Goodell Issues Ruling? (1 Viewer)

[bostonfred]

NOTE - The Steelers said they take special precautions when they play the Patriots. Interesting how New England seems to have a lot more trouble when they play the Steelers.

The Patriots are 4-1 against the Steelers in the Belichick era.

You think anyone finds it surprising that the P*tr**ts dont lose to a team twice in the same season?

I'm sorry your team lost in the AFC Championship game to the Patriots twice. I know it hurt.

 

[Marc Levin]

 

[maxwell1295]

If true, not enough. Nothing less than a suspension is appropriate.

What does that accomplish? If you suspend the coach for 4 weeks, it would only benefit the Patriots' next 4 opponents (SD, Buffalo, Cincy, and Cleveland).

Aren't you the one who just said "FORFEIT"? Who does that benefit and who does it hurt?

It helps the team that was the victim of the cheating and hurts the team that cheated. It wasn't like this game affected any of the other teams in the league...

 

[Pittsburgh United]

That seem equitable for a second offense. Lose a first, third, $500k and multi-game suspension.I saw that the League did circulate the How to Cheat legally memo reminding teams they can't tape opposing coaches.Read lips, take pictures, it's all good. But dare you to transfer onto a video tape ...

Pro video cameras have (or can) a microwave transmitter on them that can broadcast the image real time to a receiver. Say, in the coordinator's booth. From there they could have instant access to the signals. It's not just recording it, the term "recording devices" refers to cameras that record, but they do so much more than just record.

I can't talk about this anymore. It's making my head hurt.

Great, see ya.

 

[mad sweeney]

That seem equitable for a second offense. Lose a first, third, $500k and multi-game suspension.I saw that the League did circulate the How to Cheat legally memo reminding teams they can't tape opposing coaches.Read lips, take pictures, it's all good. But dare you to transfer onto a video tape ...

Pro video cameras have (or can) a microwave transmitter on them that can broadcast the image real time to a receiver. Say, in the coordinator's booth. From there they could have instant access to the signals. It's not just recording it, the term "recording devices" refers to cameras that record, but they do so much more than just record.

I can't talk about this anymore. It's making my head hurt.

Sorry to confront you with something contrary to your belittling of the situation

You're right. I'm sure that's the exact operation that Mike Centralla from Fitchburg State had set up. I apologize.

You mean the guy working for the multi-million (billion?) dollar Patriot's organization? I'm sure they risked this type of punishment and scandal by equipping a guy with VHS tapes. And considering the fact that almost every single local TV news station, even in Kazakhstan, has the same set up for their broadcast vans, high school dropouts could set that kind of system up.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

Favre made a commit the other day that all they would have to tell him is Cover Two or some other formation. Two word signals would allow Brady to easily slice and dice any defense. NOTE - The Steelers said they take special precautions when they play the Patriots. Interesting how New England seems to have a lot more trouble when they play the Steelers.

NE has beaten Pittsburgh 4 of the last 5 times that they have played. Maybe Pitt should use extra-super-de-duper special precautions when playing NE, because the special ones don't seem to be working.

 

[vasco75]

Can a team lose a 1st round pick under the CBA? Aren't those contracts quarenteed

John Clayton mentioned something about this yesterday. Something that the union wouldn't be too high on this because it'll mean that there will be one less 1st rounder being drafted which would affect 1st round salaries.Then again, it is John Clayton...

 

[tombonneau]

Forfeiting 2 high draft picks, possibly a 1st and 3rd, is significant.

I think i heard somewhere on ESPN, that the players union wouldn't allow a 1st round pick to be taken. Maybe a 2nd and 3rd.

I'd be curious to know the NFLPAs influence over non NFLPs or team punishments. In Upshaws words, "I work for current NFL players". Not saying you're wrong, just don't see how the NFLPA has anything to do with this.

my thoughts as well

First round picks are paid more than second round picks. If they take away one of the 32 first round picks, then one of the top 32 players in the draft will take a substantial pay cut. That might not seem like a big deal, but union's have to defend their members against bad precedent like this. And yes, I'm aware that the agent for the first player picked in the second round would go out of his way to argue that he should be paid like a first round pick.

There is an easy solution to this. Since Goodell is so clearly influenced by public perception and group thought in his judgements, he could simply post a poll on nfl.com asking Which Team Should Get the Patriots #1 draft pick? and award the pick to the winner.Problem solved.

 

[Joe Bryant]

sources have said the NFL is going to fine Belichick $500,000. The fine has to be paid by Belichick himself and cannot be paid by the team's owner, Robert Kraft.

Yeah, ok. If this is indeed the penalty, it seems about right to me.

