massraider
Footballguy
Saying he should get it because of what the Hall of Fame is technically called is the definition of a stupid, pointless, semantics argument.
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Is Doug Flutie a Hall of Famer? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ghost Rider
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Last time we had the Flutie/HOF debate on these boards, I went to the Pro Football Hall of Fame's website and (unless my memory is off) found a quote stating that its name was due to including the AFL. There's even one player in the HOF who played his whole career in the AFL rather than the NFL. (There are a bunch more who played part of their careers in the AFL before joining the NFL.)If someone can find the old thread, it should be in there.
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Del Griffith
Footballguy
Moon's in this year:HOF Player Bio - Warren MoonWarren Moon's first year of eligibility is 2006, since he last played in the 2000 season. He will be in, but he will make it based on his NFL accomplishments. He is in the top 5 all time (for the NFL/AFL) in pass attempts, completions, passing yards, and passing TDs. And he made 9 Pro Bowls.None of this has anything to do with Doug Flutie, who has no chance of making it... since it is the NFL/AFL Hall of Fame.If that's the case, then why the hell isn't Warren Moon in there yet? Puhlease.... Or Joe Theisman as in Heisman?Haven't we been over this a thousand times?
if there was a hall of overrated egotistical midget QBs with weak arms who trash their teammate and only care about self promotion above all else, then I'd definitely vote Flutie in on the first ballot.
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I would side with Flutie over Rob Johnson in their spat. I think Flutie's reputation as a team player who got along with all his teammates everywhere besides Buffalo bears that out.(It was funny when he came to San Diego how many comments I saw on this message board worrying that there's no way Flutie would get along with Brees if Brees ever became the starter. The opposite was true. They were best friends, and Flutie had no problem playing behind someone he respected.)
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he was a team cancer in Buffalo and I will always hate him for it.he explained it away by saying it was because he didn't like or respect Rob Johnson, but I don't think that excuses what he did.
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Not sure I can think of another NFL player I hate more than Doug Flutie.
none of those guys ever tried to sabotage my favorite teamT.O., Romo, Michael Westbrook, Albert Connell, Lawrence Phillips?I can think of a bunch myself.
Tick
Footballguy
I lived in Rochester when it happened... Flutie sure seemed to be the bad guy.none of those guys ever tried to sabotage my favorite teamT.O., Romo, Michael Westbrook, Albert Connell, Lawrence Phillips?I can think of a bunch myself.
Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
He won't get in. He probably shouldn't. HOWEVER, I think you can make something of a case for him.
If you look at the Hall as the best players who ever played the game, period - he has no chance.
But if you have room in your Hall of fame for guys with very good and extremely INTERESTING careers, why not a spot for Flutie? There is noone even REMOTELY like Flutie in the NFL and there never will be again. The guy is listed as 5'10" but he is NOT 5'10" tall. He is listed as 180 pounds and I doubt that he is that either. In the modern NFL, that is unheard of. His game was not always pretty, but always exciting and usually effective. Also, I can't think of anyone else who washed out of the NFL after 4 years, took a freaking 9 YEAR hiatus, and then came back and essentially had a second NFL career. And sure, throw in the drop-kick. Only Flutie would do something that bonkers. The guy is a truly remarkable athlete and he showed it in the NFL.
And all of that is NFL only. Now throw in the CFL stuff where he is probably the best player EVER in a game a little more suited to his talents, and you have a case. Maybe not a great case, but a case.
If I'm a sports writer, on a funky day I might throw the guy a bone. Sure, your Elways, your Montanas, your Marinos, your Aikmans etc. (to go with the recent guys) had MUCH better careers, but I'm not sure they were that much more interesting. If I'm visiting the Hall as a FAN, I'm going to take a long look at Flutie Flake's area.
If you look at the Hall as the best players who ever played the game, period - he has no chance.
But if you have room in your Hall of fame for guys with very good and extremely INTERESTING careers, why not a spot for Flutie? There is noone even REMOTELY like Flutie in the NFL and there never will be again. The guy is listed as 5'10" but he is NOT 5'10" tall. He is listed as 180 pounds and I doubt that he is that either. In the modern NFL, that is unheard of. His game was not always pretty, but always exciting and usually effective. Also, I can't think of anyone else who washed out of the NFL after 4 years, took a freaking 9 YEAR hiatus, and then came back and essentially had a second NFL career. And sure, throw in the drop-kick. Only Flutie would do something that bonkers. The guy is a truly remarkable athlete and he showed it in the NFL.
