in the military! Thanks Obama!

This silly rhetoric that Obama was against gay marriage before his first election, so what? Did he stop it from happening? No? Shut up. He hasn't stopped legal weed or poker either. He's let us enjoy the freedoms! He's awesome. Maybe he was against years ago, he is on the right side now.

George Bush stopped stem cell research after talking to a pope who covered up child rape. Tell me what Obama did that rivals that sort of stupid evil? You can't.

 

[General Malaise]

Remember when all the right wing Bush lovers were behind the Patriot Act and any concerns about spying on us were met with 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear'? I remember that. Where is that rhetoric now vis a vis the NSA?

 

[DrJ]

Obama's approval ratings are what, 2%? So there's probably like 50 other people as dumb as GM.

 

[Daywalker]

I honestly don't get people who think Obama is such a horrible President. At worst he's been mediocre, and best he's been above average. He certainly hasnt been terrible in any way that I can see. I'm not a fan of his economic philiosophy, but what has he done that's been a complete catastrophe?

He's been disappointing. Best way I can put it. Underwhelming perhaps, and disappointing.

There were high hopes on a lot of levels. From support for equal rights for gays to the disaster that is the NSA, there are some gaping holes in the presidential resume. In addition, the overwhelming focus on healthcare at a time when we still have serious economic issues and long term we need to protect our economic and security related future, was suspect. In terms of political strategy, it seems foolhardy, at best. Could / will cost them in November.

Unless the Dem party is so ahead of things that they are willing to take the usual midterm hit to better position themselves for '16... but that seems to be giving them an AWFUL lot of credit.

In what respect has our security suffered? Economically? Not enough but what alternative would you have rolled the dice with? Jobs were getting squeezed regardless but if you have money in the market you got to be very happy. So jobs are lagging. No one is solving that problem. It will continue to be a problem.

Healthcare? That was the time to strike. Could not put it off another decade. Six months in, with a disastrous start, think the dem's are breathing a sigh of relief as opposed to where this could have headed. Don't even see the fervor now against the ACA really. Wait as few years go by and people realize the benefits. Then try campaigning to take them away.

 

[rockaction]

Remember when all the right wing Bush lovers were behind the Patriot Act and any concerns about spying on us were met with 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear'? I remember that. Where is that rhetoric now vis a vis the NSA?

Please, guys like Charles Murray and the folks at reason have been writing about the NSA and the Patriot Act both for about ten years now. And that's part of the reason some on the libertarian right/left supported Obama -- it wasn't to extend or further the policy; they believed he'd end it.

Whoops. Now he defends it.

This administration has essentially extended G.W.'s policies on everything except for DOMA and health care. If you like either, then so be it. But this has been as bad as an administration as the last.

Lies, lies, lies, from both sides.

 

[rockaction]

Look, forget Obama. Can we think of another example of the most odious sentiment to come from a unified Democratic executive and and presidency than this?

This is the most condescending, arrogant, hypocritical ("we'll have everything transparent" - paraphrased), stupid statement I've heard since Al Haig thought he was President for twenty minutes or so. Just disgusting. I'd consider myself neither left nor right when hearing this. Anyone with better examples, step forward and let's all laugh and have a beer.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/11/17/david_gregory_asks_pelosi_about_pass_the_bill_so_you_can_find_out_whats_in_it_comment.html

 

[fantasycurse42]

Personally, I'd vote for my local Starbuck barista as president over anything they've put on the ballot in the last 15 years (republican or democrat, they both suck)

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

What happened to Em? I was hoping for some in-depth analysis and thought-provoking rebuttal to some of the opinions expressed in his thread.

 

[NutterButter]

Remember when all the right wing Bush lovers were behind the Patriot Act and any concerns about spying on us were met with 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear'? I remember that. Where is that rhetoric now vis a vis the NSA?

Oh, I remember GM. Those were some good times in American history. If you disagreed with government policy, you were branded as un-partriotic.

 

[Rove!]

