I am an anti vaxxer (2 Viewers)

[ignatiusjreilly]

No.

Question for those who support mandates. Do you have ANY limits? Are you fine with ongoing boosters being mandated? Are you fine with future government decisions about what gets injected into your body?

If you had asked me 5-6 months ago, I wouldn't have been in favor of mandates. Well, maybe in certain areas, like hospitals and elderly care facilities (I'm still dumbfounded that people oppose them there). And certainly in favor of private businesses having the right to require vaccines for employees or customers. But in general, I would prefer not to have mandates, especially from the government.

There were two things that shifted my thinking:

a) The failure of incentives like vaccine lotteries and employee bonuses to move the needle (or maybe it was just that they were effective in pushing certain people to get vaxxed, but ultimately not enough of them). 

b) The Delta variant, which raised the costs of having a large segment of the population that was still unvaccinated

My support for mandates is not based on ideology or a desire to control people. It's a case of finding a balance between personal liberty and the need for collective action (which is pretty much the definition of what governments are supposed to do). I get that different people will find difference balance points, but for me, the compelling public need to get a virus that has killed nearly 1M Americans under control, the proven effectiveness and safety of the vaccine, and what I consider to be the relatively minimal inconvenience of getting a shot (which is something we require in lots of other contexts) tips the balance pretty far in favor of mandates.

So to answer your question, there are plenty of limits. If the public health crisis were less pressing, if we could get the same results through other means, if the vaccine were less effective or had a higher rate of side effects, then yes, I wouldn't want mandates. But that's not where we are right now.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

But that's a case for the vaccine, not the mandate.

I wasn't making a case for anything, just pointing out that his post contained a factual error.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

It's a case of finding a balance between personal liberty and the need for collective action

Disagree. It doesn't balance anything. It's the opposite of balance.

So to answer your question, there are plenty of limits. If the public health crisis were less pressing, if we could get the same results through other means, if the vaccine were less effective or had a higher rate of side effects, then yes, I wouldn't want mandates. But that's not where we are right now.

This is a case for the vaccine, not the mandate.

 

[Joe Bryant]

If someone is pro vaccine mandate but also Pro Choice, I don't want to hear anything they have to say.

I understand what you're saying. But that's going to weed out a lot of people, right?

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

This is a case for the vaccine, not the mandate.

I'm not sure where I lost you, but my point was that I think it's very important to get the overall vaccination rate up and save lives. If we could do it with other means, that would be preferable. But I no longer think that's possible, so we need mandates to get us there.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

I'm for choice if people make the right choice. Otherwise, no choice.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I'm for choice if people make the right choice. Otherwise, no choice.

Dude, don't turn my argument into a caricature! You're better than that.

You guys all seem to want to discuss this at some level of abstraction, but we're still losing over 1,000 people a day to this virus. This is not about anyone wanting to impose their "choice", like we're talking about brands of toothpaste. This is about the fact that we've experienced (and are still experiencing) a level of death that was previously unimaginable, and people want it to stop.

 

[AAABatteries]

I understand what you're saying. But that's going to weed out a lot of people, right?

If somebody having or not having an abortion could potentially impact the life/death of others beyond the mother and the child/fetus/whatever you want to call it then I’d be very pro-life.

I’ve tried to educate myself as best as possible on Covid-19 and I’m against a Covid-19 vaccine mandate by the government.  I’m hypothetically for a Covid-XX mandate if the calculus is such that I think it’s worthwhile.

I do not understand that all or nothing mindset.  I also don’t understand anyone that wants to make this political. 

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

This is not about anyone wanting to impose their "choice"

It absolutely is.

 

[Max Power]

I know 1,000 deaths a day sounds bad, but in context it isnt the game changer some people think. Its 0.00029% of the U.S. population. 

Offset by 10,000 births a day.

The average age of a covid death is 78 years old. The average life expectancy in the US is 78 years old.

The U.S. and global populations have gone up since the pandemic started. 

We net gain a new person in the US every 44 seconds. 

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

It absolutely is.

