Is Shohei Ohtani the greatest baseball player of all time? (2 Viewers)

[timschochet]

It’s a question, not a statement. But I think it’s a legitimate question at this point. Certainly I will say that THIS statement is true: his last appearance (6 shutout innings, 3 home runs) is the greatest single performance ever in MLB history.

 

[timschochet]

Here’s some thoughts from baseball “experts”

Is Shohei Ohtani the greatest baseball player ever? What the experts say:

After Shohei Ohtani’s Game 4 performance in the 2025 National League Championship Series, in which he was named MVP after a historic and unprecedented showing at the plate and on the mound, m…

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A few reporters say yes. Derek Jeter says hold on, he’s still too young (Ohtani is 31.)

 

[dutch]

He's a unicorn and I'm glad to be alive while he's playing. We're seeing something we will never see again and only those who saw Babe's whole career ever saw anything close. Ohtani doesn't have the career numbers yet but if he stays on track he'll be damn near the top in about five years.

 

[dutch]

It’s a question, not a statement. But I think it’s a legitimate question at this point. Certainly I will say that THIS statement is true: his last appearance (6 shutout innings, 3 home runs) is the greatest single performance ever in MLB history.

with 10 k's

 

[dutch]

Eesh, didn't realize he's already 31. Hope he stays peak for a few seasons.

 

[bryhamm]

If not, he's gotta be in the top 5.

 

[timschochet]

We're seeing something we will never see again

This is an interesting question. I’ve been wondering if Ohtani’s success won’t cause more young baseball players to decide that they don’t need to choose between pitching and batting, they can do both. Why not?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Yes!

 

[Zow]

I do believe that was the greatest single game performance.

I still maintain nonetheless that Ruth is #1.* He pitched and literally out-homered teams. Steroids Bonds was the greatest hitter ever. Griffey, Speaker, or Mays were the greatest hitter/fielders ever. Hank Aaron for longevity and consistency.

*Not coincidentally, to me Ohtani is the modern day Ruth.

 

[timschochet]

*Not coincidentally, to me Ohtani is the modern day Ruth.

People keep saying this but he really isn’t.

Ruth had a career as an elite pitcher (one of the best of his era but not quite hall of fame level) and then a second career as probably the greatest power hitter of all time. But the two careers don’t really coincide.

 

[timschochet]

Ohtani on the other hand is a very good pitcher and a very good power hitter. He is not the best at either (unlike Ruth who was clearly the best power hitter of the 1920s and probably ever) but he is the only person in history to be both at the same time.

 

[Runkle]

Only needs to deliver on longevity.

 

[jamny]

I believe we are witnessing what will be the greatest player of all time. He's very close to being there already.

 

[Don Quixote]

I think Jeter’s closer to right with greatest toolset. That was greatest single game I ever watched, but greatest player ever is more a career long metric.

I’m not sure how much WAR is good for. 51.5 over 8 seasons is great, but also not excessively high. He’s only had one season where he received Cy Young votes. Ruth had a higher career pitching WAR than Ohtani has so far. So, the pitching is an added element on top of the bat, but I don’t think he’s ace-level elite.

He’s 31 and already had a number of pitching injuries, and they may decide to just focus on his bat in a couple of years to avoid another injury pitching that knocks him out for an extended period of time again. Will need to see if he can keep it up.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

He’s the best I’ve seen play

 

[Cowboysfan8]

I still maintain nonetheless that Ruth is #1.* He pitched and literally out-homered teams.

How many stolen bases?

 

[bryhamm]

He’s the best I’ve seen play

/royhobbs

 

[Eephus]

I still maintain nonetheless that Ruth is #1.* He pitched and literally out-homered teams.

How many stolen bases?

How many hot dogs can Ohtani eat?

 

[Spartans Rule]

We're seeing something we will never see again

This is an interesting question. I’ve been wondering if Ohtani’s success won’t cause more young baseball players to decide that they don’t need to choose between pitching and batting, they can do both. Why not?

