Anarchy99
Footballguy
The individual player pages at Yahoo Sports list all sorts of splits.The indoor/outdoor stats are interesting. Where do you get those?
The individual player pages at Yahoo Sports list all sorts of splits.The indoor/outdoor stats are interesting. Where do you get those?
Brees isn't Flacco. Why trade up for a player that won't help you win now when you're in a win now mode? Davenport has the most upside for his position and is an absolute athletic freak. Why didn't NE draft Jackson?I would have loved to see what Lamar Jackson might have done in that system. Probably my single most disappointing moment in the draft when all that capital was used to trade up for..... Davenport!? I already can't wait for the 2019 draft. It's a sickness that gets worse every year.
cloppbeast said:He's a volume passer, compared to Brady. Wonder what kind of stats Brady would have if he passed 600+ times 7 years in a row. Brady has better career numbers in TD percentage, int percentage, and yards per.
Brees is definitely an all time great, but not as good as Brady.
Coach clearly....but the most difficult factors to consider are quality of coaches and quality of surrounding talent. I don't think anyone would argue Brady hasn't had better coaches and surrounding talent than just about everyone else throughout his career. Stats will never do that advantage justice.
I think Brees is well appreciated by the fantasy community, the public and all NFL circles. But Brady is always going to be the polarizing figure. There are championships, controversies, heated rivalries, super models, villains and larger than life characters in the Patriot's story: Belichick; Gronk, Hernandez, etc. Regardless of how you feel about Brady, he has accomplished more than any other QB in the most important metrics - wins and championships. What might have happened in parallel universes is simply speculation.Yogibear said:We all know that Drew Brees is going to pass Peyton Manning on the alltime career passing yardage list sometime this season, probably Week 5 against the Redskins. But, I just saw something on www.espn.com that said that he wants to play at a high level until he's 45. He's only 51 touchdown passes away from Peyton Manning's alltime record of 539. But, the fact that he only has one ring and Tom Brady has five is a clear sign that no one outside the city of New Orleans is paying attention. Drew Brees is probably going to be the first Saint to have his jersey retired. And, still, the only thing people want to talk about is Tom Brady playing until he's 45. That makes the fact that Drew Brees is chasing history less appreciative. And, that's sad. When it's all said and done, Tom Brady may end up with at least 5 rings, but Drew Brees is going to be the guy with all the records. Are we not appreciating that fact enough?
That is *the* question? Well, Brady had 32 and Brees had 23 in 2017. Seems likely Brady will have more.Going into this season, they both have thrown for 488 career TD passes apiece. So, the question is: who's going to have more at the end of this year?
The original point being that Brees is underappreciated? NopeHave we actually uncovered any evidence so far that supports the OP? I don't think so.
Two words: Bill PolianCoach clearly.
But not everyone is going to agree that Welker, Edelman, branch, Blount, Ridley, Troy Brown, and gronk are better surrounding talent than everyone else. Gronk is probably the ? too, but the rest?
I honestly don't know who the everyone is here, but I think Peyton, Montana, and Steve Young had better surrounding talent out of the guys I'd put in or near the top 10 off hand.
Sure. Although Rivers did have one of the best receiving TEs ever. I'm taking Gates, Tomlinson, Jackson and Floyd over Brady's best 4..
I agree Brady hasn't always had the best WRs, but Moss, Welker, Edelman, and Branch are better than what Brees had to deal with most of his career. And Brees did more with a 35 y.o. Watson than Brady did with Watson in his prime. In his San Diego days (4 years starting), Brees did have Gates (equal to Gronk, IMO) for his first 3 years in the league (Gates' rookie year was not notable, tho), but his leading WR was Eric Parker. In NO, the best he ever had was Colston until late in his career when he got Cooks and MT (I'm very curious how MT will do without Brees - I'm betting not well). Neither one of those guys could hold a candle to Moss, though.
And I wasn't just talking about the big names you mentioned. I know it'll be unpopular, but I really think it would've been interesting to see how a guy like Rivers could've done with a competent coach and GM. I think he went 14-2 with his one season with Marty Schottenheimer, but after that it was Norv Turner :X . And I think we all remember what a total D-bag AJ Smith was as a GM. He's got a better ypa than Brady and a similar TDA ratio and his leading WR is Malcom Floyd. He and VJax did combine for three 1000 yard seasons, though.
Two words: Bill Polian
As soon as he was finally fired from the Colts he was exposed as a quack. Peyton was saddled with that clown from 1998-2011!! Also, by surrounding talent I'm including defense. Peyton never had a defense.
