Is Shohei Ohtani the greatest baseball player of all time? (10 Viewers)

[drummer]

When you surround him with a team that would break the bank of a small nation...

Edit: his post season was really *** except for game four, and Teooscar and Muncy came though, but tim doesn't watch sports, or know much about them, so you have this as a thread in the FFA.

The Dodger pitching is why they are back in the WS. If it weren't for Roberts tossing a bone to Clayton Chokeshaw in the post season, they could had posted a perfect win total despite Otahni's really poor post season stretch. He was *** this post season. The betting markets had Freeman the NLCS MVP until game four. Edman was the NLCS MVP last NLCS with Ohtani on the team. . Onve again. tim has no idea of what he is talking about.

I have no idea why you want to personally insult me.
Also, I never raised the subject of whether or not the Dodgers are a great team or if Ohtani is the reason they are a great team. So your entire response here is irrelevant.

I thought it was an interesting topic of conversation. I am certainly not the only one who has raised it. It’s all over sports talk. I thought it would be fun to get people to talk about it here. Judging by the responses I was right about that. If you disagree why bother posting?

Because you posted this after game 4 of the NLCS. A better argument would had been "Is Otahni the greatest Dodger of all time?". Because he's not the greatest baseball player of all time. He might not even be the best Dodger of all time.

And hey, you're not a victim here. You ask a question like that in any sports bar where there are fans of baseball and they would think you don't follow baseball and say it to your face.

 

[dgreen]

No chance they pitch to him in the ninth, right?

 

[SpurrierisisGod]

*Not coincidentally, to me Ohtani is the modern day Ruth.

People keep saying this but he really isn’t.

Ruth had a career as an elite pitcher (one of the best of his era but not quite hall of fame level) and then a second career as probably the greatest power hitter of all time. But the two careers don’t really coincide.

he also played in a segregated league.

And probably saw a 100mph fastball never in his career.

Gwynn is the mark ohtani needs to hit for his career numbers to be the goat. And i dont think anyone will ever come close to that. Ruth did it in a time that no one had ever seen that kind of power/pitching and half the time was facing 82mph fastballs. He was 1 of 1 in the 1920s.

Not to get into the intergenrational debate but what Gwynn did is, to me, far more unobtainable than anything ruth did.

Edit for context: Gwynn struck out only 188 times in the entire 1990s decade, while Ohtani struck out 189 times in his 2021 MVP season alone.

 

[SpurrierisisGod]

As for the vest SINGLE post season game ever? Maybe. Reggie Jackson has an argument though.

 

[Ted Stickles]

*Not coincidentally, to me Ohtani is the modern day Ruth.

People keep saying this but he really isn’t.

Ruth had a career as an elite pitcher (one of the best of his era but not quite hall of fame level) and then a second career as probably the greatest power hitter of all time. But the two careers don’t really coincide.

he also played in a segregated league.

And probably saw a 100mph fastball never in his career.

Gwynn is the mark ohtani needs to hit for his career numbers to be the goat. And i dont think anyone will ever come close to that. Ruth did it in a time that no one had ever seen that kind of power/pitching and half the time was facing 82mph fastballs. He was 1 of 1 in the 1920s.

Not to get into the intergenrational debate but what Gwynn did is, to me, far more unobtainable than anything ruth did.

Edit for context: Gwynn struck out only 188 times in the entire 1990s decade, while Ohtani struck out 189 times in his 2021 MVP season alone.

How did Tony Gywnn #19 make into this conversation? Great batting average hitter but Gywnn was one of the top All-Star hitters during the 80's/90's but so was Ryne Sandberg and Wade Boggs.

 

[drummer]

In for tim's "Is Freddie Freeman the greatest Dodger of all time?".

tim is a reason why Twitter/X was created. Because it's not a safe space for tim like the FFA is.

 

[-fish-]

*Not coincidentally, to me Ohtani is the modern day Ruth.

People keep saying this but he really isn’t.

