I'm Beginning To Think I Did This All Wrong With The Whole Not Having Children Thing (1 Viewer)

[rockaction]

In fact, people got all agita about somebody calling Megan Rapinoe (Ra-pee'noe) "that guy," and the guy who raised the biggest stink about it is liking posts about somebody elderly going off to die in the woods. It just fits so nicely with today's environment.

 

[Capella]

Man I love my boy. He’s the best thing ever. Probably not for everybody but I’m not particularly career focused or driven to climb the ladder - just enjoying my time with him and my wife.

 

[rockaction]

Whoa. Yeah, I'm reporting this. This is off the rails.

Wow. Of course you're reporting it. Just like the PSF. Gutless.

 

[rockaction]

If your reason for having kids is for them to have to deal with your dementia, maybe better off not. We've been through some Alzheimer's, ALS, and cancer in our families and I'll be using my last wits and strength to wheel my chair off a roof before putting my kids through that.

Wow, people are really missing the point here and making it too much about motive in a post that is obviously designed to get into a totally selfish mindset.

This is certainly A Modest Proposal.

 

[rockaction]

I think in like my near 20 years here this is maybe my second time reporting somebody. I never reported anybody in the PSF.

You're off the rails here. Take a breathe.

Then you need to step back and think about it.

I'm not off the rails. You're doing that PSF ******** where you keep hectoring somebody for a link. I didn't abide it there, and I won't abide it here.

 

[rockaction]

Oh forget it. Good day.

 

[pollardsvision]

You know how to make a good thread, my brotha.

Thanks, man.

I could be wrong, but I think you're joking about the "elder care" thing.

I am not that venal or selfish. I am in the process of being around for my parents' elder care, so it's constantly on my mind. There's no doubt that colors my thoughts. But there are also a multitude of old jokes and tons of folk wisdom regarding our end-of-care on this earth. I've seen it in the generations of my own family. As a teen, I watched my grandmother basically die on the couch. It was really sad, but my Mom was determined to care for her the best my Mom could. That said a lot about my mother and my grandmother, who was by most accounts (except for my Mom's) a horrible alcoholic and terrible parent. It said a lot about how I was raised regarding the importance of family and what it all means for the end of life.

In fact, I'm surprised people are so callous as to talk about going to die in the woods and **** like that. There is a serious lack of dignity and respect for the elderly in our society, and it is embodied in some of the responses I'm reading. It's never, ever why I would think of having kids, but to be so callous is just a sign of a malformed mind that needs some existential and spiritual succor.

I hear you man.
The lack of care/callousness for the elderly is astounding. Of course, most of them had kids.

I'm a little slow, but I think I'm getting it.
You're mostly hitting at the loyalty kids have to horrible, absent, and/or abusive parents.

I haven't been there, but I know it's real. I was blessed with some awesome folks. But everybody I know that wasn't spent decades looking for some absolution and never found it.

 

[rockaction]

You're mostly hitting at the loyalty kids have to horrible, absent, and/or abusive parents.

Well, not necessarily. That's just a tangent and a bit of existential lament. The world would probably be much better if we didn't have such filial piety, but it wasn't the thrust of what I'm saying. There seems to be no justice in the offing for really crappy parents. Their kids don't even turn on them.

I'm basically saying that the mindset of people bringing in children to the world only to discard, neglect, or abuse them is probably the most selfish thing in the world you could possibly do. It's more a thread in keeping with the character Tod from the movie Parenthood, who lamented "You need to get a license to drive a car but any [jerk] can be a parent." It's sad. Watching the wreckage of those situations is probably what motivated me to post this.

That and good old-fashioned possible regret that I didn't have kids. It's all in there. I just thought to myself, "Yeah, but what are your reasons?" and thought about what would be the reasons, and I came up with what I thought was the worst attitude towards childrearing I could muster in keeping with the topic.

It was an exercise and I think people think I'm serious about the "take care of me bit" as a reason to have children. It's the worst reason one could have.

 

[rockaction]

I acknowledge I probably shouldn't have used the "wat" but I was flabbergasted by your post.

Woz, probably after you demand a link twice and then use "wat" in response to my response, you're (to me) acting like the bad actors in the PSF, and therefore just another internet idiot I could do without. That's when you get a hostile response like I gave.

Allow me to apologize for tone and language. It would have been better off had I not gone off.

 

[Northern Voice]

I have an older brother almost exactly 10 years older than me. He had a friend who always said "he was too selfish to have kids" he eventually did, he/they are fine.

And my older brother always wanted kids. Despite being 10 years older than me and having to deal with me... and so he did. And so I got to have the experience of nieces and babies and young kids and they were fantastic, but still..

... like others up thread have said I never had the pull or inclination or desire to have kids. And I adore my life. The sporting events and concerts and friends and experiences I've had, I couldn't have had half with children to raise. And my relationship with my wife is incredible.

But I don't think I'm selfish. I think I'm one of the most caring, giving people I know. I just don't want kids. And I do worry about myself or my wife (probably her) being old and lonely but I don't think I'd change the live I've lived til now at all.

 

[rockaction]

But I don't think I'm selfish.

I'm the same way (childless), so if this is directed at the guy who started the thread (me), I never meant to imply that. That wasn't even crossing my mind. If other people said that in here, I'd hope they think long and hard about it.

 

[Northern Voice]

But I don't think I'm selfish.

