Gaines Adams & Amobi Okoye (and a little Ted Ginn) (1 Viewer)

[Andy Dufresne]

I think I've been looking at this stuff too much and my propensity for getting bored has clouded me.

1. What's the farthest that Gaines Adams could drop? He's a great pass rusher, but is he complete enough to be top 10?

2. When the rubber meets the road, is an NFL GM really going to use a top 15 pick on a 19 year old, no matter how good he is?

I think my last mock, just for fun, is going to have Adams out side the top 10 and Okoye going to Denver at 21.

Here's how it shakes out:

1. Oakland - Russell

2. Tampa - CJ

3. Cleveland - Quinn

4. Detroit - Willis

5. Arizona - Thomas

6. Washington - Ginn

7. Minnesota - AD Peterson

8. Atlanta - Landry

9. Miami - ???

Defensive tackles never seem to go as high as most people predict. Is Okoye really going to go as high as top 10?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I think supply and demand is working against Adams. There are a lot of good/decent DE's in this draft and the dropoff from one to the next is not that great at all.

 

[JimboJim]

I think I've been looking at this stuff too much and my propensity for getting bored has clouded me.1. What's the farthest that Gaines Adams could drop? He's a great pass rusher, but is he complete enough to be top 10?2. When the rubber meets the road, is an NFL GM really going to use a top 15 pick on a 19 year old, no matter how good he is?I think my last mock, just for fun, is going to have Adams out side the top 10 and Okoye going to Denver at 21.Here's how it shakes out:1. Oakland - Russell2. Tampa - CJ3. Cleveland - Quinn4. Detroit - Willis5. Arizona - Thomas6. Washington - Ginn7. Minnesota - AD Peterson8. Atlanta - Landry9. Miami - ???Defensive tackles never seem to go as high as most people predict. Is Okoye really going to go as high as top 10?

Adams - I could see him drop; not because of the pot smoking, but because I could easily see both Anderson and Carriker being drafted before him. Adams size/bulk is questionable and I really have concerns whether or not he can hold up against NFL caliber tackles playing end.Okoye - Forget the age; he's a four year player, model citizen and has an NFL pedigree. Plus, I've read a lot saying he has the strength and frame to add another 20 pounds and play nose tackle if necessary. Plenty of tackles have gone high in recent years (Gerard Warren, Corey Simon, Kevin Williams, Dwayne Robertson, Ryan Sims, Marcus Stroud...)I am really interested in your projection of Ginn to Washington; please explain. Didn't they pay Randle-El big money last year to fill a speed receiver/return man role?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Adams - I could see him drop; not because of the pot smoking, but because I could easily see both Anderson and Carriker being drafted before him. Adams size/bulk is questionable and I really have concerns whether or not he can hold up against NFL caliber tackles playing end.

That's my thinking as well.

Okoye - Forget the age; he's a four year player, model citizen and has an NFL pedigree. Plus, I've read a lot saying he has the strength and frame to add another 20 pounds and play nose tackle if necessary. Plenty of tackles have gone high in recent years (Gerard Warren, Corey Simon, Kevin Williams, Dwayne Robertson, Ryan Sims, Marcus Stroud...)

I'm all over the place with Okoye, understanding the viewpoints of both supporters and detractors.

I am really interested in your projection of Ginn to Washington; please explain. Didn't they pay Randle-El big money last year to fill a speed receiver/return man role?

And neither Randle-El nor Lloyd worked out for them. Hopefully we can save the discussion for later, but I see it that if the Redskins only have one pick in the draft (5th rounders and higher don't count) they should take the guy that could affect all three phases of the game. Did you know that they had a private workout with him on Monday? And that they took Jason Campbell with them to do it? Waaaay to elaborate to just be a smokescreen.

 

[coolnerd]

I think supply and demand is working against Adams. There are a lot of good/decent DE's in this draft and the dropoff from one to the next is not that great at all.

Not convinced there are really a high number of dynamic speed rushers at DE. Lots of Strong side candidates imo, but only a couple of guys coming off edge with superior quickness and speed.

 

[Sabertooth]

Okoye - Forget the age; he's a four year player, model citizen and has an NFL pedigree. Plus, I've read a lot saying he has the strength and frame to add another 20 pounds and play nose tackle if necessary. Plenty of tackles have gone high in recent years (Gerard Warren, Corey Simon, Kevin Williams, Dwayne Robertson, Ryan Sims, Marcus Stroud...)

I am really interested in your projection of Ginn to Washington; please explain. Didn't they pay Randle-El big money last year to fill a speed receiver/return man role?