Whoever isn't doing far better now than when Obama took office is doing it wrong. Thank you president obama for cleaning up your predecessor's mess.

but he hasn't

He took office on pecipice of an Arb Spring and that fell apart

The economy still sucks and the recovery bounce that always comes after a recession was historically muted. The non-partisan CBO even says that the stimulus was a failure

 

[Todd Andrews]

Vote against the KooKs and America wins again.

 

[Rove!]

Vote against the KooKs and America wins again.

Are you planning to stay home election day, then?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Wait... Republicans are complaining that Obama continued and/or expanded many of Bush's policies (economy, NSA, drone war)? You'd think they'd be ecstatic -- they won half a loaf even though Romney got destroyed.

 

[cstu]

Whoever isn't doing far better now than when Obama took office is doing it wrong. Thank you president obama for cleaning up your predecessor's mess.

but he hasn't

He took office on pecipice of an Arb Spring and that fell apart

The economy still sucks and the recovery bounce that always comes after a recession was historically muted. The non-partisan CBO even says that the stimulus was a failure

Bush's stimulus too or only the one by a Democrat?

 

[rockaction]

Vote against the KooKs and America wins again.

Stop trying to make KooK happen. It's not happening.

You just sort of look like a jackass.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

Obama has been a great president. This thread is dumb. We should be so lucky to have 8 more years of this prosperity and freedom.

> Is this a joke? America has never been less free. NSA spying, IRS used as a weapon, Independet studies showing religious freedom at an all-time loe

Ignoring the typos, I'd like to hear more about this all time low of religious freedom

 

[cstu]

Remember when all the right wing Bush lovers were behind the Patriot Act and any concerns about spying on us were met with 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear'? I remember that. Where is that rhetoric now vis a vis the NSA?

Please, guys like Charles Murray and the folks at reason have been writing about the NSA and the Patriot Act both for about ten years now. And that's part of the reason some on the libertarian right/left supported Obama -- it wasn't to extend or further the policy; they believed he'd end it.

Whoops. Now he defends it.

This administration has essentially extended G.W.'s policies on everything except for DOMA and health care. If you like either, then so be it. But this has been as bad as an administration as the last.

Lies, lies, lies, from both sides.

Many people who were anti-Patriot Act and voted for Obama have turned on him regarding the NSA spying.

The bolded is ridiculous. Most of the knocks against Obama have been petty - economy has not recovered 'enough', Benghazi, not closing Guantanamo, use of drones, etc.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Vote against the KooKs and America wins again.

Stop trying to make KooK happen. It's not happening.

You just sort of look like a jackass.

It happened. You are way late.

 

[rockaction]

Obama has been a great president. This thread is dumb. We should be so lucky to have 8 more years of this prosperity and freedom.

> Is this a joke? America has never been less free. NSA spying, IRS used as a weapon, Independet studies showing religious freedom at an all-time loe

Ignoring the typos, I'd like to hear more about this all time low of religious freedom

Aside from school prayer and the whittling away of public displays of religion since 1789, yes, it probably is at an all-time low.

This in no way determines whether I agree with it, though I'm pretty sure a strict reading of the Constitution would say it is.

 

[cstu]

Look, forget Obama. Can we think of another example of the most odious sentiment to come from a unified Democratic executive and and presidency than this?

This is the most condescending, arrogant, hypocritical ("we'll have everything transparent" - paraphrased), stupid statement I've heard since Al Haig thought he was President for twenty minutes or so. Just disgusting. I'd consider myself neither left nor right when hearing this. Anyone with better examples, step forward and let's all laugh and have a beer.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/11/17/david_gregory_asks_pelosi_about_pass_the_bill_so_you_can_find_out_whats_in_it_comment.html

Democrats knew what they wanted and got it done. Better to push a bill through and fix it later than not get it passed at all.

The big attack on Democrats is that they always hem and haw over doing anything yet when they start acting like Republicans they get attacked by Republicans over it.

 

[cstu]

Obama has been a great president. This thread is dumb. We should be so lucky to have 8 more years of this prosperity and freedom.