Counterpoint: It’s not.

 

[dawgtrails]

I know 1,000 deaths a day sounds bad, but in context it isnt the game changer some people think. Its 0.00029% of the U.S. population. 

Offset by 10,000 births a day.

The average age of a covid death is 78 years old. The average life expectancy in the US is 78 years old.

The U.S. and global populations have gone up since the pandemic started. 

We net gain a new person in the US every 44 seconds. 

I know you and others don't really mean this, but when you say things like this, it comes across as not caring about older people. The whole "well they are old anyway and it doesn't effect the imprtant young population" sounds so damn harsh

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I know 1,000 deaths a day sounds bad, but in context it isnt the game changer some people think. Its 0.00029% of the U.S. population. 

Offset by 10,000 births a day.

The average age of a covid death is 78 years old. The average life expectancy in the US is 78 years old.

The U.S. and global populations have gone up since the pandemic started. 

We net gain a new person in the US every 44 seconds. 

You must be a big hit at funerals. 

When I cite 1,000 deaths a day, it’s not because I worry that US population levels are falling. It’s because every one is those deaths represents a tragedy for a family and a community. And the notion that we shouldn’t do what we can to get that number down, especially with an obvious, effective tool staring us in the face, is unfathomable to me. 

 

[Max Power]

I know you and others don't really mean this, but when you say things like this, it comes across as not caring about older people. The whole "well they are old anyway and it doesn't effect the imprtant young population" sounds so damn harsh

I care about the elderly of course. I think we should strive to live in a society that values everyone.

What concerns me is the effort to protect the elderly and compromised communities has come at a cost to the younger generation.

Education took a big hit. Societal aspects are still recovering from the pandemic. Suicide rates are up for young adults, as is domestic violence and substance abuse.

We just dont know the true cost of our actions yet. These stats were just keep things in context.

 

[Max Power]

You must be a big hit at funerals. 

When I cite 1,000 deaths a day, it’s not because I worry that US population levels are falling. It’s because every one is those deaths represents a tragedy for a family and a community. And the notion that we shouldn’t do what we can to get that number down, especially with an obvious, effective tool staring us in the face, is unfathomable to me. 

We face our own tragedies. No one is immune to death and losing people. 

Mandates wont prevent deaths. Obesity, tobacco, alcohol and drugs are taking people away from familes at a much higher rate, but we're all just sitting on our hands watching ot happen. 

 

[dawgtrails]

I care about the elderly of course. I think we should strive to live in a society that values everyone.

What concerns me is the effort to protect the elderly and compromised communities has come at a cost to the younger generation.

Education took a big hit. Societal aspects are still recovering from the pandemic. Suicide rates are up for young adults, as is domestic violence and substance abuse.

We just dont know the true cost of our actions yet. These stats were just keep things in context.

I don't think this is true

Provisional data released by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggests that for the entire year of 2020 — when most lockdown procedures were put in place, many communities saw their highest rates of Covid-related deaths, and economic uncertainty was at its peak — suicide rates dropped by 3%.

 

[dawgtrails]

We face our own tragedies. No one is immune to death and losing people. 

Mandates wont prevent deaths. Obesity, tobacco, alcohol and drugs are taking people away from familes at a much higher rate, but we're all just sitting on our hands watching ot happen. 

Of course they would. There is most assuredly a subset of the population that would only get the vaccine if forced to and a subset of that population that would have contracted and died from covid otherwise.

We certainyl can argue to what extent that # is, but I don't think it is much a question that it would save lives

 

[Max Power]

I don't think this is true

Provisional data released by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggests that for the entire year of 2020 — when most lockdown procedures were put in place, many communities saw their highest rates of Covid-related deaths, and economic uncertainty was at its peak — suicide rates dropped by 3%.

NBC reporting said it up for young adults. 

Suicide rates declined again in 2020, but not for all groups, CDC report shows

Preliminary data reveals increases in the number of suicides among young adults, as well as some people of color.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/suicide-rates-declined-2020-not-groups-cdc-report-shows-rcna4363

 

[Max Power]

Of course they would. There is most assuredly a subset of the population that would only get the vaccine if forced to and a subset of that population that would have contracted and died from covid otherwise.

