Is Champ truly the G.O.A.T. Corner? (1 Viewer)

[kremenull]

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Deion Sanders (by his 8th year) — Tackles=282, Passes Defended=83, Interceptions=34

Champ Bailey (by his 8th year)– Tackles=493, Passes Defended=138, Interceptions=39

Deion Sanders has been credited with the statement “You show me a corner that can tackle, and I’ll show you one that can’t cover.” To this I present CHAMP BAILEY! He has already passed Neon Deion’s TOTAL career tackles and passes defended numbers and is on pace to beat his total interception numbers. Deion may be the only NFL player to also play in a World Series, but when it comes to pure cornerbacks, Champ has him beat hands down. Champ is the complete package — tackling & covering.

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This is the classic case where numbers don't tell the complete story. To say that hands down, Champ Bailey is a better corner than Deion Sanders based on numbers is short-sighted. How about we look at IMPACT! And to that end, I would pose the question back to you in another fashion, who is the better football player? And hands down, it's Deion Sanders, and it's not even close. QBs were literally afraid to throw to Deion's side during his heyday, and that also helps to explain the lesser numbers. Although the same can be said about Champ to some degree, but QBs don't shy away from this guy like they did Deion, do we all agree? If not, then check out the tapes of both the Raiders, of all teams, vs. Denver in Mile High, when J.Porter torched Champ Bailey for like 3 TDs, and also a Monday Nite Football encounter pitting the Bengals vs. Broncos a couple of years ago when Chad annihilated Bailey to the tune of like 200+ yds and multiple scores as well. Let's not focus on his (Deion's) latter years in Dallas and Baltimore, as those years were after a lot of miles were put on those tires, both on AND off the field. One thing is for certain, though, Deion was one of the best playmakers that the league has ever seen, and I'm talking about game-changing playmaking skills and actions..........Returning punts (and ints), for TDs and/or long-gainers is very deflating to the opposition, and 'Prime' could swing the balance of games as much as any PLAYER in the history of the game, let alone a CB.

IMPACT is a much more telling determinator of who's better, and without a doubt, Deion is leap years better than Champ......and that's not a slight to Champ, he just isn't 'PrimeTime'

 

[Saints-Man]

Opposing QBs were in FEAR of throwing to Deion's side of the field. While Bailey is a great CB in his own right, he doesn't invoke that same level of fear, nor does he shut down half the field when he plays like Sanders did.

You might want to take a look at Bailey's numbers from last year. I think he intercepted something like 25% of the targets. Thats insane. Admittedly, last year was by far his best, but he was every bit the coverage force Deion ever was last year, and he played run support. So much of the problem with evaluating Deion is the insane hype he received, and continues to receive. And while he would take away a deep half, that isnt the same as a half of the field. He really should have just been a free safety, thats how he played the game anyway.

Those are my points exactly.

 

[Saints-Man]

To those who think Deion was significantly overrated, are you aware that he was Defensive Player of the Year in 1994? Since 1971, when the award started, only 4 CBs have won DPOY - Blount, Hayes, Woodson, and Sanders each won once. Were the voters wrong to select him?And what about All Pro selections? Deion was All Pro 6 times as a CB (and 2 other times as a kick returner). Were the voters wrong? How many other CBs have as many selections? Are there any? (I don't know the answer and can't find a reliable internet source with total selections.) Deion played at the same time as Woodson and Darrell Green and still earned those 6 selections. Champ has only made it 3 times, despite the fact that his contemporaries at CB are relatively weaker.

No one is claiming Deion isn't good...the claim is that he is not the GOAT. Darrell Green made the Pro Bowl 7 times and is 6 years older than Deion. By the time Deion made his first Pro Bowl in 1991, Green was on the downside of his career. Also, Woodson played in a different conference than Deion.

 

[Anthony Borbely]

Greatness is defined by dominance...and no CB was even close to as dominant as Sanders.

 

[Tau837]

To those who think Deion was significantly overrated, are you aware that he was Defensive Player of the Year in 1994? Since 1971, when the award started, only 4 CBs have won DPOY - Blount, Hayes, Woodson, and Sanders each won once. Were the voters wrong to select him?And what about All Pro selections? Deion was All Pro 6 times as a CB (and 2 other times as a kick returner). Were the voters wrong? How many other CBs have as many selections? Are there any? (I don't know the answer and can't find a reliable internet source with total selections.) Deion played at the same time as Woodson and Darrell Green and still earned those 6 selections. Champ has only made it 3 times, despite the fact that his contemporaries at CB are relatively weaker.

No one is claiming Deion isn't good...the claim is that he is not the GOAT. Darrell Green made the Pro Bowl 7 times and is 6 years older than Deion. By the time Deion made his first Pro Bowl in 1991, Green was on the downside of his career. Also, Woodson played in a different conference than Deion.

I didn't say Pro Bowl, I said All Pro. Conference is irrelevant.I'll concede that Green's best years did not overlap with Deion's best years, although I think it is a stretch to say he was on the downside of his career... Green played 6 seasons before Deion entered the league, but played 14 more from that point forward. And Green was All Pro in 1991, the first year Deion was All Pro. Also, I did not mention Aeneas Williams earlier; he played in the same era as Deion, and IMO should be in the HOF. The point is, competition for All Pro selections at CB was tougher for Deion than it is today. Yet he earned 6 All Pro selections. How does that stack up against other greats mentioned in this thread?Deion Sanders - 6 at CB, 2 at KRDick Lane - 5Rod Woodson - 4 at CB, 1 at S, 1 at KRMike Haynes - 4Aeneas Williams - 4Willie Brown - 4Mel Blount - 3Darrell Green - 3Champ Bailey - 3 and countingAnd you actually did say some things implying that not only is Deion not the GOAT, but also is vastly overrated as a cornerback. You said he was great at deep coverage but "ordinary" on other routes. Somehow, I don't think 6 All Pro selections go to cornerbacks who are only great at deep coverage.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Greatness is defined by dominance...and no CB was even close to as dominant as Sanders.

Blount was. Even more so.

 

[Tau837]

Greatness is defined by dominance...and no CB was even close to as dominant as Sanders.

Blount was. Even more so.