I'm the same way (childless), so if this is directed at the guy who started the thread (me), I never meant to imply that. That wasn't even crossing my mind. If other people said that in here, I'd hope they think long and hard about it.

No not at all at you, I think there have been a couple passing mentions of "too selfish for children" and it resonated because I'd heard it before.

 

[-OZ-]

Uh...... You are not your kids responsibility. We are adamant that we wil not be a burden on our children.

Exactly. My wife every so often will comment about how our kids will take care of us when we’re old. I respond with either “I’m not going to get old and decrepit” or “I’ll pay a hot nurse to take care of me if you can’t”.

Definitely don’t have kids with the idea that they’ll take care of you later.

 

[rockaction]

too selfish for children

I thought that was the childless themselves who were being self-effacing or harsh on themselves because it is indeed an old-fashioned criticism, probably born from material and sustenance want in agricultural societies. (More kids, more farmers, more food.)

The economics of the family are crazy. Took a course in college about a bunch of different economic ways of looking at the family. That's probably where the "selfish" charge comes in. Not enough replacement babies to, ahem, care for the aging either through deed or taxation.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

too selfish for children

I thought that was the childless themselves who were being self-effacing or harsh on themselves because it is indeed an old-fashioned criticism, probably born from material and sustenance want in agricultural societies. (More kids, more farmers, more food.)

The economics of the family are crazy. Took a course in college about a bunch of different economic ways of looking at the family. That's probably where the "selfish" charge comes in. Not enough replacement babies to, ahem, care for the aging either through deed or taxation.

I’ve only heard that term used by people that don’t want kids (saying they were too selfish). I haven’t heard it used derisively, but I’m not big on social media and some of the back and forth that may be out there.

 

[-OZ-]

As a father of four young kids - whom I love very much but who cause significant stress on a daily basis* - my sentiment is that if you were uncertain about whether to have kids you absolutely made the right decision by not having them.

*And it's my wife who deals with them mostly because I work a million hours. She's a saint and zero chance I could handle them without her.

Totally agreed and my wife was the same while I was active duty.
Taking care of the 4 by myself for 5 months was challenging enough. And at that point they were old enough to be left alone safely for a few hours.

 

[rockaction]

Definitely don’t have kids with the idea that they’ll take care of you later.

It's a weird thing. It's a bad idea and a selfish one, but that it's too gauche to talk about or have considered is silliness.

What, if anything, is Social Security and Medicare? It's a tax on the productive to care for the aging as we approach infirmity.

We do this every day in life. We take care of the elderly in deed, spirit, and expenditure.

I wonder why on earth has that been the hot button in all of this? Maybe because illegitimacy is no longer illegitimate with all that entailed, but now simply out-of-wedlock and accepted. In multitudes.

I can't believe I'm defending the guy in the OP, but he's at least in keeping with reality.

 

[Northern Voice]

too selfish for children

That's probably where the "selfish" charge comes in. Not enough replacement babies to, ahem, care for the aging either through deed or taxation.

Well, yeah... Canada is a prime example of less and less babies and more and more immigration (and going beyond this gets too political for the FFA but I'll just say I'm very fine with it).

 

[massraider]

We do this every day in life. We take care of the elderly in deed, spirit, and expenditure.

And now we are doing it for 20 years longer than we used to.

 

[-OZ-]

Definitely don’t have kids with the idea that they’ll take care of you later.

It's a weird thing. It's a bad idea and a selfish one, but that it's too gauche to talk about or have considered is silliness.

What, if anything, is Social Security and Medicare? It's a tax on the productive to care for the aging as we approach infirmity.

We do this every day in life. We take care of the elderly in deed, spirit, and expenditure.

I wonder why on earth has that been the hot button in all of this? Maybe because illegitimacy is no longer illegitimate with all that entailed, but now simply out-of-wedlock and accepted. In multitudes.

I can't believe I'm defending the guy in the OP, but he's at least in keeping with reality.

At least with SS, in theory we get back what we paid in, on average.
I’m not really sure what point we’re making here, but the more capable have generally taken care of those in need - whether that’s elderly, handicapped, poor, young, etc.

 

[dickey moe]

I'm basically saying that the mindset of people bringing in children to the world only to discard, neglect, or abuse them is probably the most selfish thing in the world you could possibly do.

This.

Parenthood is the most important responsibility in the world. It is also a huge sacrifice. But when done right it is also a blessing. Your children are the embodiment of hope for a better world.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I really don’t like the idea of having kids under the assumption they’ll care for you when infirmity sets in. Parenting should be a selfless act imo, though it’s ultimately a selfish action, as far as biology and the planet are concerned.

No kids here, and no regrets. Often think it’s the best decision my wife and I ever made.

 

[Caveman33]

Didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

No, feel free to speak freely.

Anybody here in family law? Tell me about what the courts and experts have begun to realize and practice.

Oof, STEADY just did.

About 10 years ago my wife’s dad convinced my wife to co-sign on his house.

He’s left everyone he’s married with kids to care for

Now he’s left his latest wife home alone while he attends college across the country, sending out go fund me.

Here's the sad truth:

You can pretty much totally ignore your offspring and they'll still feel a sense of fidelity to you. In study after study, case after case, this is so. Neglectful households. Abusive households. The pull towards our biological parents is so strong that it trumps even the loving care of a benevolent stepparent. I don't think a genial guy that visits every two months is going to run off his offspring in any way. Absence can make the heart grow fonder and often does when it comes to fathers. As a matter of fact, studies have shown that the more time a father spends with his child past a certain limit, the less well-off emotionally and spiritually that child is likely to be.