Ruth had a career as an elite pitcher (one of the best of his era but not quite hall of fame level) and then a second career as probably the greatest power hitter of all time. But the two careers don’t really coincide.

he also played in a segregated league.

And probably saw a 100mph fastball never in his career.

Gwynn is the mark ohtani needs to hit for his career numbers to be the goat. And i dont think anyone will ever come close to that. Ruth did it in a time that no one had ever seen that kind of power/pitching and half the time was facing 82mph fastballs. He was 1 of 1 in the 1920s.

Not to get into the intergenrational debate but what Gwynn did is, to me, far more unobtainable than anything ruth did.

Edit for context: Gwynn struck out only 188 times in the entire 1990s decade, while Ohtani struck out 189 times in his 2021 MVP season alone.

How did Tony Gywnn #19 make into this conversation? Great batting average hitter but Gywnn was one of the top All-Star hitters during the 80's/90's but so was Ryne Sandberg and Wade Boggs.

Tony Gwynn may be the most overrated player of all time.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

When you surround him with a team that would break the bank of a small nation...

Edit: his post season was really *** except for game four, and Teooscar and Muncy came though, but tim doesn't watch sports, or know much about them, so you have this as a thread in the FFA.

The Dodger pitching is why they are back in the WS. If it weren't for Roberts tossing a bone to Clayton Chokeshaw in the post season, they could had posted a perfect win total despite Otahni's really poor post season stretch. He was *** this post season. The betting markets had Freeman the NLCS MVP until game four. Edman was the NLCS MVP last NLCS with Ohtani on the team. . Onve again. tim has no idea of what he is talking about.

I have no idea why you want to personally insult me.
Also, I never raised the subject of whether or not the Dodgers are a great team or if Ohtani is the reason they are a great team. So your entire response here is irrelevant.

I thought it was an interesting topic of conversation. I am certainly not the only one who has raised it. It’s all over sports talk. I thought it would be fun to get people to talk about it here. Judging by the responses I was right about that. If you disagree why bother posting?

Because you posted this after game 4 of the NLCS. A better argument would had been "Is Otahni the greatest Dodger of all time?". Because he's not the greatest baseball player of all time. He might not even be the best Dodger of all time.

And hey, you're not a victim here. You ask a question like that in any sports bar where there are fans of baseball and they would think you don't follow baseball and say it to your face.

I think someone needs to explain to you the difference between a question and an 'argument.'

From the OP "It’s a question, not a statement."

 

[belljr]

*Not coincidentally, to me Ohtani is the modern day Ruth.

People keep saying this but he really isn’t.

Ruth had a career as an elite pitcher (one of the best of his era but not quite hall of fame level) and then a second career as probably the greatest power hitter of all time. But the two careers don’t really coincide.

he also played in a segregated league.

And probably saw a 100mph fastball never in his career.

Gwynn is the mark ohtani needs to hit for his career numbers to be the goat. And i dont think anyone will ever come close to that. Ruth did it in a time that no one had ever seen that kind of power/pitching and half the time was facing 82mph fastballs. He was 1 of 1 in the 1920s.

Not to get into the intergenrational debate but what Gwynn did is, to me, far more unobtainable than anything ruth did.

Edit for context: Gwynn struck out only 188 times in the entire 1990s decade, while Ohtani struck out 189 times in his 2021 MVP season alone.

How batters did Gwynn face on the mound? HUH?!

 

[tuffnutt]

Tony Gwynn may be the most overrated player of all time.

what an incredibly bad take... the best pure hitter I ever saw.

.338 career hitter
8 batting titles
had more 4 hit games (45) than 2 strikeout games (34)
he hit .302 in two strike counts.
.331 lifetime average against hall of fame pitchers (.417 against Greg Maddox)

 

[belljr]

Lol I just realized he reached base 13 concesutive PAs

 

[rockaction]

When you surround him with a team that would break the bank of a small nation...

Edit: his post season was really *** except for game four, and Teooscar and Muncy came though, but tim doesn't watch sports, or know much about them, so you have this as a thread in the FFA.

