Iran Launches "Large Scale Attack" on Israel (2 Viewers)

[The Z Machine]

Not sure I would whip out that word, but IMO:

1. there is no "elimination" of Hamas.
2. that is just one piece of the equation currently and it doesn't address Iran and it's other proxy armies (which goes back to #1)

I was just piggy backing your point and thought that would be easier on the eyes to reply to than para's.

Of course there is. Their support will dwindle. Association with them will be a death sentence. They will be done.

And this time there is no trying to control the bear with wolves strategy at play. It seems they are going to see this through and kill the bear.

"Hamas" is merely the current group running with the ideal that has been firmly in place for hundreds of years.

Hamas as an organization might be eliminated but the people (kids really) that will sacrifice their lives to fight against Israel will still be around. It's obviously not an easy problem to fix, but the destruction of cities in Gaza likely doesn't help here. Life in Gaza was hard and young people had few avenues to further their lives, and that was prior to the ground invasion.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Not sure I would whip out that word, but IMO:

1. there is no "elimination" of Hamas.
2. that is just one piece of the equation currently and it doesn't address Iran and it's other proxy armies (which goes back to #1)

I was just piggy backing your point and thought that would be easier on the eyes to reply to than para's.

Of course there is. Their support will dwindle. Association with them will be a death sentence. They will be done.

And this time there is no trying to control the bear with wolves strategy at play. It seems they are going to see this through and kill the bear.

"Hamas" is merely the current group running with the ideal that has been firmly in place for hundreds of years.

Hamas as an organization might be eliminated but the people (kids really) that will sacrifice their lives to fight against Israel will still be around. It's obviously not an easy problem to fix, but the destruction of cities in Gaza likely doesn't help here. Life in Gaza was hard and young people had few avenues to further their lives, and that was prior to the ground invasion.

Agreed. Its a costly game of whack-a-mole that people refuse to acknowledge for whatever reason. It can't be "fixed" but it can be contained to some extent.

I'll also say this notion that Israel is defending itself really isn't an honest assesment either. They dont have the ability to do that themselves.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I think people forget that the japanese in the 1930s-1940s were not the super polite non violent society they are now. It took dropping two atomic bombs. And somehow we didnt just breed the next nation of Nanjing rapers.

Who are you equating the Japanese to from your example in our current situation?

Obviously the Kansas City sports teams in 2024.

 

[ChiefD]

I think people forget that the japanese in the 1930s-1940s were not the super polite non violent society they are now. It took dropping two atomic bombs. And somehow we didnt just breed the next nation of Nanjing rapers.

Who are you equating the Japanese to from your example in our current situation?

Obviously the Kansas City sports teams in 2024.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

If anything I think Israel is a lot more justified in what they're doing than what we did with the Japanese.

For starters Japan wasn't intentionally attacking civilians like Hamas did on 10/6. In that war, our civilians were at essentially no risk at all. We made the very explicit decision to trade Japanese civilian lives for American soldier lives, going out of our way specifically to kill more civilians (whereas Israel is targeting Hamas/military and the civilians are collateral damage).

Hamas' morality is much worse (targeting civilians vs Japanese targeting the military), and there's a big difference between civilians getting harmed as collateral damage (Gaza) versus civilians explicitly and intentionally being targeted (Hiroshima/Nagasaki).

 

[thecatch]

If anything I think Israel is a lot more justified in what they're doing than what we did with the Japanese.

For starters Japan wasn't intentionally attacking civilians like Hamas did on 10/6. In that war, our civilians were at essentially no risk at all. We made the very explicit decision to trade Japanese civilian lives for American soldier lives, going out of our way specifically to kill more civilians (whereas Israel is targeting Hamas/military and the civilians are collateral damage).

Hamas' morality is much worse (targeting civilians vs Japanese targeting the military), and there's a big difference between civilians getting harmed as collateral damage (Gaza) versus civilians explicitly and intentionally being targeted (Hiroshima/Nagasaki).

I think the Chinese would have some pretty strong objections to this statement.

 

[beer 30]

If anything I think Israel is a lot more justified in what they're doing than what we did with the Japanese.

For starters Japan wasn't intentionally attacking civilians like Hamas did on 10/6. In that war, our civilians were at essentially no risk at all. We made the very explicit decision to trade Japanese civilian lives for American soldier lives, going out of our way specifically to kill more civilians (whereas Israel is targeting Hamas/military and the civilians are collateral damage).

