BobbyLayne
Footballguy
BB: how many plays does Marcus know?
FATTY: one
BB: Run it again
FATTY: one
BB: Run it again
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Honestly Can't Wait For Thursday For Once ***Official TNF Buffalo vs. New England Thread (+4, 44)*** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rockaction
- Start date
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Very much so, yes.
But he’s been their best player. It’s preposterous to ignore him inside the 6 on 1st down.
The_Man
Footballguy
opensourcebeer
Footballguy
Shakir time
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Who’s your lone win?
Boston
Footballguy
Will be interesting to see what happens...the Patricia move is so indefensible and everyone but Bill knew it was stupid...it has destroyed Mac...I would be OK with BB staying as Coach but not GM but that aint happening...it's all or nothing...I think he stays but no way will Kraft allow Patricia to remain as OC...that's where it could get ugly...for whatever reason Patricia is his binky,.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
105 YFS & 6 catches for the James Cook
ho hum game for everybody else
ho hum game for everybody else
The_Man
Footballguy
They’ll split with Vegas and Arizona
Boston
Footballguy
The two winnable games are on the road so who knows what happens there...it could really get ugly...and IMO it needs to...this plan aint working.
Insein
Footballguy
Lurie let Andy go but of course Andy didn't have 6 rings. So Kraft might walk on eggshells a bit. If it happens again next year though, I can see Kraft telling him to retire.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Yeah, I was just thinking they could get skunked down the stretch. Raiders & Cards can score in bunches.
Yikes.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
17 years man
Judge Smails
Footballguy
Why quit with 3 timeouts? Get the punt, try to score, onside kick. Hail Mary. Granted it’s a prayer, but unless that’s professional courtesy since the Bills did kneel downs I don’t get it
ProstheticRGK
Footballguy
All the more reason.
I kid, kinda, didn’t even see the game. Heard some on the radio. Why did they seem better with Zappe?
Drake Hater
Footballguy
Rough FF game for Pats players. Hoping for some booms this weekend
elguapo07
Footballguy
I'm starting to get the feeling that Belichicks talent as an elite HC is better suited for a team with a top 10 QB and the best young defensive player in the league. AFC is top heavy with top young QBs while the NFC is clearly the path of least resistance. Do the Cowboys get BB for the 23 or the 24 seaeson?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
BB is best suited playing in a division that could not come up with a viable starting QB or head coach for 20 years. In NE's long run of success, there weren't that many good QB's in the conference either (Peyton, Big Ben, Rivers . . . and who else . . . I'm being serious, I can't think of another QB that was good for multiple years?). Bill's philosophy of being conservative on offense, limiting turnovers, playing good defense, and letting opponents make mistakes worked for a long time, but the way the game is played now, that no longer works consistently. They will beat inexperienced QBs and coaches, but they won't beat good QBs and talented teams. The other issue is BB wants to keep using the same schemes on offense and defense, and those may be outdated, not fit the talent level of the team, or doesn't align with the skill level of the coaches on staff.
elguapo07
Footballguy
All good points. Just don't think his style currently fits a team and QB in the developmental stage. Give BB a talented D with playmakers and an offense with a solid QB and a playmaker on the outside and he can win again at the elite level but it's not gonna happen with this me team.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I think that holds true for most NFL HCs. Top 10 QB usually means a playoff spot and possible playoff wins.
I remember when Jim Caldwell had Peyton in his prime and went 14-2 one season, the very next year Peyton got hurt and same team went 2-14. So was it the HC or the QB
Last edited:
Boston
Footballguy
Here is the dirty little secret of coaching and QBs...in the history of the NFL almost all the great Coaches had a big time QB and almost all the great QBs had a very good coach...there are some outliers like Joe Gibbs but overall, you usually can't have one without the other...off the top of my head, here is a list of H-o-F coaches and who their QB was:
Madden-Stabler
Landry-Staubach
Lombardi-Starr
Grant-Tarkenton
Noll-Bradshaw
Walsh-Montana
Brown-Graham
Stram-Dawson
Levy-Kelly
Shula-Griese/Marino
Ewbank-Namath/Unitas
Here are a few more that aren't currently in the Hall:
BB-Brady
Reid-Mahomes/McNabb
Payton-Brees
Johnson-Aikman
Reeves and Shanahan-Elway
Dungy-Manning
Holmgren-Favre
Looking at this list makes what Gibbs (and Parcells although LT had the impact of a QB in that era) did that much more impressive...same for Landry who did not have Staubach for a lot of his career...bottom-line is the long-term success of a Coach and a QB are almost always intertwined.
