Iran Launches "Large Scale Attack" on Israel (?) (2 Viewers)

[Sparky Polastri]

Israeli Ambassador just responded to USA leaderships response to recent attacks. Dude. Was. Not. Happy. I agree. I say this with 3 combat ribbons. I feel it gives me some latitude. Who the hell do we think we are? It's mind boggling. They are at war, yet we continue to feed the press this idea that we have the correct path they should take. It's so arrogant. Imagine after 9/11, while we are responding, if Turkey is like, "Well, you need to cease fire and be respectful." It's laughable. All my opinion of course

I can't tell if this is serious or not.

The US has a vested interest in containing a volatile situation. We have some leverage over Israel given the amount of aid, financial and militarily, that we provide. Leadership requires that someone lead.

Israel are at war by their own choice - there have been several off-ramps to deescalate. Israel has chosen to push forward - as is their prerogative. We still need to bring pressure to bear on all sides - and we apply pressure to Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah by our continued support of Israel - to bring this matter to a conclusion that everyone can live with.

Sell them all the equipment they want to buy. Im fine with that. Funding it isnt ok when they are initiating.

 

[Sand]

Israeli Ambassador just responded to USA leaderships response to recent attacks. Dude. Was. Not. Happy. I agree. I say this with 3 combat ribbons. I feel it gives me some latitude. Who the hell do we think we are? It's mind boggling. They are at war, yet we continue to feed the press this idea that we have the correct path they should take. It's so arrogant. Imagine after 9/11, while we are responding, if Turkey is like, "Well, you need to cease fire and be respectful." It's laughable. All my opinion of course

I can't tell if this is serious or not.

The US has a vested interest in containing a volatile situation. We have some leverage over Israel given the amount of aid, financial and militarily, that we provide. Leadership requires that someone lead.

Israel are at war by their own choice - there have been several off-ramps to deescalate. Israel has chosen to push forward - as is their prerogative. We still need to bring pressure to bear on all sides - and we apply pressure to Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah by our continued support of Israel - to bring this matter to a conclusion that everyone can live with.

Sell them all the equipment they want to buy. Im fine with that. Funding it isnt ok when they are initiating.

They've been reacting since Oct 7th.

Damn, has it already been a year since the rape/murder/kidnapping surprise rampage? Doesn't seem that long.

 

[Jayrod]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

 

[Redwes25]

Israeli Ambassador just responded to USA leaderships response to recent attacks. Dude. Was. Not. Happy. I agree. I say this with 3 combat ribbons. I feel it gives me some latitude. Who the hell do we think we are? It's mind boggling. They are at war, yet we continue to feed the press this idea that we have the correct path they should take. It's so arrogant. Imagine after 9/11, while we are responding, if Turkey is like, "Well, you need to cease fire and be respectful." It's laughable. All my opinion of course

We are actually supplying them weapons and use our forces to defend Israel from the strikes. Feels like if they they want that kinda of support then we have a say in their response. They go it alone it is a different story.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

I'm not sure what going into Lebanon has to do with Hamas and Gaza, or are you saying that what really needs to happen is it's not over until they fight with Iran officially?

I agree that it seems like they are going to "finish it as they see fit". It is not that I think we have clean enough hands or that we have moral superiority. We are the supplier of the weapons they are using in these strikes. They know it, we know it, and the world knows it. IMO that is what gives us the right to tell them what to do or if we truly don't like what they are doing it gives us the right to stop giving them the means to do so.

 

[Sand]

As long as Israel doesn’t hit the oil I think things will be ok. There are gas line videos on Twitter from Tehran so if they are real they think that might happen

You were saying?

Israel ‘preparing to blast Iran’s oil fields in revenge over missile blitz'

ISRAEL is planning to strike Iran’s oil fields in response to Tehran’s ballistic missile attack amid boiling tensions between the two archenemies. Israeli PM Netanyahu vowed to retaliat…

www.the-sun.com

(No idea if this is what actually happens but it seems logical).

 

[parasaurolophus]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

There are still American hostages.