Blount played from 1970 to 1983. During that span, here are all CBs who were All Pro 3 or more times:Willie Brown - 4 timesRoger Wehrli - 4 timesMel Blount - 3 timesJimmy Johnson - 3 timesLemar Parrish - 3 timesLouis Wright - 3 timesInteresting that Blount didn't really stand out in his era. Also, while Blount was clearly a great player, he also benefited plenty from playing on arguably the best defense of all time.

 

[SSOG]

First off, let me go on record as saying that it's absolutely ridiculous to compare CBs based on their stats like tackles, PDs, and INTs, unless you're also looking at things like targets, yards per target, comp% allowed, QB Rating against, or something comparable that adjusts for the fact that bad CBs get good stats sometimes because they're targeted so much.

Second off, no way is Bailey the GOAT corner, although he's certainly on the right track and after last year he probably warrants a mention in the conversation. If he had played 4 or 5 years at the level he played at over the last two seasons, then yeah, he'd be right there... but as it stands, he's only played 2 years at an all-world level. The rest of his seasons have been "merely" great and far too inconsistent. Two more monster seasons and we'll talk.

No. Or did you totally remove the 2005 AFCC from your memory banks.

And while everyone has a bad day, that was a shot at the Superbowl. His biggest stage/game to date.

He's not Blount or Lane or Green or Sanders or even Walls.

Perhaps you removed the 2005 AFCC from YOUR memory banks. Pitt was picking on Foxworth and Williams, not Bailey, and the main reason they were so successful was because Denver was getting no pressure whatsoever. The only pass that was completed against Bailey was that ridiculous pass that Bailey tipped and almost intercepted and returned for 6, but which took a freakish bounce off the tip and wound up being completed to Ward. That was a great play by Bailey that wound up taking a horribly unlucky bounce. Other than that, here's a complete list of plays that Bailey was involved in:2-10-DEN33 (5:10) H.Ward left end to DEN 29 for 4 yards (D.Foxworth; C.Bailey). Reverse Play.

1-10-DEN24 (6:21) W.Parker right end to DEN 25 for -1 yards (A.Wilson, C.Bailey).

1-10-DEN38 (1:48) W.Parker left end pushed ob at DEN 28 for 10 yards (C.Bailey).

3-4-DEN33 (6:10) (Shotgun) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to H.Ward (C.Bailey).

There might have been another play or two that Bailey was involved in that someone else wound up cleaning up (the freak tip play, for instance), but no matter how you slice it, that's pretty freaking invisible- and for a CB, invisible is phenominal (how many times was Deion Sanders lauded for finishing playoff games with nothing but 0s in his box score?).

I recognize the point you are making about him possibly being the greatest cover corner, but when it comes down to it, what corner would you want on your team: The best cover, run supporting, or balanced? I'd have to go with cover.

Depends on the defense I'm running. If you're playing in the Tampa 2, starting Deion Sanders would be a great way to lose a lot of games, since the CB often has sole responsibility for protecting the edges. Shutting down the opposing #1 doesn't mean much if the opposing RB gets 8 yards every time he runs your way.Besides, Champ Bailey's season last year, based on COVERAGE ONLY, was as good as any season Deion ever had. He was one of the least targeted QBs in the league, he allowed the fewest YPA, he had the most interceptions, he authored the most and the biggest plays... and, oh yeah, he played in an environment where even looking at WRs crosswise will draw a hanky. His run support was also stellar, but even without it, he would measure up to Sanders in his prime, especially when you adjust for the environment that he played in.

We see this a lot in the offseason around here, when we get a dozen threads asking if different players are HOFers and in most cases they aren't. Yet there are always people arguing for them in every one of those threads.

I think that's just because the board is so big and there are so many homers. I mean, if there are a thousand fans from every single team, I'm sure there's going to be someone that thinks EVERY great player is HoF-worthy. That doesn't represent the opinion of the average FBG, it's just a testament to the sheer number of outliers there are in the population.

Opposing QBs were in FEAR of throwing to Deion's side of the field. While Bailey is a great CB in his own right, he doesn't invoke that same level of fear, nor does he shut down half the field when he plays like Sanders did.

Teams don't FEAR Bailey? Watch New England vs. Denver 2006. Thanks.Bailey doesn't shut down half of the field? Watch the 2006 season (especially the Arizona game), where Bailey was the least-targeted starting CB in the league. Thanks.

To those who think Deion was significantly overrated, are you aware that he was Defensive Player of the Year in 1994? Since 1971, when the award started, only 4 CBs have won DPOY - Blount, Hayes, Woodson, and Sanders each won once. Were the voters wrong to select him?

And what about All Pro selections? Deion was All Pro 6 times as a CB (and 2 other times as a kick returner). Were the voters wrong? How many other CBs have as many selections? Are there any? (I don't know the answer and can't find a reliable internet source with total selections.) Deion played at the same time as Woodson and Darrell Green and still earned those 6 selections. Champ has only made it 3 times, despite the fact that his contemporaries at CB are relatively weaker.

Bailey's season last year was better than Deion's DPoY season. As for All Pros and such... Deion Sanders = 6 all pros in 12 seasons (I'm ignoring his Baltimore stint, even). Champ Bailey = 3 all pros in 8 seasons (all three in the last three years). If Bailey continues playing at the same level, he could easily match Sanders' 6 All Pros in 12 seasons. And let's look at pro bowls, while we're at it- Sanders had 8 in 12 years, Bailey has 7 in 8 years.I honestly believe that Bailey is going to finish his career with 5+ All Pros and double-digit pro bowls, at which point Deion Sanders' awards will seem far less impressive.

I know that Bailey doesn't have 5+ all-pros YET, which is why I'm not willing to say that he's the GOAT *YET*. He needs more big years. He's definitely on the right track, but for the moment, he'll have to settle for being "potentially the greatest of all time".

 

[Tau837]

I was wondering how long it would take you to show up SSOG. Good post.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I have watched that game 10 times SSOG, I have it burnt on DVD.

You totally forgot (or purposely left out) Bailey biting on the BigBen pumpfake and delivering a TD to CWilson to open a 10 point lead. He was abused on that play. That is the play that took much of the life right out of the Broncos, they were never the same. And it was on Champ. On 3rd and 9.

I didnt say he was terrible, I said he had one of his worst games in the single biggest game of his life. Which really can hurt a GOAT discussion.

That doesnt mean he still isnt better then many others. But he certainly had a poor game.

