If Cutler had a O-Line (1 Viewer)

[CaptainHook]

wait... "benson_will_lead_the_way" do you actually think highly of forte?

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

wait... "benson_will_lead_the_way" do you actually think highly of forte?

Higher than Switz

 

[switz]

He has a better WR core than a number of QBs outperforming him. His OL isn't great, but no OL is when you hold the ball for 5-6 seconds.

The guy is still #12 in my leagues behind Peyton, Rivers, Orton, Rodgers, Vick, Brees, Brady, Sanchez, Schaub, Ryan, McNabb. Which of those have worse receivers?

I would say McNabb has worse receivers. Orton and Rivers too. And before you knock Olsen, he's a very very good TE, if his QB would just use him. Peyton has Wayne, but Collie and Blair White are no better than Knox or Bennett or Aromashadu. Cutler's WRs really aren't that bad. Tired of hearing excuses for Cutler.

I'm tired of you ragging on Cutler and Forte. Still salty over the game at Dallas?

I'm tired of hearing excuses for Cutler and Forte. I thought they were going to turn this franchise around, because of course Orton, and TJones, and Benson all sucked.... maybe it's just Chicago?? Just maybe?

 

[renesauz]

He has a better WR core than a number of QBs outperforming him.

His OL isn't great, but no OL is when you hold the ball for 5-6 seconds.

The guy is still #12 in my leagues behind Peyton, Rivers, Orton, Rodgers, Vick, Brees, Brady, Sanchez, Schaub, Ryan, McNabb. Which of those have worse receivers?

You could make an argument either way on a couple of these guys, but McNabb (nothing after Moss) and Ryan (nothing after White) are gimmes while Rivers and Orton similarly lack a true #1 (unless you count Gates). Cutler doesn't have a standout #1, but he has decent receivers.

 

[Bri]

no one bit on Jeff George post, really think that's a decent comparison

 

[gandalas]

4500 yards and 25 tds dont mean too much if you throw 18 picks and are constantly picked off in the redzone. we are talking about real life qbing here, right ?

Last time I checked, this is a FANTASY football forum. Also, last time I checked, Cutler was the #2 OVERALL scorer in 2008 in my main dynasty league, which is not exactly QB-friendly.Yeah...stud numbers indeed.

 

[wdubb]

4500 yards and 25 tds dont mean too much if you throw 18 picks and are constantly picked off in the redzone. we are talking about real life qbing here, right ?

Last time I checked, this is a FANTASY football forum. Also, last time I checked, Cutler was the #2 OVERALL scorer in 2008 in my main dynasty league, which is not exactly QB-friendly.Yeah...stud numbers indeed.

well, if we are talking about fantasy, then Cutler was one of my main targets going in this season (in the leagues that dont penalize sacks, fumbles and picks heavily-yes Im in a few of those as well). If we're talking about real-life QBing, Id easily take a lot of other qbs out there who dont make mistakes.

 

[wdubb]

All QBs have made some asinine throws they shouldn't have made. Just last week I saw Drew Brees throw an underhanded lob at a tightly covered Saint player while he was in the grasp of a tackler in the act of bringing him down behind the line of scrimmage. And who was it that had a left-handed INT last week, too? I forget which QB it was, but I definitely remember a relatively highly-regarded QB throwing a pick with his off-hand. There are plenty of terrible decisions to go around. Hell, Peyton Manning threw 100 INTs in his first 5 years in the league. 100! Jay Cutler would have to throw 34 more INTs in his next 23 games in order to catch up with Peyton Manning's per-game INT rate through 80 games.

yeah, but none that I have seen in the last I dont know 10 years have had more of these asinine throws than Cutler (at least none of the QBs considered good and above). most elite QBs interceptions result from people making great plays (ie man-to-man db coverage) and miscues. besides Brett Favre, I havent seen a single QB make as many stupid decisions as Cutler. I know its not terribly quantitative, but that is just my impression. Believe it or not, Id say Alex Smith makes better decisions than Jay Cutler (and I hate Alex Smith and his decisions).

Where are you getting those rankings from? And Shanny and his ZBS hasn't always produced good runners. Denver ranked 14th in yards per carry back in 1999 with their 2nd string running back. A large part of Denver's per-play rushing success in 2008 was the Jay Cutler effect. Another large part of it was because Denver was 28th in rushing attempts- teams didn't defend the run too rigorously because Denver rarely ran back then. They just climbed on Jay Cutler's back and let him carry them. And he did carry them. He carried them to an 8-8 record despite sharing the backfield with a cell phone salesman and sharing the sidelines with one of the worst defenses of the last 20 years.

Im getting my rankings from football outsiders.as far as carrying them on their back, like i've said, I dont agree with it, especially with the fact that he had an elite oline and a top 10 wideout. sure, he got some yards and all, but he also threw some ######ed picks. and no one player ever carries a team on their back.I do not believe in the "you are forced to throw so you are bound to make stupid decisions" theory. just like I do not believe in the theory that a quarterback is the single most important position on the field and can carry a team by themselves unless they're HOF-bound.football is a team game. cutler, so far in his career, has been a liability to me. sure, hes better than a lot of qbs and has crazy potential. unfortunately, eliminating stupid decisions is one thing that is hard to teach.

 

[Bri]

If "last time I checked" was a censored phrase in this forum it would probably promote better discussion

 

[candymanvandyfan]

The problem too is that Martz still has his WRs running their downfield patterns and Cutler still taking a 7 step drop when defenses are brining the house.

I thought the same thing. Completely amazed he kept calling those plays. The WRs did nothing but run deep.

