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That must have been extremely scary. Praying for you and your congregation.Church attacked over the weekend. Did anyone hear about this? The short guy in the picture was me. I was in Church Sunday and a man with an automatic weapon tried to kill everyone in the Church.
'Sitting ducks': Gunman shoots up Sunday church service, gets run over, shot and killed * WorldNetDaily * by Joe Kovacs
'Christianity is UNDER ATTACK. Anyone saying otherwise is lying'www.wnd.com
Church attacked over the weekend. Did anyone hear about this? The short guy in the picture was me. I was in Church Sunday and a man with an automatic weapon tried to kill everyone in the Church.
'Sitting ducks': Gunman shoots up Sunday church service, gets run over, shot and killed * WorldNetDaily * by Joe Kovacs
'Christianity is UNDER ATTACK. Anyone saying otherwise is lying'
Church attacked over the weekend. Did anyone hear about this? The short guy in the picture was me. I was in Church Sunday and a man with an automatic weapon tried to kill everyone in the Church.
'Sitting ducks': Gunman shoots up Sunday church service, gets run over, shot and killed * WorldNetDaily * by Joe Kovacs
'Christianity is UNDER ATTACK. Anyone saying otherwise is lying'
Church attacked over the weekend. Did anyone hear about this? The short guy in the picture was me. I was in Church Sunday and a man with an automatic weapon tried to kill everyone in the Church.
'Sitting ducks': Gunman shoots up Sunday church service, gets run over, shot and killed * WorldNetDaily * by Joe Kovacs
'Christianity is UNDER ATTACK. Anyone saying otherwise is lying'
Wow - praise God no one from the congregation was seriously hurt. Much respect for the church folks who realized what was going down and ended it well before he got anywhere near the entrance.
(Michiganders do not play)
During VBS (vacation bible school) - I cannot imagine living through this. I say that as a combat veteran with PTSD. Church is one place where we should feel completely safe, surrounded by genuine love.
I grew up in Michigan, all my people are along the lakeshore in various beach towns. Reading about this hit a little too close to home, knowing someone tangentially even more so.
Hoping for the best going forward. Your pastoral staff would be wise to reach out to trauma counselors. It is super important to give folks the resources they need to process what they just went through.
Including you, @Paddington - don't neglect that or think it's NBD, I'll get over it.
Wiil keep y'all in prayer.
The man who was shot is a customer of mine. Yes, it is being accurately reported.Yes.Church attacked over the weekend. Did anyone hear about this? The short guy in the picture was me. I was in Church Sunday and a man with an automatic weapon tried to kill everyone in the Church.
'Sitting ducks': Gunman shoots up Sunday church service, gets run over, shot and killed * WorldNetDaily * by Joe Kovacs
'Christianity is UNDER ATTACK. Anyone saying otherwise is lying'
Police identify Michigan church shooting suspect as man who attended with his mother
Wayne police identified the heavily-armed church shooter as Brian Browning, 31.www.usatoday.com
Sorry that this happened to you. Sympathies for the mother of the shooter. Hope the condition of the security guard is being accurately reported. Hope the children (and adults) are getting the support they need. Hope your choice of links doesn't get this thread shut down.
Not that it is good that he was shot (or that I was doubting this), but thankfully the surgery was successful and, I believe in one article or another it said this was not life threatening. Praying that all of that is and remains true.The man who was shot is a customer of mine. Yes, it is being accurately reported.Yes.Church attacked over the weekend. Did anyone hear about this? The short guy in the picture was me. I was in Church Sunday and a man with an automatic weapon tried to kill everyone in the Church.
'Sitting ducks': Gunman shoots up Sunday church service, gets run over, shot and killed * WorldNetDaily * by Joe Kovacs
'Christianity is UNDER ATTACK. Anyone saying otherwise is lying'
Police identify Michigan church shooting suspect as man who attended with his mother
Wayne police identified the heavily-armed church shooter as Brian Browning, 31.www.usatoday.com
Sorry that this happened to you. Sympathies for the mother of the shooter. Hope the condition of the security guard is being accurately reported. Hope the children (and adults) are getting the support they need. Hope your choice of links doesn't get this thread shut down.