We certainyl can argue to what extent that # is, but I don't think it is much a question that it would save lives

You can still get covid and die of covid if vaccinated. If we're really concerned with excess deaths in America, the covid mandate isnt the place to start. 

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Mandates wont prevent deaths. Obesity, tobacco, alcohol and drugs are taking people away from familes at a much higher rate, but we're all just sitting on our hands watching ot happen. 

Your first sentence is self-evidently false, as @dawgtrailsdemonstrated. As for the second, we're not just "sitting on our hands". We regulate tobacco use in order to lower smoking rates. We criminalize DUI to prevent deaths from alcohol consumption. (You didn't mention deaths from car crashes, but in that case we regulate cars to make them safer and mandate seatbelts.)

All of these actions restrict your "freedom" in some way. All of them are about the majority of people (through their government) imposing their "choices" on everyone else. The seatbelt example is particularly noteworthy, because unlike with vaccines, or DUIs, or even tobacco, there is no plausible argument that your decision to wear a seatbelt affects anyone other than yourself. And yet we mandate it anyway, because, as with all of those other government actions I mentioned, such laws save lives.

 

[dawgtrails]

You can still get covid and die of covid if vaccinated. If we're really concerned with excess deaths in America, the covid mandate isnt the place to start. 

Of course you can. But you know the numbers and what they show of likelihood of dying being vaxed and unvaxed, right?

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I care about the elderly of course. I think we should strive to live in a society that values everyone.

What concerns me is the effort to protect the elderly and compromised communities has come at a cost to the younger generation.

Education took a big hit. Societal aspects are still recovering from the pandemic. Suicide rates are up for young adults, as is domestic violence and substance abuse.

We just dont know the true cost of our actions yet. These stats were just keep things in context.

Even if all those stats were accurate, that's an argument against shutdowns, which no one here is arguing for. And it's also an argument in favor of vaccine mandates, which will help us to get back to normal without the same level of death and disease that we've been seeing.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

You can still get covid and die of covid if vaccinated

Getting back to the start of this thread, you can certainly be opposed to vaccine mandates without being an anti-vaxxer. But if you don't believe that vaccines are effective against Covid, then you are, by definition, an anti-vaxxer.

 

[Max Power]

Of course you can. But you know the numbers and what they show of likelihood of dying being vaxed and unvaxed, right?

England's numbers are like 80% vax'd to 20% unvaccinated. But I assume America is on the other end of the spectrum. 

 

[Max Power]

Getting back to the start of this thread, you can certainly be opposed to vaccine mandates without being an anti-vaxxer. But if you don't believe that vaccines are effective against Covid, then you are, by definition, an anti-vaxxer.

Wait... saying you can still die of covid if vaccinated is an anti-vax statement?

Too much...

 

[jobarules]

SO serious question - the people currently against covid vaccine mandates....

Will you ever be for covid vaccine mandates?

Are you for other vaccine mandates we already have?

TIA

The vaccine does a good job keeping one out of the hospital. It does a poor job of limiting spread (just check the #s year over year right now). The vaccine mandate makes absolutely no sense for THIS vaccine.

 

[dawgtrails]

England's numbers are like 80% vax'd to 20% unvaccinated. But I assume America is on the other end of the spectrum. 

Context max. Context

When adjusted proportionally to display the rate per 100,000 people in all age groups, the number of COVID-19 deaths is higher in the unvaccinated population than in the vaccinated population, the data shows.

For the over-80s, the rate of death per 100,000 unvaccinated was 156. For those vaccinated, it was 49.5.

For those aged 70-79, the rate of death was more than five times higher in those who are unvaccinated.

Meanwhile, the rate of death for unvaccinated 60- to 69-year-olds was 66.4 out of 100,000 in comparison to 13.1 for those who are vaccinated.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

Getting back to the start of this thread, you can certainly be opposed to vaccine mandates without being an anti-vaxxer. But if you don't believe that vaccines are effective against Covid, then you are, by definition, an anti-vaxxer.