"Freakish"? No, it just bounced out of his hands. If you watch, its because Ward out muscles Champ and throws/pushes/forces him to the ground. Thats who made the great play. Champ made a great read and jump, but he didnt make the play, in all actuality he was outplayed. Had he even caught it, it would not be advanced, despite what the announcers stated and mislead people to believe. An interception that most CBs make. Including Champ. Not on that day, however.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I'll never forget that Bengals/Broncos game where Chad Johnson smoked Bailey like it was another episode of Pros vs. Joes. Bailey got burned so bad one time that he fell over. Now if Bailey is the GOAT at the corner position, then CJ must be the greatest WR of all time.

Seriously, I know every CB gets beat from time to time, but I never saw Deion get burned like that in his prime, especially on the deep ball. Here's a good article from a couple years ago that examines Bailey's numbers vs his reputation:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ramblings...2840&cat=11

 

[Saints-Man]

Where are y'all getting your information as far as All-Pro designations? I was using ProFootballReference, and only Pro Bowls are listed.

 

[Tau837]

Where are y'all getting your information as far as All-Pro designations? I was using ProFootballReference, and only Pro Bowls are listed.

THIS is the only source I am aware of. I have found some specific year All Pro teams via Google, but they are not consistently available for all years.

 

[Mr. Bill O'Reilly]

It's a tough call Champ Bailey or Jason Sehorn...

Seriously though I think Champ is the greatest... People are quick to point out one time that champ got beat... that's when you know how great the guy is. Champ wasn't the reason the Broncos lost the AFCC game, not even close.

PS

Species was awesome though too bad about the injuries... from 96-97 he had 196 tackles, 31 passes defended, 4 1/2 sacks, 6 forced fumbles, 11 interceptions, and 2 touchdowns

 

[BigSteelThrill]

It's a tough call Champ Bailey or Jason Sehorn...

Seriously though I think Champ is the greatest... People are quick to point out one time that champ got beat... that's when you know how great the guy is.

Champ wasn't the reason the Broncos lost the AFCC game, not even close.

Noone ever said he was - Mr Strawman OReilly. He just had a bad game and he wasnt the only one that had a bad game.

He is just the "greatest/best" currently. The GOAT part isnt applicable.

 

[Mr. Bill O'Reilly]

Could you explain the strawman o'reilly... I don't get it

 

[SSOG]

I have watched that game 10 times SSOG, I have it burnt on DVD.

You totally forgot (or purposely left out) Bailey biting on the BigBen pumpfake and delivering a TD to CWilson to open a 10 point lead. He was abused on that play. That is the play that took much of the life right out of the Broncos, they were never the same. And it was on Champ. On 3rd and 9.

I didnt say he was terrible, I said he had one of his worst games in the single biggest game of his life. Which really can hurt a GOAT discussion.

That doesnt mean he still isnt better then many others. But he certainly had a poor game.

"Freakish"? No, it just bounced out of his hands. If you watch, its because Ward out muscles Champ and throws/pushes/forces him to the ground. Thats who made the great play. Champ made a great read and jump, but he didnt make the play, in all actuality he was outplayed. Had he even caught it, it would not be advanced, despite what the announcers stated and mislead people to believe. An interception that most CBs make. Including Champ. Not on that day, however.

I haven't watched the game in a while, but before you get so quick to blame that on Bailey, try checking the safeties. Make sure that Bailey wasn't supposed to have help over the top before you criticize him for letting someone get behind him. Also, break out the stopwatch and time how long Big Ben had in the pocket before you say Champ blew his coverage. Nobody can consistently cover for 4 seconds in the NFL. Nobody, ever, from any era.Now, even if it turns out that Bailey did have poor coverage on that play, this makes two completions against him all game. Two. T-w-o. And one of those was a fluke play where Ward got lucky. Champ Bailey burned the Steelers and made a textbook play, jumping the route and getting two hands on the ball. Yes, he didn't secure it, but as the saying goes... if CBs could catch, they'd be WRs. No player catches the ball 100% of the time, even when it hits them dead in the hands. What matters is that Champ Bailey read that play all the way, smoked Ward like a fat German sausage, jumped his route, and got two hands on the ball. How you can call this a bad play by Champ or a great play by Ward is beyond me. If a WR gets his route jumped and allows a CB to get two hands on the ball, then the WR just made a horrible play, and Ward lucked out in the extreme that the ball popped out of Bailey's hands and directly into the air. Heck, even with that missed catch, I betcha Champ Bailey finished 2006 with a better catch% than Hines Ward.

Beyond this, let me simply reiterate how ludicrous it is that you're calling this one of Champ Bailey's worst games. If one of Champ Bailey's worst games is a game where he gives up two catches then that just proves that he belongs in the GOAT discussion. I'm pretty sure that, if we wanted, we could find plenty of games where Deion Sanders allowed two catches- even playoff games, even the superbowl, and we could probably even find a game where he gave up a TD, to boot.

Geez, you want to talk about unrealistic expectations... it seems like Bailey is considered overrated if he allows a completion against him. Again, this is just proof of how great he really is.

I'll never forget that Bengals/Broncos game where Chad Johnson smoked Bailey like it was another episode of Pros vs. Joes. Bailey got burned so bad one time that he fell over. Now if Bailey is the GOAT at the corner position, then CJ must be the greatest WR of all time.

Seriously, I know every CB gets beat from time to time, but I never saw Deion get burned like that in his prime, especially on the deep ball. Here's a good article from a couple years ago that examines Bailey's numbers vs his reputation:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ramblings...2840&cat=11

First off, the game against Chad Johnson. Everyone always trots this out as an example of how overrated Champ Bailey is. Rewatch the game sometime, with the volume muted, and tell me who you think won that matchup. Really, there were three big plays between the two. The first big play was Johnson's long TD where Bailey fell down. That was an example of Chad Johnson making Bailey look silly. The next big play was Champ Bailey burning Johnson worse than my girlfriend burns my dinner when he jumps Johnson's route inside the 5-yard line and picks off the ball. That was an example of Bailey making Johnson look silly. The last big play was another long completion to Chad Johnson. Go back and watch this play again sometime. Notice how Chad Johnson puts both hands on Champ Bailey's shoulderpads when going up for the ball? Notice how he uses Bailey's body to leverage himself into the air? Notice how he uses his hands to keep Bailey from even leaving the ground or ever having a chance to make a play on the ball? That, my friends, is one of the most blatant examples of offensive pass interference I've ever seen. You could genetically cross Sanders with Blount and Night Train, and this genetic experiment couldn't even stop Chad Johnson from getting the ball if the refs allowed Johnson to put both hands on his shoulders and leverage himself into the air.So the score stands Johnson 1, Bailey 1, and the most blatant OPI no-call I've ever seen. The rest of the game, Johnson was limited and ineffective. Not the best game ever, but a very good game in 1-on-1 coverage with an all-world WR. That was a good game by Champ Bailey. Hell, even Deion Sanders rarely faced a WR the quality of Johnson- as has been noted, he was usually going 1-on-1 with the opposing #2.