 

[TennesseeJed]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

 

[bcat01]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

If Israel would quit and go home they would just be waiting for the next attack. It seems like they are finally going to finish this.

 

[The Z Machine]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

What would a Hamas decisive defeat look like?

 

[Max Power]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

If Israel would quit and go home they would just be waiting for the next attack. It seems like they are finally going to finish this.

If I had confidence they could "finish this" on their own, I'd be all for it. The reality is that Iran will continue to strike back and then the US is forced to decide if their aid to Israel is still in defense. Its a rock and hard place situation.

 

[Dezbelief]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

What would a Hamas decisive defeat look like?

A Ukrainian city after Russia captures it following weeks of glide bombs attacks.

 

[TennesseeJed]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

If Israel would quit and go home they would just be waiting for the next attack. It seems like they are finally going to finish this.

I don't think you can "finish this" militarily - unless you mean a true genocide where they simply wipe the Palestinian people off the face of the earth.

Right now, I think Israel has done more harm for its long-term security than good.

 

[Jayrod]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

I'm not sure what going into Lebanon has to do with Hamas and Gaza, or are you saying that what really needs to happen is it's not over until they fight with Iran officially?

I agree that it seems like they are going to "finish it as they see fit". It is not that I think we have clean enough hands or that we have moral superiority. We are the supplier of the weapons they are using in these strikes. They know it, we know it, and the world knows it. IMO that is what gives us the right to tell them what to do or if we truly don't like what they are doing it gives us the right to stop giving them the means to do so.

Did I say Lebanon? Is this discussion limited to that? I didn't reply to anyone specifically, so save your condescension.

 

[Jayrod]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

Did I say that? Are you being intellectually honest with that question or just being a jerk?

Think about it.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

I'm not sure what going into Lebanon has to do with Hamas and Gaza, or are you saying that what really needs to happen is it's not over until they fight with Iran officially?

I agree that it seems like they are going to "finish it as they see fit". It is not that I think we have clean enough hands or that we have moral superiority. We are the supplier of the weapons they are using in these strikes. They know it, we know it, and the world knows it. IMO that is what gives us the right to tell them what to do or if we truly don't like what they are doing it gives us the right to stop giving them the means to do so.

Did I say Lebanon? Is this discussion limited to that? I didn't reply to anyone specifically, so save your condescension.

Lol, ok guy. Sorry for replying, i guess.

Yes, i was more replying in a way that the thread was leaning with the escalation with Hezbolah and Iran. Its moved quite a way past just Hamas/Gaza, and i was replying with that in mind, fwiw.

 

[TennesseeJed]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

Did I say that? Are you being intellectually honest with that question or just being a jerk?

Think about it.

I've thought about it.

Israel has passed on several opportunities to get the hostages. I don't think it's unreasonable to think Israel is not waging war because of the hostages. So, when you suggest the war is not over because there are still hostages - I think you are implicitly saying, that is the reason for war - all evidence to the contrary.

So, to answer your question - I am being intellectually honest with my observations.

 

[The Z Machine]

It certainly seems like the hostages are a good excuse for attacking enemies and weakening them.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

What would a Hamas decisive defeat look like?

That's up to Hamas, I suppose. In principle, the war in Gaza could end tomorrow. If it ends with Gaza looking like those pictures of bombed-out Berlin, that's fine too. I don't really care and I'll leave it to Israel's best judgement. They're the ones with skin in the game, not me.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

 

[Jayrod]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

Did I say that? Are you being intellectually honest with that question or just being a jerk?

Think about it.

I've thought about it.

Israel has passed on several opportunities to get the hostages. I don't think it's unreasonable to think Israel is not waging war because of the hostages. So, when you suggest the war is not over because there are still hostages - I think you are implicitly saying, that is the reason for war - all evidence to the contrary.

So, to answer your question - I am being intellectually honest with my observations.

No you aren't.

Those opportunities weren't simply "get the hostages back"; they all came at a price and a price that was deemed too high.