My parents were fairly good people who always had the best intentions but (imo) failed me in a big way regarding an unusual deformity I developed as a teen. I emotionally disconnected from them at that point and moved away from home after high school. But a decade later, I reached a new low and crawled back to where I could at least lay in bed and still have food. That was not a good situation and eventually I decided to leave and cut them out of my life. A big factor in this decision was that I could see how the future was developing with my dad's deteriorating health and my mom likely to live a long time. I carried too much resentment and didn't want to stick around to experience any negative developments in their lives. All of my siblings were married and living in other cities. I was glad that my parents hadn't paid for my college or bought me a house. I feel like I owe them nothing.

I would never have kids. In addition to the possibility of them inheriting my deformity, I also believe that if you are not a happy person with positive things to offer, then you should not re-produce. I believe in eugenics but it's upon individuals to make that choice and it often seems that the people who absolutely shouldn't re-produce are the most fertile. Modern society allows for this devolution.

Growing old and vulnerable is scary, whether or not you have kids. Even a spouse can turn into a burden. At my lowest point, I couldn't muster the courage to take that walk into the woods. I eventually compromised and decided that would be my retirement plan. You can't count on children to take care of you. You could have 5 kids but they will have families of their own and when taking care of you becomes difficult, they will place you in a "nice" retirement home. And then at your most vulnerable, you are left to the mercy of random minimum wage workers. Have you read some of those stories? No, thanks. I gotta get out of here before ending up in that position.

 

[Sand]

Parenthood is the most important responsibility in the world. It is also a huge sacrifice. But when done right it is also a blessing. Your children are the embodiment of hope for a better world.

There is a Harvard study out there - they followed folks for 80 years (yes, 80) to answer the question - "what makes humans happy?" And it turns out to be pretty simple. Human thrive off relationships. What makes humans happy are deep, fulfilling relationships. They make happiness.

So how to acquire and keep these deep, fulfilling relationships? Easy - marry one and make a couple/few. Score 1 for the traditional family structure.

An 85-year Harvard study found the No. 1 thing that makes us happy in life: It helps us 'live longer'

In 1938, Harvard researchers embarked on a decades-long study to find out: What is the secret to a happy life? Contrary to what think, it's not career achievement, money, exercise, or a healthy diet.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Zow]

I acknowledge I probably shouldn't have used the "wat" but I was flabbergasted by your post.

Woz, probably after you demand a link twice and then use "wat" in response to my response, you're (to me) acting like the bad actors in the PSF, and therefore just another internet idiot I could do without. That's when you get a hostile response like I gave.

Allow me to apologize for tone and language. It would have been better off had I not gone off.

I appreciate the apology and I'm happy to squash this. I do want to say, though, that I didn't "demand" anything and was polite in my request. I also believe my request was both genuine and meaningful given what you posit the study or studies say (to the extent that, as somebody who works in family law, I wanted to read it) and, with all due respect, you didn't provide enough information to even look on a scholarly article database. In other words, I wasn't challenging you nor was I trying to make the issue at all political but I was curious to read what you were loosely citing.

You are correct though that I should not have just given you a "wat" but, instead, probably explained what I'm explaining now.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Here's my 2.5 drink take, for the it's worth....

Being an active, involved parent is the single most fulfilling thing a human being can do, IMHO, but only if you are 100% all-in on being the best parent that you can possibly humanly be. IMO, the whole ideal of being a parent is to raise human beings that are better than yourself. Impart in them all of your strengths, and teach them lessons about all your weaknesses and how to hopefully avoid them.

So as to the OP's point, IDK, if you're not willing to commit to that mission, you probably made the right choice. It takes a ton of sacrifice. And I think that's the downfall for a lot of people. Putting self over the mission of raising better human beings than yourself. Not saying that's right or wrong, but I think that's the determining factor. Like and subscribe for more hot takes.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

My daughter was born when I was 26. She was unplanned with my girlfriend at the time. She was due in January 2005 and One of the greatest things she did was come out during the bye week of the eagles Super Bowl. It created some difficulties in my life (including marrying and then divorcing her mom) but also gave me a depth of feeling and insight into the human condition that I could not have had otherwise. So I am grateful for the latter, but I am still not sure whether it was really worth it on balance. Though it is ultimately such a nebulous thing that it is hard to really talk about in an objective way. It is a difference in kind, not quantity. Once, a friend of mine of college asked whether having kids was worth it. This was before she had kids and when my daughter was maybe 6. I said I didn’t know how to answer that because it was almost like asking whether it is worth it have my left arm. I’m still not sure what my answer would be. She is 18 now and I don’t really have much desire to have another child. But I can also acknowledge that there are experiences that I have had that I certainly never could have otherwise and have had a positive effect on me.

Anyway, when a man sits alone and drinks, he says things…

 

[Zow]

My daughter was born when I was 26. She was unplanned with my girlfriend at the time. She was due in January 2005 and One of the greatest things she did was come out during the bye week of the eagles Super Bowl. It created some difficulties in my life (including marrying and then divorcing her mom) but also gave me a depth of feeling and insight into the human condition that I could not have had otherwise. So I am grateful for the latter, but I am still not sure whether it was really worth it on balance. Though it is ultimately such a nebulous thing that it is hard to really talk about in an objective way. It is a difference in kind, not quantity. Once, a friend of mine of college asked whether having kids was worth it. This was before she had kids and when my daughter was maybe 6. I said I didn’t know how to answer that because it was almost like asking whether it is worth it have my left arm. I’m still not sure what my answer would be. She is 18 now and I don’t really have much desire to have another child. By T I can also acknowledge that there are experiences that I have had that I certainly never could have otherwise and have had a positive effect on me.

