spider321
Footballguy
You're batting .333, ben.Good job!
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I hate Ron Jaworski (1 Viewer)
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theglorydays
Footballguy
Pretty sure Walsh said this:"Joe Montana plays excellent in this system. But Dan Marino, that guy is a system."
Most feel that quote was taken out of context as Walsh was just trying to be polite.
Walsh also had these things to say about Montana:
"The minute I saw Joe move, there was no question in my mind that he was the best I'd seen,"
Walsh thought Elway was a better than Marino:
.Link
Marino was the best passer of all-time, no argument there. Also there are hundreds of threads on this so I will stop now since regardless of whatever we throw out there, it will eventually come down to personal preference and opinion. I am of the school that a QB has to win Super Bowls to be the greatest ever, it is probably the only position in sports where winning trumps everything else. I grew up watching Marino, I think he was one of the best I've ever seen and he's the best pure passer I've ever seen play. Manning is 2nd, Fouts 3rd.
ETA: I might move Warner ahead of Fouts on that list
Thanks for the info. Although if you put Marino on Elway's team he easily gets those 2 rings with that team as well. Football is 45 men on gameday, 11 on offense and 11 on defense. I mean Elway had 3 tds 8 picks and completed exactly 50% of his passes in the superbowl, nuff said.
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MCguidance
Footballguy
I like Jaws
ft_ball_fan
Footballguy
Me too... the only complaint I have is with him and Chucky in the booth the 'excitement' gets a little much as they both tend to talk too loud and get hyped up about what they're saying... but I like the insight they bring for the most part... Best Monday night team they've had in years IMO.I like Jaws
MCguidance
Footballguy
Agree 100%. They gush over certain things, but their analysis makes it worth it.Me too... the only complaint I have is with him and Chucky in the booth the 'excitement' gets a little much as they both tend to talk too loud and get hyped up about what they're saying... but I like the insight they bring for the most part... Best Monday night team they've had in years IMO.I like Jaws
Bankerguy
Footballguy
I don't mind him, but he did mess up on play for sure last night. He was gushing about Ronnie Brown vision/cutback slobber slobber etc. The play was a designed counter with the FB (Polite) who was also cutting across the LOS to lead block. Jaws totally missed this obvious tip, instead he was all about praising Brown for "bouncing the play outside away from his blockers". Watch the game boys.
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nxmehta
Footballguy
1. I cannot BELIEVE how many threads get starting on the premise of hating Jaws. What is wrong with you people?
2. Dan Marino is NOT a top 3 QB of all time. He might not even be top 5:
John Elway
Joe Montana
Otto Graham
Brett Farve
Johnny Unitas
Seriously, to believe that he beats out three people from this list (in no particular order) is :(
2. Dan Marino is NOT a top 3 QB of all time. He might not even be top 5:
John Elway
Joe Montana
Otto Graham
Brett Farve
Johnny Unitas
Seriously, to believe that he beats out three people from this list (in no particular order) is :(
sparkky
Footballguy
I'm with these guys.
massraider
Footballguy
Haven't seen as many Unitas and Graham games as I'd like.1. I cannot BELIEVE how many threads get starting on the premise of hating Jaws. What is wrong with you people?2. Dan Marino is NOT a top 3 QB of all time. He might not even be top 5:John ElwayJoe MontanaOtto GrahamBrett FarveJohnny UnitasSeriously, to believe that he beats out three people from this list (in no particular order) is
B-Deep
Footballguy
I hate jaws as well, though I may not be an unbiased opinoin
It seems eh overspeaks everything
there's no 15 yard passes there are Amazing 15 yard LAZERBEAMS to the WR, clearly demonstarting why this QB is among the NFL elite!
it's like Stan Lee commentating a game, which sounds cool, but isn't
It seems eh overspeaks everything
there's no 15 yard passes there are Amazing 15 yard LAZERBEAMS to the WR, clearly demonstarting why this QB is among the NFL elite!
it's like Stan Lee commentating a game, which sounds cool, but isn't
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
spider321, you are losing this thread, badly. Marino is an all-time great; probably top 10 all-time. But not top 5. Unitas, Elway, Montana and Favre are all better, and, yes, Manning and Brady are probably ahead of him, too.