Also my explanation was two-fold and you conveniently ignored that and focused on only one aspect.

Again, you are being intellectually dishonest...either that or you don't read good.

 

[Jayrod]

It certainly seems like the hostages are a good excuse for attacking enemies and weakening them.

Seems like? Good excuse?

Sounds like you've got some insight into the minds of everyone in charge. Either that or baseless, wild, accusatory speculation.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

Did I say that? Are you being intellectually honest with that question or just being a jerk?

Think about it.

I've thought about it.

Israel has passed on several opportunities to get the hostages. I don't think it's unreasonable to think Israel is not waging war because of the hostages. So, when you suggest the war is not over because there are still hostages - I think you are implicitly saying, that is the reason for war - all evidence to the contrary.

So, to answer your question - I am being intellectually honest with my observations.

No you aren't.

Those opportunities weren't simply "get the hostages back"; they all came at a price and a price that was deemed too high.

Also my explanation was two-fold and you conveniently ignored that and focused on only one aspect.

Again, you are being intellectually dishonest...either that or you don't read good.

If i am understanding your post correctly, you believe that this war will be over if the hostages are addressed and accounted for and Hamas is cleared from Gaza?

 

[KarmaPolice]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

Where we seem to differ is I believe what they want even more than Oct 6th 2023 is to demolish Gaza, take over the West Bank, and destroy Iran and their proxies.

I wouldn’t have as many issues with their actions, us funding it, and us being directly being involved if i believed their goal was just getting back to Oct 7th.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

Where we seem to differ is I believe what they want even more than Oct 6th 2023 is to demolish Gaza, take over the West Bank, and destroy Iran and their proxies.

I wouldn’t have as many issues with their actions, us funding it, and us being directly being involved if i believed their goal was just getting back to Oct 7th.

Okay, well, your belief is completely unfalsifiable, so we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

Where we seem to differ is I believe what they want even more than Oct 6th 2023 is to demolish Gaza, take over the West Bank, and destroy Iran and their proxies.

I wouldn’t have as many issues with their actions, us funding it, and us being directly being involved if i believed their goal was just getting back to Oct 7th.

Okay, well, your belief is completely unfalsifiable, so we'll just agree to disagree.

I base it on their actions and what the people making the decisions say. Correct, neither of us can prove what is truly in their heads and heart, but there is evidence for my opinion.

Of course we can just agree to disagree, this is just currently a topic where i feel like i am reading or seeing things way differently from people and i struggle to understand it. In the end it is probably a basic departure in base worldview as to what is a justified or appropriate reaction to something like 10/6.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

Where we seem to differ is I believe what they want even more than Oct 6th 2023 is to demolish Gaza, take over the West Bank, and destroy Iran and their proxies.

I wouldn’t have as many issues with their actions, us funding it, and us being directly being involved if i believed their goal was just getting back to Oct 7th.

Okay, well, your belief is completely unfalsifiable, so we'll just agree to disagree.

I base it on their actions and what the people making the decisions say. Correct, neither of us can prove what is truly in their heads and heart, but there is evidence for my opinion.

Of course we can just agree to disagree, this is just currently a topic where i feel like i am reading or seeing things way differently from people and i struggle to understand it. In the end it is probably a basic departure in base worldview as to what is a justified or appropriate reaction to something like 10/6.

They would be justified in leveling Gaza. That's what we did to Germany and Japan when we decided that those governments had to go, and we were right. But that's not a particularly interesting issue. I'm not sure whether it's in Israel's actual material interest to level Gaza, and I'll trust them to sort that out on their own. I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

Where we seem to differ is I believe what they want even more than Oct 6th 2023 is to demolish Gaza, take over the West Bank, and destroy Iran and their proxies.

I wouldn’t have as many issues with their actions, us funding it, and us being directly being involved if i believed their goal was just getting back to Oct 7th.

Okay, well, your belief is completely unfalsifiable, so we'll just agree to disagree.

I base it on their actions and what the people making the decisions say. Correct, neither of us can prove what is truly in their heads and heart, but there is evidence for my opinion.