Hamas' morality is much worse (targeting civilians vs Japanese targeting the military), and there's a big difference between civilians getting harmed as collateral damage (Gaza) versus civilians explicitly and intentionally being targeted (Hiroshima/Nagasaki).

Interesting take. I'd counter that maybe Japan wasn't intentionally attacking civilians they were enslaving them as they took over territories so what is worse? They weren't particularly nice folks to the conquered either as @thecatch eludes to.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If anything I think Israel is a lot more justified in what they're doing than what we did with the Japanese.

For starters Japan wasn't intentionally attacking civilians like Hamas did on 10/6. In that war, our civilians were at essentially no risk at all. We made the very explicit decision to trade Japanese civilian lives for American soldier lives, going out of our way specifically to kill more civilians (whereas Israel is targeting Hamas/military and the civilians are collateral damage).

Hamas' morality is much worse (targeting civilians vs Japanese targeting the military), and there's a big difference between civilians getting harmed as collateral damage (Gaza) versus civilians explicitly and intentionally being targeted (Hiroshima/Nagasaki).

I think the Chinese would have some pretty strong objections to this statement.

The Japanese were straight-up evil, but I think FBGL's point was that the Japanese didn't attack American civilians (everyone will concede that Pearl Harbor was a perfectly legitimate military target, sucker punch aside) and they never posed any serious threat to American civilians aside from a few worries about west coast attacks that never materialized. We didn't bomb Hiroshima to avenge the rape of Nanking. That was about bringing the war to an end by sensibly and correctly trading off a bunch of Japanese civilians for American GIs.

 

[thecatch]

If anything I think Israel is a lot more justified in what they're doing than what we did with the Japanese.

For starters Japan wasn't intentionally attacking civilians like Hamas did on 10/6. In that war, our civilians were at essentially no risk at all. We made the very explicit decision to trade Japanese civilian lives for American soldier lives, going out of our way specifically to kill more civilians (whereas Israel is targeting Hamas/military and the civilians are collateral damage).

Hamas' morality is much worse (targeting civilians vs Japanese targeting the military), and there's a big difference between civilians getting harmed as collateral damage (Gaza) versus civilians explicitly and intentionally being targeted (Hiroshima/Nagasaki).

I think the Chinese would have some pretty strong objections to this statement.

The Japanese were straight-up evil, but I think FBGL's point was that the Japanese didn't attack American civilians (everyone will concede that Pearl Harbor was a perfectly legitimate military target, sucker punch aside) and they never posed any serious threat to American civilians aside from a few worries about west coast attacks that never materialized. We didn't bomb Hiroshima to avenge the rape of Nanking. That was about bringing the war to an end by sensibly and correctly trading off a bunch of Japanese civilians for American GIs.

The next paragraph asserts Hamas's morality is worse because the Japanese military didn't target civilians writ large.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

If anything I think Israel is a lot more justified in what they're doing than what we did with the Japanese.

For starters Japan wasn't intentionally attacking civilians like Hamas did on 10/6. In that war, our civilians were at essentially no risk at all. We made the very explicit decision to trade Japanese civilian lives for American soldier lives, going out of our way specifically to kill more civilians (whereas Israel is targeting Hamas/military and the civilians are collateral damage).

Hamas' morality is much worse (targeting civilians vs Japanese targeting the military), and there's a big difference between civilians getting harmed as collateral damage (Gaza) versus civilians explicitly and intentionally being targeted (Hiroshima/Nagasaki).

I think the Chinese would have some pretty strong objections to this statement.

The Japanese were straight-up evil, but I think FBGL's point was that the Japanese didn't attack American civilians (everyone will concede that Pearl Harbor was a perfectly legitimate military target, sucker punch aside) and they never posed any serious threat to American civilians aside from a few worries about west coast attacks that never materialized. We didn't bomb Hiroshima to avenge the rape of Nanking. That was about bringing the war to an end by sensibly and correctly trading off a bunch of Japanese civilians for American GIs.

I think this was a rationalization to make the slaughter more palatable. It's been almost 80 years now, and I think we can drop the 'lesser of 2 evils' reason.

I am in no way condoning what Japan did (they were horrible). But dropping those 2 bombs on populated areas was evil.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If anything I think Israel is a lot more justified in what they're doing than what we did with the Japanese.

For starters Japan wasn't intentionally attacking civilians like Hamas did on 10/6. In that war, our civilians were at essentially no risk at all. We made the very explicit decision to trade Japanese civilian lives for American soldier lives, going out of our way specifically to kill more civilians (whereas Israel is targeting Hamas/military and the civilians are collateral damage).

