Game of Thrones on HBO: non-book thread (1 Viewer)

[Amused to Death]

Reading that scene was the biggest "Holy ####" moment I've ever had reading any book And damn if the show didn't do it absolute justice...from the band playing "The Rains of Castamere" to Catelyn slowly realizing what is about to happen as the doors are closed and she realizes Roose Bolton is wearing Mail Pretty sure twitter just blew up

Mine was the next chapter, and how I thought they should've ended the episode. Not complaining, however. It was very well done.

Oh good... a boring episode next week.

I'll explain in spoilers about what he is referring to, although the event has aleady happened so it really isn't spoiling anything.

Spoiler

Arya has a chapter immediately after the Red Wedding. The last line of the chapter is something along the lines of her taking an axe to the head. It seemed at this point she was dead rather than just knocked unconscious. For me and a lot of readers, this was a lot more upsetting than Robb's and Cat's death.

Agree with your spoiler. It removes a lot of the disappoint/speculation I had while reading. Its kinda obvious the way the show went last night.

 

[mad sweeney]

Robb Stark may be the biggest #### up of all time. Every decision he made was impulsive, selfish and ultimately led to the death of his kin and bannermen, as well as the Stark war effort.Arya and Bran are obviously going to play a huge role going forward. It just can't end this way for that House. My guess is that King J is not long for the world and that he bites it next season. Likely at the sword/arrow of Arya.You have to think the Starks have taken the last of their beatings. At least the remaining members aren't morons.

Well, he got it from his mother, whose impulsiveness pretty much started this thing and turned a fairly bloodless Lannister coup into a nationwide bloodbath when she gave a citizen's arrest to Tyrion at the Inn. Then she let Jaime go, on the off chance that he'd be able to get her daughters free, which set into motion the mini uprising amongst his Norhtern Armies. She's an idiot and I'm glad she's dead. This mess is more her fault than anyone else's.

 

[B-Deep]

if you add in my pants to the end of most of the house words it works well

Stark

Winter is coming in my pants

Lannister

He me roar in my pants

Unofficial: A Lannister always pays his debts in my pants

Targareon

Fire and Blood in my pants

Baratheon

Ours is the Fury in my pants

Arryn

As high as honor in my pants

Greyjoy

We do not sew in my pants

Tyrell

Growing strong in my pants

Martell

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken in my pants

try others!

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Words

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Another thing that I really liked about the Red Wedding scene was the way that they gave us that little bit of hope that Kat was going to save Robb and then ripped it all away. Someone else mentioned a few pages back the way this show differs from so many others because in most you know characters x, y, and z won't die so you never really fear for them no matter how grim it looks.

This scene almost poked fun at that, hinting for a minute that it was going to follow the routine network cliche of impossible situation for a major character that they somehow conjure up a way to get out of (in this case, Kat taking Frey's wife hostage). Then they basically said "haha just kidding, we're actually killing everyone afterall".

I was sad to see Robb/Kat go as I was rooting for them, but damn if it wasn't worth it for such a crazy awesome scene.

I also much preferred the silent credits as a way for them to stand out to the weird poppish song to make them stand out after Jamie got his hand sliced off.

 

[Amused to Death]

One thing to keep in mind about Robb, he was only a teenager (15? 17 at most). This was his first experience in battle.

 

[CBusAlex]

Robb was the worst GGRP ever, but I think it was his mom that ####ed everything all up.

I think Rob made it pretty clear last night that this is incorrect.

Capturing Tyrion and marching him up the hill wasn't the smartest idea ever. Turning Jamie loose was doubly stupid. Both these directly led to the events last night more than Robb getting some Valeryian ### imo.

If Cat doesn't free the Kingslayer, Rob doesn't lose the Karstarks and thus doesn't need the Freys. But if Rob doesn't break his promise to marry one of the Frey daughters, Walder doesn't side with the Lannisters and betray him (his daughter would be queen and his grandson a king; in Westeros that's called "winning"). Both decisions were equally to blame.

 

[mad sweeney]

FYI, you can't hear a song when you read a book. Us book people heard it exactly the same number of times.