Is he Christian Okoye's son? I did not know that.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

shouldnt effet it much. they might slide a tad. ANd if two players were close in ranking teams might obviously take one over the other now.

Really who hasnt smoked once in awhile in college?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

shouldnt effet it much. they might slide a tad. ANd if two players were close in ranking teams might obviously take one over the other now.Really who hasnt smoked once in awhile in college?

I should have been more clear as this wasn't about the marijuana smoking stuff at all. I agree that it doesn't affect their stock one bit.I've never even smoked a cigarette, much less marijuana.

 

[GreedoShotFirst]

Okoye - Forget the age; he's a four year player, model citizen and has an NFL pedigree. Plus, I've read a lot saying he has the strength and frame to add another 20 pounds and play nose tackle if necessary. Plenty of tackles have gone high in recent years (Gerard Warren, Corey Simon, Kevin Williams, Dwayne Robertson, Ryan Sims, Marcus Stroud...)

I am really interested in your projection of Ginn to Washington; please explain. Didn't they pay Randle-El big money last year to fill a speed receiver/return man role?

Is he Christian Okoye's son? I did not know that.

He is not related at all.

 

[massraider]

Not too far at all.

Mainly because of the positions they play. I do happen to think that the DET interest in Adams is legit, so I think that #4 is about the furthest he can go. I think Willis wouldn't even be in the talk for top 10 if he ran a 4.5 at his pro day, so unless DET makes another trade, I don't see it. Adams plays DE, and DE always trumps LB.

As for Okoye, it's not like he's just a workout warrior. He produced for Louisville, and his projection to the NFL is as a 3-Tech, which are very rare. Finding those 300 pounders than can penetrate is so tough, and it also seems like when you do find them, their heads aren't in the right place. Okoye seems like a solid kid, and a potential Sapp/Kevin Williams type. I don't see him dropping past 10.

 

[fatness]

I am really interested in your projection of Ginn to Washington; please explain. Didn't they pay Randle-El big money last year to fill a speed receiver/return man role?

And neither Randle-El nor Lloyd worked out for them. Hopefully we can save the discussion for later, but I see it that if the Redskins only have one pick in the draft (5th rounders and higher don't count) they should take the guy that could affect all three phases of the game. Did you know that they had a private workout with him on Monday? And that they took Jason Campbell with them to do it? Waaaay to elaborate to just be a smokescreen.

The Redskins will not draft Ginn at #6. The only WR they'd draft there is Calvin Johnson, and he won't drop that far. WR is not a pressing need for them. They might draft Ginn if they traded down in the 1st round, but even then I doubt it. What they'd like to do is trade down a bit, get a good DT or DE, and an additional pick. They're more likely to draft Okoye at #6 than Ginn.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

shouldnt effet it much. they might slide a tad. ANd if two players were close in ranking teams might obviously take one over the other now.Really who hasnt smoked once in awhile in college?

I should have been more clear as this wasn't about the marijuana smoking stuff at all. I agree that it doesn't affect their stock one bit.I've never even smoked a cigarette, much less marijuana.

goodie for you.My point was that kids are kids and make dumb choices sometimes. Really Im surprised that they admitted it, sometimes honesty is not the best policy

 

[massraider]

I've never even smoked a cigarette, much less marijuana.

Dude, you are totally missing out.

 

[Kirby]

Okoye - Forget the age; he's a four year player, model citizen and has an NFL pedigree. Plus, I've read a lot saying he has the strength and frame to add another 20 pounds and play nose tackle if necessary. Plenty of tackles have gone high in recent years (Gerard Warren, Corey Simon, Kevin Williams, Dwayne Robertson, Ryan Sims, Marcus Stroud...)

I am really interested in your projection of Ginn to Washington; please explain. Didn't they pay Randle-El big money last year to fill a speed receiver/return man role?

Is he Christian Okoye's son? I did not know that.

He is not related at all.

I heard he met him once though.

 

[Mahoney]

We are talking about arguably the #1 pass rushing DE and the #1 DT in this years draft.

Every team in the top 10 can use upgrades on defense. Matter of fact, each team will get better faster if they improve their defense more so than their offense.

I can't see either falling out of the top 10. Of course, poor management is a major part of the reason these teams have such a high pick.....I take it back.....when we are talking about the Bidwells, Millens, and Heizengas of the world, nothing would shock me.

I guess it is entirely possible that the Redskins pass on a Blue chip Defensive lineman for a punt returner when you really think about it.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I guess it is entirely possible that the Redskins pass on a Blue chip Defensive lineman for a punt returner when you really think about it.