Not all of them. On a few of those sacks, Cutler had a man wide open short...and refused to check it down.Martz' system brings more sacks, but Cutler is causing some of them. His WR's are NOT bad at all....in fact...I'd say they were at least average (as a group).

Are you talking about the one inside a minute left to go in the half when they were trying to go 81 yards? Is that the one you wanted him to check down on? Handing the ball off or taking a knee would have been great at that point in the game too. If a draw play had been called instead of ANOTHER deep route from your own 19, maybe Cutler wouldn't feel pressure to drive 81 yards in 58 seconds in a game where he's already been sacked 8 times. That's stupid. That's bad play calling. That was dangerous and Cutler paid the price.The receivers aren't anywhere close to average. This is how bad they are: None of them would make the Cowboys roster as a wide receiver.

 

[candymanvandyfan]

no one bit on Jeff George post, really think that's a decent comparison

Why don't we compare the statistics of Jeff George against Jay Cutler for their first four years in the league? In his first four NFL seasons, Jeff George had 41 touchdowns, 46 interceptions , 9551 passing yards, 14 wins. Three of those seasons, he did not exceed ten touchdowns thrown. He did not exceed 3000 yards passing in any of those seasons. His completion rate was 57%. His passer rating was 72.In his first four NFL seasons, Jay Cutler had 81 touchdowns, 63 interceptions, 12,690 yards, 24 wins. He threw for 20 touchdowns or more in three seasons, and increased his touchdown numbers each year. He never had a season where his interceptions exceeded his touchdowns.He became one of only 15 players in NFL history to throw for more than 4500 yards in a single season. He became one of only four players ever to do it age 25 or younger.His completion rate was 62% and his passer rating was 84. He became one of four players in history to complete 1000 NFL passes age 26 or younger in his first four seasons. (The other three are Marino, P. Manning, and Bledsoe.) He became one of only five players in history to throw 80 or more touchdowns age 26 or younger in his first four seasons. (The other four are Marino, Roethlisberger, Unitas and P. Manning.)He became one of only five players in history to throw for in excess of 12,500 yards age 26 or younger in his first four seasons. (The other four are Marino, Manning, Bledsoe and Namath.)Jay Cutler, Peyton Manning, and Dan Marino are the only quarterbacks in NFL history to throw 80 or more touchdowns, have more than 12,500 passing yards, and complete 1000 NFL passes age 26 or younger in their first four seasons.Some of you overreact to a bad game here or there. We should do this same comparison for Elway, Aikman and Bradshaw and see how their statistics compare to Cutler after four years.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

What would his numbers look like?ortonish?

Cutler's o-line isn't that bad...the guy holds the ball forever. Don't think it coincidence that most of Martz' teams have lead the league in getting sacked. While most coaches adjust when other teams blitz, Martz still refuses to use extra guys to help out and block. Cutler has to read these blitzes better and get rid of the ball. The problem too is that Martz still has his WRs running their downfield patterns and Cutler still taking a 7 step drop when defenses are brining the house.

Martz typically has used the TE as a 6th offensive lineman and his backs will chip DE's before running routes. Have you seen any of the Bears games this year? The OL is probably the worst in the league at pass blocking.

Well since you saw the game did you see the stat they showed where Martz' offenses have led the league in sacks almost every year? Seems to me like HE is the problem...unless of course he just happened to coach on teams that had the worst O-lines in football every year.

So you're going to completely disregard the possibility that the Bears OL is terrible because Martz's offenses take a lot of sacks.

 

[BRONG]

The problem too is that Martz still has his WRs running their downfield patterns and Cutler still taking a 7 step drop when defenses are brining the house.

I thought the same thing. Completely amazed he kept calling those plays. The WRs did nothing but run deep.

Not all of them. On a few of those sacks, Cutler had a man wide open short...and refused to check it down.Martz' system brings more sacks, but Cutler is causing some of them. His WR's are NOT bad at all....in fact...I'd say they were at least average (as a group).

Are you talking about the one inside a minute left to go in the half when they were trying to go 81 yards? Is that the one you wanted him to check down on? Handing the ball off or taking a knee would have been great at that point in the game too. If a draw play had been called instead of ANOTHER deep route from your own 19, maybe Cutler wouldn't feel pressure to drive 81 yards in 58 seconds in a game where he's already been sacked 8 times. That's stupid. That's bad play calling. That was dangerous and Cutler paid the price.The receivers aren't anywhere close to average. This is how bad they are: None of them would make the Cowboys roster as a wide receiver.

81 yards? The game was close, they just needed to get into field goal range, but whatever...You do anything and everything it takes to protect your hero at all costs -- more than anyone on here that I have ever seen...and that is saying A LOT. You come across as a crappy, desperate lawyer, always reaching. In the process, your opinion on Cutler is beyond laughable. And I can't be the only one that usually skips over it now. The irony is that your Cutler mission, in the end, is hurt by it. You know that, right?

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

The problem too is that Martz still has his WRs running their downfield patterns and Cutler still taking a 7 step drop when defenses are brining the house.

I thought the same thing. Completely amazed he kept calling those plays. The WRs did nothing but run deep.

Not all of them. On a few of those sacks, Cutler had a man wide open short...and refused to check it down.Martz' system brings more sacks, but Cutler is causing some of them. His WR's are NOT bad at all....in fact...I'd say they were at least average (as a group).