Of course we can just agree to disagree, this is just currently a topic where i feel like i am reading or seeing things way differently from people and i struggle to understand it. In the end it is probably a basic departure in base worldview as to what is a justified or appropriate reaction to something like 10/6.

They would be justified in leveling Gaza. That's what we did to Germany and Japan when we decided that those governments had to go, and we were right. But that's not a particularly interesting issue. I'm not sure whether it's in Israel's actual material interest to level Gaza, and I'll trust them to sort that out on their own. I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other.

Gotcha, and there lies the disagreement [the 1st two bolded] - thanks for the reply.

As far as the last bolded, that seems impossible. They cant do this on their own - we are right there taking on the consequences as they sort it out.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Nobody will agree on this. My opinion ... Israel shouldn't de-escalate. Now is the point of no return. Actually that was 1967, when we should have let them keep going. Let them go at it. Iran's control of the middle east has become enormous. So big Hamas invaded Israel. So big Hezbollah was planning to invade before pre-emptive strikes. Syria, Yemen, etc, etc. Attacking anyone they can. Many US citizens have no idea how bad Iran wants to eliminate everyone not them. Well, work for clandestine agencies and it's pretty easy to see the Iranian govt wants almost every person on this chat to die. Don't pretend they don't. It's not just Israel. It would be all non-Shia Muslims if Israel was gone. One country wants to destroy the US and everything it stands for. And that is not Israel. So you know who you should stand for ... the one that doesn't want you and your family to die. You know how you stop a 4000 year old war. Have one side win.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

I'm not sure what going into Lebanon has to do with Hamas and Gaza, or are you saying that what really needs to happen is it's not over until they fight with Iran officially?

I agree that it seems like they are going to "finish it as they see fit". It is not that I think we have clean enough hands or that we have moral superiority. We are the supplier of the weapons they are using in these strikes. They know it, we know it, and the world knows it. IMO that is what gives us the right to tell them what to do or if we truly don't like what they are doing it gives us the right to stop giving them the means to do so.

Did I say Lebanon? Is this discussion limited to that? I didn't reply to anyone specifically, so save your condescension.

Pot, meet kettle

 

[Navin Johnson]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

Where we seem to differ is I believe what they want even more than Oct 6th 2023 is to demolish Gaza, take over the West Bank, and destroy Iran and their proxies.

I wouldn’t have as many issues with their actions, us funding it, and us being directly being involved if i believed their goal was just getting back to Oct 7th.

Okay, well, your belief is completely unfalsifiable, so we'll just agree to disagree.

I base it on their actions and what the people making the decisions say. Correct, neither of us can prove what is truly in their heads and heart, but there is evidence for my opinion.

Of course we can just agree to disagree, this is just currently a topic where i feel like i am reading or seeing things way differently from people and i struggle to understand it. In the end it is probably a basic departure in base worldview as to what is a justified or appropriate reaction to something like 10/6.

They would be justified in leveling Gaza. That's what we did to Germany and Japan when we decided that those governments had to go, and we were right. But that's not a particularly interesting issue. I'm not sure whether it's in Israel's actual material interest to level Gaza, and I'll trust them to sort that out on their own. I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other.

we were just as guilty of war crimes as Israel is now

 

[Navin Johnson]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

Where we seem to differ is I believe what they want even more than Oct 6th 2023 is to demolish Gaza, take over the West Bank, and destroy Iran and their proxies.

I wouldn’t have as many issues with their actions, us funding it, and us being directly being involved if i believed their goal was just getting back to Oct 7th.

Okay, well, your belief is completely unfalsifiable, so we'll just agree to disagree.

I base it on their actions and what the people making the decisions say. Correct, neither of us can prove what is truly in their heads and heart, but there is evidence for my opinion.

Of course we can just agree to disagree, this is just currently a topic where i feel like i am reading or seeing things way differently from people and i struggle to understand it. In the end it is probably a basic departure in base worldview as to what is a justified or appropriate reaction to something like 10/6.