Ginn is way more than that, but we don't need to debate it here.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

We are talking about arguably the #1 pass rushing DE and the #1 DT in this years draft.

Actually, we're talking about that and we're talking about the #1 WR, #1 and #2 QBs, #1 lineman, #1 RB, #1 (maybe #2) DB, the #1 LB, and a wild card or two.

 

[Sammy3469]

FWIW...i think the Panthers would take Okoye at 14 if he was there and trade Jenkins for whatever they could get.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

From the rumor mill.

The Redskins privately loved the workout of Ted Ginn, Jr. and many have said that if he checks out medically, they would not be afraid to pull the trigger. We hope this is all disinformation, as the Redskins do not need another WR.

I don't know who "they" are, but I agree with them. How they can say they don't need another WR is baffling since Randle-El and Lloyd gave them next to nothing last year.

 

[fatness]

The Redskins were quite satisfied with what Randle-El gave them last year, both as a receiver and a returner. They already have Santana Moss for the "really quick, small guy who can get open deep" role.

Brandon Lloyd stunk last year, but as young as he is they haven't given up on him. James Thrash will keep making the team as a backup WR and backup returner because he's good on special teams. Mike Espy was good in last year's training camp and will probably make the team this year.

 

[MrPhoenix]

FWIW...i think the Panthers would take Okoye at 14 if he was there and trade Jenkins for whatever they could get.

Rams take Ginn at 13, Panthers take Okoye at 14, Panthers trade Jenkins to Rams for 3rd rounder.I like this.

 

[fatness]

Did you know that they had a private workout with him on Monday? And that they took Jason Campbell with them to do it? Waaaay to elaborate to just be a smokescreen.

Another report says that workout was with Dwayne Bowe.Link

 

[Boston]

shouldnt effet it much. they might slide a tad. ANd if two players were close in ranking teams might obviously take one over the other now.Really who hasnt smoked once in awhile in college?

I should have been more clear as this wasn't about the marijuana smoking stuff at all. I agree that it doesn't affect their stock one bit.I've never even smoked a cigarette, much less marijuana.

goodie for you.My point was that kids are kids and make dumb choices sometimes. Really Im surprised that they admitted it, sometimes honesty is not the best policy

From what I understand trouble really happens if a kid says he didn't than they find out they did. That's really considered a major character flaw that teams take very seriously.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

This is what I mean with Okoye.

Of course, you could probably make the same analysis with several other positions. So....

 

[Chaos Commish]

This is what I mean with Okoye.

Of course, you could probably make the same analysis with several other positions. So....

Good article and you know I am not on the Okoye bandwagon. I grew tired of the debate very quickly as he made his rise. But here are comments from DraftDaddy more specific than the Kirwin article that go right to what I was saying during last season.

DD.comment: Kirwan points out Louisville DT Amobi Okoye rising to top 10 status. Not to disparage this player or his fans but we have to ask if this player was actually 22 instead of 19, would there be as much buzz? The DT position is one where very few, if any draft picks make instant impact. It's a man's position and Okoye is still growing. By the time he is in the prime physically he will have several years of NFL wear and tear under his belt. It's possible that injury could strike before his body is fully mature, that's a side of the equation no one seems to be considering. The thinking is that if he's dominating at 19 what will he be at 22? The best DT in the league?

Only problem is that Okoye never really dominated at Louisville. He played well and impressed at Senior Bowl but he didn't dominate in the way that Warren Sapp dominated while at Miami, and that's a player Kirwan compares Okoye to in this article, and likely other teams are making that comparison as well. The whole idea seems more risky than people are considering, as there's never really been a dominating 19 year old at any position in the NFL, let alone at defensive tackle. Undoubtedly he is a rare athlete, and yes Okoye has a ton of upside. However we have to question whether the expectations are rising higher than this player can deliver. Being extraordinarily young isn't necessarily a positive in this case, it could be considered negatively given the demands of the position.

****

He wasn't the best run stuffing DT in Louisville last year. He was regularly, repeatedly, and redundantly blown off the LoS and sometimes driven way out of the play. He is a great pass rusher. He really hustles and plays reverses, misdirection, and roll outs great. He is very hard to grade because what he does best, he does better than the other DTs in this draft. But he struggles with leverage and run support more than a half dozen lower rated DTs. He's 19. It gets tough to say. I have known a few 19 years olds who were all done growing, sporting full beards and physically mature early. Okoye has the full beard and other signs of early maturity. Although I agree that is also hard to say. I know I want my first rounder to play and be good as a rookie if he isn't a QB. If he is top 10, I want a very special talent. I think there are 10 very special talents that should go ahead of Okoye. I also think there's another ten that are smarter choices and will prove more valuable. But then he is just 19.