As for the Football Outsiders article... everyone always brings that up. Check the date on it- it's from before the 2005 season. I've said multiple times in this thread that prior to 2005, Bailey was inconsistent and potentially overrated... but since then, he's been all-world. So providing an article from before the 2005 season that says that Bailey was inconsistent and potentially overrated isn't exactly proving me wrong, here. If you want, I could provide several links from Football Outsiders this season talking about how mind-blowingly amazing Bailey was this year. Yes, even the guys who wrote the most famous critique of Bailey are now 100% on board with the idea that Bailey is all-world.

Where are y'all getting your information as far as All-Pro designations? I was using ProFootballReference, and only Pro Bowls are listed.

Wikipedia.

 

[GregR_2]

As for the Football Outsiders article... everyone always brings that up. Check the date on it- it's from before the 2005 season. I've said multiple times in this thread that prior to 2005, Bailey was inconsistent and potentially overrated... but since then, he's been all-world. So providing an article from before the 2005 season that says that Bailey was inconsistent and potentially overrated isn't exactly proving me wrong, here. If you want, I could provide several links from Football Outsiders this season talking about how mind-blowingly amazing Bailey was this year. Yes, even the guys who wrote the most famous critique of Bailey are now 100% on board with the idea that Bailey is all-world.

Please do.

 

[dparker713]

To those who think Deion was significantly overrated, are you aware that he was Defensive Player of the Year in 1994? Since 1971, when the award started, only 4 CBs have won DPOY - Blount, Hayes, Woodson, and Sanders each won once. Were the voters wrong to select him?And what about All Pro selections? Deion was All Pro 6 times as a CB (and 2 other times as a kick returner). Were the voters wrong? How many other CBs have as many selections? Are there any? (I don't know the answer and can't find a reliable internet source with total selections.) Deion played at the same time as Woodson and Darrell Green and still earned those 6 selections. Champ has only made it 3 times, despite the fact that his contemporaries at CB are relatively weaker.

The voters are often wrong, and sometimes those selections happen out of habit, reputation or default. On the whole, Deion received more positive attention then he deserved for his play on the field.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I'll never forget that Bengals/Broncos game where Chad Johnson smoked Bailey like it was another episode of Pros vs. Joes. Bailey got burned so bad one time that he fell over. Now if Bailey is the GOAT at the corner position, then CJ must be the greatest WR of all time.

Seriously, I know every CB gets beat from time to time, but I never saw Deion get burned like that in his prime, especially on the deep ball. Here's a good article from a couple years ago that examines Bailey's numbers vs his reputation:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ramblings...2840&cat=11

First off, the game against Chad Johnson. Everyone always trots this out as an example of how overrated Champ Bailey is. Rewatch the game sometime, with the volume muted, and tell me who you think won that matchup. Really, there were three big plays between the two. The first big play was Johnson's long TD where Bailey fell down. That was an example of Chad Johnson making Bailey look silly. The next big play was Champ Bailey burning Johnson worse than my girlfriend burns my dinner when he jumps Johnson's route inside the 5-yard line and picks off the ball. That was an example of Bailey making Johnson look silly. The last big play was another long completion to Chad Johnson. Go back and watch this play again sometime. Notice how Chad Johnson puts both hands on Champ Bailey's shoulderpads when going up for the ball? Notice how he uses Bailey's body to leverage himself into the air? Notice how he uses his hands to keep Bailey from even leaving the ground or ever having a chance to make a play on the ball? That, my friends, is one of the most blatant examples of offensive pass interference I've ever seen. You could genetically cross Sanders with Blount and Night Train, and this genetic experiment couldn't even stop Chad Johnson from getting the ball if the refs allowed Johnson to put both hands on his shoulders and leverage himself into the air.So the score stands Johnson 1, Bailey 1, and the most blatant OPI no-call I've ever seen. The rest of the game, Johnson was limited and ineffective. Not the best game ever, but a very good game in 1-on-1 coverage with an all-world WR. That was a good game by Champ Bailey. Hell, even Deion Sanders rarely faced a WR the quality of Johnson- as has been noted, he was usually going 1-on-1 with the opposing #2.

As for the Football Outsiders article... everyone always brings that up. Check the date on it- it's from before the 2005 season. I've said multiple times in this thread that prior to 2005, Bailey was inconsistent and potentially overrated... but since then, he's been all-world. So providing an article from before the 2005 season that says that Bailey was inconsistent and potentially overrated isn't exactly proving me wrong, here. If you want, I could provide several links from Football Outsiders this season talking about how mind-blowingly amazing Bailey was this year. Yes, even the guys who wrote the most famous critique of Bailey are now 100% on board with the idea that Bailey is all-world.

SSOG you seem to really like Champ. Are you a Denver fan or just a Champ fan in general? I like him too but he's not close to the GOAT, although maybe the best currently playing. As for the game against CJ, he got owned for 7-149-1. Offensive Pass Interference? More like he got physically dominated. And he got owned again later that year by Jerry Porter for 6-135-2. Ok so let's assume he's a lot better now than he was then. And he was pretty good then too. Fast forward to the 2006 season. He had a great year. But he still had some games where the opposing offense did quite well against him including both Chargers games and the Seahawks game. Even in the season opener, the Rams were running him all over the field. He had 9 tackles, but Denver lost and the Rams showed they were not afraid to target him. And I guess that's my point with Bailey. He gets a lot of accolades but at the end of the day teams are not afraid to go after him, especially deep. Deion got more respect than Champ from opposing coordinators because he was a better cover corner. Champ is a better tackler than Deion, but so is most of the league.