Wow so sorry to hear about this @Paddington. Thoughts and prayers to you, the injured, and your whole congregation. Pax Christi.Church attacked over the weekend. Did anyone hear about this? The short guy in the picture was me. I was in Church Sunday and a man with an automatic weapon tried to kill everyone in the Church.
'Sitting ducks': Gunman shoots up Sunday church service, gets run over, shot and killed * WorldNetDaily * by Joe Kovacs
'Christianity is UNDER ATTACK. Anyone saying otherwise is lying'
Yes, if it hadn't been for the Deacon who ran him over, we would likely been killed. He had an automatic weapon. I was in the service and heard the shots. Then we tried to get out the door and my wife saw the shooter sitting on the ground after he was ran over. He was stunned, but still exchanged gun fire and was shooting into the church. Then they shot him.
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That had to be incredibly frightening. I'm glad the shooter was taken out and I hope you, the congregation, the pastor, and everyone else affected are able to deal with this and remain a solid congregation.Church attacked over the weekend. Did anyone hear about this? The short guy in the picture was me. I was in Church Sunday and a man with an automatic weapon tried to kill everyone in the Church.
'Sitting ducks': Gunman shoots up Sunday church service, gets run over, shot and killed * WorldNetDaily * by Joe Kovacs
'Christianity is UNDER ATTACK. Anyone saying otherwise is lying'
This was in no way related to the tragedy. Apologies to those who thought it was.
Thank you.
That had to be incredibly frightening. I'm glad the shooter was taken out and I hope you, the congregation, the pastor, and everyone else affected are able to deal with this and remain a solid congregation.Church attacked over the weekend. Did anyone hear about this? The short guy in the picture was me. I was in Church Sunday and a man with an automatic weapon tried to kill everyone in the Church.
'Sitting ducks': Gunman shoots up Sunday church service, gets run over, shot and killed * WorldNetDaily * by Joe Kovacs
'Christianity is UNDER ATTACK. Anyone saying otherwise is lying'
That link you posted is pretty disrespectful to the people involved, using them to push its "war on Christianity" campaign. I found this article which is more local and seems more respectful to everyone involved (except the shooter).
Pastor, security team member, and parishioner reflect on attack at church
Members of CrossPointe Community Church are still processing the attempted mass shooting that occurred during their worship service.www.wxyz.com
Thanks for that video. He's going to have a lot of stuff to work through.Yes, if it hadn't been for the Deacon who ran him over, we would likely been killed. He had an automatic weapon. I was in the service and heard the shots. Then we tried to get out the door and my wife saw the shooter sitting on the ground after he was ran over. He was stunned, but still exchanged gun fire and was shooting into the church. Then they shot him.
This is the guy who shot the killer
2.6K reactions · 42 shares | A security guard who helped prevent a mass shooting at a church in Wayne over the weekend spoke exclusively to WXYZ. The suspect was armed with a long gun and handgun and wearing a tactical vest when a parishioner struck
A security guard who helped prevent a mass shooting at a church in Wayne over the weekend spoke exclusively to WXYZ. The suspect was armed with a long gun and handgun and wearing a tactical vest when...
Thank you. I appreciate your kind words. Church seems such a safe place, we hear about others, but never think it could happen to us. Unfortunately, this isn't the first time my family has face a gunman. The first time was a mass murder that took place at party store. The first murderers mother went to my Chuch, lived 20 miles away and just happened to attack the party store I was about to visit along with my then 3 year old son. Many here do not like my message, but I can say that since my calling my God, I have faced death several times. There is a devil and the Gospel is true. I am doing ok, but my wife and my son's wife are traumatized by this. My calling draws controvery at times, but God has protected me as He did my Grandfather. I fully intend on continuing this discussion with sincere questions or discussions. God bless.That had to be incredibly frightening. I'm glad the shooter was taken out and I hope you, the congregation, the pastor, and everyone else affected are able to deal with this and remain a solid congregation.Church attacked over the weekend. Did anyone hear about this? The short guy in the picture was me. I was in Church Sunday and a man with an automatic weapon tried to kill everyone in the Church.