As I mentioned in my post, surrounding talent includes OL and defense and I maintain his OL was never actually that talented - he made them look good by calling audibles and getting rid of the ball quickly. Peyton got 5 good years out of Edge and how much of that was because Edge was playing with Peyton? Age 27 with Peyton, he's averaging 4.2 ypc. Age 28 without Peyton he's averaging 3.4 ypc. It's a minor quibble but I think we all agree Edge wasn't the same after tearing his ACL - it was a potentially career ending injury back then. And are we really going to act like Clark and Pollard were special players??Wait, what?
Manning had Edge, Harrison, Wayne, Clark, and Pollard surrounding him throughout his Colts career, plus all sorts of very solid role players as well as the most dominant pass blocking Oline in the league. And having a crappy D year after year is one of the best components for compiling huge passing numbers.
I’m not going to diminish Manning. I believe he is the GOAT at QB (I know, very arguable but don’t want to get into that in this thread). He was literally an OC on the field as well as distributing the ball as well as he did. He just butchered Ds. But my memory of what Manning had to assist his putting up the numbers he did is very different than yours..
I don't know if Dallas Clark was "special" but he was a very good player (one of the first "move" type TEs) and a first round NFL pick, as was Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Edgerrin James. Let's not pretend those players didn't help Peyton out at all. He was surely a great QB (top 5 all time?) but the Colts went out of their way to surround him with offensive talent.As I mentioned in my post, surrounding talent includes OL and defense and I maintain his OL was never actually that talented - he made them look good by calling audibles and getting rid of the ball quickly. Peyton got 5 good years out of Edge and how much of that was because Edge was playing with Peyton? Age 27 with Peyton, he's averaging 4.2 ypc. Age 28 without Peyton he's averaging 3.4 ypc. It's a minor quibble but I think we all agree Edge wasn't the same after tearing his ACL - it was a potentially career ending injury back then. And are we really going to act like Clark and Pollard were special players??
I also pointed out earlier (not the post you replied to) that having a crappy defense tends to increase passing volume, but it hurts your efficiency numbers. It's a lot harder to pass when everyone knows you're going to.
Rivers got two good years out of Tomlinson (after that his ypc fell off a cliff), so let's not overstate things here. Gates = Gronk. 3 years of Jackson << 3 years of Moss. And Malcom Floyd is not even worth mentioning. But the point was that Rivers has been saddled with a crappy coach and GM for most of his career. It would've been interesting to see how he'd have done in a better situation and how Brady would've fared behind a crap OL with Norv Turner calling the plays.Sure. Although Rivers did have one of the best receiving TEs ever. I'm taking Gates, Tomlinson, Jackson and Floyd over Brady's best 4.
We could debate the pats receivers vs the saints. Or just say they both were not stellar but their QB helped make them look good.
I’m not going to turn this into a Manning thread, but you and I are miles apart on this. I can’t help but think you are jaded for some reason, because some of these comments IMO are completely inexplicable. I’m going to refrain from continuing in this thread on this.As I mentioned in my post, surrounding talent includes OL and defense and I maintain his OL was never actually that talented - he made them look good by calling audibles and getting rid of the ball quickly. Peyton got 5 good years out of Edge and how much of that was because Edge was playing with Peyton? Age 27 with Peyton, he's averaging 4.2 ypc. Age 28 without Peyton he's averaging 3.4 ypc. It's a minor quibble but I think we all agree Edge wasn't the same after tearing his ACL - it was a potentially career ending injury back then. And are we really going to act like Clark and Pollard were special players??
I also pointed out earlier (not the post you replied to) that having a crappy defense tends to increase passing volume, but it hurts your efficiency numbers. It's a lot harder to pass when everyone knows you're going to.
Sure, these guys were all first round picks, but let's utilize hindsight and realize that Polian was a buffoon and it's quite possible Peyton made all those guys look better than they were. And saddling him with a hoard of undrafted offensive linemen and a wet paper towel defense didn't actually do him any favors.I don't know if Dallas Clark was "special" but he was a very good player (one of the first "move" type TEs) and a first round NFL pick, as was Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Edgerrin James. Let's not pretend those players didn't help Peyton out at all. He was surely a great QB (top 5 all time?) but the Colts went out of their way to surround him with offensive talent.
I’m not going to turn this into a Manning thread, but you and I are miles apart on this. I can’t help but think you are jaded for some reason, because some of these comments IMO are completely inexplicable. I’m going to refrain from continuing in this thread on this.
Not jaded about anything. I just acknowledge that Polian was a hack and there's more to a team than the fantasy football relevant players.