Exactly. You cheated and broke the rules. But we trust you to pay all this out of your own pocket with no extra "make up" perks from Kraft along the way. That is comical.J

It may seem symbolic IN THIS CASE, but the precedent of fining the coach is an important one to the next coach who considers doing this. What if it's some first year head coach getting $750,000 from a cheap owner as a temporary solution on a bad team? He has all the motivation in the world to cheat, but a fine like this is going to make him think twice.

Sure. But I think THIS CASE is really the primary focus of this case isn't it?J

 

[jonessed]

Favre made a commit the other day that all they would have to tell him is Cover Two or some other formation. Two word signals would allow Brady to easily slice and dice any defense. NOTE - The Steelers said they take special precautions when they play the Patriots. Interesting how New England seems to have a lot more trouble when they play the Steelers.

NE has beaten Pittsburgh 4 of the last 5 times that they have played. Maybe Pitt should use extra-super-de-duper special precautions when playing NE, because the special ones don't seem to be working.

I have to admit... BB has all of the other teams out-cheated for sure. The guy is just flat good.

 

[mad sweeney]

If true, not enough. Nothing less than a suspension is appropriate.

What does that accomplish? If you suspend the coach for 4 weeks, it would only benefit the Patriots' next 4 opponents (SD, Buffalo, Cincy, and Cleveland).

Aren't you the one who just said "FORFEIT"? Who does that benefit and who does it hurt?

It helps the team that was the victim of the cheating and hurts the team that cheated. It wasn't like this game affected any of the other teams in the league...

I know it's been talked about before, but the Butterfly Effect of giving a forfeit is too great. Teams that lose by a terribly wrong call that's easily proven could claim the same unfairness in outcome. It's a can of worms. The fact that this is complicit in making a team lose should be taken into account when setting the punishment. And IMO, they would have to have dead to rights proof that the Pats used this info in the game.

 

[reg]

What is Belichick's annual salary?J

If it's anything more than 5 mill, then I don't think the fine is enough.Tice was fined 100k for scalping tickets and his salary was only 1 mill at the time. IMO, Belicheck should get at minimum 10% pay docked, but more likely 20%+

 

[1huskerfan]

Belichick not only has to pay the $500k, he also will have to pay the income tax on that dinero. That's a fairly large hit if you consider it's after-tax income. And that doesn't even get to what the opportunity cost is, and you know that a guy in that tax bracket has a good financial planner getting him a high % return on his money. This definitely stings, no two ways about it.

I am betting his accountant will find a way to deduct it from his taxes without breaking a sweat.

 

[Pittsburgh United]

NOTE - The Steelers said they take special precautions when they play the Patriots. Interesting how New England seems to have a lot more trouble when they play the Steelers.

The Patriots are 4-1 against the Steelers in the Belichick era.

Dec 9 - Steelers vs. Cheatriots. I can't wait to see us plaster you jagoffs this year.

 

[reg]

Belichick not only has to pay the $500k, he also will have to pay the income tax on that dinero. That's a fairly large hit if you consider it's after-tax income. And that doesn't even get to what the opportunity cost is, and you know that a guy in that tax bracket has a good financial planner getting him a high % return on his money. This definitely stings, no two ways about it.

I am betting his accountant will find a way to deduct it from his taxes without breaking a sweat.

player fines go to charity, so i would think coach ones do too.

 

[Marc Levin]

If true, not enough. Nothing less than a suspension is appropriate.

What does that accomplish? If you suspend the coach for 4 weeks, it would only benefit the Patriots' next 4 opponents (SD, Buffalo, Cincy, and Cleveland).

Aren't you the one who just said "FORFEIT"? Who does that benefit and who does it hurt?

It helps the team that was the victim of the cheating and hurts the team that cheated. It wasn't like this game affected any of the other teams in the league...

I know it's been talked about before, but the Butterfly Effect of giving a forfeit is too great. Teams that lose by a terribly wrong call that's easily proven could claim the same unfairness in outcome. .

No, they can't - GregR posted the commish's powers in light of an "unfairt act" in the "Big Thread" There is a provision stating that the grant is not to allow challenges to on the field rulings.

 

[Joe Bryant]

What is Belichick's annual salary?J

If it's anything more than 5 mill, then I don't think the fine is enough.Tice was fined 100k for scalping tickets and his salary was only 1 mill at the time. IMO, Belicheck should get at minimum 10% pay docked, but more likely 20%+

I'd agree reg. IF IF IF it turns out he was cheating as he's being accused of (which is different from the crime of just having a video tape camera on the sidelines), something like a 4 game suspsension (and losing the game checks associated with those four games) seems right. Do coaches get game checks like players? Or is their salary spread out over the year? I don't know that. Bottom line, if this is true, it feels like losing 25% of your salary plus the hit of the team losing you for four games seems right.A fine that you really truly honest to goodness can't have the honor pay for you or you'll be in really big trouble for real mister is a joke.J

 

[mad sweeney]

Forfeiting 2 high draft picks, possibly a 1st and 3rd, is significant.

