Honestly Can't Wait For Thursday For Once ***Official TNF Buffalo vs. New England Thread (+4, 44)*** (1 Viewer)

[Boston]

It's a little disrespectful to say those coaches only succeeded because of their QB. Outside of cherry picking a bit and ignoring coaches like Ditka, Harbaugh, Carroll, etc I could go on but I won't, you don't believe these coaches helped with the success of these QBs? It's a symbiotic relationship in many cases. BB's problem now is as much to do with his terrible GM skills as it is to do with losing Brady IMHO. Look no further than his atrocious draft picks and free agent hires on the offensive side of the ball. The skill around Mac is next level bad and that's all on BB.

Complete BS it is disrespectful and that list is far from cherry picking…very far…you also totally missed the point…the point is it usually takes two…a very good Coach and a very good QB…the list of talented QBs who played for subpar Coaches and floundered or did not reach the top is a long one (and vice versa..a good QB can only cover up bad coaching so much)…that is not a knock on either position but instead historical fact…when you look at the Hall-Fame it is not a fluke that many QBs and Coaches inducted often match up.

Usually takes two? I'm not sure it takes BOTH. Sometimes it takes only one, sometimes neither to get it done any given Sunday, ANY championship Sunday.

Peyton Manning - John Fox (QB)
Nick Foles - Doug Pederson (Neither?)
Russel Wilson - Pete Carroll (Coach)
Jim McMahon - Mike Ditka (Coach)
Tom Coughlin - Eli Manning (Manning's a debatable HoF QB because of his SB wins, but two luck plays got it done. - Coach with an *)
John Harbaugh - Joe Flacco (Coach)
Brian Billick - Trent Dilfer (Neither?)
Tony Dungy - Brad Johnson (Coach)

Those are just some examples off the top of my head from recent memory, but to my eye it would seem coaches can do it without a star QB, but it's difficult next to impossible with a QB but no coach.

Only one of those Coaches won more than 1 Title (and he had a borderline H-o-F QB) and Ditka, Fox, Billick, Carrol and Harbaugh won with great defenses and not sure why Dungy and Johnson are listed...it was Gruden and it was another high-end defense...as I said before, there are outliers and no doubt it can happen but if you look at the true greats at QB and HC (i.e. the Hall-of-Famers) and teams that are looked at as the great ones they more often than not have that common thread.

 

[Jacob's Ladder]

It's a little disrespectful to say those coaches only succeeded because of their QB. Outside of cherry picking a bit and ignoring coaches like Ditka, Harbaugh, Carroll, etc I could go on but I won't, you don't believe these coaches helped with the success of these QBs? It's a symbiotic relationship in many cases. BB's problem now is as much to do with his terrible GM skills as it is to do with losing Brady IMHO. Look no further than his atrocious draft picks and free agent hires on the offensive side of the ball. The skill around Mac is next level bad and that's all on BB.

Complete BS it is disrespectful and that list is far from cherry picking…very far…you also totally missed the point…the point is it usually takes two…a very good Coach and a very good QB…the list of talented QBs who played for subpar Coaches and floundered or did not reach the top is a long one (and vice versa..a good QB can only cover up bad coaching so much)…that is not a knock on either position but instead historical fact…when you look at the Hall-Fame it is not a fluke that many QBs and Coaches inducted often match up.

Usually takes two? I'm not sure it takes BOTH. Sometimes it takes only one, sometimes neither to get it done any given Sunday, ANY championship Sunday.

Peyton Manning - John Fox (QB)
Nick Foles - Doug Pederson (Neither?)
Russel Wilson - Pete Carroll (Coach)
Jim McMahon - Mike Ditka (Coach)
Tom Coughlin - Eli Manning (Manning's a debatable HoF QB because of his SB wins, but two luck plays got it done. - Coach with an *)
John Harbaugh - Joe Flacco (Coach)
Brian Billick - Trent Dilfer (Neither?)
Tony Dungy - Brad Johnson (Coach)

Those are just some examples off the top of my head from recent memory, but to my eye it would seem coaches can do it without a star QB, but it's difficult next to impossible with a QB but no coach.

Only one of those Coaches won more than 1 Title (and he had a borderline H-o-F QB) and Ditka, Fox, Billick, Carrol and Harbaugh won with great defenses and not sure why Dungy and Johnson are listed...it was Gruden and it was another high-end defense...as I said before, there are outliers and no doubt it can happen but if you look at the true greats at QB and HC (i.e. the Hall-of-Famers) and teams that are looked at as the great ones they more often than not have that common thread.

Dungy is listed because it was off the top of my head and I made a mistake. What's the crux of what you're trying to say? Are we talking about all of famers, dynasties, championships? What?