They would be justified in leveling Gaza. That's what we did to Germany and Japan when we decided that those governments had to go, and we were right. But that's not a particularly interesting issue. I'm not sure whether it's in Israel's actual material interest to level Gaza, and I'll trust them to sort that out on their own. I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other.

we were just as guilty of war crimes as Israel is now

So? We won.

Oh, good lord

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

Where we seem to differ is I believe what they want even more than Oct 6th 2023 is to demolish Gaza, take over the West Bank, and destroy Iran and their proxies.

I wouldn’t have as many issues with their actions, us funding it, and us being directly being involved if i believed their goal was just getting back to Oct 7th.

Okay, well, your belief is completely unfalsifiable, so we'll just agree to disagree.

I base it on their actions and what the people making the decisions say. Correct, neither of us can prove what is truly in their heads and heart, but there is evidence for my opinion.

Of course we can just agree to disagree, this is just currently a topic where i feel like i am reading or seeing things way differently from people and i struggle to understand it. In the end it is probably a basic departure in base worldview as to what is a justified or appropriate reaction to something like 10/6.

They would be justified in leveling Gaza. That's what we did to Germany and Japan when we decided that those governments had to go, and we were right. But that's not a particularly interesting issue. I'm not sure whether it's in Israel's actual material interest to level Gaza, and I'll trust them to sort that out on their own. I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other.

we were just as guilty of war crimes as Israel is now

So? We won.

Oh, good lord

I think defeating Nazism was more important than whatever it is that you parachuted in here to argue about. You disagree. We can agree to disagree.

 

[The Z Machine]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

Where we seem to differ is I believe what they want even more than Oct 6th 2023 is to demolish Gaza, take over the West Bank, and destroy Iran and their proxies.

I wouldn’t have as many issues with their actions, us funding it, and us being directly being involved if i believed their goal was just getting back to Oct 7th.

Okay, well, your belief is completely unfalsifiable, so we'll just agree to disagree.

I base it on their actions and what the people making the decisions say. Correct, neither of us can prove what is truly in their heads and heart, but there is evidence for my opinion.

Of course we can just agree to disagree, this is just currently a topic where i feel like i am reading or seeing things way differently from people and i struggle to understand it. In the end it is probably a basic departure in base worldview as to what is a justified or appropriate reaction to something like 10/6.

They would be justified in leveling Gaza. That's what we did to Germany and Japan when we decided that those governments had to go, and we were right. But that's not a particularly interesting issue. I'm not sure whether it's in Israel's actual material interest to level Gaza, and I'll trust them to sort that out on their own. I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other.

we were just as guilty of war crimes as Israel is now

So? We won.

Oh, good lord

I think defeating Nazism was more important than whatever it is that you parachuted in here to argue about. You disagree. We can agree to disagree.

Wait, I thought the Nazis and Japanese were the genocidal ones in that conflict?

 

[John Maddens Lunchbox]

Nobody will agree on this. My opinion ... Israel shouldn't de-escalate. Now is the point of no return. Actually that was 1967, when we should have let them keep going. Let them go at it. Iran's control of the middle east has become enormous. So big Hamas invaded Israel. So big Hezbollah was planning to invade before pre-emptive strikes. Syria, Yemen, etc, etc. Attacking anyone they can. Many US citizens have no idea how bad Iran wants to eliminate everyone not them. Well, work for clandestine agencies and it's pretty easy to see the Iranian govt wants almost every person on this chat to die. Don't pretend they don't. It's not just Israel. It would be all non-Shia Muslims if Israel was gone. One country wants to destroy the US and everything it stands for. And that is not Israel. So you know who you should stand for ... the one that doesn't want you and your family to die. You know how you stop a 4000 year old war. Have one side win.

No one side will win. Ever. Either both sides lose or one loses worse than the other.
Just loads of dead and injured bodies for 4000 more years to come is the result of this.
Eye for an eye or a 1000 eyes for one eye isn’t going to work.