The same Marino who failed to win a single Super Bowl despite having Don Shula (two Super Bowl titles and another NFL championship w/o Marino) and Jimmy Johnson (two Super Bowl titles 2/o Marino) as his two head coaches? Think about that. Dan Marino had coaches who won a combined five NFL titles without him, yet Marino couldn't win one with either of them. Meanwhile, John Elway won two Super Bowls with a head coach who never won a Super Bowl as a head coach without him. Also, I don't buy the "Marino could have won a title with Elway's teams" argument (not that scenarios that never happen matter anyway). Elway was a much better QB in his late 30s than Marino was in his late 30s, and Elway had no problem sacrificing passes for more runs if it meant the team would win more. Meanwhile, Marino constantly #####ed about Miami running the ball too much under Jimmy Johnson. Granted, Denver had Terrell Davis, and Miami has KAJ, but still, you don't have to have a stellar RB to win it all.
Marino had 1 TD and 2 INTs, while completing 58% of his passes, in the only Super Bowl he was able to get to. Not very impressive, is it? Neither is Marino's 8-10 career playoff record. Elway's playoff record of 14-8, meanwhile, looks very nice. And let's not forget Elway's 4 rushing TDs in all of those Super Bowls. And his playoff numbers in AFC playoff games are pretty sparkling.
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spider321
Footballguy
Actually, judging from the knowledge level of most posters on here, I'm feeling pretty good about it.
I didn't realize coaches made good teammates, Ghost Rider. Would you say Shula was better at blocking, tackling, or fighting for extra yards on the ground? PS - Please do not type that Favre and Brady are better than Marino. It makes you look bad.Elway should still be sending Terrell Davis Thank You cards for giving him 2 Super Bowls.Elway was great, but not as great as Marino.Lol at whoever said Otto Graham. Did Moses play football? Maybe we should consider him too.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
spider, what are your reasons for saying that Marino is better than Favre? Did you not see Brett Favre play from 1994-2004? He was not the turnover machine (except for '98 and '99 when he was recovering from a hurt throwing hand after it was hurt in a preseason game) then that he has become at times later in his career, so spare me the "Favre has too many INT's" argument.
Terrell Davis was absolutely integral in the Broncos winning those two Super Bowls, but having a great RB doesn't automatically get a QB a Super Bowl win. Or if it does, can you explain to me why QBs who have played with LaDainian Tomlinson, Priest Holmes, Shaun Alexander and Clinton Portis (four of the best RBs of the 00s) this decade are all titleless?
You laughing at Otto Graham shows you know nothing about the history of this game.
Coaching is important to winning titles. Do you not realize this? Marino had two coaches - one is generally considered one of the best of all-time, and the other was considered one of the best of the 90s. He was unable to win a title with either. In fact, he could only get to one Super Bowl his entire career. Meanwhile, Elway at least got to three Super Bowls in the 80s with Dan Reeves, whom no one would put on the same level as Johnson, and definitely not Shula, as his coach.
Terrell Davis was absolutely integral in the Broncos winning those two Super Bowls, but having a great RB doesn't automatically get a QB a Super Bowl win. Or if it does, can you explain to me why QBs who have played with LaDainian Tomlinson, Priest Holmes, Shaun Alexander and Clinton Portis (four of the best RBs of the 00s) this decade are all titleless?
You laughing at Otto Graham shows you know nothing about the history of this game.
Coaching is important to winning titles. Do you not realize this? Marino had two coaches - one is generally considered one of the best of all-time, and the other was considered one of the best of the 90s. He was unable to win a title with either. In fact, he could only get to one Super Bowl his entire career. Meanwhile, Elway at least got to three Super Bowls in the 80s with Dan Reeves, whom no one would put on the same level as Johnson, and definitely not Shula, as his coach.
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cstu
Footballguy
You should have quit while you were ahead...oh, wait...
Zoomanji
Footballguy
switz
Footballguy
switz
Footballguy
Marino - great physical talent... but I'd take Favre and Elway over him every day of the week. Easily.
switz
Footballguy
I honestly did not realize there were people outside of Boston who consider Brady to be one of the best QB's of all-time.Seriously.I had no idea.