 

[JimboJim]

Okoye - Forget the age; he's a four year player, model citizen and has an NFL pedigree. Plus, I've read a lot saying he has the strength and frame to add another 20 pounds and play nose tackle if necessary. Plenty of tackles have gone high in recent years (Gerard Warren, Corey Simon, Kevin Williams, Dwayne Robertson, Ryan Sims, Marcus Stroud...)

I am really interested in your projection of Ginn to Washington; please explain. Didn't they pay Randle-El big money last year to fill a speed receiver/return man role?

Is he Christian Okoye's son? I did not know that.

He is not related at all.

My bad. I remember seeing or reading somewhere that he was; must have been bad info.

 

[JohnnyU]

Tampa Bay trades up to #2 to take CJ (just to make sure they get him, providing the Raiders don't take him #1.) and Detroit takes Gaines Adams at #4. The Lions covet his pass rushing abilities. If all of this falls through, Detroit takes the safe route and selects Thomas.

 

[cscmtp]

NO WAY in hell the Skins take Ginn with the 6th pick. IF they draft a WR, it would be a larger possession type WR. They have a speed receiver in Santana Moss. Plus, unlike Ginn, Moss is actually good.

 

[Jason Wood]

I think I've been looking at this stuff too much and my propensity for getting bored has clouded me.1. What's the farthest that Gaines Adams could drop? He's a great pass rusher, but is he complete enough to be top 10?2. When the rubber meets the road, is an NFL GM really going to use a top 15 pick on a 19 year old, no matter how good he is?I think my last mock, just for fun, is going to have Adams out side the top 10 and Okoye going to Denver at 21.Here's how it shakes out:1. Oakland - Russell2. Tampa - CJ3. Cleveland - Quinn4. Detroit - Willis5. Arizona - Thomas6. Washington - Ginn7. Minnesota - AD Peterson8. Atlanta - Landry9. Miami - ???Defensive tackles never seem to go as high as most people predict. Is Okoye really going to go as high as top 10?

Andy,I'm really surprised to hear that line of thinking regarding Okoye. The fact he's 19 is a tremendous asset, not a detriment. He's a 4-year starter who, regardless of age, is already physically and mentally graded as a top DT prospect. Meanwhile, he's NOT physically at his peak yet. If he never adds another pound or grows an inch, he could be a Pro Bowler [physically]. Yet, he's almost certainly going to get a LOT stronger. Plus, Okoye is a rare breed. The kid is not just smart by NFL standards, he's smart by real world standards.If I were an NFL GM, it would be hard for me NOT to project Okoye and just judge him on what he is currently. And even then, it would be silly to see him fall outside of the top 15 at worst.

 

[-OZ-]

From the rumor mill.

The Redskins privately loved the workout of Ted Ginn, Jr. and many have said that if he checks out medically, they would not be afraid to pull the trigger. We hope this is all disinformation, as the Redskins do not need another WR.

I don't know who "they" are, but I agree with them. How they can say they don't need another WR is baffling since Randle-El and Lloyd gave them next to nothing last year.

ARE underperformed his salary, and wasn't as effective on special teams as hoped. But Ginn is probably the WR among the top rated who makes the least sense for the Redskins.

The Redskins were quite satisfied with what Randle-El gave them last year, both as a receiver and a returner. They already have Santana Moss for the "really quick, small guy who can get open deep" role.

Brandon Lloyd stunk last year, but as young as he is they haven't given up on him. James Thrash will keep making the team as a backup WR and backup returner because he's good on special teams. Mike Espy was good in last year's training camp and will probably make the team this year.

What the skins really need is a sure-handed WR who doesn't mind going over the middle. Right now they have 3 possible highlight reel types (one is obviously much better than the others), but Cooley is the only receiver who seems consistent. David Bowe, Steve Smith, Anthony Gonzalez, and Courtney Taylor make more sense and at least one of them will fall to their 2nd. Taylor might even last to their 4th or 5th, not that he's equal to Ginn, but he makes a lot of sense for the team.