> Is this a joke? America has never been less free. NSA spying, IRS used as a weapon, Independet studies showing religious freedom at an all-time loe

Ignoring the typos, I'd like to hear more about this all time low of religious freedom

Aside from school prayer and the whittling away of public displays of religion since 1789, yes, it probably is at an all-time low.

This in no way determines whether I agree with it, though I'm pretty sure a strict reading of the Constitution would say it is.

School prayer - anyone can pray to anything they want in school

Public displays - separation of church and state means not having one religion promoted on public property

What else is infringing on your religious freedom?

 

[fatness]

Obama has been a great president. This thread is dumb. We should be so lucky to have 8 more years of this prosperity and freedom.

> Is this a joke? America has never been less free. NSA spying, IRS used as a weapon, Independet studies showing religious freedom at an all-time loe

Ignoring the typos, I'd like to hear more about this all time low of religious freedom

Aside from school prayer and the whittling away of public displays of religion since 1789, yes, it probably is at an all-time low.

This in no way determines whether I agree with it, though I'm pretty sure a strict reading of the Constitution would say it is.

It's terrible how Christians have been driven out of politics.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Obama has been a great president. This thread is dumb. We should be so lucky to have 8 more years of this prosperity and freedom.

> Is this a joke? America has never been less free. NSA spying, IRS used as a weapon, Independet studies showing religious freedom at an all-time loe

Ignoring the typos, I'd like to hear more about this all time low of religious freedom

Aside from school prayer and the whittling away of public displays of religion since 1789, yes, it probably is at an all-time low.

This in no way determines whether I agree with it, though I'm pretty sure a strict reading of the Constitution would say it is.

School prayer - anyone can pray to anything they want in school

Public displays - separation of church and state means not having one religion promoted on public property

What else is infringing on your religious freedom?

People wont accept our bigotry and hatred!!

 

[rockaction]

Obama has been a great president. This thread is dumb. We should be so lucky to have 8 more years of this prosperity and freedom.

> Is this a joke? America has never been less free. NSA spying, IRS used as a weapon, Independet studies showing religious freedom at an all-time loe

Ignoring the typos, I'd like to hear more about this all time low of religious freedom

Aside from school prayer and the whittling away of public displays of religion since 1789, yes, it probably is at an all-time low.

This in no way determines whether I agree with it, though I'm pretty sure a strict reading of the Constitution would say it is.

School prayer - anyone can pray to anything they want in school

Public displays - separation of church and state means not having one religion promoted on public property

What else is infringing on your religious freedom?

People wont accept our bigotry and hatred!!

IT'S CALLED INCORPORATION AND FEDERALISM, SHAWN!!!

That's my new schtick when people can't understand the obvious. Kind of like...KooKs.

eta* I also understand BD did it ironically, but it so fits.

 

[bigbottom]

Obama has been a great president. This thread is dumb. We should be so lucky to have 8 more years of this prosperity and freedom.

> Is this a joke? America has never been less free. NSA spying, IRS used as a weapon, Independet studies showing religious freedom at an all-time loe

Ignoring the typos, I'd like to hear more about this all time low of religious freedom

Aside from school prayer and the whittling away of public displays of religion since 1789, yes, it probably is at an all-time low.

I'm a little confused by your phrasing and the use of "aside from." Are you saying that school prayer and the whittling away of public displays of religion are examples of religious freedom, or examples of religious freedom being at an all time low. If the latter, in what way do your examples represent infringements on religious freedom generally? I could definitely see an argument that public religious expression may be at an all time low, but I wouldn't necessarily equate the decline in public expression (of one particular brand of religion) with a decline in religious freedom generally.

 

[cstu]

Whoever isn't doing far better now than when Obama took office is doing it wrong. Thank you president obama for cleaning up your predecessor's mess.

but he hasn't

He took office on pecipice of an Arb Spring and that fell apart

The economy still sucks and the recovery bounce that always comes after a recession was historically muted. The non-partisan CBO even says that the stimulus was a failure

Egypt - elected a President who made attempts to become dictator. He was overthrown by the military and elections will be held in May. It's concerning that a former military leader is the favorite to become their next President and there may not be fair elections but it's not over yet.