No. If you are pro vaccine, pro boosters, and personally fully vaccinated - but anti mandate, you are "by defnition" an anti vaxxer.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

From the link in the OP

anti-vaxxer noun

an·ti-vax·xer | \ ˌan-tē-ˈvak-sər  , ˌan-ˌtī- \
plural anti-vaxxers
Definition of anti-vaxxer
: a person who opposes the use of vaccines or regulations mandating vaccination

 

[jobarules]

This is the problem with mandates that people just dont seem to get and its specific the NYC...

In NYC, any child over age 4 must be vaccinated to play sports, goto the movies, play band, take dance, goto a restaurant. They have all these restrictions.

Meanwhile, in the SAME city...

1. Drug users can legally shoot up heroin in safe injection centers that the mayor just opened and they do not have to be vaccinated.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/30/nyregion/supervised-injection-sites-nyc.html

2. A career criminal who caused $500k in damage by lighting a Christmas tree on fire was let out due to bail reform.

https://nypost.com/2021/12/09/fox-christmas-tree-firebug-said-he-thought-about-arson-all-day-long/

3. Illegal immigrants are not required to be vaxxed.

I can keep going here but my point is...

When the upstanding citizens of this city are treated more poorly than illegals, drug addicts, and career criminals, even though the issues are unrelated, the general public definitely gets pissed off. Its the hypocrisy of the government that people, especially here, are against. If the government cares about public safety, they should be requiring vaccines for illegals, not opening public heroin centers, and not allowing career criminals back on the streets, instead of preventing little Johnny play little league baseball just because he doesnt have a shot.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

It’s not a picky point that the Covid vax is under EUA and doesn’t have the five year track record of other vaccines.​

 ​

5 year track record?  Is that some testing thing or are you just saying other vaccines have existed for at least 5 years?  

 

[Max Power]

Context max. Context

When adjusted proportionally to display the rate per 100,000 people in all age groups, the number of COVID-19 deaths is higher in the unvaccinated population than in the vaccinated population, the data shows.

For the over-80s, the rate of death per 100,000 unvaccinated was 156. For those vaccinated, it was 49.5.

For those aged 70-79, the rate of death was more than five times higher in those who are unvaccinated.

Meanwhile, the rate of death for unvaccinated 60- to 69-year-olds was 66.4 out of 100,000 in comparison to 13.1 for those who are vaccinated.

Yeah, I was going off the non adjusted numbers where the 70% of the fully vaccinated population are producing 80% of the current covid deaths. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

I don't think this is true

Provisional data released by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggests that for the entire year of 2020 — when most lockdown procedures were put in place, many communities saw their highest rates of Covid-related deaths, and economic uncertainty was at its peak — suicide rates dropped by 3%.

I the highest rate of suicide deaths are over 75 males. If many of those people died of covid instead, perhaps that would have a greater affect on overall numbers and there still could be an increase in youth suicide. 

 

[LawFitz]

Your first sentence is self-evidently false, as @dawgtrailsdemonstrated. As for the second, we're not just "sitting on our hands". We regulate tobacco use in order to lower smoking rates. We criminalize DUI to prevent deaths from alcohol consumption. (You didn't mention deaths from car crashes, but in that case we regulate cars to make them safer and mandate seatbelts.)

All of these actions restrict your "freedom" in some way. All of them are about the majority of people (through their government) imposing their "choices" on everyone else. The seatbelt example is particularly noteworthy, because unlike with vaccines, or DUIs, or even tobacco, there is no plausible argument that your decision to wear a seatbelt affects anyone other than yourself. And yet we mandate it anyway, because, as with all of those other government actions I mentioned, such laws save lives.

Last I checked the seatbelt isn't permanently attached.