The best solution, which will never happen, is to move Israel to Utah or something.
Then Sunny and shi’te can fight it out ad nauseum.
Isreal cant defeat Iran without direct US involvement.
Anyone want to get Saudi Arabia involved?

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

If Israel would quit and go home they would just be waiting for the next attack. It seems like they are finally going to finish this.

If thousands of years of "wars" in that area have told us anything its that it is never going to be over until they are all dead. Not accepting that reality is a fool's errand. Only hope is to keep containment. You "eliminate" Hamas and its next man up.

 

[tri-man 47]

Nobody will agree on this. My opinion ... Israel shouldn't de-escalate. Now is the point of no return. Actually that was 1967, when we should have let them keep going. Let them go at it. Iran's control of the middle east has become enormous. So big Hamas invaded Israel. So big Hezbollah was planning to invade before pre-emptive strikes. Syria, Yemen, etc, etc. Attacking anyone they can. Many US citizens have no idea how bad Iran wants to eliminate everyone not them. Well, work for clandestine agencies and it's pretty easy to see the Iranian govt wants almost every person on this chat to die. Don't pretend they don't. It's not just Israel. It would be all non-Shia Muslims if Israel was gone. One country wants to destroy the US and everything it stands for. And that is not Israel. So you know who you should stand for ... the one that doesn't want you and your family to die. You know how you stop a 4000 year old war. Have one side win.

No one side will win. Ever. Either both sides lose or one loses worse than the other.
Just loads of dead and injured bodies for 4000 more years to come is the result of this.
Eye for an eye or a 1000 eyes for one eye isn’t going to work.

The best solution, which will never happen, is to move Israel to Utah or something.
Then Sunny and shi’te can fight it out ad nauseum.
Isreal cant defeat Iran without direct US involvement.
Anyone want to get Saudi Arabia involved?

Apparently a number of possible sites were considered for a Jewish homeland early in the 20th century. This included the U.S. and other European countries. But as I have read ...no one really wanted them! Particularly in hindsight, that's both shocking and sad.

 

[The Z Machine]

There is no toll of Palestinian civilians too great to exchange for the complete elimination of Hamas

I stopped reading here. This is genocide talk.

 

[KarmaPolice]

There is no toll of Palestinian civilians too great to exchange for the complete elimination of Hamas

I stopped reading here. This is genocide talk.

Not sure I would whip out that word, but IMO:

1. there is no "elimination" of Hamas.
2. that is just one piece of the equation currently and it doesn't address Iran and it's other proxy armies (which goes back to #1)

I was just piggy backing your point and thought that would be easier on the eyes to reply to than para's.

 

[Sand]

Nobody will agree on this. My opinion ... Israel shouldn't de-escalate. Now is the point of no return. Actually that was 1967, when we should have let them keep going. Let them go at it. Iran's control of the middle east has become enormous. So big Hamas invaded Israel. So big Hezbollah was planning to invade before pre-emptive strikes. Syria, Yemen, etc, etc. Attacking anyone they can. Many US citizens have no idea how bad Iran wants to eliminate everyone not them. Well, work for clandestine agencies and it's pretty easy to see the Iranian govt wants almost every person on this chat to die. Don't pretend they don't. It's not just Israel. It would be all non-Shia Muslims if Israel was gone. One country wants to destroy the US and everything it stands for. And that is not Israel. So you know who you should stand for ... the one that doesn't want you and your family to die. You know how you stop a 4000 year old war. Have one side win.

No one side will win. Ever. Either both sides lose or one loses worse than the other.
Just loads of dead and injured bodies for 4000 more years to come is the result of this.
Eye for an eye or a 1000 eyes for one eye isn’t going to work.

The best solution, which will never happen, is to move Israel to Utah or something.
Then Sunny and shi’te can fight it out ad nauseum.
Isreal cant defeat Iran without direct US involvement.
Anyone want to get Saudi Arabia involved?

Apparently a number of possible sites were considered for a Jewish homeland early in the 20th century. This included the U.S. and other European countries. But as I have read ...no one really wanted them! Particularly in hindsight, that's both shocking and sad.