And all of that is NFL only. Now throw in the CFL stuff where he is probably the best player EVER in a game a little more suited to his talents, and you have a case. Maybe not a great case, but a case.
If I'm a sports writer, on a funky day I might throw the guy a bone. Sure, your Elways, your Montanas, your Marinos, your Aikmans etc. (to go with the recent guys) had MUCH better careers, but I'm not sure they were that much more interesting. If I'm visiting the Hall as a FAN, I'm going to take a long look at Flutie Flake's area.
Tau837
Footballguy
Yes, of course. If you'll notice, my post was on January 2, long before it was known that he would be elected this year. And I did predict he would make it. And my main point was to say that Moon's case has nothing to do with Flutie, since Moon dominated in the NFL and Flutie didn't.Moon's in this year:HOF Player Bio - Warren MoonWarren Moon's first year of eligibility is 2006, since he last played in the 2000 season. He will be in, but he will make it based on his NFL accomplishments. He is in the top 5 all time (for the NFL/AFL) in pass attempts, completions, passing yards, and passing TDs. And he made 9 Pro Bowls.None of this has anything to do with Doug Flutie, who has no chance of making it... since it is the NFL/AFL Hall of Fame.If that's the case, then why the hell isn't Warren Moon in there yet? Puhlease.... Or Joe Theisman as in Heisman?Haven't we been over this a thousand times?
Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
Has there ever been a case where a minor league baseball player dominated the league for 9 straight years without being called up?This is equivalent to saying a baseball player who dominated the minor leagues but was below average in the majors should get into the MLB HOF based on his minor league success.
Don't think those situations are as analogous as you portray them to be. That said, the CFL isn't the NFL, no doubt about that. But again, the major portion of my post concerned his situation IN THE NFL.
I liked your post a lot (although I disagree with it), but the portion of your post concerning Flutie's NFL days didn't provide evidence that he was good -- just that his career was interesting.Ryan Leaf's career was fascinating in some ways.
I think the Hall of Fame should just continue to induct people who were really, really good.
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Tau837
Footballguy
You are misrepresenting what happened with Flutie. He played his first season in the USFL, then played 4 seasons in the NFL.1986 Bears:Has there ever been a case where a minor league baseball player dominated the league for 9 straight years without being called up?This is equivalent to saying a baseball player who dominated the minor leagues but was below average in the majors should get into the MLB HOF based on his minor league success.
Don't think those situations are as analogous as you portray them to be. That said, the CFL isn't the NFL, no doubt about that. But again, the major portion of my post concerned his situation IN THE NFL.
+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Name | G | CMP ATT PCT YARD Y/A TD IN | RSH YARD TD |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Doug Flutie | 4 | 23 46 50.0 361 7.8 3 2 | 9 36 1 || Steve Fuller | 16 | 34 64 53.1 451 7.0 2 4 | 8 30 0 || Jim McMahon | 6 | 77 150 51.3 995 6.6 5 8 | 22 152 1 || Mike Tomczak | 13 | 74 151 49.0 1105 7.3 2 10 | 23 117 3 |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+1987 Bears & Pats:
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+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Name | G | CMP ATT PCT YARD Y/A TD IN | RSH YARD TD |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Doug Flutie | 1 | 0 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 | 0 0 0 || Jim Harbaugh | 6 | 8 11 72.7 62 5.6 0 0 | 4 15 0 || Jim McMahon | 7 | 125 210 59.5 1639 7.8 12 8 | 22 88 2 || Mike Tomczak | 12 | 97 178 54.5 1220 6.9 5 10 | 18 54 1 |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------++----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Name | G | CMP ATT PCT YARD Y/A TD IN | RSH YARD TD |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Tony Eason | 4 | 42 79 53.2 453 5.7 3 2 | 3 25 0 || Doug Flutie | 1 | 15 25 60.0 199 8.0 1 0 | 6 43 0 || Steve Grogan | 7 | 93 161 57.8 1183 7.3 10 9 | 20 37 2 || Tom Ramsey | 9 | 71 134 53.0 898 6.7 6 6 | 13 75 1 |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+
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+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Name | G | CMP ATT PCT YARD Y/A TD IN | RSH YARD TD |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Tony Eason | 2 | 28 43 65.1 249 5.8 0 2 | 5 18 0 || Doug Flutie | 11 | 92 179 51.4 1150 6.4 8 10 | 38 179 1 || Steve Grogan | 6 | 67 140 47.9 834 6.0 4 13 | 6 12 1 || Tom Ramsey | 7 | 12 27 44.4 100 3.7 0 3 | 3 8 0 |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+
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+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Name | G | CMP ATT PCT YARD Y/A TD IN | RSH YARD TD |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+| Tony Eason | 3 | 57 105 54.3 761 7.2 3 4 | 2 -2 0 || Doug Flutie | 5 | 36 91 39.6 493 5.4 2 4 | 16 87 0 || Steve Grogan | 7 | 133 261 51.0 1697 6.5 9 14 | 9 19 0 || Marc Wilson | 14 | 75 150 50.0 1006 6.7 3 5 | 7 42 0 |+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+IMO those 4 years are what caused the NFL to resist bringing him back during the next 9 years, when he dominated in the CFL. To suggest that he was never "called up" is not factual. The fact is, he flopped the first time, and NFL GMs have long memories, especially on guys who don't have prototypical measurables (read: height).