Tunisia - now has a Prime Minister instead of a dictator.

Libya - despite low voter turnout, they have a democratically elected President and are working on a Constitution instead of being controlled by a dictator.

Syria - civil war ongoing, but it appears the rebels are going to lose.

 

[RCon]

I honestly don't get people who think Obama is such a horrible President. At worst he's been mediocre, and best he's been above average. He certainly hasnt been terrible in any way that I can see. I'm not a fan of his economic philiosophy, but what has he done that's been a complete catastrophe?

Well, his economic philosophy has been pretty bad. His record on transparency and civil liberty is a D-, at best. It's not "complete catastrophe", but he's got quite a ways to go to get all the way up to mediocre.

 

[rockaction]

Obama has been a great president. This thread is dumb. We should be so lucky to have 8 more years of this prosperity and freedom.

> Is this a joke? America has never been less free. NSA spying, IRS used as a weapon, Independet studies showing religious freedom at an all-time loe

Ignoring the typos, I'd like to hear more about this all time low of religious freedom

Aside from school prayer and the whittling away of public displays of religion since 1789, yes, it probably is at an all-time low.

I'm a little confused by your phrasing and the use of "aside from." Are you saying that school prayer and the whittling away of public displays of religion are examples of religious freedom, or examples of religious freedom being at an all time low. If the latter, in what way do your examples represent infringements on religious freedom generally? I could definitely see an argument that public religious expression may be at an all time low, but I wouldn't necessarily equate the decline in public expression (of one particular brand of religion) with a decline in religious freedom generally.

The latter. I'm talking about public displays of religion, which were considered par for the course as expressions of religious freedom, expressed through a majoritarian concept of federalism.

In other words, I'm talking about the incorporation of the First Amendment to the states, who were generally considered their own keepers of religious expression, which included school prayer until recently in American history.

Whether this is good or bad, one can be the judge of. And your point is noted, that religious freedom and dissent may have benefitted from both incorporation and a lack of federalism. But the argument was flowing from a point of view that somehow religious Christians have more to say in the public sphere than ever. They don't. They're very limited in terms of power, other than PACs and social influence. And the PACs may have even arisen from this erosion of majoritarian, localized sentiments. Some say good, some say bad. I say, "Bah. There's a trade-off."

I would recommend reading both Walter Berns and Herbert J. Storing to get a better understanding of both concepts should one be interested.

Not you, BB, you've probably got it dialed.

 

[cstu]

The latter. I'm talking about public displays of religion, which were considered par for the course as expressions of religious freedom, expressed through a majoritarian concept of federalism.

In other words, I'm talking about the incorporation of the First Amendment to the states, who were generally considered their own keepers of religious expression, which included school prayer until recently in American history.

Whether this is good or bad, one can be the judge of. And your point is noted, that religious freedom and dissent may have benefitted from both incorporation and a lack of federalism. But the argument was flowing from a point of view that somehow religious Christians have more to say in the public sphere than ever. They don't. They're very limited in terms of power, other than PACs and social influence. And the PACs may have even arisen from this erosion of majoritarian, localized sentiments. Some say good, some say bad. I say, "Bah. There's a trade-off."

I would recommend reading both Walter Berns and Herbert J. Storing to get a better understanding of both concepts should one be interested.

Not you, BB, you've probably got it dialed.

So you're not a big believer in the concept of separation of church and state?

Are you fine with other religions being given the same freedom to make displays on public property as your religion?

 

[rockaction]

The latter. I'm talking about public displays of religion, which were considered par for the course as expressions of religious freedom, expressed through a majoritarian concept of federalism.

In other words, I'm talking about the incorporation of the First Amendment to the states, who were generally considered their own keepers of religious expression, which included school prayer until recently in American history.