Are you talking about the one inside a minute left to go in the half when they were trying to go 81 yards? Is that the one you wanted him to check down on? Handing the ball off or taking a knee would have been great at that point in the game too. If a draw play had been called instead of ANOTHER deep route from your own 19, maybe Cutler wouldn't feel pressure to drive 81 yards in 58 seconds in a game where he's already been sacked 8 times. That's stupid. That's bad play calling. That was dangerous and Cutler paid the price.The receivers aren't anywhere close to average. This is how bad they are: None of them would make the Cowboys roster as a wide receiver.

early in the game, maybe the first drive(??), hester beat his man and he was open for an easy td on about the 20 whencutler underthrew him with his cannon arm, making hester come back to the ball, and it got broken up by the corner.brady doesn't always hit moss with the perfect throw, but if you're going to put everything on the receivers, hester did his job and cutler eff'd up a td in a close game.I wouldn't insult brady by comparing a slug like cutler to him, but in the monday night game I watched brady hit guys who weren't any more open than cutler's receivers, and he did it without holding the ball all day trying to decide what to do.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

He had a pretty nice year in 2008. Why dont you continue to list the other 25 year old QBs who have thrown for 4500 yds and 25 TDs in a season. The guy was still learning the game, and while talented, this Bears team is not the 2008 Broncos

Dan MarinoDrew Bledsoe

Neil Lomax

4500 yards and 25 tds dont mean too much if you throw 18 picks and are constantly picked off in the redzone. we are talking about real life qbing here, right ?

he was still learning the game ? not really, his average numbers regressed from 2007.

look, jon kitna threw for 4000+ yards and threw 25 tds before. Im not saying that Cutler does not have potential, but this is a 'what if' thread, and Im saying that he had everything set up for him in Denver and he didnt do that well, definitely NOT in the GREAT range. He will not have as many weapons or such a good line again in Chicago anytime soon, so instead of playing 'what if', why not evaluate his 2008 season, when he had an elite oline and an elite wideout ?

According to DVOA, Jay Cutler played with the second worst defense of the past 15 years. He threw so many INTs because he was constantly trailing because his defense couldn't make any stops. Statistically speaking, all QBs throw INTs at a rate about 3 times higher when they're trailing than they do when they're tied or leading, so with a merely average defense, that 18-INT season might well have been just a 12-INT season.

why state something as fact when it's just your own poor assumption?the fact is, he was trailing so much 'cuz he kept throwing picks.

You know hidden under your Cutler hatred you were actually making some good points, until this post. Now we know it is fishing...You have to work the lure, reel in a little, jerk, reel a little, then when the fish is on, you snag and reel in as fast as you can.

haha....I'm not saying the '08 broncos defense didn't cost them games, but cutler needs to raise his hand on those picks.the knock on him, among other things, is that he's not a winner and not a leader.

in 2008 they failed to produce a winning season, going 8-8 -- cutler had his o-line and his stud wr, but let sd take the division on a tiebreaker, falling just a single win short.

in a loss against kc that year he threw 2 picks in the 3rd quarter with the score at 16-13.

the jax game he lost was decided by one score and he threw his pick in the first quarter with the score 7-3.

he lost the buffalo game by one score, getting picked off on buffalo's 15, following 2 incompletions to set up 3 and 10.

in the miami game, which he ended up losing by 9, he got picked off on the first drive on his own 20, his defense only giving up the fg --- the score was 0-0 at the time...

with the score 16-10 he opened the 4th quarter of that game by throwing a pick from his own 15 --- his defense once again holding miami to the fg.

that's half their 8 losses right there, when they only needed a single game!!

so, I don't want to hear any more of this ridiculous nonsense about how the sorry defense forces him to throw all those picks, how the sorry o-line can't keep him clean for 10 seconds on a throw, or how the sorry receivers can't get 10 yds separation.

funny how the bears sorry o-line gave up 9 sacks with cutler in the game and only 1 after he left --- but maybe the whole world's just out to get him.

edit ps

and while I'm at it, they got beat by oakland that year with cutler completing 43% of his throws for 200 yds, 0 td, 1 pick, and a 50 qb rating.

 

[SSOG]

why state something as fact when it's just your own poor assumption?

the fact is, he was trailing so much 'cuz he kept throwing picks.

Jay Cutler had four multi-INT games in 2008. In those 4 games, he threw 9 INTs. 8 of those 9 INTs came after Denver was already trailing.If he was trailing 'cuz he kept throwing picks, then how come he didn't start throwing picks until he was already trailing?

Another excuse...

Sanchez is only 23, on pace for 32 TDs and 0 INTs, with a 105 rating. He probably won't throw for 4500 yards, but he also won't have as many attempts.

Heck, JP Losman was pretty close to him on a per attempt basis at age 25. No one thinks he's a superstar in the making, and he was in a far worse situation than Cutler.

Sanchez? You're going to pull out Mark Sanchez? Mark Sanchez is playing with arguably the best defense and running game in the entire NFL. Jay Cutler was playing with a 7th string RB and possibly the worst defense of the past 20 years. End comparison.Since 1980, the only QBs with a higher ypa and TD:INT than Jay Cutler through age 25 (minimum 500 attempts) are Ben Roethlisberger, Boomer Esiason, Dan Marino, and Ken O'Brien. Seriously, did you miss the post where I pointed out that Jay Cutler could have 33 INTs in his next 23 games and Peyton Manning would still have more INTs through 80 starts than Cutler has?

Im getting my rankings from football outsiders.

as far as carrying them on their back, like i've said, I dont agree with it, especially with the fact that he had an elite oline and a top 10 wideout. sure, he got some yards and all, but he also threw some ######ed picks. and no one player ever carries a team on their back.

I do not believe in the "you are forced to throw so you are bound to make stupid decisions" theory.

just like I do not believe in the theory that a quarterback is the single most important position on the field and can carry a team by themselves unless they're HOF-bound.

football is a team game. cutler, so far in his career, has been a liability to me. sure, hes better than a lot of qbs and has crazy potential. unfortunately, eliminating stupid decisions is one thing that is hard to teach.