'Sitting ducks': Gunman shoots up Sunday church service, gets run over, shot and killed * WorldNetDaily * by Joe Kovacs
'Christianity is UNDER ATTACK. Anyone saying otherwise is lying'
That link you posted is pretty disrespectful to the people involved, using them to push its "war on Christianity" campaign. I found this article which is more local and seems more respectful to everyone involved (except the shooter).
Pastor, security team member, and parishioner reflect on attack at church
Members of CrossPointe Community Church are still processing the attempted mass shooting that occurred during their worship service.
Two thoughts.
First, I hope this wasn't intentional, but I'd hope that when one of our members suffers something terrible, we as a forum show just empathy. And hold off on the criticism.
The "hope you are able to deal with this... but" then go on to criticize his choice of links was discouraging.
It seems like expressing a sincere sorry that they almost were murdered and leaving it at that seems a lot more civil and cool. Condolences and expressions of sympathy seem to work best when they stay condolences and expressions of sympathy.
I'm sure he's still hearing the shots ringing in his ears, fearing he and his family and friends were about to be murdered, and then seeing the shooter killed in front of them. That sounds unimaginably horrific. Something I hope none of us ever have to endure. So maybe give the "but..." criticism tacked on a rest.
Second. I personally do not believe a lot of American Christians are persecuted. Clearly, this happens in other parts of the world though.
Although, that's easy for me to say. If I were a few days removed from an armed assailant intent on killing me and my family and friends and everyone in my church shooting it up before being killed in the parking lot, it's hardly a leap to think one's a target. They literally were targets for a guy with an automatic weapon a few days ago. My guess is this was more a case of mental illness but clearly, something had the shooter motivated to kill everyone at a Christian Church. Something was there.
Either way, let's not have the persecution discussion here. I don't see any upside and getting into it will likely result in (hopefully unintentional) minimizing of the trauma @Paddington and his friends and family have faced.
@Paddington , I'm glad you're ok and I'm sorry for the horrific experience you and your family and friends and church have endured. Praying for healing and recovery and forgiveness and wisdom as y'all navigate forward.
Believe it or not, I am not a member of that Church, but I lnow many of them. I was just visiting with my son and his family and just happened to be there. We intend to go back though and thank those who saved our lives.Thanks for that video. He's going to have a lot of stuff to work through.Yes, if it hadn't been for the Deacon who ran him over, we would likely been killed. He had an automatic weapon. I was in the service and heard the shots. Then we tried to get out the door and my wife saw the shooter sitting on the ground after he was ran over. He was stunned, but still exchanged gun fire and was shooting into the church. Then they shot him.
This is the guy who shot the killer
2.6K reactions · 42 shares | A security guard who helped prevent a mass shooting at a church in Wayne over the weekend spoke exclusively to WXYZ. The suspect was armed with a long gun and handgun and wearing a tactical vest when a parishioner struck
A security guard who helped prevent a mass shooting at a church in Wayne over the weekend spoke exclusively to WXYZ. The suspect was armed with a long gun and handgun and wearing a tactical vest when...
If you're willing to share from time to time, I'd be interested in hearing how your congregation is dealing with this.
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Let us know when you are ready as I have a few about the event and I do want to comment about something else.
Sure. What question do you have?
Some of these were formulated in my head before I knew you were visiting and not a member, so I'll still ask but "I don't know" is perfectly acceptable. I don't expect you chase down answers or anything like that. Most are just out of curiosity so not being worth your trouble, or you don't want to go there is also perfectly acceptable. Crickets are understandable. Also, one or two still, at least in my head seem argumentive or to be raising doubts, that is just a failure to articulate in words what I mean. Please believe me that these are just curiosity. I do have a point to make, but not with these questions.