Hamas' morality is much worse (targeting civilians vs Japanese targeting the military), and there's a big difference between civilians getting harmed as collateral damage (Gaza) versus civilians explicitly and intentionally being targeted (Hiroshima/Nagasaki).

I think the Chinese would have some pretty strong objections to this statement.

The Japanese were straight-up evil, but I think FBGL's point was that the Japanese didn't attack American civilians (everyone will concede that Pearl Harbor was a perfectly legitimate military target, sucker punch aside) and they never posed any serious threat to American civilians aside from a few worries about west coast attacks that never materialized. We didn't bomb Hiroshima to avenge the rape of Nanking. That was about bringing the war to an end by sensibly and correctly trading off a bunch of Japanese civilians for American GIs.

I think this was a rationalization to make the slaughter more palatable. It's been almost 80 years now, and I think we can drop the 'lesser of 2 evils' reason.

I am in no way condoning what Japan did (they were horrible). But dropping those 2 bombs on populated areas was evil.

Glad you weren't the one making the decision.

And I don't think it was a lesser evil. I think it was affirmatively the right thing to do. Knowing what we know now (and honestly, knowing what we knew then), I would have flown the Enola Gay myself. Every other choice available to us was worse than the one Truman actually chose.

(I'll try to drop this sidebar -- I've said my part.)

 

[Sand]

If anything I think Israel is a lot more justified in what they're doing than what we did with the Japanese.

For starters Japan wasn't intentionally attacking civilians like Hamas did on 10/6. In that war, our civilians were at essentially no risk at all. We made the very explicit decision to trade Japanese civilian lives for American soldier lives, going out of our way specifically to kill more civilians (whereas Israel is targeting Hamas/military and the civilians are collateral damage).

Hamas' morality is much worse (targeting civilians vs Japanese targeting the military), and there's a big difference between civilians getting harmed as collateral damage (Gaza) versus civilians explicitly and intentionally being targeted (Hiroshima/Nagasaki).

Japan also had an all kill order for all allied POWs if the mainland was invaded. When talking about the two bombs one has to factor in that those attacks saved 200k young men who got to go home. Even without that it was the right thing to do and saved lives in the balance. That's fodder for another thread to go through in detail.

On the Hamas side, those wonderful chaps held a Yazidi slave for a decade in Gaza. The IDF just freed her. If you want to talk about evil...

Yazidi girl Fawzia Amin Sido, taken as ISIS slave at age 11 — and then held by Hamas for 10 years — is rescued by Israeli troops in Gaza

Fawzia Amin Sido, 21, was freed from Gaza earlier this week after a months-long rescue operation led by the United States, officials said Thursday.

nypost.com

 

[The Z Machine]

I don't think anyone is defending Hamas, their morality or their actions. They are evil and horrific. Rather, I question the purpose and goal of Israel's actions. Is it to free hostages? Is it to end Hamas as an organization? Is it to punish the Gazan population for supporting Hamas and enabling them to perpetrate horrific acts? Is it to keep Bibi in power?

 

[FreeBaGeL]

If anything I think Israel is a lot more justified in what they're doing than what we did with the Japanese.

For starters Japan wasn't intentionally attacking civilians like Hamas did on 10/6. In that war, our civilians were at essentially no risk at all. We made the very explicit decision to trade Japanese civilian lives for American soldier lives, going out of our way specifically to kill more civilians (whereas Israel is targeting Hamas/military and the civilians are collateral damage).

Hamas' morality is much worse (targeting civilians vs Japanese targeting the military), and there's a big difference between civilians getting harmed as collateral damage (Gaza) versus civilians explicitly and intentionally being targeted (Hiroshima/Nagasaki).

Japan also had an all kill order for all allied POWs if the mainland was invaded. When talking about the two bombs one has to factor in that those attacks saved 200k young men who got to go home. Even without that it was the right thing to do and saved lives in the balance. That's fodder for another thread to go through in detail.

On the Hamas side, those wonderful chaps held a Yazidi slave for a decade in Gaza. The IDF just freed her. If you want to talk about evil...

Yazidi girl Fawzia Amin Sido, taken as ISIS slave at age 11 — and then held by Hamas for 10 years — is rescued by Israeli troops in Gaza

Fawzia Amin Sido, 21, was freed from Gaza earlier this week after a months-long rescue operation led by the United States, officials said Thursday.

nypost.com

Intentionally killing soldiers that are POWs is bad. Intentionally killing and kindapping civilians at a concert is baderer.