Lots of MNF guys seem fresh and great right away, then one tires of them.
Madden was like that. Jaws too. Right now I am liking Gruden, but time will tell.
I do think Jaws knows a few things about QB mechanics, but love how Gruden calls it like he sees it regardless of whether the NFL will like it. Jaws is too agreeable.
BTW, Chase once posted the following, with Marino 3rd. I had had him 6th. (Ghost Rider came along #####ing about where I had Brady, something like 14th).
**********************************************
Here's a very lengthy statistical analysis of the greatest QBs in NFL history: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=550. It ranks the top 75 guys and there are links to previous discussions of the methodology used. This is just a statistical look, so it ignores things like team record, Super Bowl wins, grittiness, clutchness, and ability to win when it matters most. The asterisks are guys that are either active (this was written last summer) or guys for whom I did not at the time have complete post-season game log data. That will hurt some of the older QBs like Graham and Unitas, to the extent that they played well in the post-season. It also only looks at NFL or AFL stats, and not AAFC stats for players like Graham and Tittle.
CODE
Rk Rating
1 Joe Montana 9586
2 Steve Young 8775
3 Dan Marino 8737
4 Peyton Manning* 8100
5 Fran Tarkenton* 6735
6 Dan Fouts 6661
7 Roger Staubach 6483
8 Ken Anderson 6468
9 Johnny Unitas* 6269
10 Brett Favre* 5793
11 Len Dawson* 5683
12 John Elway 5040
13 Kurt Warner 4778
14 Norm Van Brocklin* 4688
15 Bart Starr* 4570
16 Sonny Jurgensen* 4448
17 Terry Bradshaw 4410
18 Tom Brady 4307
19 Troy Aikman 4304
20 Otto Graham* 4250
Madden was like that. Jaws too. Right now I am liking Gruden, but time will tell.
I do think Jaws knows a few things about QB mechanics, but love how Gruden calls it like he sees it regardless of whether the NFL will like it. Jaws is too agreeable.
BTW, Chase once posted the following, with Marino 3rd. I had had him 6th. (Ghost Rider came along #####ing about where I had Brady, something like 14th).
**********************************************
Here's a very lengthy statistical analysis of the greatest QBs in NFL history: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=550. It ranks the top 75 guys and there are links to previous discussions of the methodology used. This is just a statistical look, so it ignores things like team record, Super Bowl wins, grittiness, clutchness, and ability to win when it matters most. The asterisks are guys that are either active (this was written last summer) or guys for whom I did not at the time have complete post-season game log data. That will hurt some of the older QBs like Graham and Unitas, to the extent that they played well in the post-season. It also only looks at NFL or AFL stats, and not AAFC stats for players like Graham and Tittle.
CODE
Rk Rating
1 Joe Montana 9586
2 Steve Young 8775
3 Dan Marino 8737
4 Peyton Manning* 8100
5 Fran Tarkenton* 6735
6 Dan Fouts 6661
7 Roger Staubach 6483
8 Ken Anderson 6468
9 Johnny Unitas* 6269
10 Brett Favre* 5793
11 Len Dawson* 5683
12 John Elway 5040
13 Kurt Warner 4778
14 Norm Van Brocklin* 4688
15 Bart Starr* 4570
16 Sonny Jurgensen* 4448
17 Terry Bradshaw 4410
18 Tom Brady 4307
19 Troy Aikman 4304
20 Otto Graham* 4250
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
I couldn't disagree more. His insights into the game are almost unparalleled. Everyone else just rehashes cliches and shows highlights. he breaks down the OL/DL, and "schemes/matchups" better than anyone.
BoulderBob
Footballguy
His voice/the way he finishes sentences like an actor...this is very hard to explain, but I think most understand what I'm trying to say...is quite irritating. The big fat smile he always has on his face, regardless of what he says, again a little irritating. But then again, I've basically grown up listening to him ramble on and on, so I don't mind him at all.