I think i heard somewhere on ESPN, that the players union wouldn't allow a 1st round pick to be taken. Maybe a 2nd and 3rd.

I'd be curious to know the NFLPAs influence over non NFLPs or team punishments. In Upshaws words, "I work for current NFL players". Not saying you're wrong, just don't see how the NFLPA has anything to do with this.

my thoughts as well

First round picks are paid more than second round picks. If they take away one of the 32 first round picks, then one of the top 32 players in the draft will take a substantial pay cut. That might not seem like a big deal, but union's have to defend their members against bad precedent like this. And yes, I'm aware that the agent for the first player picked in the second round would go out of his way to argue that he should be paid like a first round pick.

But until they are drafted (and signed?) are they considered NFL union members? I can see the sense in your theory but like Upshaw says, he works for current NFL players and no one entering the draft is a current NFL player. Or are they? At what point do draftees come under the influence of the NFLPA.

 

[PatsFanCT]

If true, not enough. Nothing less than a suspension is appropriate.

What does that accomplish? If you suspend the coach for 4 weeks, it would only benefit the Patriots' next 4 opponents (SD, Buffalo, Cincy, and Cleveland).

Aren't you the one who just said "FORFEIT"? Who does that benefit and who does it hurt?

It helps the team that was the victim of the cheating and hurts the team that cheated. It wasn't like this game affected any of the other teams in the league...

I know it's been talked about before, but the Butterfly Effect of giving a forfeit is too great. Teams that lose by a terribly wrong call that's easily proven could claim the same unfairness in outcome. It's a can of worms. The fact that this is complicit in making a team lose should be taken into account when setting the punishment. And IMO, they would have to have dead to rights proof that the Pats used this info in the game.

Well, besides all that, the Pats will win their division this year, that I'm almost certain. If the Jets are in the wild card hunt, somehow, and win it over a handful of other teams because of a forfeit, there will certainly be a fallout from that that nobody wants to see

 

[bostonfred]

sources have said the NFL is going to fine Belichick $500,000. The fine has to be paid by Belichick himself and cannot be paid by the team's owner, Robert Kraft.

Yeah, ok. If this is indeed the penalty, it seems about right to me.

Exactly. You cheated and broke the rules. But we trust you to pay all this out of your own pocket with no extra "make up" perks from Kraft along the way. That is comical.J

It may seem symbolic IN THIS CASE, but the precedent of fining the coach is an important one to the next coach who considers doing this. What if it's some first year head coach getting $750,000 from a cheap owner as a temporary solution on a bad team? He has all the motivation in the world to cheat, but a fine like this is going to make him think twice.

Sure. But I think THIS CASE is really the primary focus of this case isn't it?J

A first year commissioner doesn't have the luxury of making precedent setting decisions like this in a vacuum. To make a comparison to how this message board is moderated, think about how much people whine when they get a timeout for saying something that some other guy said and didn't get in trouble at all. Now instead of a timeout, make it a half million dollar fine and a couple of first day picks in a multi billion dollar business. If Goodell wants to run a successful business he needs to be fair in this case, but you also need to be fair and consistent in the long run.

 

[mad sweeney]

If true, not enough. Nothing less than a suspension is appropriate.

What does that accomplish? If you suspend the coach for 4 weeks, it would only benefit the Patriots' next 4 opponents (SD, Buffalo, Cincy, and Cleveland).

Aren't you the one who just said "FORFEIT"? Who does that benefit and who does it hurt?

It helps the team that was the victim of the cheating and hurts the team that cheated. It wasn't like this game affected any of the other teams in the league...

I know it's been talked about before, but the Butterfly Effect of giving a forfeit is too great. Teams that lose by a terribly wrong call that's easily proven could claim the same unfairness in outcome. .

No, they can't - GregR posted the commish's powers in light of an "unfairt act" in the "Big Thread" There is a provision stating that the grant is not toallow challenges to on the field rulings.

I'm not saying he could, it would just open the door for more argument about that kind of scenario. Especially if they can't prove that BB used the info to beat the Jets. And in an effort to not go through 20+ pages, what does it say as far as forfeits in cases of administrative cheating?

 

[bostonfred]

Forfeiting 2 high draft picks, possibly a 1st and 3rd, is significant.

I think i heard somewhere on ESPN, that the players union wouldn't allow a 1st round pick to be taken. Maybe a 2nd and 3rd.

I'd be curious to know the NFLPAs influence over non NFLPs or team punishments. In Upshaws words, "I work for current NFL players". Not saying you're wrong, just don't see how the NFLPA has anything to do with this.

my thoughts as well

First round picks are paid more than second round picks. If they take away one of the 32 first round picks, then one of the top 32 players in the draft will take a substantial pay cut. That might not seem like a big deal, but union's have to defend their members against bad precedent like this. And yes, I'm aware that the agent for the first player picked in the second round would go out of his way to argue that he should be paid like a first round pick.