 

[Tau837]

To those who think Deion was significantly overrated, are you aware that he was Defensive Player of the Year in 1994? Since 1971, when the award started, only 4 CBs have won DPOY - Blount, Hayes, Woodson, and Sanders each won once. Were the voters wrong to select him?And what about All Pro selections? Deion was All Pro 6 times as a CB (and 2 other times as a kick returner). Were the voters wrong? How many other CBs have as many selections? Are there any? (I don't know the answer and can't find a reliable internet source with total selections.) Deion played at the same time as Woodson and Darrell Green and still earned those 6 selections. Champ has only made it 3 times, despite the fact that his contemporaries at CB are relatively weaker.

The voters are often wrong, and sometimes those selections happen out of habit, reputation or default. On the whole, Deion received more positive attention then he deserved for his play on the field.

Even if there is a margin of error here, why would that margin of error have affected Deion disproportionately? I showed a list of the great CBs named in this thread and how many All Pros each had/have. If it is true that Deion was overselected out of habit, reputation, or default, then isn't it likely to have happened with the others as well? In which case, Deion still has an edge there.Aside from that, beyond statistics, there isn't much evidence to go on besides awards and honors. Deion was chosen for more awards and honors than any other CB as far as I can tell. And my own feeling from watching him play is that those awards and honors were deserved.

 

[Vision6]

LMAO at this thread. Champ Bailey lol

 

[SSOG]

As for the Football Outsiders article... everyone always brings that up. Check the date on it- it's from before the 2005 season. I've said multiple times in this thread that prior to 2005, Bailey was inconsistent and potentially overrated... but since then, he's been all-world. So providing an article from before the 2005 season that says that Bailey was inconsistent and potentially overrated isn't exactly proving me wrong, here. If you want, I could provide several links from Football Outsiders this season talking about how mind-blowingly amazing Bailey was this year. Yes, even the guys who wrote the most famous critique of Bailey are now 100% on board with the idea that Bailey is all-world.

Please do.

Here's their 2006 All-Pro Team, with Bailey listed as the #1 CB.Here's an article where they rated Bailey as the 10th best player in the NFL (and the 3rd best defensive player)... a mere three months before they wrote the infamous article about how Bailey was overrated. They also called him overrated in 2004, then again ranked him as the 10th best player in the NFL. I don't think they did a top-50 players in 2005 or 2006, unfortunately, but as you'll see from the rest of the links, they're definitely much higher on him now than they were back then.

A post on their blog that casually mentions some CB stats. Notice the only two starting CBs to appear in the top 10 on both lists.

A blog post discussing Bailey's first three weeks of the season. 11 targets, 40 yards allowed (not the correction of the St. Louis totals in the comments), and the longest completion against a whopping 8 yards long. This also puts the lie to the whole "teams don't shy away from Bailey" myth, since Tom Brady/Bill Belichick, widely considered the smartest QB/Coach in the league, threw 2 passes in Bailey's direction and 16 at the other two CBs (that's certainly what I'd call "avoiding Champ Bailey").

A "Random Shots"-style blog post. To quote: "I swear, they should just put it right on the ball: THIS IS AN OFFICIAL NFL FOOTBALL. DO NOT THROW THIS ANYWHERE NEAR CHAMP BAILEY."

In their preview of the second Den/SD game last year, they said the following: "Denver still has some advantages that make an upset conceivable. Champ Bailey is still the best cornerback in football, John Lynch is still a hard-hitting safety, and the linebackers are still strong, especially if Wilson can play."

It's not just the writers, either- according to the 2006 Football Outsiders Awards, which are voted on by the readers, it seems like everyone on the site has changed his mind. Bailey finished 2nd in FO "Defensive Player of the Year" voting, and after finishing as the 2nd-most-overrated player in the league for two straight seasons, he completely dropped off of the Overrated list (meaning people don't really think he's that overrated anymore).

Meanwhile, you'd be hard-pressed to find a negative word printed about Bailey at any point in the past year and a half.

SSOG you seem to really like Champ. Are you a Denver fan or just a Champ fan in general? I like him too but he's not close to the GOAT, although maybe the best currently playing. As for the game against CJ, he got owned for 7-149-1. Offensive Pass Interference? More like he got physically dominated. And he got owned again later that year by Jerry Porter for 6-135-2. Ok so let's assume he's a lot better now than he was then. And he was pretty good then too. Fast forward to the 2006 season. He had a great year. But he still had some games where the opposing offense did quite well against him including both Chargers games and the Seahawks game. Even in the season opener, the Rams were running him all over the field. He had 9 tackles, but Denver lost and the Rams showed they were not afraid to target him. And I guess that's my point with Bailey. He gets a lot of accolades but at the end of the day teams are not afraid to go after him, especially deep. Deion got more respect than Champ from opposing coordinators because he was a better cover corner. Champ is a better tackler than Deion, but so is most of the league.

I'm a Broncos homer, although I also become fans of certain players. I have to admit that I never paid much attention to Bailey before he came to Denver, but now that he's on my radar, I'm a Champ Bailey fan. He could go to the Oakland Raiders and I'd still be a Champ Bailey fan. He's got everything going for him. He's more talented than anyone else, but he still works harder than everyone else, too. He's proud and competitive, but he's still gracious and generous with praise. He's got a killer instinct that I've never seen before (of Bailey's 10 INTs, iirc, 7 of them came inside the 5-yard line and were complete drive-killers, while an 8th was returned for a TD). Plus, he's not a prima donna- he'll roll up his sleeves and do whatever it takes to get a W, including tackling. Oh, and he's got one of the most absurd recovery rates ever. Plus, he played pretty much the entire 2005 season with nagging hamstring injuries and his arm in a sling (he was literally unable to raise his arm above his head), and yet he still tackled without hesitation and was second in the league in INTs (again- he couldn't raise his arm above his head!)Anyway, the play against Chad Johnson was definitely offensive pass interference. It wasn't that Bailey was physically dominated, it's that defensive players aren't allowed to lay a hand on offensive players while the ball is in the air, so there was absolutely no way that Bailey could have prevented Chad Johnson from using him as a highly-paid pommel horse while he went up for the ball. There was no way that Bailey could have defended that play (short of, ironically, falling down again, maybe). Dwight Freeney would be given a pass if he was getting held on every single play, but for some reason people won't give Champ Bailey a pass for a play where he was positively mauled and no penalty was called.