 

[Boston]

It's a little disrespectful to say those coaches only succeeded because of their QB. Outside of cherry picking a bit and ignoring coaches like Ditka, Harbaugh, Carroll, etc I could go on but I won't, you don't believe these coaches helped with the success of these QBs? It's a symbiotic relationship in many cases. BB's problem now is as much to do with his terrible GM skills as it is to do with losing Brady IMHO. Look no further than his atrocious draft picks and free agent hires on the offensive side of the ball. The skill around Mac is next level bad and that's all on BB.

Complete BS it is disrespectful and that list is far from cherry picking…very far…you also totally missed the point…the point is it usually takes two…a very good Coach and a very good QB…the list of talented QBs who played for subpar Coaches and floundered or did not reach the top is a long one (and vice versa..a good QB can only cover up bad coaching so much)…that is not a knock on either position but instead historical fact…when you look at the Hall-Fame it is not a fluke that many QBs and Coaches inducted often match up.

Usually takes two? I'm not sure it takes BOTH. Sometimes it takes only one, sometimes neither to get it done any given Sunday, ANY championship Sunday.

Peyton Manning - John Fox (QB)
Nick Foles - Doug Pederson (Neither?)
Russel Wilson - Pete Carroll (Coach)
Jim McMahon - Mike Ditka (Coach)
Tom Coughlin - Eli Manning (Manning's a debatable HoF QB because of his SB wins, but two luck plays got it done. - Coach with an *)
John Harbaugh - Joe Flacco (Coach)
Brian Billick - Trent Dilfer (Neither?)
Tony Dungy - Brad Johnson (Coach)

Those are just some examples off the top of my head from recent memory, but to my eye it would seem coaches can do it without a star QB, but it's difficult next to impossible with a QB but no coach.

Only one of those Coaches won more than 1 Title (and he had a borderline H-o-F QB) and Ditka, Fox, Billick, Carrol and Harbaugh won with great defenses and not sure why Dungy and Johnson are listed...it was Gruden and it was another high-end defense...as I said before, there are outliers and no doubt it can happen but if you look at the true greats at QB and HC (i.e. the Hall-of-Famers) and teams that are looked at as the great ones they more often than not have that common thread.

Dungy is listed because it was off the top of my head and I made a mistake. What's the crux of what you're trying to say? Are we talking about all of famers, dynasties, championships? What?

If you read my original post it was pretty clear...here it is again:

Here is the dirty little secret of coaching and QBs...in the history of the NFL almost all the great Coaches had a big time QB and almost all the great QBs had a very good coach.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Which teams would even be a consideration that have any of those ingredients? CLE? DEN? JAC? CHI? ARI? I can't really see Bill moving on to any of those teams.

Hello Jerry? It's Bill. Let's talk.

 

[Anarchy99]

Which teams would even be a consideration that have any of those ingredients? CLE? DEN? JAC? CHI? ARI? I can't really see Bill moving on to any of those teams.

Hello Jerry? It's Bill. Let's talk.

You seriously think BB would have any interest in or tolerate Jerry interfering with the day to day operations of the team? I would suggest over his dead body. Bill would 99.99% only take another gig if he had total control.

 

[Jacob's Ladder]

It's a little disrespectful to say those coaches only succeeded because of their QB. Outside of cherry picking a bit and ignoring coaches like Ditka, Harbaugh, Carroll, etc I could go on but I won't, you don't believe these coaches helped with the success of these QBs? It's a symbiotic relationship in many cases. BB's problem now is as much to do with his terrible GM skills as it is to do with losing Brady IMHO. Look no further than his atrocious draft picks and free agent hires on the offensive side of the ball. The skill around Mac is next level bad and that's all on BB.

Complete BS it is disrespectful and that list is far from cherry picking…very far…you also totally missed the point…the point is it usually takes two…a very good Coach and a very good QB…the list of talented QBs who played for subpar Coaches and floundered or did not reach the top is a long one (and vice versa..a good QB can only cover up bad coaching so much)…that is not a knock on either position but instead historical fact…when you look at the Hall-Fame it is not a fluke that many QBs and Coaches inducted often match up.

Usually takes two? I'm not sure it takes BOTH. Sometimes it takes only one, sometimes neither to get it done any given Sunday, ANY championship Sunday.