Anyway, when a man sits alone and drinks, he says things…

By "it" you mean being an Eagles fan?

 

[NewlyRetired]

I am some one who is caught in between worlds.

My parents were wonderfully independent for the longest time, but with both in their 90's now, and my dad with ever growing dementia they need a lot of time and care that my brother and I are happy to provide.

But I am also a parent of an adult single child who has some issues that will cause her to remain in our care for the rest of our lives. So not only will I be caring for my parents until they pass, I will be caring for my daughter until I no longer am able to.

I try not to think too hard about it but in the back of my mind I realize that if I live as long as my dad I am very likely to get dementia as well and then I have no idea what is going to happen.....I figure I have 30 years or so to figure this out. My daughter progresses at a snails pace but there may be a chance that in 30 years she will become more capable.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

My daughter was born when I was 26. She was unplanned with my girlfriend at the time. She was due in January 2005 and One of the greatest things she did was come out during the bye week of the eagles Super Bowl. It created some difficulties in my life (including marrying and then divorcing her mom) but also gave me a depth of feeling and insight into the human condition that I could not have had otherwise. So I am grateful for the latter, but I am still not sure whether it was really worth it on balance. Though it is ultimately such a nebulous thing that it is hard to really talk about in an objective way. It is a difference in kind, not quantity. Once, a friend of mine of college asked whether having kids was worth it. This was before she had kids and when my daughter was maybe 6. I said I didn’t know how to answer that because it was almost like asking whether it is worth it have my left arm. I’m still not sure what my answer would be. She is 18 now and I don’t really have much desire to have another child. By T I can also acknowledge that there are experiences that I have had that I certainly never could have otherwise and have had a positive effect on me.

Anyway, when a man sits alone and drinks, he says things…

By "it" you mean being an Eagles fan?

I did not.

But it didn’t help.

 

[BigJim®]

I never longed for kids (or marriage for that matter) in my 20’s. If I’m being honest, the two I had in my 30’s were to keep the mrs. happy. Having kids changed me though. Not that it turned me into super dad… I’m not the scout master/kids coaching guy. Just too selfish with my time. I have to give the mrs. 80% credit for the rearing/work during younger years.

But in a big picture, ‘what is the meaning of life?’ I’d struggled with in a reckless (but fun) youth, being a parent answered that question, for me. It gave me something other than myself to motivate my life decisions, doing well at work, saving, planning vacations, etc. I still find young kids annoying, but I’ve come to relish sharing time with my sons as they’ve become young men - going golfing, fishing, watching sports. I find myself now on the opposite side of the spectrum - dreading becoming an empty nester.

 

[Jayrod]

Great conversation in here. Some thoughts:

• Rock's overall point is right, bad-fatherism is a root cause of a TON of our problems in society. Cycles of poverty and abuse are perpetuated by boys who impregnate women instead of men who raise their children creating a large % of criminals and drug addicts.
• End of life care is tough in that even if you have the money, you need someone to help you deal with things when your mind goes in the few years before you die. 7/8 of our grandparents (wife and I) ended up in nursing facilities with their kids helping them along while there. 2 are still going in their mid-90's (both my grandmothers). People on their own once dementia hits have a life expectancy of like less than a year because they have no advocate.
• Having kids is one of the greatest joys of my life and even if they run off in adulthood and rarely look back, I'll be thankful. I will be calling them though while I enjoy the extra time with my wife.

ETA - my kids are both teenagers and I've grounded my son from his phone for not doing what we've asked during the day for the 3rd day in a row. It isn't all rainbows and sunshine is my point, but still totally worth it. Love my kids and our relationships.

 

[Judge Smails]

Didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

No, feel free to speak freely.

Anybody here in family law? Tell me about what the courts and experts have begun to realize and practice.

Oof, STEADY just did.

About 10 years ago my wife’s dad convinced my wife to co-sign on his house.

He’s left everyone he’s married with kids to care for

Now he’s left his latest wife home alone while he attends college across the country, sending out go fund me.

Here's the sad truth:

You can pretty much totally ignore your offspring and they'll still feel a sense of fidelity to you. In study after study, case after case, this is so. Neglectful households. Abusive households. The pull towards our biological parents is so strong that it trumps even the loving care of a benevolent stepparent. I don't think a genial guy that visits every two months is going to run off his offspring in any way. Absence can make the heart grow fonder and often does when it comes to fathers. As a matter of fact, studies have shown that the more time a father spends with his child past a certain limit, the less well-off emotionally and spiritually that child is likely to be.

The pull of your biologocal parents is strong. Unless your son marries a controlling daughter in law who forces him to choose (it’s on him for. not having a backbone) and breaks up the family. I wish the biological pull was stronger. Kids are great though. Still blessed to have 3 kids. Wouldn’t change it. Could my retirement funds be higher if no kids? Absolutely. But so what. I don’t need to buy endless stuff. And the experiences are much better with kids.