As for the Chargers, Seahawks, and Rams games... I'd suggest you refresh your memory of those games. In the Rams game, Bailey didn't allow a completion of more than 8 yards (he only allowed one completion that resulted in a 1st down), and took down Steven Jackson in the open field time and time again (something that most linebackers struggle with). In the first San Diego game, he was involved in the following plays:

3-8-DEN40 (8:48) (Shotgun) P.Rivers pass incomplete short middle to V.Jackson (C.Bailey) [i.Gold].

3-3-SD43 (6:49) P.Rivers pass incomplete deep right to V.Jackson (C.Cox, C.Bailey).

1-10-SD41 (5:34) P.Rivers pass incomplete deep middle to K.McCardell (C.Bailey).

1-10-SD20 (10:48) P.Rivers pass short right to A.Gates to SD 19 for -1 yards (C.Bailey).

1-10-DEN35 (6:23) P.Rivers pass short left to E.Parker to DEN 20 for 15 yards (C.Bailey).

1-10-SD42 (4:41) (Shotgun) P.Rivers pass incomplete short right to M.Floyd (C.Bailey).

2-10-SD42 (4:38) (Shotgun) P.Rivers pass short right to M.Floyd to SD 49 for 7 yards (C.Bailey).

That's 7 passes for 21 yards (3 per attempt)- hardly an example of the offense doing well against him. In the second SD game, the play-by-play lists Bailey as the defender in coverage on two passes- again, hardly an example of an offense showing Bailey who was boss.

Against Seattle, he was involved in the following plays

1-15-SEA47 (1:27) M.Hasselbeck pass short right to J.Stevens to DEN 47 for 6 yards (C.Bailey).

1-10-DEN27 (11:41) S.Alexander right end to DEN 25 for 2 yards (C.Bailey).

2-8-DEN25 (11:04) S.Alexander right end to DEN 22 for 3 yards (C.Bailey).

1-10-SEA46 (10:46) M.Hasselbeck pass short right to N.Burleson to DEN 47 for 7 yards (C.Bailey; J.Lynch).

1-10-DEN40 (3:20) M.Hasselbeck pass deep right intended for D.Jackson INTERCEPTED by C.Bailey at DEN 0. Touchback.

1-10-SEA39 (9:42) M.Hasselbeck pass deep middle to D.Jackson to DEN 34 for 27 yards (C.Bailey).

1-10-SEA14 (2:31) M.Hasselbeck pass short right to J.Stevens to SEA 20 for 6 yards (C.Bailey, DJ.Williams).

3-4-SEA20 (1:56) M.Hasselbeck pass deep right to N.Burleson to SEA 36 for 16 yards (C.Bailey).

That's a bunch of dink-and-dunk, mixed in with two long pass completions and an interception in the end zone. That's 62 yards allowed through the air and a drive-killing INT. Bailey's "bad days" are better than most CBs "good days".

As for teams not being afraid to test Champ Bailey deep... that may well be true, but if it is, it only proves how stupid some teams are. Champ Bailey allowed the lowest YPA against in the entire NFL, so teams were testing him deep, but they weren't beating him deep. In fact, based on his 10 INTs, I'd venture that Champ Bailey was more likely to beat an offense deep than he was to get beaten deep. Most of the yardage against Bailey last year was simple dink-and-dunk stuff, plays where Champ Bailey played off a little bit and allowed the underneath stuff (things like a 4-yard completion on 1st and 10). I also read somewhere (I believe it was either Football Outsiders or KC Joyner, since they're the only ones I know of that chart every play a CB is involved in) that Bailey did not allow a TD all season. Think about it- Champ Bailey was targeted inside the 5-yard line multiple times all season. In all of those times, he came down with the ball 7 or 8 times, and the opposing WR didn't come down with it once. Unreal. He also has 18 INTs in the last two seasons. There isn't a single CB in the HoF with 18 INTs over a 2-season span. There hasn't been a single CB in the past 25 years with 18 INTs over a 2-year span.

As for teams not being afraid to test Champ Bailey... against New England, Bailey was targeted twice, and Williams/Foxworth combined for 16 targets. Against Arizona, Leinart threw 35 passes, but only two went within 5 yards of Champ Bailey (incidentally, both were intercepted). Seriously, last year was a season for the ages for Champ Bailey. Jason Taylor had the kind of season that an LB/DE might put up once in a decade, while Champ Bailey put up the type of season that a CB might have once every generation, if that.

Plus, think of it this way. Name one other position in the entire NFL where 99.99% of the people agree on who is the best player at that position, and that there's really no argument. Really, the only such position is RB, where everyone knows that LT is the best in the business. Everyone recognizes just how far ahead of his peers Tomlinson is, yet people seem to get a little offended if we talk about just how far ahead of his peers Champ Bailey really is.

As I said, Champ Bailey hasn't been this dominant for a long enough period of time to really be considered the GOAT yet, but he's definitely in the discussion, and with another 2 years like the last 2 years, I think the title's his.

 

[Tubalcane]

For more info on Chad Johnson vs. Champ Bailey see last years match up where Champ owned him the whole game. OWNED.....................

Let me repeat...

OWNED.....................

I remember he picked one off and grabbed one fumble from Chad. Chad looked like he just quit trying towards the end of that game.

And also I remember that game in Cincy a few years ago. At the end of the game when they interviewed Chad he said that he tried every trick he had in the book against Champ, and as the game went on Champ just covered him tighter. That's the one game I can remember Chad Johnson not talking any smack.

Champ fell down three times in that game...sounds more like he had the wrong cleats for that field more than anything else.

 

[dparker713]

To those who think Deion was significantly overrated, are you aware that he was Defensive Player of the Year in 1994? Since 1971, when the award started, only 4 CBs have won DPOY - Blount, Hayes, Woodson, and Sanders each won once. Were the voters wrong to select him?And what about All Pro selections? Deion was All Pro 6 times as a CB (and 2 other times as a kick returner). Were the voters wrong? How many other CBs have as many selections? Are there any? (I don't know the answer and can't find a reliable internet source with total selections.) Deion played at the same time as Woodson and Darrell Green and still earned those 6 selections. Champ has only made it 3 times, despite the fact that his contemporaries at CB are relatively weaker.