And on the flipside, intentionally blowing up cities with the express intent of killing civilians seems to me to be closer to the line of morality than attacking military targets where there is a high likelihood of civilian collateral damage that is trying to be avoided, but ultimately difficult to avoid.

I'm not arguing that what the US did was un-just, rather making the point that I find it difficult to figure out the logic that would consider what the US did to be just, but what Israel is doing to be unjust. Given that I think most would consider the US's actions in WW2 to be defendable, I'm surprised there is so much blowback on Israel's attempt to root out and destroy the government that will continue to attack its civilian population if left alive.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

I don't think anyone is defending Hamas, their morality or their actions. They are evil and horrific. Rather, I question the purpose and goal of Israel's actions. Is it to free hostages? Is it to end Hamas as an organization? Is it to punish the Gazan population for supporting Hamas and enabling them to perpetrate horrific acts? Is it to keep Bibi in power?

Yes

 

[Monty Burns]

a quick aside on the 1945 A-Bomb decision: https://www.npr.org/2010/01/16/122591119/hell-to-pay-sheds-new-light-on-a-bomb-decision
There are many rough estimates on casualties if the US had to invade Japan in 1945 in lieu of using the A-Bombs. This book estimates up to 1 million US/Allied casualties and significantly more by Japan. In the notes it added that the Japanese military estimated up to 20 million Japanese casualties alone. Their military was prepared to commit national suicide as they were well aware of the allies knowledge of all their unforgivable war crimes.

 

[Sand]

1 year since the Iranian proxy Hamas rampaged. 97 hostages still held. Interestingly no news on strikes on this anniversary, though Iran richly deserve them.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

1 year since the Iranian proxy Hamas rampaged. 97 hostages still held. Interestingly no news on strikes on this anniversary, though Iran richly deserve them.

I often wonder if Hamas would do 10/7 if they had it to do over again. It seems like one of the most disastrously bad military decisions in modern history, but I'm not at all sure that Sinwar, for example, would view it that way.

 

[Max Power]

1 year since the Iranian proxy Hamas rampaged. 97 hostages still held. Interestingly no news on strikes on this anniversary, though Iran richly deserve them.

Lots of politics going on behind closed doors right now.

My guess is that Israel is itching to escalate this, but still wants some reassurances from the US before doing so.

 

[El Floppo]

1 year since the Iranian proxy Hamas rampaged. 97 hostages still held. Interestingly no news on strikes on this anniversary, though Iran richly deserve them.

I often wonder if Hamas would do 10/7 if they had it to do over again. It seems like one of the most disastrously bad military decisions in modern history, but I'm not at all sure that Sinwar, for example, would view it that way.

I think they got their best possible outcome out of it- world sympathies waning from Israel's anticipated over reaction.

 

[McBokonon]

IDF checking if Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar killed in Gaza strike

Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar killed in Gaza, IDF confirms | The Jerusalem Post

In an unexpected turn of events, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar was killed during an IDF operation in Rafah, potentially reshaping the conflict's dynamics. No hostages were killed during the operation.

www.jpost.com

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Lots of politics going on behind closed doors right now.

It better be, because it's not allowed around here.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

IDF checking if Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar killed in Gaza strike

Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar killed in Gaza, IDF confirms | The Jerusalem Post

In an unexpected turn of events, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar was killed during an IDF operation in Rafah, potentially reshaping the conflict's dynamics. No hostages were killed during the operation.

www.jpost.com

There is a photo of the corpse in question making the rounds. I'm very cautiously optimistic.

Edit: That was phrased ambiguously. I mean that I'm (very cautiously) optimistic, not very (cautiously optimistic).

 

[Da Guru]

IDF checking if Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar killed in Gaza strike

Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar killed in Gaza, IDF confirms | The Jerusalem Post

In an unexpected turn of events, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar was killed during an IDF operation in Rafah, potentially reshaping the conflict's dynamics. No hostages were killed during the operation.

www.jpost.com

There is a photo of the corpse in question making the rounds. I'm very cautiously optimistic.

Israel is picking them off.

Who wants to be the next leader of Hamas?? Your life expectancy will be about 30 days.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Let's keep the good folks at Columbia University in our thoughts and prayers during this difficult time for them.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

Where we seem to differ is I believe what they want even more than Oct 6th 2023 is to demolish Gaza, take over the West Bank, and destroy Iran and their proxies.

I wouldn’t have as many issues with their actions, us funding it, and us being directly being involved if i believed their goal was just getting back to Oct 7th.

Okay, well, your belief is completely unfalsifiable, so we'll just agree to disagree.