 

[BassNBrew]

My daughter was born when I was 26. She was unplanned with my girlfriend at the time. She was due in January 2005 and One of the greatest things she did was come out during the bye week of the eagles Super Bowl. It created some difficulties in my life (including marrying and then divorcing her mom) but also gave me a depth of feeling and insight into the human condition that I could not have had otherwise. So I am grateful for the latter, but I am still not sure whether it was really worth it on balance. Though it is ultimately such a nebulous thing that it is hard to really talk about in an objective way. It is a difference in kind, not quantity. Once, a friend of mine of college asked whether having kids was worth it. This was before she had kids and when my daughter was maybe 6. I said I didn’t know how to answer that because it was almost like asking whether it is worth it have my left arm. I’m still not sure what my answer would be. She is 18 now and I don’t really have much desire to have another child. But I can also acknowledge that there are experiences that I have had that I certainly never could have otherwise and have had a positive effect on me.

Anyway, when a man sits alone and drinks, he says things…

Yeah, but you're still an Eagles fan.

My daughter was born when I was 26. She was unplanned with my girlfriend at the time. She was due in January 2005 and One of the greatest things she did was come out during the bye week of the eagles Super Bowl. It created some difficulties in my life (including marrying and then divorcing her mom) but also gave me a depth of feeling and insight into the human condition that I could not have had otherwise. So I am grateful for the latter, but I am still not sure whether it was really worth it on balance. Though it is ultimately such a nebulous thing that it is hard to really talk about in an objective way. It is a difference in kind, not quantity. Once, a friend of mine of college asked whether having kids was worth it. This was before she had kids and when my daughter was maybe 6. I said I didn’t know how to answer that because it was almost like asking whether it is worth it have my left arm. I’m still not sure what my answer would be. She is 18 now and I don’t really have much desire to have another child. By T I can also acknowledge that there are experiences that I have had that I certainly never could have otherwise and have had a positive effect on me.

Anyway, when a man sits alone and drinks, he says things…

By "it" you mean being an Eagles fan?

Beat me to it.

I am some one who is caught in between worlds.

My parents were wonderfully independent for the longest time, but with both in their 90's now, and my dad with ever growing dementia they need a lot og time and care that my brother and I are happy to provide.

But I am also a parent of an adult single child who has some issues that will cause her to remain in our care for the rest of our lives. So not only will I be caring for my parents until they pass, I will be caring for my daughter until I no longer am able to.

I try not to think too hard about it but in the back of my mind I realize that if I live as long as my dad I am very likely to get dementia as well and then I have no idea what is going to happen.....I figure I have 30 years or so to figure this out. My daughter progresses at a snails pace but there may be a chance that in 30 years she will become more capable.

Bless you. Hopefully the snail pace accelerates during your lifetime. Regarding dementia, terrible card but there's a lot of research coming up showing lifestyle choices reducing the likelihood of that outcome.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

It would have been better off had I not gone off.

Link?

Sure, why not?

 

[otb_lifer]

Could my retirement funds be higher if no kids? Absolutely. But so what. I don’t need to buy endless stuff. And the experiences are much better with kids.

Didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

No, feel free to speak freely.

Anybody here in family law? Tell me about what the courts and experts have begun to realize and practice.

Oof, STEADY just did.

About 10 years ago my wife’s dad convinced my wife to co-sign on his house.

He’s left everyone he’s married with kids to care for

Now he’s left his latest wife home alone while he attends college across the country, sending out go fund me.

Here's the sad truth:

You can pretty much totally ignore your offspring and they'll still feel a sense of fidelity to you. In study after study, case after case, this is so. Neglectful households. Abusive households. The pull towards our biological parents is so strong that it trumps even the loving care of a benevolent stepparent. I don't think a genial guy that visits every two months is going to run off his offspring in any way. Absence can make the heart grow fonder and often does when it comes to fathers. As a matter of fact, studies have shown that the more time a father spends with his child past a certain limit, the less well-off emotionally and spiritually that child is likely to be.

Could my retirement funds be higher if no kids? Absolutely. But so what. I don’t need to buy endless stuff. And the experiences are much better with kids.

earlier in this thread i had alluded to needing to be a ton less selfish before i would even consider a family - about not wanting to visit my ills and chicanery on innocent humans who deserved no part of that bullchit.

i finally found that peace - and now enjoy a great partner, and terrific daughter ... but i still rear some nuggets occasionally, and it reaches back to the "ME! ME!! ME!!!" bent of persona.

the vacations, tuitions, lessons, Broadway shows, concerts, instruments, spa days, parties, other assorted goodies - those expenses are heavy ... not to mention i blew out the entire upstairs bedrooms to build her two studios - one with the mirrored wall and barre for her ballet/dancing, and the other for her music - including soundproofing. top of the line keys, mixing board, guitar, mics.

BIG hits on my savings/retirement - and, so f****** what, ya know? i'm supporting all her dreams and aspirations, as i promised her and mom i always would.

so, what's the tie in to your post? well ... yeah, i have my moments of selfishness, and i let it be known at times ...

had my eye on a '69 Road Runner - fully mint, decked and decadently doable at roughly 75k - our newer place has that ONE feature urban jungle dwellers cream for: private garage/parking. so, yeah, it were time to seriously consider the wheels ... but i couldn't justify it. just couldn't jump that hurdle with all that lies ahead for her (she starts sr yr in high school in 3 weeks).

when i get in a mood, i will slip out with " yeah, dad ain't gettin' no COTdamn Road Runner, not with all i do for you and mom" ... and that's effin' horrible. wanna kick my own a$$ after blurting it.

not like i'm constantly bemoaning the fact - it's only happened a coupla/few times, but i know even saying it once is dooshy enuff, and not indicative of the father i strive to be ... but that part of me still pokes out and acts the scumbag.

i'll tell her afterwards that there's no gun to my head, and that i do these things outta love and support ... that i'm just shootin' from the hip, not thinking things thru.

i started the family late, so i've sowed a TON of oats, including having my hotrods and boats and bikes ... time to refocus now, and dedicate to them.

doesn't mean i've packed it in, tho ... i still find a great deal of "me" time and monkey shines ... and that's the key - it helps me appreciate them even more than i already do.