Last edited:
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Things went better with Zappe for a couple of reasons. When Mac played earlier in the year, NE had some OL injuries and guys in and out of the lineup. Jones didn't have a lot of time to get rid of the ball. When Zappe stepped in, those guys came back and played better. With Zappe, many plays he had all day to throw with a clean pocket. Against the Lions, I don't even think he was pressured a single time. Very similar in the game against CLE.
Since Jones came back, the OL issues returned as well. They have had to cycle through 9 or 10 offensive lineman this season. Jones has some plays where he had no chance and got swarmed for sacks. He averaged taking 5 sacks a game over a month's worth of games. Some of those are clearly on Jones, as he held the ball too long. But many times, there is a rusher on him as he gets to the back of his drop back.
Conor McDermott started for the first time in NE last night (and is not an NFL worthy lineman). OL is this team's biggest issue (and there are a long list of issues). Jones also had to endure the initial transfer of offense from McDaniels to Patricia (which didn't go well and still is a big drain on the offense overall.)
Zappe also looked great against the Lions and Browns, both Bottom 5 defenses. When he came out of the bullpen against the Bears, Zappe had 3 turnovers. In the equivalent of roughly 3 games of playing time, Zappe has 6 turnovers. Sure, the offense looked a little better for a while with Zappe, but he had just as much trouble turning the ball over as Mac has had.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
A couple of things . . .
If Brady still had Brady, they wouldn't be that much better. Tampa has a better team than NE does, and they are under .500. Brady would be under durress the entire game if he were still in town playing behind the same leaky OL. He certainly would voice his concern over the talent level of his receivers, and the defense would still look gassed in a game like last night when the Bills ran 75 plays to 54 for NE. It would be 2019 all over again. Tom would be miserable, and the team would look great against bottom tier teams and look lost against legit teams with established QBs.
And I disagree on what would happen if BB somehow ended up as a head coach on a team with a talented D with playmakers and an offense with a solid QB and a playmaker on the outside. If we've learned anything over the years, it's that BB is stubborn and will only do things his way. If he went to a new team, he would jettison the coaching staff and playbook, he'd bring in his own coaches and system, and make everyone start over. Bill would not leave anything the way it was before he got there. And he'd insist on being GM and making all the personnel and draft decisions.
The point being, if said team already had a top QB, a top defense, and a bunch of playmakers, they likely would not need someone like BB as they would already be a playoff team with all of those assets. That team would also likely have a much better than average coach and GM. On top of that, the teams that would be looking to bring in a new coach would likely have none of those assets and would likely be a Bottom 5-10 team. I don't see Bill rolling up his sleeves and wanting to do a full rebuild someplace else at 70 years old.
Which teams would even be a consideration that have any of those ingredients? CLE? DEN? JAC? CHI? ARI? I can't really see Bill moving on to any of those teams.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I don't think Jones is the main culprit. The OL is a mess, the play calling is subpar, and without experienced offensive coaches, there are no real adjustments being made. For example, NE stuck with a lot of underneath routes, but on third downs they kept throwing on the wrong side of the sticks and were always short of first downs. When they tried to run some deeper routes or use more receivers on plays, BUF got pressure and Jones stood no chance and had to throw the ball away. I saw some All 22 tape of several plays, and the receivers were either well covered or had not gotten to the point where they needed to cut before Jones had to get rid of the ball. In those examples, those really aren't Jones' fault. He also isn't Josh Allen, so when he manages to escape the rush, that's all he's really accomplishing. Allen can get outside the pocket and run with the ball or buy time and still make completions for big plays. Jones' best outcome is running around for 6 seconds and throwing the ball away. He's not usually going to take off and run for 20 yards, and he's not going to throw laser shots to receivers in the end zone or sideline. If we want to say Jones has limitations, I'm fine with that, but NE's loss to BUF last night was a systemic problem more than it was a Mac Jones problem.Thank you Mac Jones for making this another Thursday Night barnburner
Last edited:
Boston
Footballguy
The Pats O sucks...Patricia is an embarrassment and every sane human being knew he would be except for his best friend...Mac is not playing well and while I was a big supporter of him I am really beginning to believe they need a better athlete at that position in today's game...the O line is not good and is squarely on BB as a GM as he has wasted a #1 on Wynn, over drafted a Guard from Tennessee-Chattanooga and let Mason go for almost nothing...the Pats blew two third round picks on TEs than dumped a Brinks truck on an awful Jonnu and Henry who is underutilized...the WR situation is odd in that they have some pieces but they are like an old school pitching staff without an Ace or a legit #2 so it isn't overly effective...Stevenson is the one bright spot on this offense as he is a legit stud...by the way they used two other picks in this past draft on RBs and neither have yet to show they will be NFL caliber players...something's gotta give here because they are heading in a very bad direction on this side of the ball.
Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
It's a little disrespectful to say those coaches only succeeded because of their QB. Outside of cherry picking a bit and ignoring coaches like Ditka, Harbaugh, Carroll, etc I could go on but I won't, you don't believe these coaches helped with the success of these QBs? It's a symbiotic relationship in many cases. BB's problem now is as much to do with his terrible GM skills as it is to do with losing Brady IMHO. Look no further than his atrocious draft picks and free agent hires on the offensive side of the ball. The skill around Mac is next level bad and that's all on BB.
Boston
Footballguy
The issue isn’t they have fallen…it was a given that they were going to a big step backwards post-Brady…the issue is they are currently in no man’s land where they are still trying to build the team like they did with Brady…that was never going to be viable and unless BB totally changes their philosophy they will continue to be right where they are which is irrelevant.
Boston
Footballguy
Complete BS it is disrespectful and that list is far from cherry picking…very far…you also totally missed the point…the point is it usually takes two…a very good Coach and a very good QB…the list of talented QBs who played for subpar Coaches and floundered or did not reach the top is a long one (and vice versa..a good QB can only cover up bad coaching so much)…that is not a knock on either position but instead historical fact…when you look at the Hall-Fame it is not a fluke that many QBs and Coaches inducted often match up.
Last edited:
Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
They need a GM willing to stand up to BB. Likely will never happen, but that's the only solution to the problem IMHO. I know a lot of people root against the guy because of his previous success and unique methods, but dynasties and someone to hate are all good for the game.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Sticking with the OL (which I believe is their biggest issue), they clearly made some poor decisions on who to roster. You brought up Mason. He was due to be almost a $10M cap hit this year and then become a FA. He was an excellent guard in his time in NE, graded at 85 three times by PFF (and two other seasons in the 80s). His PFF score in Tampa so far this year is 72. That score is basically a decent (but not earth shattering) starter. Yes, that would be an upgrade to the OL play they are getting in NE these days, but that would have been a decent cap hit for a guy they probably weren't going to bring back.
Using PFF grades as a guide, the only really good OL piece in NE is Onwenu. He's been graded in the low to mid 80's each of his three seasons. Andrews has usually been in the 70's except for 2017 when he was rated at almost 85. He's at 70.7 this season (so a decent but not great starter). Wynn, believe it or not, actually earned some decent PFF grades when he played that past two seasons (82.6 and 74.9). This year he's been a disaster (54.6). Brown has never really been a fave of PFF, as he's usually been scored in the high 60s. Last year he did a lot better (79.3) but has fallen back to 68.1 (basically an average or slightly below average starter). Cannon in his prime scored in the 70s with one season in the 80s. But that was a number of years ago and he only rates a 61.4 this year. As you mentioned, Strange looks overmatched most of the time and only rates a 50 so far. The other fill-in guys never scored highly in limited use before, so not surprising they aren't scoring that great with more playing time (Cajuste 67.1, Ferentz 53.6, McDermott 57.8).
Bottom line, they have only gotten decent OL play from Onwenu and average production from Andrews (when he's been available). The other guys have all been liabilities. Based off of that, it's tough to evaluate the pieces further down the offensive workflow. Jones can't be expected to play well when the line is unreliable. I agree Jones has looked bad, but there are reasons Jones has looked bad that aren't his fault (OL, lack of coaching, poor play calling, no great offensive skill position pieces besides Stevenson). And it's hard to pin the lack of production on the WR and TE players for similar reasons. As an example, the NE offense looked good and had some explosive plays last week against MIN . . . when the line held up and Jones had time to process and get rid of the football. In those situations, having ok but not great skill position players isn't an issue. But when you combine bad OL play with all the other potential issues, then you have a game like last night vs. BUF.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Yeah, they're cooked. Would love to see Matt Patricia's BB photo collection. Must be some damning stuff there.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Bottom of the division is more due to the other teams in the AFCE being much better than they were for many years (and has nothing to do with NE). In the other 7 divisions, six wins would put NE in first place in one of them and second place in four others.