The point is that you knew to look out for it. You knew to pay attention to the songs that involved the Lannister's because you knew the Lannister song was going to be a big deal. To you, a Lannister whistling is "hey maybe that's that Lannister theme song that's going to be involved in one of the biggest scenes of the series". To everyone else it's just some guy whistling. What was the melody of the song that played during the credits of S2E2? If I played it on a violin would you be able to recognize it? Of course not, because it's not important, and you didn't have any prior knowledge that it would be important when it played. It's not like all of the book readers are some super scrupulous bunch that picks up all the subtleties in life while all of the TV viewers are just a bunch of dully fratbros who would be more in their element watching The Kardashians. You know what to look for and you completely lack the ability to see if from the perspective of someone that doesn't. Sorry we didn't literally have it spelled out for us ("The band begins playing The Rock of Castomere") like you did. I'm also skeptical of how much of the whistling thing you picked up on was you actually picking up on it vs reading it in a wiki.

>Picking up on the song really isn't a book vs. non book thing, it is a perception/music thing.

What a crraaazzzzzyyyy coincidence that every book reader in this thread is a musical person and every TV only viewer in this thread is not. Right?

It's absolutely a book vs non book thing hence every book reader picking up on it and every non book reader not. Oh, but one non booker reader on the entire internet who does a podcast examining the intracacies of the show picked up on it so clearly the other 20 million of us are just dense.

Not sure about all 20M of you, but you're certainly giving lots of evidence that one of you is dense.

 

[mad sweeney]

FYI, you can't hear a song when you read a book. Us book people heard it exactly the same number of times.

The point is that you knew to look out for it. You knew to pay attention to the songs that involved the Lannister's because you knew the Lannister song was going to be a big deal. To you, a Lannister whistling is "hey maybe that's that Lannister theme song that's going to be involved in one of the biggest scenes of the series". To everyone else it's just some guy whistling. What was the melody of the song that played during the credits of S2E2? If I played it on a violin would you be able to recognize it? Of course not, because it's not important, and you didn't have any prior knowledge that it would be important when it played. It's not like all of the book readers are some super scrupulous bunch that picks up all the subtleties in life while all of the TV viewers are just a bunch of dully fratbros who would be more in their element watching The Kardashians. You know what to look for and you completely lack the ability to see if from the perspective of someone that doesn't. Sorry we didn't literally have it spelled out for us ("The band begins playing The Rock of Castomere") like you did. I'm also skeptical of how much of the whistling thing you picked up on was you actually picking up on it vs reading it in a wiki.

>Picking up on the song really isn't a book vs. non book thing, it is a perception/music

thing.

What a crraaazzzzzyyyy coincidence that every book reader in this thread is a musical person and every TV only viewer in this thread is not. Right?

It's absolutely a book vs non book thing hence every book reader picking up on it and every non book reader not. Oh, but one non booker reader on the entire internet who does a podcast examining the intracacies of the show picked up on it so clearly the other 20 million of us are just dense.

I'm so glad that we simple TV viewers who dare to watch episodes only once can give the serious students of GOT (i.e. Leeroy) a reason to feel superior to someone.

If you're only going to watch an episode once, then why are you investigating about it and reading about it and looking into it in other venues and then whining about getting answers? Seems pretty stupid to me.

 

[CBusAlex]

if you add in my pants to the end of most of the house words it works well

try others!

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Words

House Wode

 

[B-Deep]

if you add in my pants to the end of most of the house words it works well

try others!

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Words

House Wode

Touch me not in my pants!

 

[B-Deep]

if you add in my pants to the end of most of the house words it works well

try others!

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Words

House Wode

Touch me not in my pants!

House Plumm

Come try me in my pants

 

[(HULK)]

Robb was the worst GGRP ever, but I think it was his mom that ####ed everything all up.

In a nice twist from the usual, look at how much love changed the world for the worse, instead of saving the day.

If Robb doesn't fall in love with the Chaplain girl, he marries Frey's daughter and has a huge army to crush the Lannister's.

Instead, because he falls in love, he dooms his bride, himself, his mother, and destroys the largest army for good in the world. The entire fate of the evil Lannister family was re-written for the better because Robb fell in love with some girl.

Crazy.