Spoiler

but, damn, were that car sweeeeeeeet

 

[Sand]

I try not to think too hard about it but in the back of my mind I realize that if I live as long as my dad I am very likely to get dementia as well and then I have no idea what is going to happen.

Go pick up a copy of Outlive by Peter Attia. He goes through the research on prevention of dementia.

 

[foxco]

When people ask me how many kids I have I usually answer :

"Two... ...many."

There's usually a polite laugh cause everyone knows I'm kidding. They just know it.

 

[beer 30]

What a weird f'n thread. Guessing it gets shut down then summarily deleted before it hits page 4

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I am not that venal or selfish. I am in the process of being around for my parents' elder care, so it's constantly on my mind. There's no doubt that colors my thoughts. But there are also a multitude of old jokes and tons of folk wisdom regarding our end-of-care on this earth. I've seen it in the generations of my own family. As a teen, I watched my grandmother basically die on the couch. It was really sad, but my Mom was determined to care for her the best my Mom could. That said a lot about my mother and my grandmother, who was by most accounts (except for my Mom's) a horrible alcoholic and terrible parent. It said a lot about how I was raised regarding the importance of family and what it all means for the end of life.

In fact, I'm surprised people are so callous as to talk about going to die in the woods and **** like that. There is a serious lack of dignity and respect for the elderly in our society, and it is embodied in some of the responses I'm reading. It's never, ever why I would think of having kids, but to be so callous is just a sign of a malformed mind that needs some existential and spiritual succor.

You may be correct here on the merits, but respectfully I think the severity of your judgement is a little too much. A lot of us are in a transition phase right now. On one level, that means looking backwards and second-guessing some of the choices we made much earlier in our lives. My impression is that you're kind of doing that in this thread. Not looking back with bitter regret or anything, but just wondering how life might have been different if you gone down the parenting route. I do that all the time. Quite a few of my colleagues are childless, and I often wonder what my life would have been like if I had made that decision. Realistically, I know exactly what my life would be like right now -- I'd be sitting here wondering what it would have been like if I had had kids. Some of us are just naturally imaginative and we can't stop ourselves from playing "what if?" And that's fine of course as long as its in moderation and doesn't veer off into moroseness.

On a similar note, you and I are only a couple of years apart. Our best guess is that we probably have about 30 years left. From a glass-half-full perspective, that's a shockingly long time actually. 30 years ago I had just leveled up and gained the ability to buy alcohol without getting arrested. That feels like an eternity ago, and I should have about that much time left in front of me. On other hand, we also know that forecast can change on a dime each time we go to a doctor or have blood drawn. But the big problem is that we intuitively know that the next 30 years -- if we get them -- won't be as pleasant as the last 30 years. I don't have any aches and pains or anything like that, but my marathoning days are definitely behind me, and I can see the inevitable trajectory of my physical body unfurled in front of me. I've never thought of myself as an athlete or cared that much about "looking manly," so if I notice this sort of thing and feel a little existential dread about it, I'm 100% positive that other guys feel that too. Some of the stuff about wandering off into the woods should probably be read as a transitory emotional response to moving toward the end of midlife, not quite so literally.

 

[massraider]

What a weird f'n thread. Guessing it gets shut down then summarily deleted before it hits page 4

That would be a shame. Some heartfelt post from some people on here.

I also would like to find out who else has a malformed mind.

 

[Ilov80s]

I will say, if I hadn't become a teacher and had chosen not to have kids, it probably would have been much more difficult for me. Seeing kids 180 days of the year (albeit always the teenage variety) keeps me feeling young, connected to the energy young people have and gives me something to nurture, develop, etc. It also reminds me of all the reasons having kids is a PITA. It's so nice to come home and have a kid free environment. I am without a doubt a better teacher for not having kids. I am always happy to see them at school because I get to recharge in the evening. If I had to come home to a couple kids who needed help with homework, were fighting, being rude, etc. I don't know if I would have the patience for the kids in school. I really don't know how teachers with kids do it, your whole life just becomes consumed by kids. I don't know if I could do that.

Also, I worry about how psycho I would be as a parent. I already get attached to people very easily, connect with them quickly and am very empathetic/sympathetic. Which again makes me a good teacher because I actually listen to the kids, want to help, make sure they feel seen, etc. However, I can't imagine the kind of agita I would go through if I had a couple of my own. Good lord.

 

[otb_lifer]

I will say, if I hadn't become a teacher and had chosen not to have kids, it probably would have been much more difficult for me. Seeing kids 180 days of the year (albeit always the teenage variety) keeps me feeling young, connected to the energy young people have and gives me something to nurture, develop, etc. It also reminds me of all the reasons having kids is a PITA. It's so nice to come home and have a kid free environment. I am without a doubt a better teacher for not having kids. I am always happy to see them at school because I get to recharge in the evening. If I had to come home to a couple kids who needed help with homework, were fighting, being rude, etc. I don't know if I would have the patience for the kids in school. I really don't know how teachers with kids do it, your whole life just becomes consumed my kids. I don't know if I could do that.