B-Deep
Footballguy
this!he over emphasizes words, he's like one of those people that use bold an italics and font crap too much, but he does it when talking
Chunky Soup
Footballguy
sparkky said:I'm with these guys.MCguidance said:Agree 100%. They gush over certain things, but their analysis makes it worth it.ft_ball_fan said:Me too... the only complaint I have is with him and Chucky in the booth the 'excitement' gets a little much as they both tend to talk too loud and get hyped up about what they're saying... but I like the insight they bring for the most part... Best Monday night team they've had in years IMO.MCguidance said:I like Jaws
BoulderBob
Footballguy
Perfect, you'd think ESPN would have told him to work on this, but apparently they think it's cute!
H.K.
Footballguy
Ghost Rider said:spider321, you are losing this thread, badly. Marino is an all-time great; probably top 10 all-time. But not top 5. Unitas, Elway, Montana and Favre are all better, and, yes, Manning and Brady are probably ahead of him, too.
The same Marino who failed to win a single Super Bowl despite having Don Shula (two Super Bowl titles and another NFL championship w/o Marino) and Jimmy Johnson (two Super Bowl titles 2/o Marino) as his two head coaches? Think about that. Dan Marino had coaches who won a combined five NFL titles without him, yet Marino couldn't win one with either of them. Meanwhile, John Elway won two Super Bowls with a head coach who never won a Super Bowl as a head coach without him. Also, I don't buy the "Marino could have won a title with Elway's teams" argument (not that scenarios that never happen matter anyway). Elway was a much better QB in his late 30s than Marino was in his late 30s, and Elway had no problem sacrificing passes for more runs if it meant the team would win more. Meanwhile, Marino constantly #####ed about Miami running the ball too much under Jimmy Johnson. Granted, Denver had Terrell Davis, and Miami has KAJ, but still, you don't have to have a stellar RB to win it all.theglorydays said:Marino had 1 TD and 2 INTs, while completing 58% of his passes, in the only Super Bowl he was able to get to. Not very impressive, is it? Neither is Marino's 8-10 career playoff record. Elway's playoff record of 14-8, meanwhile, looks very nice. And let's not forget Elway's 4 rushing TDs in all of those Super Bowls. And his playoff numbers in AFC playoff games are pretty sparkling.theglorydays said:
Great post.Just wanted to add that Elway ran for more yards in his worst season (94 in 12 games) than Marino ran for in his entire career (87 yards in 242 games...yes, those numbers are correct).
exactly. perfect description
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Right, that's not necessarily conducive to color commentary though it is great for midweek 1/2 hour shows. And Gruden has taken him to school analytically several times on MNF. I would enjoy those exchanges more if Jaws responded, but he goes into a sort of dumb silence. Gruden is great, but he has some tendencies that will become stale too. Before we complain much more, I hope we can agree this is one of the better crews we've had in recent memory.
PatsFanCT
Footballguy
I loved Marino as a player. He had a great arm, accurate with a quick release. He also never had a thousand yard rusher, as his team was built for the pass with great receivers and offensive line. That doesn't make him top three. In fact, I don't know if he's top ten, but he was fantastic and fun to watch.
Now that Mike Patrick is gone I never know to look at player's feet.
That makes me a sad bagger
.
That makes me a sad bagger
.
falcoatl
Footballguy
Are you talking about Dan Patrick?Personally I would MUCH rather have Jaws than Kornheiser or Theisman. They were both terrible.Now that Mike Patrick is gone I never know to look at player's feet.That makes me a sad bagger
spider, do you have anything to support your statement of Marino being top 3? You laugh at the stats (which is what Marino had so not sure why you would do that...) so how do you suggest they be compared? If you want to put him in your top 3 that's fine (and it could be argued) but to simply say that's that, deal with it, case closed, is absurd. A case can EASILY be made to not put him in the top 5, let alone the top 3.
Zoomanji
Footballguy
Neither, he means Paul Macguire from the old ESPN Sunday night crewAre you talking about Dan Patrick?Now that Mike Patrick is gone I never know to look at player's feet.That makes me a sad bagger.
Steady Mooobin
Footballguy
Neither, he means Paul Macguire from the old ESPN Sunday night crewAre you talking about Dan Patrick?Now that Mike Patrick is gone I never know to look at player's feet.That makes me a sad bagger.
"Look at his feet!"I made the mistake of watching some UFL and Macguire was on. Has there ever been a guy who sees something completely different then what actually happened more then him? I bet he does this ten times a game. "Watch player X here. He just destroyed player Y" When they go to the replay, 9/10 times the complete opposite happend.