But until they are drafted (and signed?) are they considered NFL union members? I can see the sense in your theory but like Upshaw says, he works for current NFL players and no one entering the draft is a current NFL player. Or are they? At what point do draftees come under the influence of the NFLPA.

The CBA determines the size of the rookie pool. Rookie salaries are absolutely part of the NFLPA's domain.

 

[mad sweeney]

Forfeiting 2 high draft picks, possibly a 1st and 3rd, is significant.

I think i heard somewhere on ESPN, that the players union wouldn't allow a 1st round pick to be taken. Maybe a 2nd and 3rd.

I'd be curious to know the NFLPAs influence over non NFLPs or team punishments. In Upshaws words, "I work for current NFL players". Not saying you're wrong, just don't see how the NFLPA has anything to do with this.

my thoughts as well

First round picks are paid more than second round picks. If they take away one of the 32 first round picks, then one of the top 32 players in the draft will take a substantial pay cut. That might not seem like a big deal, but union's have to defend their members against bad precedent like this. And yes, I'm aware that the agent for the first player picked in the second round would go out of his way to argue that he should be paid like a first round pick.

But until they are drafted (and signed?) are they considered NFL union members? I can see the sense in your theory but like Upshaw says, he works for current NFL players and no one entering the draft is a current NFL player. Or are they? At what point do draftees come under the influence of the NFLPA.

The CBA determines the size of the rookie pool. Rookie salaries are absolutely part of the NFLPA's domain.

How does that transfer to the PA being able to regulate punishments handed out to teams by the league?

 

[Joe Bryant]

A first year commissioner doesn't have the luxury of making precedent setting decisions like this in a vacuum. To make a comparison to how this message board is moderated, think about how much people whine when they get a timeout for saying something that some other guy said and didn't get in trouble at all.

Are you assuming other coaches are taping and stealing signals too?J

 

[Marc Levin]

What is Belichick's annual salary?J

If it's anything more than 5 mill, then I don't think the fine is enough.Tice was fined 100k for scalping tickets and his salary was only 1 mill at the time. IMO, Belicheck should get at minimum 10% pay docked, but more likely 20%+

I'd agree reg. IF IF IF it turns out he was cheating as he's being accused of (which is different from the crime of just having a video tape camera on the sidelines),

I'm not sure the commish is going to make this distinction. I think it has already pretty much been determined that the camera was pointed at the Jets sideline and the tape they seized would. I bet,. clearly show that.I think whether BB cheated is not seriously up for debate.Also, pointing at the def. coaches is exactly why the rule against ANY video equipment on the sidelines exists - I am not sure the commish would be willing to hear any arguments in mitigation. You've got a camera on the sideline against the rules, you are breaking a rule designed to prevent cheating,. End o story.If the tape shows the camera was pointed at the Jets coaches, you get an even higher penalty. (ie - the 1st rounder they are talking about).I think 10% of his salary is appropriate if he had a video camera on the sideline. Anything additional (suspension/picks) is based on whether they see the tape and see the camera was pointed at the Jets coaches.

 

[bostonfred]

What is Belichick's annual salary?J

If it's anything more than 5 mill, then I don't think the fine is enough.Tice was fined 100k for scalping tickets and his salary was only 1 mill at the time. IMO, Belicheck should get at minimum 10% pay docked, but more likely 20%+

I'd agree reg. IF IF IF it turns out he was cheating as he's being accused of (which is different from the crime of just having a video tape camera on the sidelines), something like a 4 game suspsension (and losing the game checks associated with those four games) seems right. Do coaches get game checks like players? Or is their salary spread out over the year? I don't know that. Bottom line, if this is true, it feels like losing 25% of your salary plus the hit of the team losing you for four games seems right.A fine that you really truly honest to goodness can't have the honor pay for you or you'll be in really big trouble for real mister is a joke.J

One problem with a lengthy suspension for the head coach is that you're basically screwing the Jets twice. First, they lose the game with the alleged cheating. You could argue that they probably would have lost anyways, or you could argue that they should have won the game. I don't much care about that. They have a reason to feel damaged. Second, their division rival Bills would get to play a Belichickless team. Another problem in this specific case is that the league loses out on another marquis matchup. When the league lost Vick, the value of the TV contracts went down. I don't care what you thought of the guy as a quarterback, when Atlanta was on a nationally televised game, people tuned in to watch Michael Vick. I know I did. Now you're looking at possibly suspending the head coach of the top team in the NFL for four games during what, the Pats-Chargers rematch? That's no good. The Pats-Colts rematch? Again, the networks would be flipping out. The league has a financial interest in making sure that they maintain viewership. Similarly, think about the hit the league would take from gamblers if the new commissioner in his first full year broke ages of precedent by overturning the results of a game that had already been played. The books in Vegas know better than to leave that kind of thing to chance and they have a little disclaimer on the backs of their tickets, but if you overturn a game you're going to get a lot of pissed off people who are, for better or worse, a big reason for the league's popularity. I'm not saying any of those should supercede fairness in this case, but it has to be weighing in on Goodell's mind.