A few other players have tried recently but they usually decide to focus on one or the other pretty early on in the minors. Hunter Greene and Masyn Winn were a couple notables. There’s a Japanese teenager in the A’s system named Shotaro Morii trying to be the next Ohtani but the early returns don’t suggest he’s that good.

MLB teams seem open enough to the idea that we may see another two-way star at some point but the talent bar required to pull it off is really high.

 

[Eephus]

We're seeing something we will never see again

This is an interesting question. I’ve been wondering if Ohtani’s success won’t cause more young baseball players to decide that they don’t need to choose between pitching and batting, they can do both. Why not?

A few other players have tried recently but they usually decide to focus on one or the other pretty early on in the minors. Hunter Greene and Masyn Winn were a couple notables. There’s a Japanese teenager in the A’s system named Shotaro Morii trying to be the next Ohtani but the early returns don’t suggest he’s that good.

MLB teams seem open enough to the idea that we may see another two-way star at some point but the talent bar required to pull it off is really high.

Jake Cronenworth pitched at the AAA level before he was traded to San Diego.

 

[TripItUp]

He's on a very short list of maybe 3 or 4 players.

Babe was a greater statistical outlier...so there is an easy statistical argument made for Babe.

That being said, impossible to compare players 100 years apart.

 

[BassNBrew]

I do believe that was the greatest single game performance.

I still maintain nonetheless that Ruth is #1.* He pitched and literally out-homered teams. Steroids Bonds was the greatest hitter ever. Griffey, Speaker, or Mays were the greatest hitter/fielders ever. Hank Aaron for longevity and consistency.

*Not coincidentally, to me Ohtani is the modern day Ruth.

Ruth played at a time when the sport didn't pay enough to draw in players not to mention blacks and hispanics weren't a factor.

 

[TripItUp]

Ohtani's WAR numbers are the best ever of the modern era.

 

[BassNBrew]

To answer Tim's question, yes.

Otani's performance the other night was basically Goose Gossage and Reggie rolled into one.

 

[TripItUp]

Ruth played at a time when the sport didn't pay enough to draw in players not to mention blacks and hispanics weren't a factor.

However, Ruth was a significantly larger statistical outlier when compared to the players of his era.

There is a strong argument for Ruth.

 

[TripItUp]

To answer Tim's question, yes.

Otani's performance the other night was basically Goose Gossage and Reggie rolled into one.

not to nitpick, but Tim asked about the best player ever, not the best game ever.

 

[Eephus]

To answer Tim's question, yes.

Otani's performance the other night was basically Goose Gossage and Reggie rolled into one.

Goose still thinks all players were better when he played

 

[Cowboysfan8]

the players of his era

Plumbers and roofers

 

[TripItUp]

Goose still thinks all players were better when he played

My dad ran around with Goose. I've met him. He was quite the character.

 

[BassNBrew]

To answer Tim's question, yes.

Otani's performance the other night was basically Goose Gossage and Reggie rolled into one.

not to nitpick, but Tim asked about the best player ever, not the best game ever.

I realize that. Usually to be the best ever you need big/memorable moments to go along with career stats. Marino is never mentioned as best ever. That game the other night was a "Jordan" moment.

 

[titusbramble]

I think someone mapped his stats fairly accurately to Babe Ruth, and while doing that in the modern era is certainly impressive, I wouldn't call Ruth the GOAT so I can't really say the same for Ohtani either

 

[Spartans Rule]

I think Jeter’s closer to right with greatest toolset. That was greatest single game I ever watched, but greatest player ever is more a career long metric.

I’m not sure how much WAR is good for. 51.5 over 8 seasons is great, but also not excessively high. He’s only had one season where he received Cy Young votes. Ruth had a higher career pitching WAR than Ohtani has so far. So, the pitching is an added element on top of the bat, but I don’t think he’s ace-level elite.