Maybe I did a better job articulating than I thought. Some in my mind seemed to be challenging the narrative and/or questioning the "heat of the moment" actions. I didn't want it to feel that way if the questions came off that way.
Have to make? More like want to make. And wanted to wait a bit.
www.wxyz.com
www.facebook.com
www.wnd.com
"
I believe his point is that genre and authorial intent matter when reading a text. He’s using the links about the shooting (because the authors of the different links each chose a particular genre that best fit their communicative intentions) as a way to transition into a discussion of Biblical genres and what various Biblical authors intended to communicate.Have to make? More like want to make. And wanted to wait a bit.
The point has to do with the original link provided as opposed to the other links provided.
Specifically, these links are articles from the literary genre of "journalism"
Police identify Michigan church shooting suspect as man who attended with his mother
Wayne police identified the heavily-armed church shooter as Brian Browning, 31.www.usatoday.com
Pastor, security team member, and parishioner reflect on attack at church
Members of CrossPointe Community Church are still processing the attempted mass shooting that occurred during their worship service.
2.6K reactions · 42 shares | A security guard who helped prevent a mass shooting at a church in Wayne over the weekend spoke exclusively to WXYZ. The suspect was armed with a long gun and handgun and wearing a tactical vest when a parishioner struck
A security guard who helped prevent a mass shooting at a church in Wayne over the weekend spoke exclusively to WXYZ. The suspect was armed with a long gun and handgun and wearing a tactical vest when...
This link is not. It is political advocacy.
'Sitting ducks': Gunman shoots up Sunday church service, gets run over, shot and killed * WorldNetDaily * by Joe Kovacs
'Christianity is UNDER ATTACK. Anyone saying otherwise is lying'
Now the journalism may (and at least one does) contain political themes, especially in the form of quotes but its basic purpose is to tell the who, what, and where of the events. To record the events. The other article will certainly contain factual elements, but its purpose to advocate for a political point of view.
Now I don't want to drag politics into this thread, so I'm not commenting further in that context. This is a religious thread. One where we discuss from various points of views the books of the bible and especially the gospels and the New Testament in general. And literary genres are very relevant to that discussion because how you read something is contextual, it depends on the genre. The gospels are not "journalism" or "biographies" (in a modern sense) but "gospels". They are like the "Christians under attack" link in that the purpose is to advocate a point of view, this time a theological point of view. They contain factual elements, some biographical material, some historical material but they aren't biographies (in a modern sense), they aren't history, and they aren't journalism. They are gospels.
I keep saying in a modern sense because modern biographies generally tell the story of a person at least partially from the perspective of character development. The events that shaped a person into who that person becomes is usually part of the story. And they are focused on the life of the person, not the good news of what happens after their death. Jesus isn't shaped into who he becomes in the gospels, he starts out there for the most part. And while I prefer to focus on what Jesus said and did before the final week, that's me and not so much the new testament.
So, the point is that we should be reading the gospels for what they are, and not as journalism, not as biographies of Jesus, not as early first century history textbooks, etc. Doing so opens up the richer stories that are there. And frees one of trying to pretend that Matthew's and Luke's birth narratives can possibly reconcile. Or that the four gospels' passion stories don't contradict. Because these contradictions are key to reading the story that the writer is presenting. Matthew changed Mark for a reason. Same for Luke. And John isn't interested in the story of the synoptics at all. The gospel writers are each advocating for a particular perspective (Mark - nobody gets it, or is even supposed to get it, Matthew - Jesus is the new Moses, or "super" Moses, Luke - Jesus is a prophet, or the "ultimate" prophet, Acts - by following Jesus Paul's life more or less mirrors Jesus', John - Jesus is God (or on that level) and his here to show it, prove it) . And the literary license needed to tell these various perspectives is to be expected, just like with that political link.