The Dodger pitching is why they are back in the WS. If it weren't for Roberts tossing a bone to Clayton Chokeshaw in the post season, they could had posted a perfect win total despite Otahni's really poor post season stretch. He was *** this post season. The betting markets had Freeman the NLCS MVP until game four. Edman was the NLCS MVP last NLCS with Ohtani on the team. . Onve again. tim has no idea of what he is talking about.

I have no idea why you want to personally insult me.
Also, I never raised the subject of whether or not the Dodgers are a great team or if Ohtani is the reason they are a great team. So your entire response here is irrelevant.

I thought it was an interesting topic of conversation. I am certainly not the only one who has raised it. It’s all over sports talk. I thought it would be fun to get people to talk about it here. Judging by the responses I was right about that. If you disagree why bother posting?

Because you posted this after game 4 of the NLCS. A better argument would had been "Is Otahni the greatest Dodger of all time?". Because he's not the greatest baseball player of all time. He might not even be the best Dodger of all time.

And hey, you're not a victim here. You ask a question like that in any sports bar where there are fans of baseball and they would think you don't follow baseball and say it to your face.

I think someone needs to explain to you the difference between a question and an 'argument.'

From the OP "It’s a question, not a statement."

I get you and am loathe to encourage drummer, but this is tim. He often is making implicit arguments just by asking the question. It's forgivable if somebody reads into it a bit.

 

[Gally]

Edit for context: Gwynn struck out only 188 times in the entire 1990s decade, while Ohtani struck out 189 times in his 2021 MVP season alone.

This doesn't necessarily make a great baseball player. The game has changed drastically where K's aren't considered bad as the game has evolved into an all or nothing approach. What Gwynn did was amazing and he was a pure hitter but nowhere close to the best ever baseball player and hitting for average and little power. He wasn't even a huge doubles hitter (had over 30 doubles only 7 times in his career with a max of 49). Great contact hitter but doesn't belong in this conversation.

 

[Gally]

but so was Ryne Sandberg and Wade Boggs.

I am partial to Rod Carew myself. Dude stole home 17 times and tied the record with 7 in one season (and he had an 8th had they had replay review to overturn the missed call).

 

[-fish-]

Tony Gwynn may be the most overrated player of all time.

what an incredibly bad take... the best pure hitter I ever saw.

.338 career hitter
8 batting titles
had more 4 hit games (45) than 2 strikeout games (34)
he hit .302 in two strike counts.
.331 lifetime average against hall of fame pitchers (.417 against Greg Maddox)

Drove in 100 runs once in his career. Scored 100 runs twice. Top 20 all time in grounding into double plays. Refused to sacrifice average to help the team. Clogging the bases with singles and then getting doubled up does not equate to greatness.

 

[-fish-]

Tony Gwynn may be the most overrated player of all time.

what an incredibly bad take... the best pure hitter I ever saw.

.338 career hitter
8 batting titles
had more 4 hit games (45) than 2 strikeout games (34)
he hit .302 in two strike counts.
.331 lifetime average against hall of fame pitchers (.417 against Greg Maddox)

Drove in 100 runs once in his career. Scored 100 runs twice. Top 20 all time in grounding into double plays. Refused to sacrifice average to help the team. Clogging the bases with singles and then getting doubled up does not equate to greatness.

using current analytics instead of batting average, he ranks somewhere around Moises Alou.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

No. Not yet at least. He's certainly one of the top guys of this generation though.

 

[Zow]

Tony Gwynn may be the most overrated player of all time.

what an incredibly bad take... the best pure hitter I ever saw.

.338 career hitter
8 batting titles
had more 4 hit games (45) than 2 strikeout games (34)
he hit .302 in two strike counts.
.331 lifetime average against hall of fame pitchers (.417 against Greg Maddox)

Drove in 100 runs once in his career. Scored 100 runs twice. Top 20 all time in grounding into double plays. Refused to sacrifice average to help the team. Clogging the bases with singles and then getting doubled up does not equate to greatness.

using current analytics instead of batting average, he ranks somewhere around Moises Alou.