Whether this is good or bad, one can be the judge of. And your point is noted, that religious freedom and dissent may have benefitted from both incorporation and a lack of federalism. But the argument was flowing from a point of view that somehow religious Christians have more to say in the public sphere than ever. They don't. They're very limited in terms of power, other than PACs and social influence. And the PACs may have even arisen from this erosion of majoritarian, localized sentiments. Some say good, some say bad. I say, "Bah. There's a trade-off."

I would recommend reading both Walter Berns and Herbert J. Storing to get a better understanding of both concepts should one be interested.

Not you, BB, you've probably got it dialed.

So you're not a big believer in the concept of separation of church and state?

Are you fine with other religions being given the same freedom to make displays on public property as your religion?

No, I am. But the Constitution Bill of Rights was only supposed to be applied to the federal government, and it was probably more limited than we think today.

The states generally had the right to determine what the separation was, and did so accordingly. That's the point I'm making. I'd rather live in this world, today, frankly. But it's certainly a deviation from the original intentions of even the BoR, IMO.

Plus, there's a trade-off. At the end of school prayer and ACLU suits, you have the Pat Robertsons and Ralph Reeds of the world seeking political influence in matters other than those that deal with religious expression.

eta* Gut reaction, too: a non-denominational prayer at a graduation seems silly to ban, at least to me. That's as personal as I get. I'm agnostic. Never even stood for the Pledge. Don't care for oaths, public displays of fealty, etc.

 

[Rove!]

Obama has been a great president. This thread is dumb. We should be so lucky to have 8 more years of this prosperity and freedom.

> Is this a joke? America has never been less free. NSA spying, IRS used as a weapon, Independet studies showing religious freedom at an all-time loe

Ignoring the typos, I'd like to hear more about this all time low of religious freedom

http://www.pewforum.org/2014/01/14/religious-hostilities-reach-six-year-high/

 

[General Malaise]

Obama's approval ratings are what, 2%? So there's probably like 50 other people as dumb as GM.

8 years of glory, dbag. Winning!

 

[fatness]

Obama has been a great president. This thread is dumb. We should be so lucky to have 8 more years of this prosperity and freedom.

> Is this a joke? America has never been less free. NSA spying, IRS used as a weapon, Independet studies showing religious freedom at an all-time loe

Ignoring the typos, I'd like to hear more about this all time low of religious freedom

http://www.pewforum.org/2014/01/14/religious-hostilities-reach-six-year-high/

That's quite a topic switch there. You're responding to talk about religious freedom in America, with an article that's talking about this:

A third (33%) of the 198 countries and territories included in the study had high religious hostilities in 2012, up from 29% in 2011 and 20% as of mid-2007.

 

[timschochet]

I honestly don't get people who think Obama is such a horrible President. At worst he's been mediocre, and best he's been above average. He certainly hasnt been terrible in any way that I can see. I'm not a fan of his economic philiosophy, but what has he done that's been a complete catastrophe?

Well, his economic philosophy has been pretty bad. His record on transparency and civil liberty is a D-, at best. It's not "complete catastrophe", but he's got quite a ways to go to get all the way up to mediocre.

I just strongly disagree with this. Abraham Lincoln and FDR would receive Fs for transparency and civil liberties, and they were probably our two greatest Presidents. Obama has done nothing to compare. I know you hate the whole NSA thing, but that has little to do with Obama- any Presidrnt would have done the same.

 

[General Malaise]

Remember when all the right wing Bush lovers were behind the Patriot Act and any concerns about spying on us were met with 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear'? I remember that. Where is that rhetoric now vis a vis the NSA?

Please, guys like Charles Murray and the folks at reason have been writing about the NSA and the Patriot Act both for about ten years now. And that's part of the reason some on the libertarian right/left supported Obama -- it wasn't to extend or further the policy; they believed he'd end it.

Whoops. Now he defends it.

This administration has essentially extended G.W.'s policies on everything except for DOMA and health care. If you like either, then so be it. But this has been as bad as an administration as the last.

Lies, lies, lies, from both sides.

OK yeah....Home prices! Mine has not only completely recovered but is now at an all time high! Obama rocks!