I've got a major problem with Football Outsiders' Offensive Line Rankings. For starters, I applaud their efforts to try to separate the impact of an O-Line from the RB, but the simple fact remains that a strong passing game will increase a team's OLY (because it keeps safeties from playing in the box), and an offensive line will produce a higher OLY with a back with good vision (who is picking the right hole) than with a back with bad vision (who keeps running into his blockers), which means even their measurement of how an offensive line performs independent of the RB... is dependent on the RB. OLY is a useful piece of information, but I wouldn't use it as the lynch pin of any arguments.Also, the "forced to throw = bound to make bad decisions" thing isn't a theory. It's an easily demonstrable fact that QBs throw more INTs when trailing than they do when they're ahead.

And "eliminating stupid decisions" is not at all hard to teach. All you have to do is surround a player with good teammates, and poof, the stupid decisions disappear. Don't believe me? Check out Jake Plummer's career sometime.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

why state something as fact when it's just your own poor assumption?

the fact is, he was trailing so much 'cuz he kept throwing picks.

Jay Cutler had four multi-INT games in 2008. In those 4 games, he threw 9 INTs. 8 of those 9 INTs came after Denver was already trailing.If he was trailing 'cuz he kept throwing picks, then how come he didn't start throwing picks until he was already trailing?

oh, I see --- the minute that horrible defense allows him to get down by 3 he's forced to start launching up picks.

you are ridiculous.

hey, while we're surrounding people with good teammates, how about we surround his teammates with a good qb?

maybe all these horrible players he's forced to play with will miraculously get better.

 

[sho nuff]

But to answer the original questions...judging by the comments...if Cutler had an Oline and WRs...the supporters would find another excuse for him.

Its the coaching...the defense...the running game...the sun was in his eyes...his uniform did not fit right....

 

[Bri]

Some of you overreact to a bad game here or there. We should do this same comparison for Elway, Aikman and Bradshaw and see how their statistics compare to Cutler after four years.

Thanks for Jeff George stats. I do see Cutler way better first four. I'd throw George some stats for padding due to playing in a different era, but still Cutler far better in the first four.He's unimpressive for me outside of Denver. He just looks like he has a nice arm. Martz's offense may be like Shanny's and have gone from a wonderful one that was once fantastic but over time they all learned to defense well. It might have happened. That'd be a natural progression in sports. Some of the Bears WR choice the last five(?) ten(?) years has been awfully easy to second guess and they clearly haven't been successful in landing a big time star despite "a million" draft picks spent on WRs. They have had two of the best TEs (IMO) the last so many years that I have always felt didn't receive enough praise. No Gates or Tony G but they got it done time and again regardless of what D they were playing. I have never understood the Bears and RBs since Sweetness. I don't think there's ever been a franchise where a RB suddenly is bad like the Bears. Pick one any one whether it's Neal Anderson, Anthony Thomas, Matt Forte rook til last year (yes I skipped plenty, it's still true though) why do they suddenly stink? all of them? That consequently brings a truckload of wasted draft picks on replacement RBs.Their D has been good to great with some regularity over the years, regardless of who is playing for them.Their O-line has been underrated and pretty bad and back to underrated IMO. For the most part, they've been OK.Their ST have been phenomenal at times-like all time best good. I mean they even tackled well when Hester was dominant so it was both ways. Martz's O is complex, but listen to Warner or Green describe it and it's mostly quick well-timed passes for new quarterbacks until Martz really gets into it. Assuming Cutler still has a vanilla Martz O to run, he should be able to do that and to hear two former QBs state how Martz is aware of the transition to learning it all, I'm going to assume Cutler is being placed in a good position to both learn it and succeed.I'm pretty sure I got most of the excuses out.Now I saw Torry Holt catch what seemed like 10,000 quick slants from Warner in this same O and it was so super fast it was a pain in the neck to stop even though it was super predictable. Why can't Cutler hit Hester 10,000 times like that? There's not too much skill in a simple slant, Hester and young Holt are probably similarly fast on that quick route so...why not?I incorrectly stated this wasn't a TE friendly O but those that brought up Tony G and some variation were correct. Olsen is not best ever good, but he can make a decent amount of routine catches that Tony G made. Why isn't he?Marshall Faulk was a phenomenal two way threat in St. Louis. Matt Forte has averaged 60 catches his first two years in the league and is an above average receiving back. His rushing stats stink (but they always have without a FB) but he was 7 for 151 yards in week one.So why is Cutler unimpressive? There are enough elements there to help him succeed?What do you think?My guess is he's thinking too much and might just need to throw it. Just be a gunslinger and see what happens one week. I've seen him back behind the LOS for far too long a time that I figure there's gotta be some indecisiveness. There's a point that it's his fault if he gets hit after taking too long. But again, Martz's O is well timed passes. There should not be an occasion that he's back there a long time. So, yet again, it makes me think indecisiveness and maybe he just needs to sling it one game and get comfy get back to not overthinking etc.You're a fan it seems so what do you think his issue is this year?

 

[az_prof]

50% or more of the starting QBs in the NFL could be superstars if they had a great OL and great WRs. Frankly, that schtick doesn't cut it with Cutler anymore. He has some pretty good receivers in Knox, Olsen, Hester and Bennett. They definitely are not in the bottom third of receivers.

A great QB knows how to quickly identify the open man when he is blitzed. He knows how to get rid of the ball quickly. He senses the pressures and avoids it. Cutler folds under pressure and that is why he has never been a winner.