The point is you didn't like the original link he included to give details on the story?
I believe his point is that genre and authorial intent matter when reading a text. He’s using the links about the shooting (because the authors of the different links each chose a particular genre that best fit their communicative intentions) as a way to transition into a discussion of Biblical genres and what various Biblical authors intended to communicate.Have to make? More like want to make. And wanted to wait a bit.
The point has to do with the original link provided as opposed to the other links provided.
Specifically, these links are articles from the literary genre of "journalism"
Police identify Michigan church shooting suspect as man who attended with his mother
Wayne police identified the heavily-armed church shooter as Brian Browning, 31.www.usatoday.com
Pastor, security team member, and parishioner reflect on attack at church
Members of CrossPointe Community Church are still processing the attempted mass shooting that occurred during their worship service.
2.6K reactions · 42 shares | A security guard who helped prevent a mass shooting at a church in Wayne over the weekend spoke exclusively to WXYZ. The suspect was armed with a long gun and handgun and wearing a tactical vest when a parishioner struck
A security guard who helped prevent a mass shooting at a church in Wayne over the weekend spoke exclusively to WXYZ. The suspect was armed with a long gun and handgun and wearing a tactical vest when...
This link is not. It is political advocacy.
'Sitting ducks': Gunman shoots up Sunday church service, gets run over, shot and killed * WorldNetDaily * by Joe Kovacs
'Christianity is UNDER ATTACK. Anyone saying otherwise is lying'
Now the journalism may (and at least one does) contain political themes, especially in the form of quotes but its basic purpose is to tell the who, what, and where of the events. To record the events. The other article will certainly contain factual elements, but its purpose to advocate for a political point of view.
Now I don't want to drag politics into this thread, so I'm not commenting further in that context. This is a religious thread. One where we discuss from various points of views the books of the bible and especially the gospels and the New Testament in general. And literary genres are very relevant to that discussion because how you read something is contextual, it depends on the genre. The gospels are not "journalism" or "biographies" (in a modern sense) but "gospels". They are like the "Christians under attack" link in that the purpose is to advocate a point of view, this time a theological point of view. They contain factual elements, some biographical material, some historical material but they aren't biographies (in a modern sense), they aren't history, and they aren't journalism. They are gospels.
I keep saying in a modern sense because modern biographies generally tell the story of a person at least partially from the perspective of character development. The events that shaped a person into who that person becomes is usually part of the story. And they are focused on the life of the person, not the good news of what happens after their death. Jesus isn't shaped into who he becomes in the gospels, he starts out there for the most part. And while I prefer to focus on what Jesus said and did before the final week, that's me and not so much the new testament.
So, the point is that we should be reading the gospels for what they are, and not as journalism, not as biographies of Jesus, not as early first century history textbooks, etc. Doing so opens up the richer stories that are there. And frees one of trying to pretend that Matthew's and Luke's birth narratives can possibly reconcile. Or that the four gospels' passion stories don't contradict. Because these contradictions are key to reading the story that the writer is presenting. Matthew changed Mark for a reason. Same for Luke. And John isn't interested in the story of the synoptics at all. The gospel writers are each advocating for a particular perspective (Mark - nobody gets it, or is even supposed to get it, Matthew - Jesus is the new Moses, or "super" Moses, Luke - Jesus is a prophet, or the "ultimate" prophet, Acts - by following Jesus Paul's life more or less mirrors Jesus', John - Jesus is God (or on that level) and his here to show it, prove it) . And the literary license needed to tell these various perspectives is to be expected, just like with that political link.
The point is you didn't like the original link he included to give details on the story?
1) An altar is a place where people sacrifice things to God. Under the Mosaic law, they were required to sacrifice animals to God has payment for their sins. They had to shut the blood of an innocent animal. This was a symbol of Christ's perfect sacrifice for our sins that would come when he would die on the cross and Rise Again from the dead. Yes for thousands of years before Christ God had this all planned out.