 

[Marc Levin]

Forfeiting 2 high draft picks, possibly a 1st and 3rd, is significant.

I think i heard somewhere on ESPN, that the players union wouldn't allow a 1st round pick to be taken. Maybe a 2nd and 3rd.

I'd be curious to know the NFLPAs influence over non NFLPs or team punishments. In Upshaws words, "I work for current NFL players". Not saying you're wrong, just don't see how the NFLPA has anything to do with this.

my thoughts as well

First round picks are paid more than second round picks. If they take away one of the 32 first round picks, then one of the top 32 players in the draft will take a substantial pay cut. That might not seem like a big deal, but union's have to defend their members against bad precedent like this. And yes, I'm aware that the agent for the first player picked in the second round would go out of his way to argue that he should be paid like a first round pick.

But until they are drafted (and signed?) are they considered NFL union members? I can see the sense in your theory but like Upshaw says, he works for current NFL players and no one entering the draft is a current NFL player. Or are they? At what point do draftees come under the influence of the NFLPA.

The CBA determines the size of the rookie pool. Rookie salaries are absolutely part of the NFLPA's domain.

Yup, but what is their jurisdiction to interfere in a decision taking away a team's yet to be made pick as a penalty for cheating? No fewer players will be drafted, nor will any drafted players' salaries be affected.

 

[redman]

I hope this is wrong. The only way to truly punish this team and the coach is to suspend him (no team contact at all) for a significant amount of games (no less than 4, IMO). That's the way to make them regret this whole thing. That would hurt BB more than anything else.

Agreed. They pull this crap in college when a coach is involved in recruiting violations. Then the coach moves on and the team is screwed. The guy with the camera and the head coach should be the ones who get punished. If they are taking two high draft picks then the punishment definitely doesn't fit the crime. It's almost comical to hear the ignorant discuss this topic. Those who spend even 5 minutes actually thinking about this can only reach one conclusion:there's no way in hell that stealing those hand signals could ever help them. They would never have time to watch the film and figure out the signals during a game. Impossible. And even if they had their eye on future games, no coach worth his salt would ever keep the same signals.

No you've got it all wrong. BB had Stephen Hawkins on retainer and at halftime he hosts the videos on YouTube and Hawkins runs some algorithms and predicts every play the opposing team will run for the next 7 years. Then BB uses that data molest children and abuse the elderly.

You mean Stephen Hawking.

You some kind of Norman Einstein there, egghead?

 

[bostonfred]

A first year commissioner doesn't have the luxury of making precedent setting decisions like this in a vacuum. To make a comparison to how this message board is moderated, think about how much people whine when they get a timeout for saying something that some other guy said and didn't get in trouble at all.

Are you assuming other coaches are taping and stealing signals too?J

1) Of course they are. This has been discussed ad nauseum in the media. Do you really believe the Patriots are the only team that does this? 2) For the purposes of this discussion, that's irrelevant. When the commissioner makes a ruling, they can't play the patented "I banned you because I don't like you" card. They have to think of the precedent it sets. That doesn't mean it can't be a harsh penalty. It means that, where you look at the penalty and say, "half a million, that's stupid, Belichick makes $3 million a year," some coach who makes 1/3 that is saying, oh ####.

 

[Marc Levin]

That doesn't mean it can't be a harsh penalty. It means that, where you look at the penalty and say, "half a million, that's stupid, Belichick makes $3 million a year," some coach who makes 1/3 that is saying, oh ####.

Agreed.

 

[Joe Bryant]

What is Belichick's annual salary?J

If it's anything more than 5 mill, then I don't think the fine is enough.Tice was fined 100k for scalping tickets and his salary was only 1 mill at the time. IMO, Belicheck should get at minimum 10% pay docked, but more likely 20%+

I'd agree reg. IF IF IF it turns out he was cheating as he's being accused of (which is different from the crime of just having a video tape camera on the sidelines), something like a 4 game suspsension (and losing the game checks associated with those four games) seems right. Do coaches get game checks like players? Or is their salary spread out over the year? I don't know that. Bottom line, if this is true, it feels like losing 25% of your salary plus the hit of the team losing you for four games seems right.A fine that you really truly honest to goodness can't have the honor pay for you or you'll be in really big trouble for real mister is a joke.J