One thing I think is interesting is not many people picked or expected NE to beat BUF. Yet the takeaway from a lot of people is how bad they looked. Would folks have the same opinion if they looked better and lost 49-28? Sure, they didn't look great, but they looked better than the last two games against BUF (when the punter had 0 punts in 2 games).
Boston
Footballguy
I agree about the O line and as you know I have not bought into that unit for a few years…that being said even if they were solid this is a pedestrian offense…outside of Stevenson there is a lot of ok players but none that will cause any defense to change what they are doing…the O line and Patricia is the biggest issue but it does not end there…this is not an offense built for success in 2022.
Boston
Footballguy
They looked hopeless and completely overmatched last night…there was zero stress for Buffalo on either side of the ball…they were not competitive.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I get that . . . but they looked like a D-2 college team the last two games against BUF last year. Clearly, they are not in the same tier as BUF . . . not even in the next tier below (likely not in the tier after that either). This isn't really news. We already knew that. I don't think anyone expected them to win last night. It would have been nice if they played better or showed some signs of life, but nothing is different this morning vs. yesterday morning. They still can beat bad teams and struggle with good teams. That probably puts them in no man's land . . . they won't be a serious contender but they aren't bad enough to get a top draft pick.
Boston
Footballguy
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result..if the Pats don’t overhaul their offensive philosophy both on and off the field they are doomed.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Would the offense be better if . . .
- Bill O'Brien takes over as OC
- They bring in a legit OL coach
- Matt Patricia becomes a front office assistant (although a shake and fry guy seems more what he is qualified for)
- They move on from some of their poor roster decisions (Smith, Agholor, Bourne (who I like but they clearly don't), Wynn, Cannon, Brown)
- They bring in a real, legit WR1 (I don't know who) to use with Parker, Meyers, and Thornton
- They sign and / or draft 4 OL pieces
That sounds like it would be a huge improvement to what they are doing currently. How likely is any of that to happen? Who knows. But I think that would be a much better foundation than what they have in place now. The biggest issue NE fans should have is essentially NE punted on the 2022 season, and they really didn't get a clear picture as to who they should ride with moving forward. Because they missed on so many guys, that likely will leave them some money to bring in a couple other free agents. Their track record isn't great on free agent signings, but they might be able to get decent play (ok, let's be realistic, league average play) from a couple of new faces. The easy answer to all of this is no, they won't be able to do these things, as they haven't done them so far.
Boston
Footballguy
The answer is a new front office...they have had a few good recent drafts but right now they are paying dearly for the sins of that stretch of horrific drafting...in free agency they have wasted a ton of money recently and outside of Judon they have gotten little return on investment...enough of the he was a Captain in high school and is versatile player stuff...there will always be room for that type of player but you don't build your roster around that...you need studs...Brady is no longer here, and the game is changing...the Pats have a subpar roster and a coaching staff full of yes men...either BB adapts or it is time to go...and I despise saying that because he is the best ever but right now his ego is an impediment to the post-Brady era.
Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
Usually takes two? I'm not sure it takes BOTH. Sometimes it takes only one, sometimes neither to get it done any given Sunday, ANY championship Sunday.
Peyton Manning - John Fox (QB)
Nick Foles - Doug Pederson (Neither?)
Russel Wilson - Pete Carroll (Coach)
Jim McMahon - Mike Ditka (Coach)
Tom Coughlin - Eli Manning (Manning's a debatable HoF QB because of his SB wins, but two luck plays got it done. - Coach with an *)
John Harbaugh - Joe Flacco (Coach)
Brian Billick - Trent Dilfer (Neither?)
Tony Dungy - Brad Johnson (Coach)
Those are just some examples off the top of my head from recent memory, but to my eye it would seem coaches can do it without a star QB, but it's difficult next to impossible with a QB but no coach.
Jacob's Ladder
Footballguy
Now if you want to say you need both for a dynasty or to produce multiple wins in a short time frame, I probably agree with that.
Statorama
gangster
While an upgraded line would really help, is it just getting to the point where you have to have a QB that is a legitimate threat to run the ball to succeed? When teams no longer have to commit a "spy" to the QB, it opens up what you can do on defense.
Are the days of a team winning the Super Bowl with a Trent Dilfer type "Game Manager" at QB gone for good?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Recent SB winning QBs include Stafford, Brady, and Foles. Mahomes won, too, but he’s more of a mobile QB than a running QB. While the league is trending toward dual threat QBs, that hasn’t become a thing yet in terms of championship teams.
Similar threads