He’s 31 and already had a number of pitching injuries, and they may decide to just focus on his bat in a couple of years to avoid another injury pitching that knocks him out for an extended period of time again. Will need to see if he can keep it up.

The WAR thing is interesting. Being restricted to DH hurts the offensive WAR somewhat. Theoretically he can make that back and then some through pitching, but he has to stay healthy to do it. I'm guessing he could've been a plus-glove CF if he never bothered with pitching, and he might have produced more WAR that way.

On the other hand, you can argue that the two-way brilliance we've seen from Ohtani this October can warp the odds of the postseason crapshoot in a way that no mere one-way player can, and to a contending team that's worth far more than a few extra regular-season WAR. I don't know how you quantify that, especially when comparing him to all-time greats who predate the current playoff format, but if I had to make a case for him as greatest ever I would build it around that idea.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I like that we are living in a era where you could choose 3 of the big team sports and arguably the best player ever is still active in each.

Messi, LeBron and Ohtani.

 

[titusbramble]

I like that we are living in a era where you could choose 3 of the big team sports and arguably the best player ever is still active in each.

Messi, LeBron and Ohtani.

I do wonder, at least in terms of team sports, whether we will ever see as much of an outlier as Bradman was in cricket. When we did an all time test cricket draft on another forum we deliberately limited it to players who has played from something like 1970 onwards, one so that the majority of people picking could at least have seen the players play, if only on TV/Youtube afterwards, the second so that nobody got such a huge advantage by having Bradman

 

[Ron Swanson]

Ruth is even more amazing because he played in a time of no sports training to speak of. Players these days are talented, physically gifted, and then honed even further through training, etc. And they start younger. I think the science of training will eventually begin to produce more greats that exceeds even what we are now seeing.

 

[Zow]

I still maintain nonetheless that Ruth is #1.* He pitched and literally out-homered teams.

How many stolen bases?

Hard to steal bases when you usually just get to trot around them.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

I still maintain nonetheless that Ruth is #1.* He pitched and literally out-homered teams.

How many stolen bases?

Hard to steal bases when you usually just get to trot around them.

50-50

 

[TripItUp]

I like that we are living in a era where you could choose 3 of the big team sports and arguably the best player ever is still active in each.

Messi, LeBron and Ohtani.

Oh christ....here we go with the Lebron trash.

GTFO here with Lebron as a GOAT.


P.S. Agree with Messi and Ohtani

 

[Zow]

I do believe that was the greatest single game performance.

I still maintain nonetheless that Ruth is #1.* He pitched and literally out-homered teams. Steroids Bonds was the greatest hitter ever. Griffey, Speaker, or Mays were the greatest hitter/fielders ever. Hank Aaron for longevity and consistency.

*Not coincidentally, to me Ohtani is the modern day Ruth.

Ruth played at a time when the sport didn't pay enough to draw in players not to mention blacks and hispanics weren't a factor.

True. But he also played at a time when the sports technology and, more importantly, sports science and training weren't a thing.

Really, we're comparing filet mignon with lobster here. But are great and an argument can be made that either is better.

 

[timschochet]

I like that we are living in a era where you could choose 3 of the big team sports and arguably the best player ever is still active in each.

Messi, LeBron and Ohtani.

Look you can ALWAYS make a quite reasonable argument that the best player in any sport, playing today, is the best player of all time in that sport.

For example- right now the best player in the NFL is, I believe, Patrick Mahomes. Is Patrick Mahomes the greatest player or greatest quarterback of all time? I haven’t really thought about that too much, but I wouldn’t be adverse to it. I think he’s better than Tom Brady who is often considered for that.

 

[Zow]

I like that we are living in a era where you could choose 3 of the big team sports and arguably the best player ever is still active in each.

Messi, LeBron and Ohtani.

Look you can ALWAYS make a quite reasonable argument that the best player in any sport, playing today, is the best player of all time in that sport.