The voters are often wrong, and sometimes those selections happen out of habit, reputation or default. On the whole, Deion received more positive attention then he deserved for his play on the field.

Even if there is a margin of error here, why would that margin of error have affected Deion disproportionately? I showed a list of the great CBs named in this thread and how many All Pros each had/have. If it is true that Deion was overselected out of habit, reputation, or default, then isn't it likely to have happened with the others as well? In which case, Deion still has an edge there.Aside from that, beyond statistics, there isn't much evidence to go on besides awards and honors. Deion was chosen for more awards and honors than any other CB as far as I can tell. And my own feeling from watching him play is that those awards and honors were deserved.

Self promotion followed by ESPN promotion. These awards are all based on perception as much as anything. A perfect parallel are gold gloves in the MLB. There is no possible way that Derek Jeter should have 1 gold glove. But when his best plays are replayd over and over on Sportscenter, people become oblivious to his lack of range and arm. With Deion, people would see his returns on both INTs and punts and then pundits like Madden and Berman would heap praise on him. Then Deion would be interviewed and he'd heap praise upon himself. Every defense of Deion is always 'beyond statistics', because the hype surrounding him enhanced his great plays and obscured his bad plays. Sure teams were afraid to go deep on Deion, but they weren't afraid to throw short, and they certainly werent afraid to run at him. He's an inherently flawed great player that has received more acclaim than deserved because he worked the media so well.

 

[Tau837]

To those who think Deion was significantly overrated, are you aware that he was Defensive Player of the Year in 1994? Since 1971, when the award started, only 4 CBs have won DPOY - Blount, Hayes, Woodson, and Sanders each won once. Were the voters wrong to select him?And what about All Pro selections? Deion was All Pro 6 times as a CB (and 2 other times as a kick returner). Were the voters wrong? How many other CBs have as many selections? Are there any? (I don't know the answer and can't find a reliable internet source with total selections.) Deion played at the same time as Woodson and Darrell Green and still earned those 6 selections. Champ has only made it 3 times, despite the fact that his contemporaries at CB are relatively weaker.

The voters are often wrong, and sometimes those selections happen out of habit, reputation or default. On the whole, Deion received more positive attention then he deserved for his play on the field.

Even if there is a margin of error here, why would that margin of error have affected Deion disproportionately? I showed a list of the great CBs named in this thread and how many All Pros each had/have. If it is true that Deion was overselected out of habit, reputation, or default, then isn't it likely to have happened with the others as well? In which case, Deion still has an edge there.Aside from that, beyond statistics, there isn't much evidence to go on besides awards and honors. Deion was chosen for more awards and honors than any other CB as far as I can tell. And my own feeling from watching him play is that those awards and honors were deserved.

Self promotion followed by ESPN promotion. These awards are all based on perception as much as anything. A perfect parallel are gold gloves in the MLB. There is no possible way that Derek Jeter should have 1 gold glove. But when his best plays are replayd over and over on Sportscenter, people become oblivious to his lack of range and arm. With Deion, people would see his returns on both INTs and punts and then pundits like Madden and Berman would heap praise on him. Then Deion would be interviewed and he'd heap praise upon himself. Every defense of Deion is always 'beyond statistics', because the hype surrounding him enhanced his great plays and obscured his bad plays. Sure teams were afraid to go deep on Deion, but they weren't afraid to throw short, and they certainly werent afraid to run at him. He's an inherently flawed great player that has received more acclaim than deserved because he worked the media so well.

I disagree. How many of his All Pros do you think are undeserved? And how many for the other great CBs, who also built up great reputations during their careers?

 

[Colin Dowling]

"No."

 

[sholditch]

Wouldn't number of times thrown against be the ultimate barometer or how feared a corner is by opposing defenses? What corner (lat's assume starting a minimum of 48 games (three full seasons) has the lowest times thrown against average. I think that would at least tell you the corner that opposing OCs and QBs feared the most.

 

[massraider]

"No."

Quoted for truth.In reading the comments about Deion and his being 'overrated', I am reminded of a quote by some writer about our former Vice President:"Just because everyone says Dan Quayle is stupid, doesn't mean he isn't."And what I mean by that is that, in regards to Deion Sanders, sometimes the hype-masters are dead on. And it certainly isn't like the coaches were singing a different tune. Every coach Deion had talked about how he made the entire defense better, because they were constantly able to essentially ignore the WR on his side of the field. Yes, the whole "half the field" nonsense is hyperbole, but in football so is the term "shutdown corner", and "genius". And there were certainly QBs that thought twice about even looking to the left side.There were certainly CBs that forced the run better than Deion, Woodson, Haynes, and Bailey.I say, so what? That's like complaining about Shaquillle's free throw percentage, or Larry Johnson's blocking. Mel Blount is before my time, as is Haynes. But I have never seen a CB that had the impact Deion had, year in and year out. He was the fastest guy on the field, and was a freak that had to be accounted for, from his first game. You have to include his return abilities as a CB, because that was part of the fear. Not that he would just blanket your guy, and maybe even intercept the ball, but that you'd have to watch him high step down the field for 6 points. This is how dangerous Deion was: There were times that Deion's teaqmmates would intercept a ball, and you'd see them frantically look around, to lateral it to Deion. They were looking for him. I've never seen that with another player.

 

[sholditch]

"No."

Quoted for truth.In reading the comments about Deion and his being 'overrated', I am reminded of a quote by some writer about our former Vice President:"Just because everyone says Dan Quayle is stupid, doesn't mean he isn't."And what I mean by that is that, in regards to Deion Sanders, sometimes the hype-masters are dead on. And it certainly isn't like the coaches were singing a different tune. Every coach Deion had talked about how he made the entire defense better, because they were constantly able to essentially ignore the WR on his side of the field. Yes, the whole "half the field" nonsense is hyperbole, but in football so is the term "shutdown corner", and "genius". And there were certainly QBs that thought twice about even looking to the left side.There were certainly CBs that forced the run better than Deion, Woodson, Haynes, and Bailey.I say, so what? That's like complaining about Shaquillle's free throw percentage, or Larry Johnson's blocking. Mel Blount is before my time, as is Haynes. But I have never seen a CB that had the impact Deion had, year in and year out. He was the fastest guy on the field, and was a freak that had to be accounted for, from his first game. You have to include his return abilities as a CB, because that was part of the fear. Not that he would just blanket your guy, and maybe even intercept the ball, but that you'd have to watch him high step down the field for 6 points. This is how dangerous Deion was: There were times that Deion's teaqmmates would intercept a ball, and you'd see them frantically look around, to lateral it to Deion. They were looking for him. I've never seen that with another player.