In all fairness the adherents of Islam decided to coopt Jerusalem as a holy site and plop the Al-Aqsa mosque right on top of the Temple of Solomon. This wasn't by accident.

That said I'd personally love to see Israel to relocate to the US. A population that is 0.2% of the world's population but has 22% of the Nobel Prize Winners? Yeah, we would be fools not to welcome that population. (BTW, Palestinians have 1 - Yasser Arafat.)

 

[parasaurolophus]

Not sure I would whip out that word, but IMO:

1. there is no "elimination" of Hamas.
2. that is just one piece of the equation currently and it doesn't address Iran and it's other proxy armies (which goes back to #1)

I was just piggy backing your point and thought that would be easier on the eyes to reply to than para's.

Of course there is. Their support will dwindle. Association with them will be a death sentence. They will be done.

And this time there is no trying to control the bear with wolves strategy at play. It seems they are going to see this through and kill the bear.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Not sure I would whip out that word, but IMO:

1. there is no "elimination" of Hamas.
2. that is just one piece of the equation currently and it doesn't address Iran and it's other proxy armies (which goes back to #1)

I was just piggy backing your point and thought that would be easier on the eyes to reply to than para's.

Of course there is. Their support will dwindle. Association with them will be a death sentence. They will be done.

And this time there is no trying to control the bear with wolves strategy at play. It seems they are going to see this through and kill the bear.

To me what it seems like is happening is they are dragging us into a wide regional war with them as they attempt to accomplish this goal. I am all for Hamas getting wiped out - we agree there and we agree on their level of evil. We don't agree about the "no matter the cost" part. It would be a much different conversation if we were talking about just Israel, but we aren't. We would also be closer in agreement if it was just Hamas and Gaza we were talking about, but we aren't. You post that it seems they are going to see this through and kill the bear. To me it seems like they are going to drag us into a war and hope that we can finish off Iran for them. IMO that would be very ungood for the region and our country. Not to mention we already are sending billions in supplies to Ukraine and Putin is yapping at us too. I think as of today WE are closer to a multi-front war than we are to seeing them kill the bear as you put it. I am very much not OK with that and believe that might be the cost we are talking about for Israel to take out every last member of Hamas.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

Where we seem to differ is I believe what they want even more than Oct 6th 2023 is to demolish Gaza, take over the West Bank, and destroy Iran and their proxies.

I wouldn’t have as many issues with their actions, us funding it, and us being directly being involved if i believed their goal was just getting back to Oct 7th.

Okay, well, your belief is completely unfalsifiable, so we'll just agree to disagree.

I base it on their actions and what the people making the decisions say. Correct, neither of us can prove what is truly in their heads and heart, but there is evidence for my opinion.

Of course we can just agree to disagree, this is just currently a topic where i feel like i am reading or seeing things way differently from people and i struggle to understand it. In the end it is probably a basic departure in base worldview as to what is a justified or appropriate reaction to something like 10/6.

They would be justified in leveling Gaza. That's what we did to Germany and Japan when we decided that those governments had to go, and we were right. But that's not a particularly interesting issue. I'm not sure whether it's in Israel's actual material interest to level Gaza, and I'll trust them to sort that out on their own. I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other.

we were just as guilty of war crimes as Israel is now

So? We won.

Oh, good lord

I think defeating Nazism was more important than whatever it is that you parachuted in here to argue about. You disagree. We can agree to disagree.

Did I argue that defeating Nazism was a bad thing? I must have missed that.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

Where we seem to differ is I believe what they want even more than Oct 6th 2023 is to demolish Gaza, take over the West Bank, and destroy Iran and their proxies.

I wouldn’t have as many issues with their actions, us funding it, and us being directly being involved if i believed their goal was just getting back to Oct 7th.

Okay, well, your belief is completely unfalsifiable, so we'll just agree to disagree.