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Steady Mooobin
Footballguy
Not a big Jaws fan. Love Gruden, even if he loves every player. He's fun, funny, and says stuff that a regular guy says, rather then the monontinous crap the others say.
He won't be out of coaching long, so I don't think you have to worry about getting sick of him.
I was never a fan of Marino, but I would put him in the top 10.
Montana is clearly 1 in my book.
After him it's a crap shoot between...
Elway, Unitus, Manning, Favre, Roger the Dodger, and as much as I hate to admit it, Steve Young. Always been partial to Fouts too.
What I never liked about Marino was his laser beam touchless short passes. You know the RB's you keep complaining about Dan? Yes, they suck, stop throwing the ball 424 MPH to them.
He won't be out of coaching long, so I don't think you have to worry about getting sick of him.
I was never a fan of Marino, but I would put him in the top 10.
Montana is clearly 1 in my book.
After him it's a crap shoot between...
Elway, Unitus, Manning, Favre, Roger the Dodger, and as much as I hate to admit it, Steve Young. Always been partial to Fouts too.
What I never liked about Marino was his laser beam touchless short passes. You know the RB's you keep complaining about Dan? Yes, they suck, stop throwing the ball 424 MPH to them.
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theglorydays
Footballguy
What did Steve Young do in Tampa again?
Steady Mooobin
Footballguy
I think the question is, What did Steve Young do in Miami?(Hint, something Jim Kelly never did)
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I also think Brady is better than Marino and I'm also over 30.ETA: and as a Jets fan since 1979 I've seen both beat the heall out of my team many times.There's more to playing QB than throwing the ball deep. Marino was great and I loved watching him play, but his ridicullous numbers over-rate him a little (still Top 10 QB for sure).
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A whole lot of nothing. What did he do in San Francisco again?
theglorydays
Footballguy
I remember Kelly driving the bills down the field in the Giants V Bills superbowl to set them up with a game winning field goal. He had, what, 1:38 seconds to go in the game starting from his 10 and got them to the 30. Can't really ask for more then that, can you?Brady's kicker makes game winning field goals and Brady is a hero, LOL.Oh and as to your Marino v Young argument, it sounds good in theory but Young seems to be a huge beneficiary of the Bill Walsh system.If Young was so great, what happened in Tampa????
You think Marino didn't benefit from having lesser rb's? Let's face it - had they been blessed with a great rb they wouldn't have passed it quite as much and his stats would have been less impressive. You think Marino didn't benefit from the weather? Let's see how he would have fared had he been stuck in Buffalo for his career.
Any qb that ranks amongst the all time greats is always going to have something that suited them. Talent alone doesn't get you that high - you also need the ideal situation. Be that weather, wr's, lack of ground game, great/poor defense, coach, etc.
Any qb that ranks amongst the all time greats is always going to have something that suited them. Talent alone doesn't get you that high - you also need the ideal situation. Be that weather, wr's, lack of ground game, great/poor defense, coach, etc.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
So, I guess any QB who has played in the WCO since the 80s should be knocked down a peg or two because "they were a beneficiary of Bill Walsh's system," right?
theglorydays
Footballguy
Yea if Marino had Terrell Davis he would have won a few superbowls, don't you think? LOL, that is my argument, this is a team game.One of the things i think about when ranking quarterbacks is how would they fair in a different situation. I know it is purely hypothetical but i think it is fair to say Marino could have been great anywhere. Same with Manning and Farve.Steve Young? I'm not so sure. After all, he failed in Tampa didnt' he?
Steady Mooobin
Footballguy
I was just busting your chops. I hated Steve Young and love Jim Kelly, so I'm more on your side then you think. If I bought into Young benefiting from Walsh, I would be also diminishing Montana's legacy, and I just can't fathom that.Different players, different systems. If I had a great line I'd choose Marino. If the line was suspect, I'd rather have Young. They are all great. I don't really like ranking guys in a particular order. I think there are separate tiers of QB's.
theglorydays
Footballguy
So, I guess any QB who has played in the WCO since the 80s should be knocked down a peg or two because "they were a beneficiary of Bill Walsh's system," right?