For example- right now the best player in the NFL is, I believe, Patrick Mahomes. Is Patrick Mahomes the greatest player or greatest quarterback of all time? I haven’t really thought about that too much, but I wouldn’t be adverse to it. I think he’s better than Tom Brady who is often considered for that.

On that note, where you do stand on Morphy (Ruth) v. Magnus (Ohtani)?

 

[timschochet]

There is also some who argue that if 1927 era Babe Ruth were to step into a Time Machine and emerge in 2025, he would struggle in today’s game. He probably never faced a 100 mile per hour fastball (though some people speculate about Walter Johnson but that’s all it is: speculation.) Or all of the other pitches developed in the last 100 years. Or the fielding, etc.

However a friend of mine who loves baseball history really disagrees with this. His caveat is that, after Ruth emerges from the Time Machine, he then gets to spend 6 months or so learning the modern game, watching the pitches, getting himself into shape, etc. at which point he becomes the dominating player he was back in 1927. I dunno….

 

[timschochet]

I like that we are living in a era where you could choose 3 of the big team sports and arguably the best player ever is still active in each.

Messi, LeBron and Ohtani.

Look you can ALWAYS make a quite reasonable argument that the best player in any sport, playing today, is the best player of all time in that sport.

For example- right now the best player in the NFL is, I believe, Patrick Mahomes. Is Patrick Mahomes the greatest player or greatest quarterback of all time? I haven’t really thought about that too much, but I wouldn’t be adverse to it. I think he’s better than Tom Brady who is often considered for that.

On that note, where you do stand on Morphy (Ruth) v. Magnus (Ohtani)?

That’s easier. Morphy isn’t modern chess. There’s no theory to his games. Modern chess begins with Capablanca and Alekhine. Even so, Magnus would take them apart because openings are so much deeper now. Chess is a game in which the best player now is CLEARLY the best player ever in terms of matchup. Even the tenth or 20th best player now would wipe the floor with Bobby Fischer or whoever from 50 years ago.

 

[El Floppo]

We're seeing something we will never see again

This is an interesting question. I’ve been wondering if Ohtani’s success won’t cause more young baseball players to decide that they don’t need to choose between pitching and batting, they can do both. Why not?

Because each part...pitching OR batting- is freaking hard on its own. To be the best at either takes a special beast. To be arguably the best at both?

 

[Zow]

I like that we are living in a era where you could choose 3 of the big team sports and arguably the best player ever is still active in each.

Messi, LeBron and Ohtani.

Look you can ALWAYS make a quite reasonable argument that the best player in any sport, playing today, is the best player of all time in that sport.

For example- right now the best player in the NFL is, I believe, Patrick Mahomes. Is Patrick Mahomes the greatest player or greatest quarterback of all time? I haven’t really thought about that too much, but I wouldn’t be adverse to it. I think he’s better than Tom Brady who is often considered for that.

On that note, where you do stand on Morphy (Ruth) v. Magnus (Ohtani)?

That’s easier. Morphy isn’t modern chess. There’s no theory to his games. Modern chess begins with Capablanca and Alekhine. Even so, Magnus would take them apart because openings are so much deeper now. Chess is a game in which the best player now is CLEARLY the best player ever in terms of matchup. Even the tenth or 20th best player now would wipe the floor with Bobby Fischer or whoever from 50 years ago.

Do you consider Ruth modern baseball?

ETA: Morphy, similar to Ruth, just impresses the heck out of me because without really any assistance he was significantly better than his peers. Like Ruth, gun to my head I think Morphy is arguably the greatest player ever even if Magnus would go 10/10 against him in a ten game set now.

 

[Zow]

Eh, I do also think Magnus is, relatively speaking, "better" at his craft than Ohtani.

 

[timschochet]

I like that we are living in a era where you could choose 3 of the big team sports and arguably the best player ever is still active in each.

Messi, LeBron and Ohtani.

Look you can ALWAYS make a quite reasonable argument that the best player in any sport, playing today, is the best player of all time in that sport.