 

[Slapdash]

Remember when all the right wing Bush lovers were behind the Patriot Act and any concerns about spying on us were met with 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear'? I remember that. Where is that rhetoric now vis a vis the NSA?

Please, guys like Charles Murray and the folks at reason have been writing about the NSA and the Patriot Act both for about ten years now. And that's part of the reason some on the libertarian right/left supported Obama -- it wasn't to extend or further the policy; they believed he'd end it.

Whoops. Now he defends it.

This administration has essentially extended G.W.'s policies on everything except for DOMA and health care. If you like either, then so be it. But this has been as bad as an administration as the last.

Lies, lies, lies, from both sides.

This has little to do with Bush or Obama themselves. The differences in policy between both parties in recent years is only marginal and rhetorical.

 

[cstu]

The latter. I'm talking about public displays of religion, which were considered par for the course as expressions of religious freedom, expressed through a majoritarian concept of federalism.

In other words, I'm talking about the incorporation of the First Amendment to the states, who were generally considered their own keepers of religious expression, which included school prayer until recently in American history.

Whether this is good or bad, one can be the judge of. And your point is noted, that religious freedom and dissent may have benefitted from both incorporation and a lack of federalism. But the argument was flowing from a point of view that somehow religious Christians have more to say in the public sphere than ever. They don't. They're very limited in terms of power, other than PACs and social influence. And the PACs may have even arisen from this erosion of majoritarian, localized sentiments. Some say good, some say bad. I say, "Bah. There's a trade-off."

I would recommend reading both Walter Berns and Herbert J. Storing to get a better understanding of both concepts should one be interested.

Not you, BB, you've probably got it dialed.

So you're not a big believer in the concept of separation of church and state?

Are you fine with other religions being given the same freedom to make displays on public property as your religion?

No, I am. But the Constitution Bill of Rights was only supposed to be applied to the federal government, and it was probably more limited than we think today.

The states generally had the right to determine what the separation was, and did so accordingly. That's the point I'm making. I'd rather live in this world, today, frankly. But it's certainly a deviation from the original intentions of even the BoR, IMO.

Plus, there's a trade-off. At the end of school prayer and ACLU suits, you have the Pat Robertsons and Ralph Reeds of the world seeking political influence in matters other than those that deal with religious expression.

eta* Gut reaction, too: a non-denominational prayer at a graduation seems silly to ban, at least to me. That's as personal as I get. I'm agnostic. Never even stood for the Pledge. Don't care for oaths, public displays of fealty, etc.

I believe separation of church and state is an important concept at all government levels. It's an expansion of its original intent but for religious freedom to be taken seriously it needs to be applied at the state and local levels as well. Otherwise we could end up things like this being enforced:

Arkansas State Constitution, Article 19 Section 1 ("Miscellaneous Provisions")

No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court.

I'm not against a non-denominational prayer but I don't think a ban on it infringes on religious freedom.

 

[General Malaise]

Whoever isn't doing far better now than when Obama took office is doing it wrong. Thank you president obama for cleaning up your predecessor's mess.

but he hasn't

He took office on pecipice of an Arb Spring and that fell apart

The economy still sucks and the recovery bounce that always comes after a recession was historically muted. The non-partisan CBO even says that the stimulus was a failure

The economy is great. My house has never been worth more, my portfolios are booming, my job is secure my wife is employed and oh yeah....Obama saved the auto industry! Life is great. Go smoke some legal weed and play outside, bitter man. Its a wonderful word, safe from Bin Laden. Thanks Obama!

 

[Slapdash]

Whoever isn't doing far better now than when Obama took office is doing it wrong. Thank you president obama for cleaning up your predecessor's mess.

but he hasn't

He took office on pecipice of an Arb Spring and that fell apart

The economy still sucks and the recovery bounce that always comes after a recession was historically muted. The non-partisan CBO even says that the stimulus was a failure

The economy is great. My house has never been worth more, my portfolios are booming, my job is secure my wife is employed and oh yeah....Obama saved the auto industry! Life is great. Go smoke some legal weed and play outside, bitter man. Its a wonderful word, safe from Bin Laden. Thanks Obama!