Flutie won't make the HOF
I had always hoped he'd go into marketting maybe even be an agent after he retires. I was a bit letdown hearing he's going to do college games on TV. I don't think any player has ever had such a broad public appeal with such low stat #s and he regularly did it. Even in New England where Brady is the golden boy, he managed that one kick which was spread on every paper across the country. Remember Flutie flakes? If I'm not mistaken one of his children became afflicted with a disease and he raised a ton of money for a charity to find a cure.
If I were a college player enterring the NFL I'd want him in charge of contracts and finding me sneaker deals and anything else he can swing.
I had always hoped he'd go into marketting maybe even be an agent after he retires. I was a bit letdown hearing he's going to do college games on TV. I don't think any player has ever had such a broad public appeal with such low stat #s and he regularly did it. Even in New England where Brady is the golden boy, he managed that one kick which was spread on every paper across the country. Remember Flutie flakes? If I'm not mistaken one of his children became afflicted with a disease and he raised a ton of money for a charity to find a cure.
If I were a college player enterring the NFL I'd want him in charge of contracts and finding me sneaker deals and anything else he can swing.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
It's Billy Shaw. The Hall of Fame opened in 1963. On June 8, 1966, the NFL and the AFL announced they planned to merge in 1970. Did the Hall of Fame anticipate voting in AFL players at the time they opened?
BigRed
Footballguy
Deion is one of the best corners to ever play the game.Sometimes I wonder if you even watch football.If Jimmy Smith and Bettis and D Sanders are, hell why not Flutie? And McCardell, and Keith Jackson, and Vinny T, and.............etc etc.....
Believe that if it makes you happy, pot.lol @ best CB to ever play the game who tackles like a girl (when he even bothered that is).
Gigantomachia
Footballguy
Uh, blind faith maybe?
Del Griffith
Footballguy
Let's get 3 things straight:
1. Doug Flutie belongs in the College Football Hall of Fame. There are no maybes, ifs, ands, ors about it. He won the Heismann, held the NCAA passing record when he finished (I don't care if 50 players have surpassed his mark, he had more than anyone ever did before him), was a first team All-American, and orchestrated the most famous play in NCAA history. He meets all of the criteria for eligibility:
Each player nominated must have: (1) received major first-team All-America recognition; (2) played his last intercollegiate game at least 10 years previously; (3) retired from playing professional football; and (4) proven himself worthy as a citizen after his football career, carrying the ideals of football forward into his community.
2. Doug Flutie belongs in the Canadian Football Hall of Fame. Eight seasons, 6 MVP awards, 3 Grey Cups. Nuff said. (I'm assuming 8 seasons qualifies for eligibility for the Canadian HOF, but I can't find the info, because their website sucks.)
3. Doug Flutie does not belong in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. There are no maybes, ifs, ands, ors about it. The intent of the Hall is to recognize greatness in the United States. I don't care what hockey or any other sports have done. He doesn't belong, and the very thought is ludicrous.