Peyton Manning - John Fox (QB)
Nick Foles - Doug Pederson (Neither?)
Russel Wilson - Pete Carroll (Coach)
Jim McMahon - Mike Ditka (Coach)
Tom Coughlin - Eli Manning (Manning's a debatable HoF QB because of his SB wins, but two luck plays got it done. - Coach with an *)
John Harbaugh - Joe Flacco (Coach)
Brian Billick - Trent Dilfer (Neither?)
Tony Dungy - Brad Johnson (Coach)

Those are just some examples off the top of my head from recent memory, but to my eye it would seem coaches can do it without a star QB, but it's difficult next to impossible with a QB but no coach.

Only one of those Coaches won more than 1 Title (and he had a borderline H-o-F QB) and Ditka, Fox, Billick, Carrol and Harbaugh won with great defenses and not sure why Dungy and Johnson are listed...it was Gruden and it was another high-end defense...as I said before, there are outliers and no doubt it can happen but if you look at the true greats at QB and HC (i.e. the Hall-of-Famers) and teams that are looked at as the great ones they more often than not have that common thread.

Dungy is listed because it was off the top of my head and I made a mistake. What's the crux of what you're trying to say? Are we talking about all of famers, dynasties, championships? What?

If you read my original post it was pretty clear...here it is again:

Here is the dirty little secret of coaching and QBs...in the history of the NFL almost all the great Coaches had a big time QB and almost all the great QBs had a very good coach.

Well I guess we can agree to disagree. A lot depends on our definitions of great, good and big-time, but I see it a little differently than you. On good teams, I feel like great coaching can cover up holes created by average QBs whereas I think history dictates it's a lot harder for a great QB to cover up holes an average head coach can create. If you have a below average QB or head coach, I don't think it matters how good the head coach or QB are respectively. I can't think of any modern examples where a teams succeeded (SB or SB contender) with either a below average QB or below average head coach.

 

[Boston]

It's a little disrespectful to say those coaches only succeeded because of their QB. Outside of cherry picking a bit and ignoring coaches like Ditka, Harbaugh, Carroll, etc I could go on but I won't, you don't believe these coaches helped with the success of these QBs? It's a symbiotic relationship in many cases. BB's problem now is as much to do with his terrible GM skills as it is to do with losing Brady IMHO. Look no further than his atrocious draft picks and free agent hires on the offensive side of the ball. The skill around Mac is next level bad and that's all on BB.

Complete BS it is disrespectful and that list is far from cherry picking…very far…you also totally missed the point…the point is it usually takes two…a very good Coach and a very good QB…the list of talented QBs who played for subpar Coaches and floundered or did not reach the top is a long one (and vice versa..a good QB can only cover up bad coaching so much)…that is not a knock on either position but instead historical fact…when you look at the Hall-Fame it is not a fluke that many QBs and Coaches inducted often match up.

Usually takes two? I'm not sure it takes BOTH. Sometimes it takes only one, sometimes neither to get it done any given Sunday, ANY championship Sunday.

Peyton Manning - John Fox (QB)
Nick Foles - Doug Pederson (Neither?)
Russel Wilson - Pete Carroll (Coach)
Jim McMahon - Mike Ditka (Coach)
Tom Coughlin - Eli Manning (Manning's a debatable HoF QB because of his SB wins, but two luck plays got it done. - Coach with an *)
John Harbaugh - Joe Flacco (Coach)
Brian Billick - Trent Dilfer (Neither?)
Tony Dungy - Brad Johnson (Coach)

Those are just some examples off the top of my head from recent memory, but to my eye it would seem coaches can do it without a star QB, but it's difficult next to impossible with a QB but no coach.

Only one of those Coaches won more than 1 Title (and he had a borderline H-o-F QB) and Ditka, Fox, Billick, Carrol and Harbaugh won with great defenses and not sure why Dungy and Johnson are listed...it was Gruden and it was another high-end defense...as I said before, there are outliers and no doubt it can happen but if you look at the true greats at QB and HC (i.e. the Hall-of-Famers) and teams that are looked at as the great ones they more often than not have that common thread.

Dungy is listed because it was off the top of my head and I made a mistake. What's the crux of what you're trying to say? Are we talking about all of famers, dynasties, championships? What?

If you read my original post it was pretty clear...here it is again:

Here is the dirty little secret of coaching and QBs...in the history of the NFL almost all the great Coaches had a big time QB and almost all the great QBs had a very good coach.

Well I guess we can agree to disagree. A lot depends on our definitions of great, good and big-time, but I see it a little differently than you. On good teams, I feel like great coaching can cover up holes created by average QBs whereas I think history dictates it's a lot harder for a great QB to cover up holes an average head coach can create. If you have a below average QB or head coach, I don't think it matters how good the head coach or QB are respectively. I can't think of any modern examples where a teams succeeded (SB or SB contender) with either a below average QB or below average head coach.

We are definitely not on the same page with this discussion so yes, let's agree to disagree.