 

[SSOG]

oh, I see --- the minute that horrible defense allows him to get down by 3 he's forced to start launching up picks.you are ridiculous.hey, while we're surrounding people with good teammates, how about we surround his teammates with a good qb?maybe all these horrible players he's forced to play with will miraculously get better.

3 points, 18 points, 27 points, it's all pretty much the same, right? Average score at the time of those 9 INTs was Denver down by 10.4. For further details, see my sig.

But to answer the original questions...judging by the comments...if Cutler had an Oline and WRs...the supporters would find another excuse for him.Its the coaching...the defense...the running game...the sun was in his eyes...his uniform did not fit right....

Why would his supporters need to make excuses? His numbers don't need excusing. Even after the debacle that was last Sunday Night, Cutler's still 2nd in the league in YPA and he's even still 10th in the league in ANYPA, which penalizes players for taking sacks. With Chicago's offensive line and receiving corps. There's absolutely nothing to excuse.Through 57 career starts, Cutler has 13,602 yards, 87 scores, and 66 INTs. Through his first 57 career starts, Peyton Manning had 14,111 yards, 102 scores, and 70 INTs (and he'd throw 8 more INTs in games 58, 59, and 60). And remember, Peyton was putting up his numbers with Marvin Harrison, Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, and Marcus Pollard. Cutler's held to impossibly high standards because he got traded for a king's ransom, but the simple fact is that he's every single thing he was billed to be at the time of the trade. And a lot of the "haters" are going to look awfully dumb over the next 5 years as Cutler goes out and proves it.

 

[FUBAR]

He has a better WR core than a number of QBs outperforming him.

His OL isn't great, but no OL is when you hold the ball for 5-6 seconds.

The guy is still #12 in my leagues behind Peyton, Rivers, Orton, Rodgers, Vick, Brees, Brady, Sanchez, Schaub, Ryan, McNabb. Which of those have worse receivers?

You could make an argument either way on a couple of these guys, but McNabb (nothing after Moss) and Ryan (nothing after White) are gimmes while Rivers and Orton similarly lack a true #1 (unless you count Gates). Cutler doesn't have a standout #1, but he has decent receivers.

why does everyone seem to ignore TEs in this discussion? (yes, I realize you mentioned Gates as an afterthought) Cooley and Gonzo are still better than anything Cutler has. Although Gonzo is getting old, he's still decent. The Bears really should have gotten into the Moss discussion.

 

[FUBAR]

50% or more of the starting QBs in the NFL could be superstars if they had a great OL and great WRs. Frankly, that schtick doesn't cut it with Cutler anymore. He has some pretty good receivers in Knox, Olsen, Hester and Bennett. They definitely are not in the bottom third of receivers.

A great QB knows how to quickly identify the open man when he is blitzed. He knows how to get rid of the ball quickly. He senses the pressures and avoids it. Cutler folds under pressure and that is why he has never been a winner.

I agree with your point, Brady did just fine with crappola at receiver, but I think you're overestimating the Bears WRs.

I see Cutler as more in the mold of Warner than Ben or Brady, he's a QB that needs time. Doesn't make him a horrible QB, but it could make his GM a horrible GM if he doesn't realize and work to accomodate his weaknesses

 

[switz]

oh, I see --- the minute that horrible defense allows him to get down by 3 he's forced to start launching up picks.you are ridiculous.hey, while we're surrounding people with good teammates, how about we surround his teammates with a good qb?maybe all these horrible players he's forced to play with will miraculously get better.

3 points, 18 points, 27 points, it's all pretty much the same, right? Average score at the time of those 9 INTs was Denver down by 10.4. For further details, see my sig.

No, down by 3, 18, and 27 are all VERY different. And 10.4 is not a huge amount either depending on how much time is left in the game. Goodness if a QB starts throwing picks left and right when only down by 3, he can't handle pressure well.I've outlined previously a few games where Cutler threw multiple INTs when the game was well within reach. These lousy excuses for him have to stop.

 

[sho nuff]

Why would his supporters need to make excuses? His numbers don't need excusing. Even after the debacle that was last Sunday Night, Cutler's still 2nd in the league in YPA and he's even still 10th in the league in ANYPA, which penalizes players for taking sacks. With Chicago's offensive line and receiving corps. There's absolutely nothing to excuse.Through 57 career starts, Cutler has 13,602 yards, 87 scores, and 66 INTs. Through his first 57 career starts, Peyton Manning had 14,111 yards, 102 scores, and 70 INTs (and he'd throw 8 more INTs in games 58, 59, and 60). And remember, Peyton was putting up his numbers with Marvin Harrison, Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, and Marcus Pollard. Cutler's held to impossibly high standards because he got traded for a king's ransom, but the simple fact is that he's every single thing he was billed to be at the time of the trade. And a lot of the "haters" are going to look awfully dumb over the next 5 years as Cutler goes out and proves it.

I don't know...why do you all continue to make excuses for him?

 

[whitem0nkey]

Jay Cutler leads the NFC with a fourth quarter passer rating of 133.4

 

[geoff8695]

Anyone who has paid attention to Bears' games this year, has seen Cutler getting beat up while still putting up strong stats prior to being quite literally "knocked out" of the Giants game on Sunday night. Yet for some reason several posters around here feel compelled to bag on this young talented QB and label anyone who tries to counter their criticsms, as "excuse makers". I'm left scratching my head as to what Cutler has done to earn such dedicated hate and to become one of the SP's most polarizing figures.