1. Doug Flutie belongs in the College Football Hall of Fame. There are no maybes, ifs, ands, ors about it. He won the Heismann, held the NCAA passing record when he finished (I don't care if 50 players have surpassed his mark, he had more than anyone ever did before him), was a first team All-American, and orchestrated the most famous play in NCAA history. He meets all of the criteria for eligibility:
Each player nominated must have: (1) received major first-team All-America recognition; (2) played his last intercollegiate game at least 10 years previously; (3) retired from playing professional football; and (4) proven himself worthy as a citizen after his football career, carrying the ideals of football forward into his community.
2. Doug Flutie belongs in the Canadian Football Hall of Fame. Eight seasons, 6 MVP awards, 3 Grey Cups. Nuff said. (I'm assuming 8 seasons qualifies for eligibility for the Canadian HOF, but I can't find the info, because their website sucks.)
3. Doug Flutie does not belong in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. There are no maybes, ifs, ands, ors about it. The intent of the Hall is to recognize greatness in the United States. I don't care what hockey or any other sports have done. He doesn't belong, and the very thought is ludicrous.
Wadsworth
Footballguy
And Marino couldn't run very well with the ball, he doesn't belong in the HoF either. Barry Sanders wasn't very good at short yardage, keep him out.Deion is one of the best corners to ever play the game.Sometimes I wonder if you even watch football.If Jimmy Smith and Bettis and D Sanders are, hell why not Flutie? And McCardell, and Keith Jackson, and Vinny T, and.............etc etc.....
lol @ best CB to ever play the game who tackles like a girl (when he even bothered that is).
Randy Moss isn't much of a blocker, no way he gets in.
Capella
Footballguy
So you don't watch football?Deion is one of the best corners to ever play the game.Sometimes I wonder if you even watch football.If Jimmy Smith and Bettis and D Sanders are, hell why not Flutie? And McCardell, and Keith Jackson, and Vinny T, and.............etc etc.....
lol @ best CB to ever play the game who tackles like a girl (when he even bothered that is).
Are you kidding?Deion is one of the best corners to ever play the game.Sometimes I wonder if you even watch football.If Jimmy Smith and Bettis and D Sanders are, hell why not Flutie? And McCardell, and Keith Jackson, and Vinny T, and.............etc etc.....
lol @ best CB to ever play the game who tackles like a girl (when he even bothered that is).
He's a lock for the HOF, he's one of the best CBs to ever play. He went up against the best WRs, and after awhile teams just stopped throwing to his side. Tackles like a girl? Luckily he dances like a girl when scores all those TDs.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
To the Pro Football Hall of Fame....yes.
He has been an MVP for 6 years and tore up the CFL. Name another player in Pro Football that has 6 MVPs?
He has been an MVP for 6 years and tore up the CFL. Name another player in Pro Football that has 6 MVPs?
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
The Pro Football Hall of Fame is for all PRO Football....not just the NFL. Many of Warren Moon's accolades when entering the HoF were related to the CFL.
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fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
Warren Moon
I believe both Peter King and Dr. Z said Moon got in based on the strength of his NFL accomplishments. CFL stats can be taken into account but will likely not be weighed very heavily given the level of competition is much, much weaker than that found in the NFL.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
You don't think 6 MVPs in a professional football league for Flutie are good enough?
not if the level of competition there is roughly equivalent to that in minor league baseball.you don't see baseball players or hockey players making the hall of fame based on their accomplishments in the minor leagues, even though those are also considered "professional" leagues.
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fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
But I wouldn't think that there is any player in any minor league that has the stats and accolades like Flutie does.
b/c if they are good enough, they usually get called up to the bigs. Flutie was great in the CFL and will certainly make their hall of fame. But, he does not deserve consideration for the HOF in Ohio.I watched every game he played in Buffalo where he had most of his NFL success and I never once thought "wow, this is a HOF QB right here".
he played 13 seasons in the NFL and only had 1 great season in 1998. That was the only time he made the Pro Bowl.
if 12 of your 13 seasons in the NFL are mediocre or worse, you don't belong in the hall of fame. it's not like he only spent a few seasons in the NFL either. 13 seasons is plenty, and he proved he could not succeed at that level of competition over a long period of time.
Here is Warren Moon's biography from his HOF member profile in full:
Also check out the Staticstics, Career Highlights, and Career Capsule sections.We can argue over what qualifies as "many," but his CFL achievements seem rather de-emphasized, IMO.
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