So, you TV watchers think that there are good guys and bad guys in this show? I think its more morally ambiguous, but I'm colored from having read the books.

i did

You don't think Rob was motivated by vengance? You don't think he broke his oath to Frey?

From my perspective, the only true good guys on this show were Eddard Stark and all the children regardless of house, excluding Joffery.

 

[Usual21]

So - generally speaking - how far into book 3 are we with the events of the wedding?

Spoiler

just beyond half way I'd guess, just beginning the awesomeness of book 3

Looked it up last night. The Red Wedding is Chapter 51.

 

[culdeus]

Robb was the worst GGRP ever, but I think it was his mom that ####ed everything all up.

In a nice twist from the usual, look at how much love changed the world for the worse, instead of saving the day. If Robb doesn't fall in love with the Chaplain girl, he marries Frey's daughter and has a huge army to crush the Lannister's. Instead, because he falls in love, he dooms his bride, himself, his mother, and destroys the largest army for good in the world. The entire fate of the evil Lannister family was re-written for the better because Robb fell in love with some girl. Crazy.

So, you TV watchers think that there are good guys and bad guys in this show? I think its more morally ambiguous, but I'm colored from having read the books.

i did

You don't think Rob was motivated by vengance? You don't think he broke his oath to Frey?

From my perspective, the only true good guys on this show were Eddard Stark and all the children regardless of house, excluding Joffery.

I think you are supposed to think Snow is a GG. He does some BG things for cred to the BG, but he's in my GG list imo.

 

[(HULK)]

Robb was the worst GGRP ever, but I think it was his mom that ####ed everything all up.

In a nice twist from the usual, look at how much love changed the world for the worse, instead of saving the day.

If Robb doesn't fall in love with the Chaplain girl, he marries Frey's daughter and has a huge army to crush the Lannister's.

Instead, because he falls in love, he dooms his bride, himself, his mother, and destroys the largest army for good in the world. The entire fate of the evil Lannister family was re-written for the better because Robb fell in love with some girl.

Crazy.

So, you TV watchers think that there are good guys and bad guys in this show? I think its more morally ambiguous, but I'm colored from having read the books.

Rob and Ned were pretty clearly "good guys". Jofferey couldn't be more "bad guy" if they gave him a supervillain costume and doomsday machine.

Yes, Jofferey is pure bad guy.

The rest of the characters though, I see it as a good/bad continum. Jamie isn't all that bad as you tv watchers found out this season. Tyrion isn't either. Its not like house Lannister is pure evil, its just that Jofferey is, Cersei and Tywin are pure schemers too, which doesn't help the perception.

The show is really about moral shades of grey if you ask me though.

 

[biggamer3]

fwiw, I discussed this episode with a few buddies of mine who are non book readers and none of them picked up on the song either. Pretty sure if you took a poll of non book people that almost all would not have linked the past references to that song.

 

[(HULK)]

Fossoway:A taste of glory in my pants

 

[KarmaPolice]

FYI, you can't hear a song when you read a book. Us book people heard it exactly the same number of times.

The point is that you knew to look out for it. You knew to pay attention to the songs that involved the Lannister's because you knew the Lannister song was going to be a big deal. To you, a Lannister whistling is "hey maybe that's that Lannister theme song that's going to be involved in one of the biggest scenes of the series". To everyone else it's just some guy whistling. What was the melody of the song that played during the credits of S2E2? If I played it on a violin would you be able to recognize it? Of course not, because it's not important, and you didn't have any prior knowledge that it would be important when it played. It's not like all of the book readers are some super scrupulous bunch that picks up all the subtleties in life while all of the TV viewers are just a bunch of dully fratbros who would be more in their element watching The Kardashians. You know what to look for and you completely lack the ability to see if from the perspective of someone that doesn't. Sorry we didn't literally have it spelled out for us ("The band begins playing The Rock of Castomere") like you did. I'm also skeptical of how much of the whistling thing you picked up on was you actually picking up on it vs reading it in a wiki.

Picking up on the song really isn't a book vs. non book thing, it is a perception/music thing.