There was genuinely nothing malicious in my comment. Please don't make something out of nothing.Please don’t stray into jerk territory. Have a great day.
I suspect that among QBs that are at least borderline HOF worthy, Rivers has had the worst run of head coaches in history. He has been the primary starter for 12 seasons and had these head coaches:I know it'll be unpopular, but I really think it would've been interesting to see how a guy like Rivers could've done with a competent coach and GM. I think he went 14-2 with his one season with Marty Schottenheimer, but after that it was Norv Turner :X . And I think we all remember what a total D-bag AJ Smith was as a GM. He's got a better ypa than Brady and a similar TDA ratio and his leading WR is Malcom Floyd. He and VJax did combine for three 1000 yard seasons, though.
I would disagree with that bolded statement I guess - not saying he was infallible and while I acknowledge Manning covered up some warts, the Colts team that Polian built did win a Super Bowl (and their defense during that playoff run was pretty good). Their subsequent GMs were far worse than Polian.Sure, these guys were all first round picks, but let's utilize hindsight and realize that Polian was a buffoon and it's quite possible Peyton made all those guys look better than they were. And saddling him with a hoard of undrafted offensive linemen and a wet paper towel defense didn't actually do him any favors.
Didn't he just recently say Lamar Jackson was too short to play QB? He's up there with Casserly in my "why is anyone paying them to talk?" category.I would disagree with that bolded statement I guess - not saying he was infallible and while I acknowledge Manning covered up some warts, the Colts team that Polian built did win a Super Bowl (and their defense during that playoff run was pretty good). Their subsequent GMs were far worse than Polian.
It's also quite possible all those guys helped make Peyton look even better than he was. Let's not pretend Harrison, Wayne and James were not extremely talented (they were all consensus first round picks) - and Dallas Clark was far better than you want to acknowledge.
The irony here is the Colts SB year their defense was terrible in the regular season. They ranked 23rd in points allowed and 21st in yardage allowed. They performed better in the playoffs in three of their games (allowing 8, 6, and 17 points). The Colts very easily could have lost to NE in the AFCC that year (giving up 34 points and getting down 21-3). Of all the Peyton led teams, that one would not have been the one that stood out as a future SB winner. The offense wasn't as strong as other years and the defense wasn't as could as many other years.you're 100% correct - they did somehow put together a good defense that super bowl year.
Oh snap, I was looking at 2007 stats since they won the super bowl in 2007. Doh. Should've been looking at 2006.The irony here is the Colts SB year their defense was terrible in the regular season. They ranked 23rd in points allowed and 21st in yardage allowed. They performed better in the playoffs in three of their games (allowing 8, 6, and 17 points). The Colts very easily could have lost to NE in the AFCC that year (giving up 34 points and getting down 21-3). Of all the Peyton led teams, that one would not have been the one that stood out as a future SB winner. The offense wasn't as strong as other years and the defense wasn't as could as many other years.
The prevailing theory at the time was that Bob Sanders missed most of the regular season and returned for the playoffs - which turned them around. Their defense (especially against the run) was night and day with Sanders healthy versus him being hobbled or out.The irony here is the Colts SB year their defense was terrible in the regular season. They ranked 23rd in points allowed and 21st in yardage allowed. They performed better in the playoffs in three of their games (allowing 8, 6, and 17 points). The Colts very easily could have lost to NE in the AFCC that year (giving up 34 points and getting down 21-3). Of all the Peyton led teams, that one would not have been the one that stood out as a future SB winner. The offense wasn't as strong as other years and the defense wasn't as could as many other years.
One would think that based on last year, Brady will throw for more TDs. BUT, since 2006, there have been 7 seasons where Brees has thrown for more, and that doesn't even include the 2008 season where Brady didn't play because of his knee injury.Just Win Baby said:That is *the* question? Well, Brady had 32 and Brees had 23 in 2017. Seems likely Brady will have more.
Have we actually uncovered any evidence so far that supports the OP? I don't think so.
These rankings don't reflect the quality of the defense. The Colts faces fewer drives per game than most teams, since teams tried to grind out long drives against them. If you're only facing 15 games worth of drives in a 16 game season, then it's not impressive if you allow fewer total points than average. In Manning's 13 seasons, the Colts D had just 2 (2005 & 2007) where they were in the top 10 in fewest points allowed per drive, and 0 where they were in the top 10 in fewest yards allowed per drive.Anarchy99 said:The Colts defense in the Peyton era had 5 seasons in the Top 10 in points allowed including years ranked as #1 and #2. Two times they ranked in the Top 10 in yardage allowed.