One problem with a lengthy suspension for the head coach is that you're basically screwing the Jets twice. First, they lose the game with the alleged cheating. You could argue that they probably would have lost anyways, or you could argue that they should have won the game. I don't much care about that. They have a reason to feel damaged. Second, their division rival Bills would get to play a Belichickless team. Another problem in this specific case is that the league loses out on another marquis matchup. When the league lost Vick, the value of the TV contracts went down. I don't care what you thought of the guy as a quarterback, when Atlanta was on a nationally televised game, people tuned in to watch Michael Vick. I know I did. Now you're looking at possibly suspending the head coach of the top team in the NFL for four games during what, the Pats-Chargers rematch? That's no good. The Pats-Colts rematch? Again, the networks would be flipping out. The league has a financial interest in making sure that they maintain viewership. Similarly, think about the hit the league would take from gamblers if the new commissioner in his first full year broke ages of precedent by overturning the results of a game that had already been played. The books in Vegas know better than to leave that kind of thing to chance and they have a little disclaimer on the backs of their tickets, but if you overturn a game you're going to get a lot of pissed off people who are, for better or worse, a big reason for the league's popularity. I'm not saying any of those should supercede fairness in this case, but it has to be weighing in on Goodell's mind.

I'm sure they're weighed.But I don't know that many Jets fans would object to a 4 game suspension. They'll gladly take the "negative" of the Patriots losing 4 games without Belichick.I don't know about the TV angle. Losing a player is one thing. I think you could make the argument a Belichick-less Patriot team might be an even more compelling TV draw. I mean how great would it be for the Pats to thumb their nose at the commish as they went out and smoked the Chargers without their coach? That would be movie drama stuff.And I would say the idea of the league by ever overturning the results of a game are miniscule. Just won't happen I don't think.J

 

[bostonfred]

Forfeiting 2 high draft picks, possibly a 1st and 3rd, is significant.

I think i heard somewhere on ESPN, that the players union wouldn't allow a 1st round pick to be taken. Maybe a 2nd and 3rd.

I'd be curious to know the NFLPAs influence over non NFLPs or team punishments. In Upshaws words, "I work for current NFL players". Not saying you're wrong, just don't see how the NFLPA has anything to do with this.

my thoughts as well

First round picks are paid more than second round picks. If they take away one of the 32 first round picks, then one of the top 32 players in the draft will take a substantial pay cut. That might not seem like a big deal, but union's have to defend their members against bad precedent like this. And yes, I'm aware that the agent for the first player picked in the second round would go out of his way to argue that he should be paid like a first round pick.

But until they are drafted (and signed?) are they considered NFL union members? I can see the sense in your theory but like Upshaw says, he works for current NFL players and no one entering the draft is a current NFL player. Or are they? At what point do draftees come under the influence of the NFLPA.

The CBA determines the size of the rookie pool. Rookie salaries are absolutely part of the NFLPA's domain.

Yup, but what is their jurisdiction to interfere in a decision taking away a team's yet to be made pick as a penalty for cheating? No fewer players will be drafted, nor will any drafted players' salaries be affected.

That's easy to say when you're not a first year commissioner screwing with the union that has traditionally given your multi billion dollar business favorable deals.

 

[GregR_2]

If true, not enough. Nothing less than a suspension is appropriate.

What does that accomplish? If you suspend the coach for 4 weeks, it would only benefit the Patriots' next 4 opponents (SD, Buffalo, Cincy, and Cleveland).

Aren't you the one who just said "FORFEIT"? Who does that benefit and who does it hurt?

It helps the team that was the victim of the cheating and hurts the team that cheated. It wasn't like this game affected any of the other teams in the league...

I know it's been talked about before, but the Butterfly Effect of giving a forfeit is too great. Teams that lose by a terribly wrong call that's easily proven could claim the same unfairness in outcome. .

No, they can't - GregR posted the commish's powers in light of an "unfairt act" in the "Big Thread" There is a provision stating that the grant is not toallow challenges to on the field rulings.

I'm not saying he could, it would just open the door for more argument about that kind of scenario. Especially if they can't prove that BB used the info to beat the Jets. And in an effort to not go through 20+ pages, what does it say as far as forfeits in cases of administrative cheating?

Here's the post I copied the section from the rulebook: http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...t&p=7332935I didn't copy Article 2 as I didn't think it would be of interest, but here it is:

Article 2: The authority and measures provided for in this entire Section 2 do not constitute a protest machinery for NFL clubs to avail themselves of in the event a dispute arises over the result of a game. The investigation called for in this Section 2 will be conducted solely on the Commissioner's initiative to review an act or occurrence that he deems so extraordinary or unfair that the result of the game in question would be inequitable to one of the participating teams. The Commissioner will not apply his authority in cases of complaints by clubs concerning judgment errors or routine errors of omission by game officials. Games involving such complaints will continue to stand as completed.