What a crraaazzzzzyyyy coincidence that every book reader in this thread is a musical person and every TV only viewer in this thread is not. Right? It's absolutely a book vs non book thing hence every book reader picking up on it and every non book reader not. Oh, but one non booker reader on the entire internet who does a podcast examining the intracacies of the show picked up on it so clearly the other 20 million of us are just dense.

wow, you guys have a serious chip o your shoulders. I just posted that I didnt pick up on the music until prompted to do so. I have other friends I talk to about the show - the type who pick up on and pay attention to soundtracks during movies who noticed the different themes for the families and characters. nobody is saying anything about being a "stupid" tv show watcher. more accurately, most of the people who read the books are far more likely to obsess about every detail/have the ability to do so since they know the core plot.

 

[B-Deep]

IF anyone at any poinmt thinks/thought Tyrion is/was bad i'll fight them

Tyrion rules, end of story

 

[bonesman]

if you add in my pants to the end of most of the house words it works well

try others!

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Words

House Fossoway of Cider Hall

 

[B-Deep]

Fossoway:

A taste of glory in my pants

 

[biggamer3]

Why were the wildings pissed at Ygrette after she shot an arrow through old man? They were like "she's with him", but they should have been pissed at Snow not her, she was still on their side by evidence of her murdering the old man

 

[B-Deep]

House Cerwyn - Honed and Ready in my pants

 

[FreeBaGeL]

nobody is saying anything about being a "stupid" tv show watcher.

That's not true at all. Leeroy continues to go on with "how could people possibly not pick up on..." in a condescending tone. Someone else said that not picking up on it was the equivalent of poor reading comprehension.

more accurately, most of the people who read the books are far more likely to obsess about every detail/have the ability to do so since they know the core plot.

That's really the point I was trying to make. Several of the book readers picked up on something they were specifically looking for thanks to their knowledge of the books, and then acted like anyone that didn't pick up on it was dumb, disregarding that those people didn't have that prior knowledge of what to look for like they did.

 

[rascal]

Reading that scene was the biggest "Holy ####" moment I've ever had reading any book And damn if the show didn't do it absolute justice...from the band playing "The Rains of Castamere" to Catelyn slowly realizing what is about to happen as the doors are closed and she realizes Roose Bolton is wearing Mail Pretty sure twitter just blew up

Mine was the next chapter, and how I thought they should've ended the episode. Not complaining, however. It was very well done.

Oh good... a boring episode next week.

I'll explain in spoilers about what he is referring to, although the event has aleady happened so it really isn't spoiling anything.

Spoiler

Arya has a chapter immediately after the Red Wedding. The last line of the chapter is something along the lines of her taking an axe to the head. It seemed at this point she was dead rather than just knocked unconscious. For me and a lot of readers, this was a lot more upsetting than Robb's and Cat's death.

ah...I thought it happened during the red wedding....that explains it

 

[bonesman]

Robb was the worst GGRP ever, but I think it was his mom that ####ed everything all up.

In a nice twist from the usual, look at how much love changed the world for the worse, instead of saving the day. If Robb doesn't fall in love with the Chaplain girl, he marries Frey's daughter and has a huge army to crush the Lannister's. Instead, because he falls in love, he dooms his bride, himself, his mother, and destroys the largest army for good in the world. The entire fate of the evil Lannister family was re-written for the better because Robb fell in love with some girl. Crazy.

So, you TV watchers think that there are good guys and bad guys in this show? I think its more morally ambiguous, but I'm colored from having read the books.

i did

You don't think Rob was motivated by vengance? You don't think he broke his oath to Frey?

From my perspective, the only true good guys on this show were Eddard Stark and all the children regardless of house, excluding Joffery.

Even Ned was a bit morally gray. He did help usurp the throne after all as vengeance for his father and brother's death. Sure the Mad King needed to be stopped, but old king scab likely wouldn't have lasted long and Rhegar would've probably made for a good king. Targaryians brought hundreds of years of prosperity, you don't fk that up over one bad apple... after all the gods flipped the coin.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Why were the wildings pissed at Ygrette after she shot an arrow through old man? They were like "she's with him", but they should have been pissed at Snow not her, she was still on their side by evidence of her murdering the old man

By doing that she was really on Snow's side, protecting him from having to kill the guy since she knew he wouldn't do it.