Just to be clear, no matter how badly I say something I am not second guessing your actions in the moment. You answered one perfectly in that I was confused by trying to get outside when the shooter was outside. I was wondering a bunch of possibilities including just that it appeared in the moment it was from inside. My church is a bit of a maze to the sanctuary so I don't think that would happen there, but I have been to churches where inside and outside noises would be tough to distinguish. Thanks for answering this as it answered a bunch of questions.
Well thank you very much for your kind words. We actually went back to that church today. We thanked The Men Who Saved Our Lives. It was a very emotional service. The man who ran over the shooter had lost his car. His brand new truck I mean. Everyone pitched in and he is going to be getting a new truck. I am not sure if insurance covers something like that or not. It doesn't matter. He saved our lives and we want to show our gratitude.
Thank you. I appreciate your kind words.
Thank you.
Interestingly, I went back to that church today and that's exactly what the pastor preached on. That we are not supposed to be the same, after something like this happens.
www.facebook.com
www.wxyz.com
www.facebook.com
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www.facebook.com
As I mentioned in another thread I have recently been addicted to Bart Ehrman's blog. It hasn't really changed my views about anything, but it has improved my vocabulary. I've been slowly working my way from the beginning of the blog and up to February 2015. One of the posts from that month is one where he kind of goes off when one of his debate partners posts abouts him. The result is as much of venom going the other way. I'd assume hostile towards you. (link)
That seems awfully generous. Not awful as in terrible, but as in awesome. Awesome that the congregation (and guests) had the means and desire to do such a thing.
In response to your comments about the reformers, yes, I agree the after opposing Catholic doctrines on certain issues they went ahead and went along with them later on. That makes no sense to me. I am not part of the Reformed Theology Movement. I am a Dispensationalist. We are at odds about many things. Specifically, I am a Mid Acts Dispensationalist. I believe that the Grace Age Church began with Paul and that Paul was the Apostle of the Gentiles. It’s his writings that are specifically instructions for the Church today. The other writings are still 100% the Word of God in my view, but they were specific instructions for Israel who was under the Law. Much of what Jesus Christ taught, was actually instructions for those in the Kingdom Age, which is yet future. It's deep Theology and takes a long time to fully understand because there is a lot to it. But the Scriptures prove themselves as God's Word of you study it properly. My opinion.
Full disclosure, just hopping in and commenting on a post. Haven't read all the other stuff in here the last week or two. My dad has always instilled in me that my best form of witness to others is my daily life and actions. "Does the world see Christ through your actions?" He has always encouraged theological discussions to start from the personal. "This is what I understand it to be as I learn about it". Humbleness and humility towards the subject matter and relationship with God is the way to go. If we can display what relationship with God looks like (warts and all) people are going to be far more likely to engage with that than with a person talking/preaching at them
I don't disagree with your father. (And I presume you.)
Interestingly enough, since Sunday I've kind of been tossing around how this week's gospel lesson and how I described it a week or so ago.
I've been meditating a lot recently on something I read. In Scripture as Communication, Jeannine Brown talks about "meaning" and "contextualization". She says:
I'm trying to stay out of the fray here, especially after the term "sola scriptura" got dropped pretty early on. I'm no apologist, although I truly appreciate apologetics and they have helped me tremendously in my own faith journey.
Misreading Revelation 22:18-19 (if I googled correctly) to mean a closed cannon is to blame here. I think whether or not there are new "truths" to be revealed is irrelevant as to whether or not there are new ways to express them. But maybe in two thousand years they'll be trying to piece together message board posts like they do Paul's letters to understand the teachings of the ancient electronic testament. (And I didn't say nor suggest that these were my posts.)
You know, I knew that this meant that "the [current] church" more or less begins when Paul starts his mission somewhere around Acts 9 or Acts 13 (though I also needed to google those exact chapters). But until just this second, the fact that this is just before the mid-point of the book of Acts was lost on me.