 

[Tau837]

"No."

Quoted for truth.In reading the comments about Deion and his being 'overrated', I am reminded of a quote by some writer about our former Vice President:"Just because everyone says Dan Quayle is stupid, doesn't mean he isn't."And what I mean by that is that, in regards to Deion Sanders, sometimes the hype-masters are dead on. And it certainly isn't like the coaches were singing a different tune. Every coach Deion had talked about how he made the entire defense better, because they were constantly able to essentially ignore the WR on his side of the field. Yes, the whole "half the field" nonsense is hyperbole, but in football so is the term "shutdown corner", and "genius". And there were certainly QBs that thought twice about even looking to the left side.There were certainly CBs that forced the run better than Deion, Woodson, Haynes, and Bailey.I say, so what? That's like complaining about Shaquillle's free throw percentage, or Larry Johnson's blocking. Mel Blount is before my time, as is Haynes. But I have never seen a CB that had the impact Deion had, year in and year out. He was the fastest guy on the field, and was a freak that had to be accounted for, from his first game. You have to include his return abilities as a CB, because that was part of the fear. Not that he would just blanket your guy, and maybe even intercept the ball, but that you'd have to watch him high step down the field for 6 points. This is how dangerous Deion was: There were times that Deion's teaqmmates would intercept a ball, and you'd see them frantically look around, to lateral it to Deion. They were looking for him. I've never seen that with another player.

Outstanding post.

 

[SSOG]

Wouldn't number of times thrown against be the ultimate barometer or how feared a corner is by opposing defenses? What corner (lat's assume starting a minimum of 48 games (three full seasons) has the lowest times thrown against average. I think that would at least tell you the corner that opposing OCs and QBs feared the most.

Not in the slightest- it would just tell you which CB played with the worst second CB. I mean, if you lined up Deion Sanders and Champ Bailey in the same secondary, they'd both be targeted a lot, just because who'd avoid them to go at the second guy? On the other hand, you could line up Chris McAllister with Duane Starks and he'd be invisible... because who would want to throw at McAllister when Duane Starks was on the field? Would that make McAllister the most feared CB of all time?Likewise, it depends on the coverage. If Deion Sanders played primarily against #2 WRs as people are saying, then even if he and Champ Bailey were equally feared, Bailey would be targeted more, because he's playing primarily against #1s. Would you rather test the opposing elite CB with Steve Smith or Drew Carter? Then, too, it's a comment on what type of coverage the defense is running. Where the safeties are, where the WRs are lined up, where the LBs are, whether you're in a Zone or a Man coverage... all of these things will impact how often a CB is targeted, too. And there's the passrush, as well- if a defense can't mount any pressure, there's not a CB who ever lived who could consistently cover for 6+ seconds on every play.

 

[Tau837]

Wouldn't number of times thrown against be the ultimate barometer or how feared a corner is by opposing defenses? What corner (lat's assume starting a minimum of 48 games (three full seasons) has the lowest times thrown against average. I think that would at least tell you the corner that opposing OCs and QBs feared the most.

Not in the slightest- it would just tell you which CB played with the worst second CB. I mean, if you lined up Deion Sanders and Champ Bailey in the same secondary, they'd both be targeted a lot, just because who'd avoid them to go at the second guy? On the other hand, you could line up Chris McAllister with Duane Starks and he'd be invisible... because who would want to throw at McAllister when Duane Starks was on the field? Would that make McAllister the most feared CB of all time?Likewise, it depends on the coverage. If Deion Sanders played primarily against #2 WRs as people are saying, then even if he and Champ Bailey were equally feared, Bailey would be targeted more, because he's playing primarily against #1s. Would you rather test the opposing elite CB with Steve Smith or Drew Carter? Then, too, it's a comment on what type of coverage the defense is running. Where the safeties are, where the WRs are lined up, where the LBs are, whether you're in a Zone or a Man coverage... all of these things will impact how often a CB is targeted, too. And there's the passrush, as well- if a defense can't mount any pressure, there's not a CB who ever lived who could consistently cover for 6+ seconds on every play.

Agree, and also consider that if the running game is bad enough (think Indy much of last year) there may be no need for opponents to throw a lot.

 

[SSOG]

Wouldn't number of times thrown against be the ultimate barometer or how feared a corner is by opposing defenses? What corner (lat's assume starting a minimum of 48 games (three full seasons) has the lowest times thrown against average. I think that would at least tell you the corner that opposing OCs and QBs feared the most.

Not in the slightest- it would just tell you which CB played with the worst second CB. I mean, if you lined up Deion Sanders and Champ Bailey in the same secondary, they'd both be targeted a lot, just because who'd avoid them to go at the second guy? On the other hand, you could line up Chris McAllister with Duane Starks and he'd be invisible... because who would want to throw at McAllister when Duane Starks was on the field? Would that make McAllister the most feared CB of all time?Likewise, it depends on the coverage. If Deion Sanders played primarily against #2 WRs as people are saying, then even if he and Champ Bailey were equally feared, Bailey would be targeted more, because he's playing primarily against #1s. Would you rather test the opposing elite CB with Steve Smith or Drew Carter? Then, too, it's a comment on what type of coverage the defense is running. Where the safeties are, where the WRs are lined up, where the LBs are, whether you're in a Zone or a Man coverage... all of these things will impact how often a CB is targeted, too. And there's the passrush, as well- if a defense can't mount any pressure, there's not a CB who ever lived who could consistently cover for 6+ seconds on every play.

Agree, and also consider that if the running game is bad enough (think Indy much of last year) there may be no need for opponents to throw a lot.

Or if the offense is horrible, opposing teams are going to spend all day running out the clock, and if the offense is amazing, opposing teams are going to be throwing all day long to catch up. Part of the reason why Bailey was so targeted in 2005 wasn't because he wasn't feared (although when he first came back from the injuries, teams thought they could definitely attack him without repercussions), it's because Denver led pretty much every game after week 1 for pretty much the entire game. Denver faced 344 rushing attempts and 613 passing attempts- far and away the largest disparity in the league.