Also, I worry about how psycho I would be as a parent. I already get attached to people very easily, connect with them quickly and am very empathetic/sympathetic. Which again makes me a good teacher because I actually listen to the kids, want to help, make sure they feel seen, etc. However, I can't imagine the kind of agita I would go through if I had a couple of my own. Good lord.

i hear ya on all this, but i think you'd surprise yourself at just how much you'd have left in the tank for your own.

my gf are an ABA specialist, and an incredible one at that ... 10 hours a day amidst kids who are so demanding and challenging and in need of constant support/stimulation/guidance - and she immerses herself in their worlds for hours on end, giving more love and compassion than they receive at home, of that i am quite sure.

yet, she has such an incredible bond with our daughter - she spares no free time, and fills up the hours she does have with activities and support and the greatest parental love i've ever seen. her battery never seems "low", and, if it are, she sure as hell never shows it.

 

[Ilov80s]

I will say, if I hadn't become a teacher and had chosen not to have kids, it probably would have been much more difficult for me. Seeing kids 180 days of the year (albeit always the teenage variety) keeps me feeling young, connected to the energy young people have and gives me something to nurture, develop, etc. It also reminds me of all the reasons having kids is a PITA. It's so nice to come home and have a kid free environment. I am without a doubt a better teacher for not having kids. I am always happy to see them at school because I get to recharge in the evening. If I had to come home to a couple kids who needed help with homework, were fighting, being rude, etc. I don't know if I would have the patience for the kids in school. I really don't know how teachers with kids do it, your whole life just becomes consumed my kids. I don't know if I could do that.

Also, I worry about how psycho I would be as a parent. I already get attached to people very easily, connect with them quickly and am very empathetic/sympathetic. Which again makes me a good teacher because I actually listen to the kids, want to help, make sure they feel seen, etc. However, I can't imagine the kind of agita I would go through if I had a couple of my own. Good lord.

i hear ya on all this, but i think you'd surprise yourself at just how much you'd have left in the tank for your own.

my gf is an ABA specialist, and an incredible one at that ... 10 hours a day amidst kids who are so demanding and challenging and in need of constant support/stimulation/guidance - and she immerses herself in their worlds for hours on end, giving more love and compassion than they receive at home, of that i am quite sure.

yet, she has such an incredible bond with our daughter - she spares no free time, and fills up the hours she does have with activities and support and the greatest parental love i've ever seen. her battery never seems "low", and, if it is, she sure as hell never shows it.

You are probably right. Though easy for me to say now when it's August 11th, I might not agree so easily on November 11th.

 

[otb_lifer]

I will say, if I hadn't become a teacher and had chosen not to have kids, it probably would have been much more difficult for me. Seeing kids 180 days of the year (albeit always the teenage variety) keeps me feeling young, connected to the energy young people have and gives me something to nurture, develop, etc. It also reminds me of all the reasons having kids is a PITA. It's so nice to come home and have a kid free environment. I am without a doubt a better teacher for not having kids. I am always happy to see them at school because I get to recharge in the evening. If I had to come home to a couple kids who needed help with homework, were fighting, being rude, etc. I don't know if I would have the patience for the kids in school. I really don't know how teachers with kids do it, your whole life just becomes consumed my kids. I don't know if I could do that.

Also, I worry about how psycho I would be as a parent. I already get attached to people very easily, connect with them quickly and am very empathetic/sympathetic. Which again makes me a good teacher because I actually listen to the kids, want to help, make sure they feel seen, etc. However, I can't imagine the kind of agita I would go through if I had a couple of my own. Good lord.

i hear ya on all this, but i think you'd surprise yourself at just how much you'd have left in the tank for your own.

my gf is an ABA specialist, and an incredible one at that ... 10 hours a day amidst kids who are so demanding and challenging and in need of constant support/stimulation/guidance - and she immerses herself in their worlds for hours on end, giving more love and compassion than they receive at home, of that i am quite sure.

yet, she has such an incredible bond with our daughter - she spares no free time, and fills up the hours she does have with activities and support and the greatest parental love i've ever seen. her battery never seems "low", and, if it is, she sure as hell never shows it.

You are probably right. Though easy for me to say now when it's August 11th, I might not agree so easily on November 11th.

i hear that

the gf never gets a reprieve, tho ... matter of fact, summer are her busiest season - but she's at it 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year.

 

[Ilov80s]

I will say, if I hadn't become a teacher and had chosen not to have kids, it probably would have been much more difficult for me. Seeing kids 180 days of the year (albeit always the teenage variety) keeps me feeling young, connected to the energy young people have and gives me something to nurture, develop, etc. It also reminds me of all the reasons having kids is a PITA. It's so nice to come home and have a kid free environment. I am without a doubt a better teacher for not having kids. I am always happy to see them at school because I get to recharge in the evening. If I had to come home to a couple kids who needed help with homework, were fighting, being rude, etc. I don't know if I would have the patience for the kids in school. I really don't know how teachers with kids do it, your whole life just becomes consumed my kids. I don't know if I could do that.