For example- right now the best player in the NFL is, I believe, Patrick Mahomes. Is Patrick Mahomes the greatest player or greatest quarterback of all time? I haven’t really thought about that too much, but I wouldn’t be adverse to it. I think he’s better than Tom Brady who is often considered for that.

On that note, where you do stand on Morphy (Ruth) v. Magnus (Ohtani)?

That’s easier. Morphy isn’t modern chess. There’s no theory to his games. Modern chess begins with Capablanca and Alekhine. Even so, Magnus would take them apart because openings are so much deeper now. Chess is a game in which the best player now is CLEARLY the best player ever in terms of matchup. Even the tenth or 20th best player now would wipe the floor with Bobby Fischer or whoever from 50 years ago.

Do you consider Ruth modern baseball?

ETA: Morphy, similar to Ruth, just impresses the heck out of me because without really any assistance he was significantly better than his peers. Like Ruth, gun to my head I think Morphy is arguably the greatest player ever even if Magnus would go 10/10 against him in a ten game set now.

Yes. I think modern baseball begins with Babe Ruth around 1920.

Have you heard of John Baker? He was a star third baseman for the Athletics in the 1910s. In one season he led the major leagues with a whopping 12 home runs. For that feat he received the nickname “Home Run” Baker. Then in 1920 Ruth got traded to the Yankees for a Broadway show, decided to devote himself to hitting home runs, and hit 50 his first season there. That is the start of the baseball that we know today.

 

[Zow]

I like that we are living in a era where you could choose 3 of the big team sports and arguably the best player ever is still active in each.

Messi, LeBron and Ohtani.

Look you can ALWAYS make a quite reasonable argument that the best player in any sport, playing today, is the best player of all time in that sport.

For example- right now the best player in the NFL is, I believe, Patrick Mahomes. Is Patrick Mahomes the greatest player or greatest quarterback of all time? I haven’t really thought about that too much, but I wouldn’t be adverse to it. I think he’s better than Tom Brady who is often considered for that.

On that note, where you do stand on Morphy (Ruth) v. Magnus (Ohtani)?

That’s easier. Morphy isn’t modern chess. There’s no theory to his games. Modern chess begins with Capablanca and Alekhine. Even so, Magnus would take them apart because openings are so much deeper now. Chess is a game in which the best player now is CLEARLY the best player ever in terms of matchup. Even the tenth or 20th best player now would wipe the floor with Bobby Fischer or whoever from 50 years ago.

Do you consider Ruth modern baseball?

ETA: Morphy, similar to Ruth, just impresses the heck out of me because without really any assistance he was significantly better than his peers. Like Ruth, gun to my head I think Morphy is arguably the greatest player ever even if Magnus would go 10/10 against him in a ten game set now.

Yes. I think modern baseball begins with Babe Ruth around 1920.

Have you heard of John Baker? He was a star third baseman for the Athletics in the 1910s. In one season he led the major leagues with a whopping 12 home runs. For that feat he received the nickname “Home Run” Baker. Then in 1920 Ruth got traded to the Yankees for a Broadway show, decided to devote himself to hitting home runs, and hit 50 his first season there. That is the start of the baseball that we know today.

I have.

I guess I always considered Morphy this first modern chess player simply because he was the first guy I have ever heard of that would probably eclipse a 2400 elo rating. Though, I agree with you that he was just tactically superior to his peers (like Ruth was to his) and didn't really delve into theory with his play.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

I still maintain nonetheless that Ruth is #1.* He pitched and literally out-homered teams.

How many stolen bases?

Hard to steal bases when you usually just get to trot around them.

Ruth stole home 10 times in his career.

 

[-fish-]

*Not coincidentally, to me Ohtani is the modern day Ruth.

People keep saying this but he really isn’t.

Ruth had a career as an elite pitcher (one of the best of his era but not quite hall of fame level) and then a second career as probably the greatest power hitter of all time. But the two careers don’t really coincide.

he also played in a segregated league.