I base it on their actions and what the people making the decisions say. Correct, neither of us can prove what is truly in their heads and heart, but there is evidence for my opinion.

Of course we can just agree to disagree, this is just currently a topic where i feel like i am reading or seeing things way differently from people and i struggle to understand it. In the end it is probably a basic departure in base worldview as to what is a justified or appropriate reaction to something like 10/6.

They would be justified in leveling Gaza. That's what we did to Germany and Japan when we decided that those governments had to go, and we were right. But that's not a particularly interesting issue. I'm not sure whether it's in Israel's actual material interest to level Gaza, and I'll trust them to sort that out on their own. I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other.

we were just as guilty of war crimes as Israel is now

So? We won.

Oh, good lord

I think defeating Nazism was more important than whatever it is that you parachuted in here to argue about. You disagree. We can agree to disagree.

Did I argue that defeating Nazism was a bad thing? I must have missed that.

You seem to be more worried about "war crimes" committed by the allies than you are about the fact that the allies actually won the war. That's what you led off with, after all.

If you have some other point, feel free to say it out loud so we don't have to guess.

War crimes are war crimes. I know, it helped "our team" win, but let's not pretend it didn't happen. Ends justifying the means and all that.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Regardless, this would be an opportune time for Israel to float the possibility of a ceasefire and the return of any hostages who are still alive. If Hamas wants to keep fighting, that's fine, but Israel has settled an awful lot of family business recently and maybe Hamas isn't quite as war-hungry now as they were a year ago.

 

[Dr_Zaius]

There's a school of thought that a war can't actually end until the losing side agrees that it has lost. I think about that a lot in regards to the way the West as a whole fights wars in a modern setting. Recoiling from civilian casualties is morally the right thing to do, but it's not at all clear to me that it ends up net saving lives in the end, as fighting in a limited fashion often results in a perpetual low scale conflict.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

IDF checking if Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar killed in Gaza strike

Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar killed in Gaza, IDF confirms | The Jerusalem Post

In an unexpected turn of events, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar was killed during an IDF operation in Rafah, potentially reshaping the conflict's dynamics. No hostages were killed during the operation.

www.jpost.com

There is a photo of the corpse in question making the rounds. I'm very cautiously optimistic.

Israel is picking them off.

Who wants to be the next leader of Hamas?? Your life expectancy will be about 30 days.

Death is an honor on that side of the coin. There are hundreds ready to take up the charge. In the struggle between Islam and Israel, this has been true for hundreds of years and there is no reason to believe it won't continue for hundreds more. IF Israel manages to terminate the identity of "Hamas", the torch will assuredly be picked up by another faction with a different name.

 

[Jayrod]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

Where we seem to differ is I believe what they want even more than Oct 6th 2023 is to demolish Gaza, take over the West Bank, and destroy Iran and their proxies.

I wouldn’t have as many issues with their actions, us funding it, and us being directly being involved if i believed their goal was just getting back to Oct 7th.

Okay, well, your belief is completely unfalsifiable, so we'll just agree to disagree.

I base it on their actions and what the people making the decisions say. Correct, neither of us can prove what is truly in their heads and heart, but there is evidence for my opinion.

Of course we can just agree to disagree, this is just currently a topic where i feel like i am reading or seeing things way differently from people and i struggle to understand it. In the end it is probably a basic departure in base worldview as to what is a justified or appropriate reaction to something like 10/6.

They would be justified in leveling Gaza. That's what we did to Germany and Japan when we decided that those governments had to go, and we were right. But that's not a particularly interesting issue. I'm not sure whether it's in Israel's actual material interest to level Gaza, and I'll trust them to sort that out on their own. I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other.

we were just as guilty of war crimes as Israel is now

So? We won.I

Oh, good lord

I think defeating Nazism was more important than whatever it is that you parachuted in here to argue about. You disagree. We can agree to disagree.

Did I argue that defeating Nazism was a bad thing? I must have missed that.

You seem to be more worried about "war crimes" committed by the allies than you are about the fact that the allies actually won the war. That's what you led off with, after all.

If you have some other point, feel free to say it out loud so we don't have to guess.

War crimes are war crimes. I know, it helped "our team" win, but let's not pretend it didn't happen. Ends justifying the means and all that.

Oh, good grief.

Do you know what the Nazis and Japanese did to their enemies/foes? War crimes? Anything the Allies did pales in comparison to those brutal inhuman SOB's did for years in that war. And the majority of Allied war crimes were perpetuated by the Russians who we promptly went straight into the Cold War with because of their moral bankruptcy.