Snow did a really ####ty job of pretending like he had turned. It's no surprise they found him out, they didn't seem to be buying it for a second.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Robb was the worst GGRP ever, but I think it was his mom that ####ed everything all up.

I think Rob made it pretty clear last night that this is incorrect.

Capturing Tyrion and marching him up the hill wasn't the smartest idea ever. Turning Jamie loose was doubly stupid. Both these directly led to the events last night more than Robb getting some Valeryian ### imo.

But Frey was the key to last night not the Lannisters.

Disagree completely.

Frey was pissed, but no way was that old buzzard the key piece to this event.

 

[Mjolnirs]

I did think the show glossed over a big point in Westeros customs and unwritten rules - the bit about hospitality. A couple of episodes ago, Lady Cat warned Robb about making sure they are offered (and take) food and drink as soon as they get to the Freys - and at the beginning of this episode we see Robb eating and drinking and being offered the protection of hospitality by Lord Frey.

They made a point of showing them all being offered food by Lord Frey and of him taking a bite. That was the first clue that something was up.

 

[KarmaPolice]

for my money, the only main characters without a grey zone on their moral compass are joffery, and I am starting to think Littlefinger. everybody else I they have done a decent job of trying to present both sides of.

 

[biggamer3]

I did think the show glossed over a big point in Westeros customs and unwritten rules - the bit about hospitality. A couple of episodes ago, Lady Cat warned Robb about making sure they are offered (and take) food and drink as soon as they get to the Freys - and at the beginning of this episode we see Robb eating and drinking and being offered the protection of hospitality by Lord Frey.

They made a point of showing them all being offered food by Lord Frey and of him taking a bite. That was the first clue that something was up.

explain to me like I'm five, why would Frey also participate in eating those biscuits raise red flags to Rob?

 

[biggamer3]

Why were the wildings pissed at Ygrette after she shot an arrow through old man? They were like "she's with him", but they should have been pissed at Snow not her, she was still on their side by evidence of her murdering the old man

By doing that she was really on Snow's side, protecting him from having to kill the guy since she knew he wouldn't do it. Snow did a really ####ty job of pretending like he had turned. It's no surprise they found him out, they didn't seem to be buying it for a second.

possibly, but I don't think she has shown enough to the others that she will betray them for the enemy.

 

[shuke]

I did think the show glossed over a big point in Westeros customs and unwritten rules - the bit about hospitality. A couple of episodes ago, Lady Cat warned Robb about making sure they are offered (and take) food and drink as soon as they get to the Freys - and at the beginning of this episode we see Robb eating and drinking and being offered the protection of hospitality by Lord Frey.

They made a point of showing them all being offered food by Lord Frey and of him taking a bite. That was the first clue that something was up.

Why was a symbol of hospitality a "clue that something was up"?

 

[Chadstroma]

Picking up on the song really isn't a book vs. non book thing, it is a perception/music thing. While the books have the lyrics and state when the song is being sung or played it is not like you know what that sounds like. Sure, I knew the meaning of the song before the show started, but it wasn't really until late last season (because of a podcast) that I started hearing and thinking about the music in the show. The non book reader of the podcast is very focused on music in film and TV so he brought up the musical cues and hints that were going on ie - Rains of Castemere and Melisandre's theme. Just like me, the other person on the podcast, who had read all the books, hadn't picked up on those. It's one of those things that you start to notice once it is pointed out to you, but I completely understand people not picking up on it naturally.

I really do not care whether a book or non-book reader pick up on it- those within the world should have.

 

[belljr]

In a nice twist from the usual, look at how much love changed the world for the worse, instead of saving the day. If Robb doesn't fall in love with the Chaplain girl, he marries Frey's daughter and has a huge army to crush the Lannister's. Instead, because he falls in love, he dooms his bride, himself, his mother, and destroys the largest army for good in the world. The entire fate of the evil Lannister family was re-written for the better because Robb fell in love with some girl. Crazy.