I base it on their actions and what the people making the decisions say. Correct, neither of us can prove what is truly in their heads and heart, but there is evidence for my opinion.

Of course we can just agree to disagree, this is just currently a topic where i feel like i am reading or seeing things way differently from people and i struggle to understand it. In the end it is probably a basic departure in base worldview as to what is a justified or appropriate reaction to something like 10/6.

They would be justified in leveling Gaza. That's what we did to Germany and Japan when we decided that those governments had to go, and we were right. But that's not a particularly interesting issue. I'm not sure whether it's in Israel's actual material interest to level Gaza, and I'll trust them to sort that out on their own. I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other.

we were just as guilty of war crimes as Israel is now

So? We won.

Oh, good lord

I think defeating Nazism was more important than whatever it is that you parachuted in here to argue about. You disagree. We can agree to disagree.

Did I argue that defeating Nazism was a bad thing? I must have missed that.

You seem to be more worried about "war crimes" committed by the allies than you are about the fact that the allies actually won the war. That's what you led off with, after all.

If you have some other point, feel free to say it out loud so we don't have to guess.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I think people forget that the japanese in the 1930s-1940s were not the super polite non violent society they are now. It took dropping two atomic bombs. And somehow we didnt just breed the next nation of Nanjing rapers.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I think people forget that the japanese in the 1930s-1940s were not the super polite non violent society they are now. It took dropping two atomic bombs. And somehow we didnt just breed the next nation of Nanjing rapers.

At the time, the US apparently strongly considered doing a public demonstration of the atomic bomb, in the hopes that doing so would encourage Japan to surrender. If I put myself in Truman's shoes, I would have been sorely tempted to go that route. But, with the benefit of hindsight, we now know with 100% certainty that that wouldn't have worked. If Japan didn't surrender after Hiroshima, they certainly wouldn't have surrendered in response to a test. They just barely surrendered -- very reluctantly -- after the second bomb. And we only had two bombs.

As I've gotten older, I've come to the conclusion that a lot of the hand-wringing over stuff like this is less about values or ethics, and more about personality. Dropping the atomic bomb on Japan, or firebombing axis cities, isn't very nice, and nobody really wants to do that. But which is more important: winning the war, or keeping your hands clean? I'm a pragmatist, not a perfectionist. If firebombing Dresden is necessary to win the war, then put me down in favor of firebombing Dresden. If the war isn't worth winning, then we shouldn't be fighting it in the first place. If burning down Atlanta is what it takes to win the civil war, then Atlanta burns.

The Oppenheimer movie is instructive here. There's a certain type of person who daydreams about this stuff, and they imagine themselves as Oppenheimer. The other type of person imagines himself as Truman. We need both types of people, but we should set up society so that people like Truman are selected for leadership positions and people like Oppenheimer are un-selected. You want your wars fought by people like Roosevelt, Truman, and Churchill, not the Oppenheimers of the world.

Edit: Also, while we're on the topic. international law isn't real. Nobody is going to force your enemies to obey your rules, and nobody is going to do anything if you violate them yourself. If we go to war, we should do so under our own self-chosen moral principles, and then do everything we can to win within those principles. Then, after we win, we will have lots of time to listen to the hand-wringers lecture the rest of us about what we should have done differently. Just like with WWII.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I think people forget that the japanese in the 1930s-1940s were not the super polite non violent society they are now. It took dropping two atomic bombs. And somehow we didnt just breed the next nation of Nanjing rapers.

Who are you equating the Japanese to from your example in our current situation?

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Not sure I would whip out that word, but IMO:

1. there is no "elimination" of Hamas.
2. that is just one piece of the equation currently and it doesn't address Iran and it's other proxy armies (which goes back to #1)

I was just piggy backing your point and thought that would be easier on the eyes to reply to than para's.

Of course there is. Their support will dwindle. Association with them will be a death sentence. They will be done.

And this time there is no trying to control the bear with wolves strategy at play. It seems they are going to see this through and kill the bear.

"Hamas" is merely the current group running with the ideal that has been firmly in place for hundreds of years.