And the people of Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis and the leaders of Iran are right in line with that. Read what they did on 10/6/23. The details. Because that is what the Jews and Israel are facing. That is the people they are fighting against on like 3-4 different fronts.

I get so sick of this thinking you can just wage war and have any success without killing innocent people who are being INTENTIONALLY placed in harms way by their leaders. It's not "ends justifying the means", its war. Just plain nasty gross, horrible war. And in Israel's case it has become necessary.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Are there still hostages unaccounted for and Hamas militants holed up in Gaza buildings and tunnels?

If so, the war isn't over.

Israel is going to finish it as they see fit and I dont know of a country that really has clean enough hands to tell them what to do.

So, war until the hostages are all dead?

It's not up to me, but if it was, it would be war until Hamas surrenders, or until there is nobody left alive to surrender. This is one of those wars where somebody needs to lose decisively.

Do you feel like Isreal wants that part of the war to be over?

To me it very much feels like Isreal (clarification- Bibi) wants war with Iran and the region/Iran's proxy armies.

I'm sure Israel would probably prefer life on October 6 vs. today. Alas, that was not to be.

Where we seem to differ is I believe what they want even more than Oct 6th 2023 is to demolish Gaza, take over the West Bank, and destroy Iran and their proxies.

I wouldn’t have as many issues with their actions, us funding it, and us being directly being involved if i believed their goal was just getting back to Oct 7th.

Okay, well, your belief is completely unfalsifiable, so we'll just agree to disagree.

I base it on their actions and what the people making the decisions say. Correct, neither of us can prove what is truly in their heads and heart, but there is evidence for my opinion.

Of course we can just agree to disagree, this is just currently a topic where i feel like i am reading or seeing things way differently from people and i struggle to understand it. In the end it is probably a basic departure in base worldview as to what is a justified or appropriate reaction to something like 10/6.

They would be justified in leveling Gaza. That's what we did to Germany and Japan when we decided that those governments had to go, and we were right. But that's not a particularly interesting issue. I'm not sure whether it's in Israel's actual material interest to level Gaza, and I'll trust them to sort that out on their own. I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other.

we were just as guilty of war crimes as Israel is now

So? We won.I

Oh, good lord

I think defeating Nazism was more important than whatever it is that you parachuted in here to argue about. You disagree. We can agree to disagree.

Did I argue that defeating Nazism was a bad thing? I must have missed that.

You seem to be more worried about "war crimes" committed by the allies than you are about the fact that the allies actually won the war. That's what you led off with, after all.

If you have some other point, feel free to say it out loud so we don't have to guess.

War crimes are war crimes. I know, it helped "our team" win, but let's not pretend it didn't happen. Ends justifying the means and all that.

Oh, good grief.

Do you know what the Nazis and Japanese did to their enemies/foes? War crimes? Anything the Allies did pales in comparison to those brutal inhuman SOB's did for years in that war. And the majority of Allied war crimes were perpetuated by the Russians who we promptly went straight into the Cold War with because of their moral bankruptcy.

And the people of Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis and the leaders of Iran are right in line with that. Read what they did on 10/6/23. The details. Because that is what the Jews and Israel are facing. That is the people they are fighting against on like 3-4 different fronts.

I get so sick of this liberal disease thinking you can just wage war and have any success without killing innocent people who are being INTENTIONALLY placed in harms war by their leaders. It's not "ends justifying the means", its war. Just plain nasty gross, horrible war. And in Israel's case it has become necessary.

At some point, you just have to accept that our values are irreconcilable with these folks. These people would have happily sent our grandfathers to die on the Japanese mainland so that they can sit back and purr at their moral superiority 80 years later. You're never going to reach agreement with people like that. Just be glad they aren't calling these shots.

 

[Da Guru]

IDF checking if Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar killed in Gaza strike

Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar killed in Gaza, IDF confirms | The Jerusalem Post

In an unexpected turn of events, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar was killed during an IDF operation in Rafah, potentially reshaping the conflict's dynamics. No hostages were killed during the operation.

www.jpost.com

There is a photo of the corpse in question making the rounds. I'm very cautiously optimistic.

Israel is picking them off.

Who wants to be the next leader of Hamas?? Your life expectancy will be about 30 days.

Death is an honor on that side of the coin. There are hundreds ready to take up the charge. In the struggle between Islam and Israel, this has been true for hundreds of years and there is no reason to believe it won't continue for hundreds more. IF Israel manages to terminate the identity of "Hamas", the torch will assuredly be picked up by another faction with a different name.