So, you TV watchers think that there are good guys and bad guys in this show? I think its more morally ambiguous, but I'm colored from having read the books.

i did

You don't think Rob was motivated by vengance? You don't think he broke his oath to Frey? From my perspective, the only true good guys on this show were Eddard Stark and all the children regardless of house, excluding Joffery.

well i think people are changing but how i saw it...starks good guys, robb acting on revenge for what the "bad guys" did to his father.yes robb broke his oath and that was wrong but grand scheme... he was a ggsnow .. ggdragon lady... pj right now

 

[mad sweeney]

I did think the show glossed over a big point in Westeros customs and unwritten rules - the bit about hospitality. A couple of episodes ago, Lady Cat warned Robb about making sure they are offered (and take) food and drink as soon as they get to the Freys - and at the beginning of this episode we see Robb eating and drinking and being offered the protection of hospitality by Lord Frey.

They made a point of showing them all being offered food by Lord Frey and of him taking a bite. That was the first clue that something was up.

explain to me like I'm five, why would Frey also participate in eating those biscuits raise red flags to Rob?

He's probably talking about it raising red flags for viewers, junior.

 

[Mjolnirs]

explain to me like I'm five, why would Frey also participate in eating those biscuits raise red flags to Rob?

Why was a symbol of hospitality a "clue that something was up"?

It wasn't a red flag to Robb, more of a red flag to the viewer. When there have been other scenes of people coming into a castle we haven't seen a ceremonial "breaking of bread". Since they were making a point of showing them all take a nibble, I viewed it as visual foreshadowing.

 

[bonesman]

for my money, the only main characters without a grey zone on their moral compass are joffery, and I am starting to think Littlefinger. everybody else I they have done a decent job of trying to present both sides of.

Joffrey is more a product of his environment/circumstance than evil, IMO. He is a monster that Cercei created. He is a reflection of her IMO.

 

[mad sweeney]

for my money, the only main characters without a grey zone on their moral compass are joffery, and I am starting to think Littlefinger. everybody else I they have done a decent job of trying to present both sides of.

Joffrey is more a product of his environment/circumstance than evil, IMO. He is a monster that Cercei created. He is a reflection of her IMO.

Tommen and Marcella aren't cruel little pricks, something extra evil is in Joffrey

 

[culdeus]

Not sure if this has come up yet. The Grantland writeup mentioned this. It's supposed to be a non-book recap, but just in case i'll bind it up in tags.

Spoiler

And while Roose Bolton seems like a man built to adapt to such a down and dirty era — he wears body armor to a reception and stabs his allies in the front! — even he seems like a fossil when compared to the wild-eyed, pointless savagery of Theon's torturer, who at this point I have to assume is Roose's son. (The X is the big giveaway. As is the wanton violence.) The Starks may be history, but I'm starting to realize inescapable fatalism may well be the point of Martin's pessimistic epic; the pages of, as Gillie puts it, "very old books" is where everyone is headed eventually. No matter how many letters Tywin writes, or how many scores Walder and Roose settle, winter is still coming. It just arrives a little earlier in the North.

Bolded seems to be something of interest to others.

 

[Chadstroma]

So, as far as Westeros is concerned- the Stark House is all but wiped from the earth. They think Ed, Cat, Robb, and the youngest brothers are dead. No one really knows of Arya and I would guess most would presume dead at this point. Jon took the black and in many ways makes him dead to Westeros. The only remaining Stark is married to a Lannister after being a hostage for a while.

 

[Amused to Death]

I did think the show glossed over a big point in Westeros customs and unwritten rules - the bit about hospitality. A couple of episodes ago, Lady Cat warned Robb about making sure they are offered (and take) food and drink as soon as they get to the Freys - and at the beginning of this episode we see Robb eating and drinking and being offered the protection of hospitality by Lord Frey.

They made a point of showing them all being offered food by Lord Frey and of him taking a bite. That was the first clue that something was up.

Why was a symbol of hospitality a "clue that something was up"?

I don't think the actual offering/eating was the clue - rather the fact that it made out to be a big thing that they had to make sure to accept (and eat) something offered by Frey. Cat was uneasy about the whole wedding and knew they were in a delicate situation.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Robb was the worst GGRP ever, but I think it was his mom that ####ed everything all up.

In a nice twist from the usual, look at how much love changed the world for the worse, instead of saving the day. If Robb doesn't fall in love with the Chaplain girl, he marries Frey's daughter and has a huge army to crush the Lannister's. Instead, because he falls in love, he dooms his bride, himself, his mother, and destroys the largest army for good in the world. The entire fate of the evil Lannister family was re-written for the better because Robb fell in love with some girl. Crazy.