As for forfeits, the only place I saw it in the rules was in the ways the Commissioner can penalize for an Unfair Act, which I think could be said to qualify here.Article 3: The Commissioner's powers under this Section 2 include the imposition of monetary fines and draft-choice forfeitures, suspension of persons involved in unfair acts, and, if appropriate, the reversal of a game's result or the rescheduling of a game, either from the beginning or from the point at which the extraordinary act occurred. [... rules on rescheduling skipped...] In all cases, the Commisioner will conduct a full investigation, including the opportunity for hearings, use of game videotape, and any other procedure he deems appropriate.

 

[NYCGangGreen]

I just want to say that I would love it if Chad Johnson sends the Patriots KODAK cameras before their matchup in October.

But I doubt Marvin would let that happen.

 

[Joe Bryant]

A first year commissioner doesn't have the luxury of making precedent setting decisions like this in a vacuum. To make a comparison to how this message board is moderated, think about how much people whine when they get a timeout for saying something that some other guy said and didn't get in trouble at all.

Are you assuming other coaches are taping and stealing signals too?J

1) Of course they are. This has been discussed ad nauseum in the media. Do you really believe the Patriots are the only team that does this? 2) For the purposes of this discussion, that's irrelevant. When the commissioner makes a ruling, they can't play the patented "I banned you because I don't like you" card. They have to think of the precedent it sets. That doesn't mean it can't be a harsh penalty. It means that, where you look at the penalty and say, "half a million, that's stupid, Belichick makes $3 million a year," some coach who makes 1/3 that is saying, oh ####.

You really believe that other teams are videotaping coaches signals, breaking the code and then using that information to let the offense know in advance what defensive scheme is coming at them? What makes you think that? Who else has been busted here?

Those are super serious accusations. Start naming names if you really think that's the case.

And it's entirely relevant to the point you made. You said it was like one guy getting banned in the FFA for saying the exact same thing others were doing. I don't have any reason to believe other teams are being accused of this kind of cheating.

J

 

[Marc Levin]

That's easy to say when you're not a first year commissioner screwing with the union that has traditionally given your multi billion dollar business favorable deals.

Yeah - there's a big issue there.Doesn't the CBA come up for renewal in the next couple of years?

 

[bostonfred]

What is Belichick's annual salary?J

If it's anything more than 5 mill, then I don't think the fine is enough.Tice was fined 100k for scalping tickets and his salary was only 1 mill at the time. IMO, Belicheck should get at minimum 10% pay docked, but more likely 20%+

I'd agree reg. IF IF IF it turns out he was cheating as he's being accused of (which is different from the crime of just having a video tape camera on the sidelines), something like a 4 game suspsension (and losing the game checks associated with those four games) seems right. Do coaches get game checks like players? Or is their salary spread out over the year? I don't know that. Bottom line, if this is true, it feels like losing 25% of your salary plus the hit of the team losing you for four games seems right.A fine that you really truly honest to goodness can't have the honor pay for you or you'll be in really big trouble for real mister is a joke.J

One problem with a lengthy suspension for the head coach is that you're basically screwing the Jets twice. First, they lose the game with the alleged cheating. You could argue that they probably would have lost anyways, or you could argue that they should have won the game. I don't much care about that. They have a reason to feel damaged. Second, their division rival Bills would get to play a Belichickless team. Another problem in this specific case is that the league loses out on another marquis matchup. When the league lost Vick, the value of the TV contracts went down. I don't care what you thought of the guy as a quarterback, when Atlanta was on a nationally televised game, people tuned in to watch Michael Vick. I know I did. Now you're looking at possibly suspending the head coach of the top team in the NFL for four games during what, the Pats-Chargers rematch? That's no good. The Pats-Colts rematch? Again, the networks would be flipping out. The league has a financial interest in making sure that they maintain viewership. Similarly, think about the hit the league would take from gamblers if the new commissioner in his first full year broke ages of precedent by overturning the results of a game that had already been played. The books in Vegas know better than to leave that kind of thing to chance and they have a little disclaimer on the backs of their tickets, but if you overturn a game you're going to get a lot of pissed off people who are, for better or worse, a big reason for the league's popularity. I'm not saying any of those should supercede fairness in this case, but it has to be weighing in on Goodell's mind.

I'm sure they're weighed.But I don't know that many Jets fans would object to a 4 game suspension. They'll gladly take the "negative" of the Patriots losing 4 games without Belichick.I don't know about the TV angle. Losing a player is one thing. I think you could make the argument a Belichick-less Patriot team might be an even more compelling TV draw. I mean how great would it be for the Pats to thumb their nose at the commish as they went out and smoked the Chargers without their coach? That would be movie drama stuff.And I would say the idea of the league by ever overturning the results of a game are miniscule. Just won't happen I don't think.J

I think we mostly agree. This shouldn't be about what the Jets fans would object to or what they want. This should be about finding a fair penalty for breaking a rule that does not have one specified, and because of the realities of business, it will have to do with what the networks want, too. You may be right though that a Belichickless Pats game would be a better draw than one where he coached, I hadn't really thought about it that way. I guess I'm watching them either way.