Agree, but the leaders of these groups have always been safe for the most part, and never want to get into the actual fray. They let the minions do the dirty work.

That has been changed as of late.

 

[McBokonon]

Israel did confirm they got him.

 

[need2know]

wtg Israel. keep going

 

[IvanKaramazov]

@FBG Moderator
There are some political posts in this thread. IK and Jayrod continue skirting the line and often go over. Uncool gentlemen.

Take it up with the guy who bumped the thing about Hiroshima. I'm getting tired of tools bringing this stuff up and then whining about it when somebody pushes back.

 

[Sand]

I get so sick of this liberal disease thinking you can just wage war and have any success without killing innocent people who are being INTENTIONALLY placed in harms way by their leaders. It's not "ends justifying the means", its war. Just plain nasty gross, horrible war. And in Israel's case it has become necessary.

Many/most of the hostages that have been released or rescued were being held in civilian households. There really aren't a whole lot of true civilians in Gaza - a plurality are involved in some sense in this conflict. Children excepted, of course.

If anyone in the Islamic world would take them Israel would be best to evacuate Gaza and raze it. Harsh, but it's probably the quickest way to a lasting peace. Unfortunately absolutely no one in the Islamic world will take the Palestinians. They tried to overthrow Qatar (got expelled) and have done irreparable damage to Lebanon (which was a nice place until they took residence). A magic teleporter to send them to Iran would be nice.

 

[The Z Machine]

We're into name calling territory. Chill boys.

 

[Jayrod]

@FBG Moderator
There are some political posts in this thread. IK and Jayrod continue skirting the line and often go over. Uncool gentlemen.

Deleted the VERY OFFENSIVE phrase I used so as to make my post apolitical.

You can sleep in peace now knowing no political parties had their feelings hurt.

 

[Jayrod]

liberal disease

I have to imagine words like this are why politics are banned here. Good job.

We are talking about war here. You know, life and death, rape, torture, that sort of thing.

I've deleted that which caused all the distress.

Sorry I hurt some feelings.

 

[Jayrod]

Just a public service announcement since I'm continually venturing further into I don't give a crap territory. I've been radicalized by not the side I'm with but the opposition.

When I'm continually told up is down and down is up I get pretty impatient with any BS. Revisionist history to fit a narrative and whataboutism are not valid arguments. Nazis, Emperial Japan and Radical Islamists are all cut from the same cloth. They consider their opposition to be not human and treat them as such.

Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah started this and did HORRIFIC things. They started a war. Not a skirmish, not a police action, a full blown WAR because they were the ruling government in Gaza. Israel has been far more gracious than Gaza deserved.

 

[Joe Schmo]

s

Just a public service announcement since I'm continually venturing further into I don't give a crap territory. I've been radicalized by not the side I'm with but the opposition.

When I'm continually told up is down and down is up I get pretty impatient with any BS. Revisionist history to fit a narrative and whataboutism are not valid arguments. Nazis, Emperial Japan and Radical Islamists are all cut from the same cloth. They consider their opposition to be not human and treat them as such.

Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah started this and did HORRIFIC things. They started a war. Not a skirmish, not a police action, a full blown WAR because they were the ruling government in Gaza. Israel has been far more gracious than Gaza deserved.

A lot of that going around

 

[Jayrod]

s

Just a public service announcement since I'm continually venturing further into I don't give a crap territory. I've been radicalized by not the side I'm with but the opposition.

When I'm continually told up is down and down is up I get pretty impatient with any BS. Revisionist history to fit a narrative and whataboutism are not valid arguments. Nazis, Emperial Japan and Radical Islamists are all cut from the same cloth. They consider their opposition to be not human and treat them as such.

Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah started this and did HORRIFIC things. They started a war. Not a skirmish, not a police action, a full blown WAR because they were the ruling government in Gaza. Israel has been far more gracious than Gaza deserved.

A lot of that going around

A lot of baby burning and women raping?

Or are you trying to equate that to some people not being nice?

This is the kind of false equivalency watering down the true meaning of things that is pissing me off.

No. No. One is not like the other. Not even close.

 

[Joe Schmo]

s

Just a public service announcement since I'm continually venturing further into I don't give a crap territory. I've been radicalized by not the side I'm with but the opposition.

When I'm continually told up is down and down is up I get pretty impatient with any BS. Revisionist history to fit a narrative and whataboutism are not valid arguments. Nazis, Emperial Japan and Radical Islamists are all cut from the same cloth. They consider their opposition to be not human and treat them as such.

Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah started this and did HORRIFIC things. They started a war. Not a skirmish, not a police action, a full blown WAR because they were the ruling government in Gaza. Israel has been far more gracious than Gaza deserved.

A lot of that going around

A lot of baby burning and women raping?

Or are you trying to equate that to some people not being nice?

Buildings being dropped on babies and old folks too

 

[Jayrod]

s

Just a public service announcement since I'm continually venturing further into I don't give a crap territory. I've been radicalized by not the side I'm with but the opposition.

When I'm continually told up is down and down is up I get pretty impatient with any BS. Revisionist history to fit a narrative and whataboutism are not valid arguments. Nazis, Emperial Japan and Radical Islamists are all cut from the same cloth. They consider their opposition to be not human and treat them as such.

Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah started this and did HORRIFIC things. They started a war. Not a skirmish, not a police action, a full blown WAR because they were the ruling government in Gaza. Israel has been far more gracious than Gaza deserved.

A lot of that going around

A lot of baby burning and women raping?

Or are you trying to equate that to some people not being nice?

Buildings being dropped on babies and old folks too

So people being killed in war? Yeah, not the same as rape, torture and up close murder.

False equivalency and not the same. To say it is the same is just wrong and a dangerous false narrative.

 

[Jayrod]

s

Just a public service announcement since I'm continually venturing further into I don't give a crap territory. I've been radicalized by not the side I'm with but the opposition.

When I'm continually told up is down and down is up I get pretty impatient with any BS. Revisionist history to fit a narrative and whataboutism are not valid arguments. Nazis, Emperial Japan and Radical Islamists are all cut from the same cloth. They consider their opposition to be not human and treat them as such.

Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah started this and did HORRIFIC things. They started a war. Not a skirmish, not a police action, a full blown WAR because they were the ruling government in Gaza. Israel has been far more gracious than Gaza deserved.

A lot of that going around

A lot of baby burning and women raping?

Or are you trying to equate that to some people not being nice?

Buildings being dropped on babies and old folks too

And why are they there, still in those buildings? Who is under/behind them? Who voted for Hamas and allowed them to take power for so long?

 

[RCon]

And why are they there, still in those buildings?

Pretty sure the answer to this is because they're poor and have nowhere else to go. As you yourself stated, they aren't welcome anywhere. You're absolutely right on that point. You're absolutely wrong that there aren't any civilians left. There's plenty of poor, huddled masses that just want to live their lives in peace and can't because there are warring factions on either side of them (Hamas and Israel). And you're right, it is war and it sucks. That doesn't mean there aren't real, human costs. It's OK to acknowledge those costs and feel some empathy.

 

[Joe Schmo]

They consider their opposition to be not human and treat them as such.

Your words, your thoughts thus my response. Palestinians have been referred to as vermin in need of annihilation which is an idea made more palatable by dehumanizing the group.

 

[Jayrod]

And why are they there, still in those buildings?

Pretty sure the answer to this is because they're poor and have nowhere else to go. As you yourself stated, they aren't welcome anywhere. You're absolutely right on that point. You're absolutely wrong that there aren't any civilians left. There's plenty of poor, huddled masses that just want to live their lives in peace and can't because there are warring factions on either side of them (Hamas and Israel). And you're right, it is war and it sucks. That doesn't mean there aren't real, human costs. It's OK to acknowledge those costs and feel some empathy.

That was Ivan, not me.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Iran is really the only topic of discussion here. And maybe China and Russia supporting them because they make everything a headache for the western world. Israel is simply Iran's convenient target at the moment And Lebanon, Gaza, Yemen Syria, etc is their foreign base to do it.

Pretend for a minute Israel did not exist, would Shia Islam leaders suddenly be at peace with the world? 0.0000% chance. They would move on to their next target. Israel and to a lesser realized extent India are the western worlds barrier to farther reaching swaths of Islamic expansion.

Peace is a mirage. There are only civilizations that continue to exist and those that don't. The western world needs tougher stomachs. Death is a part of life. And the govts of Iran, China, and Russia would like nothing more than to end the life of every single American. I certainly am not going to grieve for anyone supported by them.

 

[Jayrod]

They consider their opposition to be not human and treat them as such.

Your words, your thoughts thus my response. Palestinians have been referred to as vermin in need of annihilation which is an idea made more palatable by dehumanizing the group.

Link? Never seen or heard this sentiment. I believe you, I'm just curious who is saying such about the Palestinians.

And I'm fairly sure Israel has not responded with the same vile behavior Hamas engaged in...even if this rhetoric is out there.