 

[-OZ-]

I think I've been looking at this stuff too much and my propensity for getting bored has clouded me.1. What's the farthest that Gaines Adams could drop? He's a great pass rusher, but is he complete enough to be top 10?2. When the rubber meets the road, is an NFL GM really going to use a top 15 pick on a 19 year old, no matter how good he is?I think my last mock, just for fun, is going to have Adams out side the top 10 and Okoye going to Denver at 21.Here's how it shakes out:1. Oakland - Russell2. Tampa - CJ3. Cleveland - Quinn4. Detroit - Willis5. Arizona - Thomas6. Washington - Ginn7. Minnesota - AD Peterson8. Atlanta - Landry9. Miami - ???Defensive tackles never seem to go as high as most people predict. Is Okoye really going to go as high as top 10?

Andy,I'm really surprised to hear that line of thinking regarding Okoye. The fact he's 19 is a tremendous asset, not a detriment. He's a 4-year starter who, regardless of age, is already physically and mentally graded as a top DT prospect. Meanwhile, he's NOT physically at his peak yet. If he never adds another pound or grows an inch, he could be a Pro Bowler [physically]. Yet, he's almost certainly going to get a LOT stronger. Plus, Okoye is a rare breed. The kid is not just smart by NFL standards, he's smart by real world standards.If I were an NFL GM, it would be hard for me NOT to project Okoye and just judge him on what he is currently. And even then, it would be silly to see him fall outside of the top 15 at worst.

Okoye will probably rotate in, around 50% of the plays, for his first year. After that, the kid should be a beast.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Andy,I'm really surprised to hear that line of thinking regarding Okoye. The fact he's 19 is a tremendous asset, not a detriment. He's a 4-year starter who, regardless of age, is already physically and mentally graded as a top DT prospect. Meanwhile, he's NOT physically at his peak yet. If he never adds another pound or grows an inch, he could be a Pro Bowler [physically]. Yet, he's almost certainly going to get a LOT stronger.

I find this line of thinking problematic. What if he gets TOO big and it affects his athleticism to the point that he's ineffective?He's a four year starter for a program that before last year was pretty middle of the road, talent wise. It's not like he started four years in Miami or USC. (I'm splitting hairs with this statement. Don't hammer this point too much, please.)I just see problems drafting a guy top 15 based on what you expect him to grow into, not what he already is.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

ARE underperformed his salary, and wasn't as effective on special teams as hoped. But Ginn is probably the WR among the top rated who makes the least sense for the Redskins. What the skins really need is a sure-handed WR who doesn't mind going over the middle. Right now they have 3 possible highlight reel types (one is obviously much better than the others), but Cooley is the only receiver who seems consistent. David Bowe, Steve Smith, Anthony Gonzalez, and Courtney Taylor make more sense and at least one of them will fall to their 2nd. Taylor might even last to their 4th or 5th, not that he's equal to Ginn, but he makes a lot of sense for the team.

What the Skins need is to get maximum value out of the only pick they have. Ginn is an upgrade at two positions, returner and WR. I have to imagine they'd consider using him on defense in spots too.Just because the 'Skins don't have a certain type of receiver doesn't necessarily mean that that's the type they need.

 

[southeastjerome]

The Redskins will not take Ginn at 6. They worked out both he and Bowe privately. Its the worst kept secret that they are trying to move out of six and possibly move down. I could see them taking one of these guys if they move down. If they stay at 6 it will be Okoye or Landry. Mark it down.

Randel El played pretty well on special teams last year and I don't think the team is as disappointed in him as his offensive stats might indicate. Brandon Lloyd on the other hand is another story.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

The Redskins will not take Ginn at 6. They worked out both he and Bowe privately. Its the worst kept secret that they are trying to move out of six and possibly move down. I could see them taking one of these guys if they move down. If they stay at 6 it will be Okoye or Landry. Mark it down.

You guys are starting to convince me that they worked out Ginn in case they're able to move out of the #6 spot.I still think Ginn would be worth the #6. But I can see where others would disagree too.

 

[Obie Wan]

I guess it is entirely possible that the Redskins pass on a Blue chip Defensive lineman for a punt returner when you really think about it.

Ginn is way more than that, but we don't need to debate it here.

yeah - he's a really really fast punt returner.

 

[Assani Fisher]

I am really interested in your projection of Ginn to Washington; please explain. Didn't they pay Randle-El big money last year to fill a speed receiver/return man role?

And neither Randle-El nor Lloyd worked out for them. Hopefully we can save the discussion for later, but I see it that if the Redskins only have one pick in the draft (5th rounders and higher don't count) they should take the guy that could affect all three phases of the game. Did you know that they had a private workout with him on Monday? And that they took Jason Campbell with them to do it? Waaaay to elaborate to just be a smokescreen.

Redskins fan here....happy with Randle El. Not sure why you think he was such a bust. The entire offense was down last year due to injuries and shaky QB play. But ARE was solid.