 

[jobarules]

I don't think this is true

Provisional data released by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggests that for the entire year of 2020 — when most lockdown procedures were put in place, many communities saw their highest rates of Covid-related deaths, and economic uncertainty was at its peak — suicide rates dropped by 3%.

https://nypost.com/2021/12/08/kids-growing-up-in-the-covid-19-era-are-damaged/

 

[dawgtrails]

Last I checked the seatbelt isn't permanently attached.

Well with waning efficacy the vaccine isn't permanent either

 

[LawFitz]

Well with waning efficacy the vaccine isn't permanent either

I know you're joking, but for the tens of thousands of people who've reported death or permanent disability in the wake of getting a Covid vax it sure seems so.

 

[dawgtrails]

I know you're joking, but for the tens of thousands of people who've reported death or permanent disability in the wake of getting a Covid vax it sure seems so.

This is ludicrous. Stop posting terrible lies

 

[opensourcebeer]

I care about the elderly of course. I think we should strive to live in a society that values everyone.

What concerns me is the effort to protect the elderly and compromised communities has come at a cost to the younger generation.

Education took a big hit. Societal aspects are still recovering from the pandemic. Suicide rates are up for young adults, as is domestic violence and substance abuse.

We just dont know the true cost of our actions yet. These stats were just keep things in context.

I think you've partially touched on a mindset (perhaps criteria is a better word) that all of our politicians need to have when making policy.  This mindset shouldn't be limited to how to handle the pandemic.  

Unfortunately, our politicians only adopt this mindset/criteria when it supports their party's position.

 

[LawFitz]

This is ludicrous. Stop posting terrible lies

It is absolute FACT that tens of thousands of people have reported death or permanent disability from the Covid vaxxes. You need to slow WAY down with your accusations. In FACT, the exact figure is just over 51,000 reports of such to the VAERS database as of Nov 26, 2021. And that doesn't include reporting to similar databases in Europe and elsewhere in the world. That also doesn't include the multitudes of people who didn't report adverse reactions b/c they weren't aware of VAERS.

 

[opensourcebeer]

It is absolute FACT that tens of thousands of people have reported death or permanent disability from the Covid vaxxes. You need to slow WAY down with your accusations. In FACT, the exact figure is just over 51,000 reports of such to the VAERS database as of Nov 26, 2021. And that doesn't include reporting to similar databases in Europe and elsewhere in the world. That also doesn't include the multitudes of people who didn't report adverse reactions b/c they weren't aware of VAERS.

Reports are not proof of causality.

 

[LawFitz]

Reports are not proof of causality.

51,000 false reports. Sure, dude. Keep kidding yourself all you want. Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of adverse events aren't being reported. That 51k is a subset of the actual.

 

[opensourcebeer]

51,000 false reports. Sure, dude. Keep kidding yourself all you want. Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of adverse events aren't being reported. That 51k is a subset of the actual.

I didn't say that.  I'm simply relaying what the site you provided notes.

 

[Witz]

It is absolute FACT that tens of thousands of people have reported death or permanent disability from the Covid vaxxes. You need to slow WAY down with your accusations. In FACT, the exact figure is just over 51,000 reports of such to the VAERS database as of Nov 26, 2021. And that doesn't include reporting to similar databases in Europe and elsewhere in the world. That also doesn't include the multitudes of people who didn't report adverse reactions b/c they weren't aware of VAERS.

Honest question - have you looked at the actual VAERS site as opposed to the one you referring to (which we’ll get back to that)?

You can run a report on the all the symptoms people have reported due to the vaccine. If you did and looked at everything being reported you’d see why many folks are saying it’s just not valid and/or accurate. 

 

[LawFitz]

I didn't say that.  I'm simply relaying what the site you provided notes.

Oh c'mon. At least be honest and own your misleading implication. Correlation <> Causation has been the rallying cry of the vax mob to throw out the VAERS data entirely when discussing Covid vaxxes on these boards. Are some (many?) of the 51k reported deaths/permanently disabled unrelated to the vax? Undoubtedly. Are some (many?) of the 51k vax-induced? Undoubtedly. Maybe let's try to figure out just how many of them are actually related rather than being so dismissive of VAERS entirely.