Also, I worry about how psycho I would be as a parent. I already get attached to people very easily, connect with them quickly and am very empathetic/sympathetic. Which again makes me a good teacher because I actually listen to the kids, want to help, make sure they feel seen, etc. However, I can't imagine the kind of agita I would go through if I had a couple of my own. Good lord.

i hear ya on all this, but i think you'd surprise yourself at just how much you'd have left in the tank for your own.

my gf is an ABA specialist, and an incredible one at that ... 10 hours a day amidst kids who are so demanding and challenging and in need of constant support/stimulation/guidance - and she immerses herself in their worlds for hours on end, giving more love and compassion than they receive at home, of that i am quite sure.

yet, she has such an incredible bond with our daughter - she spares no free time, and fills up the hours she does have with activities and support and the greatest parental love i've ever seen. her battery never seems "low", and, if it is, she sure as hell never shows it.

You are probably right. Though easy for me to say now when it's August 11th, I might not agree so easily on November 11th.

i hear that

the gf never gets a reprieve, tho ... matter of fact, summer are her busiest season - but she's at it 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year.

She's a good person. That ABA Therapy is no joke and obviously they are working with some of the most difficult cases possible. I've had a few students who have gotten in home ABA and my gosh did they need a world of help. While often the parents helped create the problem, I almost always feel bad for them. Nobody is prepared to have a child with extreme social, emotional, physical or mental needs. It's just not possible and they usually are trying their best, the situation just gets away from them. Then I feel guilty because I'm not able to help either. So god bless your GF, glad people like her exist as well.

Even in the summer, I can't totally walk away. I taught summer school which is basically part time, very easy. And I am mentoring this other kid so I've managed to stay tapped in a little. I kind of get lost without at least some of that. Now that I am in the 2nd half of my teaching career, I am starting to look at options for after retirement. I think I would like to retire right at 30 years (even though I would only be 55) and do something else (still kid focused). My recent experiences have me considering teen drug and alcohol counseling, child therapist, some kind of foster care thing, idk. But probably about time to start actually working on that next phase. Not sure I am cut out for the ABA though.

 

[rockaction]

What a weird f'n thread. Guessing it gets shut down then summarily deleted before it hits page 4

I'll bet if people remain cool (Me and Woz and my outburst notwithstanding) it might just stay because it turned into something that is important to a lot of people at this age. We're at the age where we do indeed look back and have retroactive parenting or non-parenting thoughts. We're also, all of us, going to die soon and that's something very large and causes a range of emotions, from the retrospective to the futuristic.

You may be correct here on the merits, but respectfully I think the severity of your judgement is a little too much.

I wasn't trying to come across as judgmental. It was more surprised and I thought it was something that might need reconsidering. If I came across as judging, then I failed in the task of the tone I'm trying to convey. That's on me. Sorry about that.

I can see the inevitable trajectory of my physical body unfurled in front of me. I've never thought of myself as an athlete or cared that much about "looking manly," so if I notice this sort of thing and feel a little existential dread about it, I'm 100% positive that other guys feel that too. Some of the stuff about wandering off into the woods should probably be read as a transitory emotional response to moving toward the end of midlife, not quite so literally.

Love this part of the post. Thanks for the thought. Death is a very difficult thing, and infirmity is second on the list of those things almost too large to contemplate. I don't blame a lot of people for having the response that they want to go before it happens. I've had similar thoughts.

The only caveat I have is that I thought it was more of a "you go die in the woods when that happens" response, which I'm basing on the original post and responses thereto. I do think that given the history of the poster in the PSF, and the way it was framed, that it was indeed "why don't you go die in the woods," and not a metaphorical response based on the end of life and its impending problems. In fact, the poster followed it up with an anecdote about his previously aging family and said it colored the original post he made. I could be totally wrong about that, but that's how I took it. Perhaps I was being sensitive.

So I'm half and half on the whole judgy thing, let's say.

 

[Sand]

On a similar note, you and I are only a couple of years apart. Our best guess is that we probably have about 30 years left. From a glass-half-full perspective, that's a shockingly long time actually. 30 years ago I had just leveled up and gained the ability to buy alcohol without getting arrested. That feels like an eternity ago, and I should have about that much time left in front of me.

Funny, I look at that 30 years as an ephemeral blip that will be over before I know it. It's not even close to enough and time is accelerating as I get older.

 

[rockaction]

Um, this is very awkward, but your post here very much reminds me of the style of wikkidpissah :(

I was just thinking about this because he was mentioned in another thread.

If wikkid were alive, he might not have agreed with the premise of the thread nor the delivery, but he would have made fun of the thread starter in a not-so-subtle but funny and deep way, and he would have imparted some sort of otherworldly wisdom about fatherhood and non-fatherhood. I'm absolutely sure of it.

I know I would have loved to hear what he said about this thread. I do indeed miss him and his thoughts and non-prosaic prose. Irreplaceable on this board.

 

[Pip's Invitation]

Um, this is very awkward, but your post here very much reminds me of the style of wikkidpissah :(

I was just thinking about this because he was mentioned in another thread.

If wikkid were alive, he might not have agreed with the premise of the thread nor the delivery, but he would have made fun of the thread starter in a not-so-subtle but funny and deep way, and he would have imparted some sort of otherworldly wisdom about fatherhood and non-fatherhood. I'm absolutely sure of it.

I know I would have loved to hear what he said about this thread. I do indeed miss him and his thoughts and non-prosaic prose. Irreplaceable on this board.

He did the bolded a lot when he was with us, so I have no doubt he would have done so in this thread unless he was on one of his hiatuses (hiati?)