This is about to happen.We all know that Drew Brees is going to pass Peyton Manning on the alltime career passing yardage list sometime this season, probably Week 5 against the Redskins.
Officially. Only one player has ever worn No. 8 for the New Orleans Saints - Archie Manning.Drew Brees is probably going to be the first Saint to have his jersey retired.
He also just broke Brett Favre's all time completion record.He's only 51 touchdown passes away from Peyton Manning's alltime record of 539.
To quote Vince Lombardi, "Passing yards isn't everything. It's the only thing."Here's the point that I was trying to make when I started this topic: Tom Brady may end up with more regular season wins than any QB in NFL history, but Drew Brees is going to hold all the regular season passing records when it's all said and done.
If that is the point you were trying to make, why did you title the thread "How Drew Brees is being underestimated" and state in your OP that "no one outside the city of New Orleans is paying attention" to Brees? Those statements seemed to be your focus, not what you claim here.Here's the point that I was trying to make when I started this topic: Tom Brady may end up with more regular season wins than any QB in NFL history, but Drew Brees is going to hold all the regular season passing records when it's all said and done.
Told me so about what? You were always wrong in your take in those Brees-Rivers debates, and you never got that, as evidenced by this post. You ignored the facts.@Just Win Baby I waited like 15 years to tell ya I told ya so (so pathetic that my life is so...that I remember Rivers and Brees debates. )
Vinatieri in the HOF next!
Have a good night man
Oh I love this, always fun to debate with JWBTold me so about what? You were always wrong in your take in those Brees-Rivers debates, and you never got that, as evidenced by this post. You ignored the facts.
For anyone thinking the Chargers blew it by letting Brees walk, let's review:
1. Brees was not healthy at that time.
2. Brees never played at a level close to his New Orleans level in San Diego. His 4th season was impressive but he followed that with a solid but unspectacular 5th season before getting hurt at the end of the season.
3. Rivers was under a large rookie contract with a significant penalty if they tried to trade or release him in order to re-sign Brees. Combining that with the contract re-signing Brees would have required made it a non-starter from a cap perspective.
4. Oh, by the way, Rivers has been a HOF caliber QB since Brees walked, and the Chargers organization knew how good he was. People tend to overlook the fact that Rivers has played the past 11 seasons under HCs Norv, McCoy, and Lynn and the cheapskate/incompetent Spanos organization, while Brees played for HC Payton and owner Tom Benson.
I'm glad it worked out for Brees. But it is revisionist history to suggest that the Chargers did the wrong thing with him. Lord knows, the Chargers have made as many or more bad decisions over the years as any team other than maybe the Browns, but this wasn't one of them.
In what world is Rivers HOF caliber?Told me so about what? You were always wrong in your take in those Brees-Rivers debates, and you never got that, as evidenced by this post. You ignored the facts.
For anyone thinking the Chargers blew it by letting Brees walk, let's review:
1. Brees was not healthy at that time.
2. Brees never played at a level close to his New Orleans level in San Diego. His 4th season was impressive but he followed that with a solid but unspectacular 5th season before getting hurt at the end of the season.
3. Rivers was under a large rookie contract with a significant penalty if they tried to trade or release him in order to re-sign Brees. Combining that with the contract re-signing Brees would have required made it a non-starter from a cap perspective.
4. Oh, by the way, Rivers has been a HOF caliber QB since Brees walked, and the Chargers organization knew how good he was. People tend to overlook the fact that Rivers has played the past 11 seasons under HCs Norv, McCoy, and Lynn and the cheapskate/incompetent Spanos organization, while Brees played for HC Payton and owner Tom Benson.
I'm glad it worked out for Brees. But it is revisionist history to suggest that the Chargers did the wrong thing with him. Lord knows, the Chargers have made as many or more bad decisions over the years as any team other than maybe the Browns, but this wasn't one of them.
If you put Rivers in that offense with that many pass attempts..... I wonder what the pinball machine would read at the end of a decade or two?@Just Win Baby I waited like 15 years to tell ya I told ya so (so pathetic that my life is so...that I remember Rivers and Brees debates. )
Vinatieri in the HOF next!
Have a good night man
Correct. I know you disagree, since we have discussed this in this thread. I think you will ultimately be proven wrong, but we probably won't know for another decade or so.Just to clarify, Earth in the year 2018?
Huh. I actually forgot we discussed it. That's cool. I like Rivers.Correct. I know you disagree, since we have discussed this in this thread. I think you will ultimately be proven wrong, but we probably won't know for another decade or so.