 

[opensourcebeer]

Oh c'mon. At least be honest and own your misleading implication. Correlation <> Causation has been the rallying cry of the vax mob to throw out the VAERS data entirely when discussing Covid vaxxes on these boards. Are some (many?) of the 51k reported deaths/permanently disabled unrelated to the vax? Undoubtedly. Are some (many?) of the 51k vax-induced? Undoubtedly. Maybe let's try to figure out just how many of them are actually related rather than being so dismissive of VAERS entirely.

Dude.  It literally says "Reports are not proof of causality" on the website's main page.

 

[LawFitz]

Honest question - have you looked at the actual VAERS site as opposed to the one you referring to (which we’ll get back to that)?

You can run a report on the all the symptoms people have reported due to the vaccine. If you did and looked at everything being reported you’d see why many folks are saying it’s just not valid and/or accurate. 

Many times. And I've made this case repeatedly, but we somehow keep coming back to this same place in multiple threads...

A. VAERS is an open reporting system, so it is capturing both true Covid vax injuries and others that are coincidental; and

B. VAERS is also little known to the broader community, so it's only capturing a subset of the actual adverse reactions - prior to Covid, it was estimated that only 1-13% of actual vax injuries were being reported.

Go ahead and discount the reported figures by some large degree to account for A. Let's say 50%. Let's say 75% to satisfy your doubts in extremis!... That still leaves 13k vax-induced deaths/perm disabilities that were reported and valid. But that *reported* word goes both ways, which so many of you here conveniently dismiss each time I bring up point B...

Namely, that we then must extrapolate whatever the valid amount is by the underreporting of events to the system. How to do that requires a firm % of reported/actual. Again, prior to Covid the estimates were between 1-13% of actual events were being reported to VAERS. I'll take out the extreme of 1%, and provide three possible alternatives for you to digest for extrapolation... 5% reported, 10% reported and 25% reported...

- 5% reported = 20x multiplication factor ... 13k x 20 = 260k dead or permanently disabled

- 10% reported = 10x factor ... 13k x 10 = 130k dead or permanently disabled

- 25% reported (double the high-end estimate) = 4x factor ... 13k x 4 = 52k dead or permanently disabled

The math goes both ways. Deal with it.

 

[jhib]

Oh c'mon. At least be honest and own your misleading implication. 

Here we go again.  Claiming others are being misleading.

 

[LawFitz]

Here we go again.  Claiming others are being misleading.

Dismissing VAERS data on the overly-simplistic 'Correlation <> Causation' narrative is absolutely misleading.

As is your thinly-veiled passive-aggressive ad-hominem here. But go on with your bad self and follow the Vax-Mob MO when my observations and arguments bother you, but you don't have the ammo to refute the message and instead refocus your frustration on the messenger. Perhaps one day, those of you who continually employ these tactics will realize that concepts matter way more than names. Even (and especially) when those concepts challenge your dogma.

 

[jhib]

Dismissing VAERS data on the overly-simplistic 'Correlation <> Causation' narrative is absolutely misleading.

As is your thinly-veiled passive-aggressive ad-hominem here. But go on with your bad self and follow the Vax-Mob MO when my observations and arguments bother you, but you don't have the ammo to refute the message and instead refocus your frustration on the messenger. Perhaps one day, those of you who continually employ these tactics will realize that concepts matter way more than names. Even (and especially) when those concepts challenge your dogma.

You have continuously misused the VAERS data in the exact way that the organization providing the data warns against.   Every time someone points that out to you, you then mislead by claiming they are dismissing the VAERS data completely when they are in fact dismissing the way you are using the data. Then you fall back on some kind of 'compromise' numbers which is still a misuse of the data. 

You mislead by your post, then you mislead by misrepresenting the reaction to your post, then you mislead by using fabricated guesses about numbers that were never meant to be used that way.

Sorry if that comes off as an ad-hominem rather than a criticism of the way you have been arguing in these Covid threads.