So, you TV watchers think that there are good guys and bad guys in this show? I think its more morally ambiguous, but I'm colored from having read the books.

i did

You don't think Rob was motivated by vengance? You don't think he broke his oath to Frey? From my perspective, the only true good guys on this show were Eddard Stark and all the children regardless of house, excluding Joffery.

Even Ned was a bit morally gray. He did help usurp the throne after all as vengeance for his father and brother's death. Sure the Mad King needed to be stopped, but old king scab likely wouldn't have lasted long and Rhegar would've probably made for a good king. Targaryians brought hundreds of years of prosperity, you don't fk that up over one bad apple... after all the gods flipped the coin.

It's pretty hard for me to think of Ned Stark as a good guy when he put his family in harm's way due solely to his own stubborn arrogance and stupidity. He and Kat were horrible parents and their arrogance doomed not only their own children but countless others under their care at Winterfell.

 

[bonesman]

for my money, the only main characters without a grey zone on their moral compass are joffery, and I am starting to think Littlefinger. everybody else I they have done a decent job of trying to present both sides of.

Joffrey is more a product of his environment/circumstance than evil, IMO. He is a monster that Cercei created. He is a reflection of her IMO.

Tommen and Marcella aren't cruel little pricks, something extra evil is in Joffrey

Good point, but they haven't had Cercei in their ear their whole life telling them how important and royal they are. It could be that incest breeds madness on occasion. I will say Joff is way less morally ambiguous in the show though.

 

[Christo]

Robb was the worst GGRP ever, but I think it was his mom that ####ed everything all up.

I think Rob made it pretty clear last night that this is incorrect.

Capturing Tyrion and marching him up the hill wasn't the smartest idea ever. Turning Jamie loose was doubly stupid. Both these directly led to the events last night more than Robb getting some Valeryian ### imo.

But Frey was the key to last night not the Lannisters.

Disagree completely.

Frey was pissed, but no way was that old buzzard the key piece to this event.

What other reason would he have to side with the Lannisters?

 

[Thunderlips]

One thing to keep in mind about Robb, he was only a teenager (15? 17 at most). This was his first experience in battle.

His first experience at getting some ### too.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Robb was the worst GGRP ever, but I think it was his mom that ####ed everything all up.

I think Rob made it pretty clear last night that this is incorrect.

Capturing Tyrion and marching him up the hill wasn't the smartest idea ever. Turning Jamie loose was doubly stupid. Both these directly led to the events last night more than Robb getting some Valeryian ### imo.

But Frey was the key to last night not the Lannisters.

Disagree completely.

Frey was pissed, but no way was that old buzzard the key piece to this event.

What other reason would he have to side with the Lannisters?

that is frey's motivation, but he doesn't have the power to pull that off, which is why I said he wasn't the key to last night. I believe all this still stems from joff offing ned and cat nabbing tyrion. others seem to be pieces in the aftermath.

 

[Gr00vus]

Such a great episode. I know lots don't like T.V. Sandor "The Hound" Clegane, but I really enjoyed his scenes with Arya in this episode. The Yunkai sword fight was fantastic too. The Jon/Bran scenes were good as well. So my only quibble is that they should probably have dispersed a couple of those to some of the previous lackluster episodes, instead of cramming it all into episode 9.

 

[Thunderlips]

So, as far as Westeros is concerned- the Stark House is all but wiped from the earth. They think Ed, Cat, Robb, and the youngest brothers are dead. No one really knows of Arya and I would guess most would presume dead at this point. Jon took the black and in many ways makes him dead to Westeros. The only remaining Stark is married to a Lannister after being a hostage for a while.

To be fair...in the show..Theon's torturer knows that Bran and Rickon are still alive.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Abrantes, on 03 Jun 2013 - 00:59, said:Blackfish takes the timeliest piss break ever.

It would have been great if Robb staggered to his feet...stumbled....ever...so... slowly to his pregnant bride's corpse.......stepped over it.... to the door, pounded on it, and with his dying breath muttered :"I hope you had a hell of a piss, Blackfish !"