From one of the other Cutler hatefests that erupted following Sunday night's game, where 'mistersmith' posted this article Cutler beating a reminder of Martz’s system flaws:

you can point the finger at cutler, you can point the finger at the o-line...its justified.

but is there something to this article? qbs taking a beating under the martz system?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-w...andlosers100410

THISread the article it's a combination of Martz system putting the QB in harm's way + an atrocious Oline + Cutler's concussion (who knows on which sack he was concussed - there were several to choose from not including the hits he took on plays where he wasn't sacked...)

Cutler had a rough 1st year with the Bears, but has been very good so far this year by comparison. He is a franchise type QB and he gives the Bears a chance to win games they otherwise would have no business winning. However, if Martz and a subpar oline are going to get him killed or shaken so badly that it ruins him, it won't matter much. Then all of the Cutler haters can pat themselves on the back for how they just knew he was no damn good!

I'm as concerned about Cutler's future as anyone, and I do worry that the current situation could lead to a downturn in his career, but that's a very different argument from Cutler is... "dumb, selfish, NOT a leader, NOT a winner, terrible, over-rated, etc". SSOG has posted numerical comparisons that at least include factual supports for his arguments. Most of the rest of this thread is purely personal opinion, and not even well informed opinion at that...

 

[BRONG]

Jay Cutler leads the NFC with a fourth quarter passer rating of 133.4

Nice 3 quarter sample, with two of them at home...besides another he was too afraid to go back out for. Neat.

 

[sho nuff]

Jay Cutler leads the NFC with a fourth quarter passer rating of 133.4

Of course...he missed one fourth quarter.

 

[switz]

SSOG has posted numerical comparisons that at least include factual supports for his arguments. Most of the rest of this thread is purely personal opinion, and not even well informed opinion at that...

you mean like discounting ALL of Cutler's INTs as not his fault if the team was trailing, even by just three points? Yeah, that's factual support

 

[geoff8695]

SSOG has posted numerical comparisons that at least include factual supports for his arguments. Most of the rest of this thread is purely personal opinion, and not even well informed opinion at that...

you mean like discounting ALL of Cutler's INTs as not his fault if the team was trailing, even by just three points? Yeah, that's factual support

:( No i mean like comparing his first 57 NFL games to other QBs over similar periods of time and finding that his numbers don't seem to be trending towards the doom and gloom that haters would try to have us believe.But if you want to go back and analyze Peyton Manning's interceptions from his first 57 - 60 games go ahead and knock yourself out. I'm sure it will totally change my "delusions" about Cutler demonstrating real NFL talent by statistical comparison.

 

[two_dollars]

Jay Cutler leads the NFC with a fourth quarter passer rating of 133.4 :(

 

[two_dollars]

Jay Cutler leads the NFC with a fourth quarter passer rating of 133.4

Of course...he missed one fourth quarter.

Proof that Jay C is held to impossible standards. 75% isn't good enough, even when the other 25% isn't bad, just missing.

 

[switz]

Jay Cutler leads the NFC with a fourth quarter passer rating of 133.4

Of course...he missed one fourth quarter.

Proof that Jay C is held to impossible standards. 75% isn't good enough, even when the other 25% isn't bad, just missing.

No, proof that Cutler backers will do whatever they can to make him look better than he really is... Come on! If the one 4th quarter isn't bad, why exclude it? Why inflate his numbers?

 

[two_dollars]

Jay Cutler leads the NFC with a fourth quarter passer rating of 133.4

Of course...he missed one fourth quarter.

Proof that Jay C is held to impossible standards. 75% isn't good enough, even when the other 25% isn't bad, just missing.

No, proof that Cutler backers will do whatever they can to make him look better than he really is... Come on! If the one 4th quarter isn't bad, why exclude it? Why inflate his numbers?

There is no "4th" 4th quarter, Swiss.

 

[geoff8695]

Jay Cutler leads the NFC with a fourth quarter passer rating of 133.4

Of course...he missed one fourth quarter.

Proof that Jay C is held to impossible standards. 75% isn't good enough, even when the other 25% isn't bad, just missing.

No, proof that Cutler backers will do whatever they can to make him look better than he really is... Come on! If the one 4th quarter isn't bad, why exclude it? Why inflate his numbers?

Ummmm..... Maybe it's 'excluded' because he's only played in three 4th quarters this season? How exactly do you include a passer rating for a quarter that he didn't play in because he was being treated for a concussion?The only proof here is that the Cutler haters will do whatever they can to make him look worse than he really is...

 

[switz]

Jay Cutler leads the NFC with a fourth quarter passer rating of 133.4

Of course...he missed one fourth quarter.

Proof that Jay C is held to impossible standards. 75% isn't good enough, even when the other 25% isn't bad, just missing.

No, proof that Cutler backers will do whatever they can to make him look better than he really is... Come on! If the one 4th quarter isn't bad, why exclude it? Why inflate his numbers?

There is no "4th" 4th quarter, Swiss.

Sarcasm meter down? The previous poster was clearly over the top, I was just dishing it back.

 

[switz]

Jay Cutler leads the NFC with a fourth quarter passer rating of 133.4

Of course...he missed one fourth quarter.

Proof that Jay C is held to impossible standards. 75% isn't good enough, even when the other 25% isn't bad, just missing.

No, proof that Cutler backers will do whatever they can to make him look better than he really is... Come on! If the one 4th quarter isn't bad, why exclude it? Why inflate his numbers?

Ummmm..... Maybe it's 'excluded' because he's only played in three 4th quarters this season?

How exactly do you include a passer rating for a quarter that he didn't play in because he was being treated for a concussion?

The only proof here is that the Cutler haters will do whatever they can to make him look worse than he really is...

 

[geoff8695]

Sarcasm meter down? The previous poster was clearly over the top, I was just dishing it back.