What does Obama have to do with legalizing weed? In case you haven't noticed, a majority of the US can still be imprisoned for using it.

 

[General Malaise]

Bush staffed the justice department with religious fun dies from a lower tier law school than Hamline. Nothing Obama has done even approaches that sort of evil. Religion is finally out of politics. Thanks Obama!

 

[General Malaise]

Whoever isn't doing far better now than when Obama took office is doing it wrong. Thank you president obama for cleaning up your predecessor's mess.

but he hasn't

He took office on pecipice of an Arb Spring and that fell apart

The economy still sucks and the recovery bounce that always comes after a recession was historically muted. The non-partisan CBO even says that the stimulus was a failure

The economy is great. My house has never been worth more, my portfolios are booming, my job is secure my wife is employed and oh yeah....Obama saved the auto industry! Life is great. Go smoke some legal weed and play outside, bitter man. Its a wonderful word, safe from Bin Laden. Thanks Obama!

What does Obama have to do with legalizing weed? In case you haven't noticed, a majority of the US can still be imprisoned for using it.

Has he stopped it? No. Shut up. He's permissive of a free society that wants his weed. Go smoke some and enjoy this new freedom.

 

[General Malaise]

Lol at prison...

 

[rockaction]

The latter. I'm talking about public displays of religion, which were considered par for the course as expressions of religious freedom, expressed through a majoritarian concept of federalism.

In other words, I'm talking about the incorporation of the First Amendment to the states, who were generally considered their own keepers of religious expression, which included school prayer until recently in American history.

Whether this is good or bad, one can be the judge of. And your point is noted, that religious freedom and dissent may have benefitted from both incorporation and a lack of federalism. But the argument was flowing from a point of view that somehow religious Christians have more to say in the public sphere than ever. They don't. They're very limited in terms of power, other than PACs and social influence. And the PACs may have even arisen from this erosion of majoritarian, localized sentiments. Some say good, some say bad. I say, "Bah. There's a trade-off."

I would recommend reading both Walter Berns and Herbert J. Storing to get a better understanding of both concepts should one be interested.

Not you, BB, you've probably got it dialed.

So you're not a big believer in the concept of separation of church and state?

Are you fine with other religions being given the same freedom to make displays on public property as your religion?

No, I am. But the Constitution Bill of Rights was only supposed to be applied to the federal government, and it was probably more limited than we think today.

The states generally had the right to determine what the separation was, and did so accordingly. That's the point I'm making. I'd rather live in this world, today, frankly. But it's certainly a deviation from the original intentions of even the BoR, IMO.

Plus, there's a trade-off. At the end of school prayer and ACLU suits, you have the Pat Robertsons and Ralph Reeds of the world seeking political influence in matters other than those that deal with religious expression.

eta* Gut reaction, too: a non-denominational prayer at a graduation seems silly to ban, at least to me. That's as personal as I get. I'm agnostic. Never even stood for the Pledge. Don't care for oaths, public displays of fealty, etc.

I believe separation of church and state is an important concept at all government levels. It's an expansion of its original intent but for religious freedom to be taken seriously it needs to be applied at the state and local levels as well. Otherwise we could end up things like this being enforced:

Arkansas State Constitution, Article 19 Section 1 ("Miscellaneous Provisions")

No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court.

I'm not against a non-denominational prayer but I don't think a ban on it infringes on religious freedom.

So did Jefferson. I just think there's a value to a degree of localized majoritarianism within our federalist structure, which has been all but eroded.

Look, I hate stories of non-majorities having a specific religion shoved down their throat. So didn't whoever incorporated the First and extended it. But there's something to be said for free association and the public displays that flow therefrom. That's why I keep harping on the point of the political trade-off. If you didn't have complete obliteration of religion from the public sphere, there are no Pats and Ralphs at the federal level with all their $$$. Not only that, something about self-selection within local communities appeals to me.

Just the way I look at it.