 

[mad sweeney]

I just want to say that I would love it if Chad Johnson sends the Patriots KODAK cameras before their matchup in October.But I doubt Marvin would let that happen.

Oh yeah, cuz Marvin is SOOOOO good at keeping his team under control...

 

[Tau837]

$500K fine to Belicheck

$250K fine to team

Loss of 1st round 2008 pick if they make the playoffs this year

Just announced on ESPN.

 

[Pittsburgh United]

SC guy just cut into WVU game and announced the following penalty - he said the NFL just passed it down:

Fine 500k for BB, 250k for the team. 1st round draft pick loss IF they make the post-season. No suspension.

This is garbage.

 

[GregR_2]

Ok, second time in two days I'm basically replying to myself that I'm wrong, in this case about the CBA. Went digging into the text and unless there is some supeseding section about the league's right to use draft picks as disciplinary measures, the CBA does spell out requirements for the draft:

ARTICLE XVI

COLLEGE DRAFT

Section 1. Time of Draft: There shall be an Annual Selection Meeting (the “College Draft” or “Draft”) each

League Year during the term of this Agreement and in the League Year immediately following the expiration or

termination of this Agreement, with respect to which the following rules shall apply:

Section 2. Number of Choices and Eligibility:

(a) The Draft shall consist of seven rounds, with each round consisting of the same number of selection

choices as there will be Clubs in the NFL the following League Year, plus a maximum number of additional

Compensatory Draft Selections equal to the number of Clubs then in the League, with such Compensatory Draft

Selections reserved for Clubs losing certain Unrestricted Free Agents. Each Draft shall be held between

February 14 and May 2, on a date which shall be determined by the Commissioner.

If the players wanted to challenge this I suppose they could since the draft would not have the right number of picks. Not sure though, I'm not a lawyer, but that's how it looks to me.But I still question what they have to gain by doing so.

Veteran player: So, hey! If they take away the Pats picks that means some guys aren't getting paid, right?

NFLPA lawyer: No, players are guaranteed a percentage of league revenues. Some rookies might not make quite as much, but the league still has to spend the same amount on players, so that would mean some veteran player will probably make more.

Veteran player: Yeah? Sounds great to me then!

Again, unless the Pats are far enough over the cap they decide to just pocket the money they would have spent on the rookie rather than using it to go get a free agent they wouldn't haev otherwise been able to afford.

 

[bostonfred]

A first year commissioner doesn't have the luxury of making precedent setting decisions like this in a vacuum. To make a comparison to how this message board is moderated, think about how much people whine when they get a timeout for saying something that some other guy said and didn't get in trouble at all.

Are you assuming other coaches are taping and stealing signals too?J

1) Of course they are. This has been discussed ad nauseum in the media. Do you really believe the Patriots are the only team that does this? 2) For the purposes of this discussion, that's irrelevant. When the commissioner makes a ruling, they can't play the patented "I banned you because I don't like you" card. They have to think of the precedent it sets. That doesn't mean it can't be a harsh penalty. It means that, where you look at the penalty and say, "half a million, that's stupid, Belichick makes $3 million a year," some coach who makes 1/3 that is saying, oh ####.

You really believe that other teams are videotaping coaches signals, breaking the code and then using that information to let the offense know in advance what defensive scheme is coming at them? What makes you think that? Who else has been busted here?

Those are super serious accusations. Start naming names if you really think that's the case.

And it's entirely relevant to the point you made. You said it was like one guy getting banned in the FFA for saying the exact same thing others were doing. I don't have any reason to believe other teams are being accused of this kind of cheating.

J

Sure thing. Here you go:http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...t&p=7332273

 

[Obie Wan]

That seem equitable for a second offense. Lose a first, third, $500k and multi-game suspension.I saw that the League did circulate the How to Cheat legally memo reminding teams they can't tape opposing coaches.Read lips, take pictures, it's all good. But dare you to transfer onto a video tape ...

Pro video cameras have (or can) a microwave transmitter on them that can broadcast the image real time to a receiver. Say, in the coordinator's booth. From there they could have instant access to the signals. It's not just recording it, the term "recording devices" refers to cameras that record, but they do so much more than just record.

Mort has indicated that the Pats were using 4 different radio frequencies - only 1 of which was authorized for the QB headset.The video taping could have been a diversion and the camera was being used to tap into the QB headset and transmit the offense calls to the Pats box. Mort thought the PAts were also illegally miking their own defenders- so they could be getting the other team's play calls in real time.If this it true, a playoff ban and reduction in salary cap would be needed in addition to other penalties.