Unfortunately the level of negative hyperbole you and some of the other Cutler haters are polluting these threads with makes it difficult to know what is shtick, what is fishing, and what is sarcasm.

 

[Dr. Malo]

well let's see.Mike Shanahan as his head coach/oc: checknumber 1 ranked Oline in run blocking: checknumber 4 ranked Oline in pass protection: checkBrandon Marshall as an #1 receiver: checktalented arsenal of stokley, royal, scheffler: checkgazillion of random RBs who as a unit averaged 5 ypc: checkresult ?25 tds/18 picks, leading the NFL in red zone interceptions, 86 QB rating.eh slightly above average, nothing more.why do people act like Cutler has never had good wideouts and a great oline ?

Couldn't say it any better! We tried this already. It was the 2008 Broncos. He was mediocre. I think it comes down to attitude. He isn't teachable, isn't willing to work hard, take ownership of his mistakes and work hard at getting better. He just blames everyone else. I think the Oline got tired of being blamed and let him have it that last game.

 

[candymanvandyfan]

The problem too is that Martz still has his WRs running their downfield patterns and Cutler still taking a 7 step drop when defenses are brining the house.

I thought the same thing. Completely amazed he kept calling those plays. The WRs did nothing but run deep.

Not all of them. On a few of those sacks, Cutler had a man wide open short...and refused to check it down.Martz' system brings more sacks, but Cutler is causing some of them. His WR's are NOT bad at all....in fact...I'd say they were at least average (as a group).

Are you talking about the one inside a minute left to go in the half when they were trying to go 81 yards? Is that the one you wanted him to check down on? Handing the ball off or taking a knee would have been great at that point in the game too. If a draw play had been called instead of ANOTHER deep route from your own 19, maybe Cutler wouldn't feel pressure to drive 81 yards in 58 seconds in a game where he's already been sacked 8 times. That's stupid. That's bad play calling. That was dangerous and Cutler paid the price.The receivers aren't anywhere close to average. This is how bad they are: None of them would make the Cowboys roster as a wide receiver.

81 yards? The game was close, they just needed to get into field goal range, but whatever...You do anything and everything it takes to protect your hero at all costs -- more than anyone on here that I have ever seen...and that is saying A LOT. You come across as a crappy, desperate lawyer, always reaching. In the process, your opinion on Cutler is beyond laughable. And I can't be the only one that usually skips over it now. The irony is that your Cutler mission, in the end, is hurt by it. You know that, right?

BRONG,The "Cutler Mission" isn't affected by anything I write here. Kindly ease up on the personal stuff. I won't refer to you as desperate or crappy. If you'd extend me the same courtesy, I'd appreciate it.In the last minute of the half this year, I have seen two of the best young arms in the game go down with ridiculous attempts to hold the ball too long and then heave the ball a country mile to try to get some late-breaking points. Play the Matt Stafford tape at the end of the first half of the Lions first game. The Cutler one has already been mentioned. Tony Romo's idiotic "pass" at the end of the first half in the Dallas/Washington game could have just as easily gotten him or Choice pointlessly hurt. There's no reason to try this stuff, least of all when you're having the stuffing beaten out of you. That's really my point.These are the three plays I'm talking about:STAFFORD29 seconds left in the half: (No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Stafford sacked at DET 36 for -9 yards (J.Peppers). FUMBLES (J.Peppers)CUTLER58 seconds left to go in the half: J.Cutler sacked at CHI 12 for -7 yards (A.Ross).ROMO4 seconds left to go in the half: (Shotgun) T.Romo pass short right to T.Choice to DAL 37 for 1 yard (D.Hall). FUMBLES (D.Hall), RECOVERED by WAS-D.Hall at DAL 32. D.Hall for 32 yards, TOUCHDOWN.A traditional offense would suit Jay's talents fine. With his arm, he doesn't need Martz. There's a reason nobody else is running this stuff. He will succeed in this offense, but he's going to take a lot of shots doing it and pick up some "skills" that won't transfer to the next offense.

 

[candymanvandyfan]

A great QB knows how to quickly identify the open man when he is blitzed. He knows how to get rid of the ball quickly. He senses the pressures and avoids it. Cutler folds under pressure and that is why he has never been a winner.

This was Jay's line aginst the blitz last year:112 completions for 187 attempts for 1,388 yards, 14 touchdowns, 8 interceptions and a 90.1 passer rating.While the last game does not indicate this, he actually has better numbers when they blitz and worse numbers when they clutter the coverage.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

A great QB knows how to quickly identify the open man when he is blitzed. He knows how to get rid of the ball quickly. He senses the pressures and avoids it. Cutler folds under pressure and that is why he has never been a winner.

This was Jay's line aginst the blitz last year:112 completions for 187 attempts for 1,388 yards, 14 touchdowns, 8 interceptions and a 90.1 passer rating.While the last game does not indicate this, he actually has better numbers when they blitz and worse numbers when they clutter the coverage.

they didn't blitz much the last game.maybe that was his problem.....

 

[Pnishthm]

What would his numbers look like?ortonish?

Cutler's o-line isn't that bad...the guy holds the ball forever. Don't think it coincidence that most of Martz' teams have lead the league in getting sacked. While most coaches adjust when other teams blitz, Martz still refuses to use extra guys to help out and block. Cutler has to read these blitzes better and get rid of the ball. The problem too is that Martz still has his WRs running their downfield patterns and Cutler still taking a 7 step drop when defenses are brining the house.

Martz typically has used the TE as a 6th offensive lineman and his backs will chip DE's before running routes. Have you seen any of the Bears games this year? The OL is probably the worst in the league at pass blocking.

Well since you saw the game did you see the stat they showed where Martz' offenses have led the league in sacks almost every year? Seems to me like HE is the problem...unless of course he just happened to coach on teams that had the worst O-lines in football every year.

So you're going to completely disregard the possibility that the Bears OL is terrible because Martz's offenses take a lot of sacks.

No I won't completely disregard it. But it makes more sense to me that if the trend is that Martz' o-lines lead the league in sacks almost EVERY SINGLE YEAR...then it's more likely that it's on his offensive philosophy rather than the o-line. I'm just sayin... :(

 

[sho nuff]

SSOG has posted numerical comparisons that at least include factual supports for his arguments. Most of the rest of this thread is purely personal opinion, and not even well informed opinion at that...

you mean like discounting ALL of Cutler's INTs as not his fault if the team was trailing, even by just three points? Yeah, that's factual support :(

No i mean like comparing his first 57 NFL games to other QBs over similar periods of time and finding that his numbers don't seem to be trending towards the doom and gloom that haters would try to have us believe.But if you want to go back and analyze Peyton Manning's interceptions from his first 57 - 60 games go ahead and knock yourself out. I'm sure it will totally change my "delusions" about Cutler demonstrating real NFL talent by statistical comparison.

I don't think many are saying the guy can't improve.They are saying he needs to.Comparing what Manning did is great. Many were on Manning for his play back then too.Though, watch Manning play even back then and you had a feeling he would get better.Im not sure how many really get that feeling about Cutler.Will he improve...will he work as hard as Manning does to get better?I don't know.

 

[sho nuff]

Jay Cutler leads the NFC with a fourth quarter passer rating of 133.4 :(

Of course...he missed one fourth quarter.

Proof that Jay C is held to impossible standards. 75% isn't good enough, even when the other 25% isn't bad, just missing.

It was a joke.And Im not holding him to impossible standards...just pointing out that he did, in fact, miss a fourth quarter.Given the way that game was going...do you think his numbers might come down a bit?Also...the Cutler supporters like to put a lot of weight on the 4 games this season...and continue to excuse previous seasons (except his good play of course).For example...his 4th quarter rating last year was 73.4

 

[sho nuff]

Sarcasm meter down? The previous poster was clearly over the top, I was just dishing it back.

Unfortunately the level of negative hyperbole you and some of the other Cutler haters are polluting these threads with makes it difficult to know what is shtick, what is fishing, and what is sarcasm.

Whats funny is anyone who criticizes a player...evenn complete legit criticism...is labeled a hater.Its laughable.I don't hate Cutler.I thought he would be the best of the 3 QBs drafted that year.He certainly has the talent to be...but when its questionable whether he is a better player than Vince Young...thats not a good thing.

 

[renesauz]

Sarcasm meter down? The previous poster was clearly over the top, I was just dishing it back.

Unfortunately the level of negative hyperbole you and some of the other Cutler haters are polluting these threads with makes it difficult to know what is shtick, what is fishing, and what is sarcasm.

Whats funny is anyone who criticizes a player...evenn complete legit criticism...is labeled a hater.Its laughable.I don't hate Cutler.I thought he would be the best of the 3 QBs drafted that year.He certainly has the talent to be...but when its questionable whether he is a better player than Vince Young...thats not a good thing.

I'm more then a little bit confused about the hater labels here myself. I happen to like Cutler...a lot. I think he's destined to be a perrenial type five type fantasy QB, AND a perrenial pro-bowl caliber NFL QB. I own him on a few teams. The excuses about his WR's are ridiculous....Knox and Hester are both legit NFL starting caliber WR's while Aroma and Bennett would make most rosters. (They are however, a bit young and relatively inexperianced..THAT argument is sound)That said...his performance against the Giants was ABYSMAL. He missed open recievers both visually (not throwing it) and physically (poor throws). He was holding the ball FOREVER in the face of a good pass rush. True...Martz' system and a weak O-line certainly didn't help, but no starting caliber NFL QB should have taken more then 3 or 4 sacks in that game...tops.Before the game the announcers talked about how Cutler has not fared well in prime time games. I thought nothing of it at the time...but he looked to me like a guy trying way too hard to make something good happen...instead of giving his team-mates a chance to make something good happen.True haters found ammo here. The lovers are defending him blindly. Some of us see an issue...he's not yet an elite guy, and there's a red flag...he may not be able to handle the spotlight of a big game. But is that a "fantasy QB" issue or an "NFL QB" issue? Lucky for us who own him....he doesn't play that many prime time games during the fantasy season!

 

[switz]

Sarcasm meter down? The previous poster was clearly over the top, I was just dishing it back.

Unfortunately the level of negative hyperbole you and some of the other Cutler haters are polluting these threads with makes it difficult to know what is shtick, what is fishing, and what is sarcasm.

Whats funny is anyone who criticizes a player...evenn complete legit criticism...is labeled a hater.Its laughable.I don't hate Cutler.I thought he would be the best of the 3 QBs drafted that year.He certainly has the talent to be...but when its questionable whether he is a better player than Vince Young...thats not a good thing.

I don't hate Cutler either. I think he has the tools to be a good QB if he can keep his head on straight. I don't think he is a guy that's going to end up in the HOF or anything, but I don't think he's Ryan Leaf either. I didn't see Chicago make a big upgrade when they traded for him, and I think a lot of Cutler fans and Bears fans have unrealistic expectations for him. But I don't hate him or wish for him to fail. I just disagree with Cutler lovers on his potential. You don't have to hate a player to have a different opinion about him.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

I was listening to sirius nfl today and they had a breakdown of his sacks --- 3 of the 9 he held the ball 6+ seconds, and another 3 were blitzers that he didn't spot.