Right.

Look, I love Gwynn. As a guy that loved the game but wasn't given a ton of natural talent, Gwynn was a great role model for me as a kid and I can't imagine any team ever not wanting him on their team. His ability to put the ball in play is there with Ted Williams, and the respect the pitchers of his time had for him is a genuine joy to listen to. But let's not kid ourselves - he just didn't have the same impact on the game as the OPS leaders that lap Gwynn because of their slugging.

 

[tuffnutt]

Edit for context: Gwynn struck out only 188 times in the entire 1990s decade, while Ohtani struck out 189 times in his 2021 MVP season alone.

This doesn't necessarily make a great baseball player. The game has changed drastically where K's aren't considered bad as the game has evolved into an all or nothing approach. What Gwynn did was amazing and he was a pure hitter but nowhere close to the best ever baseball player and hitting for average and little power. He wasn't even a huge doubles hitter (had over 30 doubles only 7 times in his career with a max of 49). Great contact hitter but doesn't belong in this conversation.

I agree he doesnt need to be in the convo for best all time... but he also played in a low- power era overall. he "only" had 49 doubles as a max... but you know how many players had 50 doubles in a season in the 80s and 90s?

• Don Mattingly — 53 doubles — 1986.
• Wade Boggs — 51 doubles — 1989
• John Olerud — 54 doubles — 1993.
• Edgar Martínez — 52 doubles — 1995.
• Edgar Martínez — 52 doubles — 1996.
• Albert Belle — 52 doubles — 1995.
• Mark Grace — 51 doubles — 1995.
• Alex Rodriguez — 54 doubles — 1996.
• Mark Grudzielanek — 54 doubles — 1997
• Craig Biggio — 51 doubles — 1998.
• Craig Biggio — 56 doubles — 1999.
• Juan González — 50 doubles — 1998.

Tony Gwynn may be the most overrated player of all time.

what an incredibly bad take... the best pure hitter I ever saw.

.338 career hitter
8 batting titles
had more 4 hit games (45) than 2 strikeout games (34)
he hit .302 in two strike counts.
.331 lifetime average against hall of fame pitchers (.417 against Greg Maddox)

Drove in 100 runs once in his career. Scored 100 runs twice. Top 20 all time in grounding into double plays. Refused to sacrifice average to help the team. Clogging the bases with singles and then getting doubled up does not equate to greatness.

scoring runs and RBIs are much more team reliant... I think he's actually 33rd in GDP (I could be wrong) but the top 10 on that list? Pujols, M. Cabrera, Ripkin Jr, ivan Rodriquez, Aaron, Yazstremski, Winfield, Murray, Rice, Julio Franco. all hall of famers (or will be) except Franco

 

[tuffnutt]

Tony Gwynn may be the most overrated player of all time.

what an incredibly bad take... the best pure hitter I ever saw.

.338 career hitter
8 batting titles
had more 4 hit games (45) than 2 strikeout games (34)
he hit .302 in two strike counts.
.331 lifetime average against hall of fame pitchers (.417 against Greg Maddox)

Drove in 100 runs once in his career. Scored 100 runs twice. Top 20 all time in grounding into double plays. Refused to sacrifice average to help the team. Clogging the bases with singles and then getting doubled up does not equate to greatness.

using current analytics instead of batting average, he ranks somewhere around Moises Alou.

using current analytics like WAR is also flawed... Gywnns lifetime WAR is 69. Zack Grienke was 75... in NO world should Grienke be considered a better player

 

[Ghost Rider]

Tony Gwynn may be the most overrated player of all time.

what an incredibly bad take... the best pure hitter I ever saw.

.338 career hitter
8 batting titles
had more 4 hit games (45) than 2 strikeout games (34)
he hit .302 in two strike counts.
.331 lifetime average against hall of fame pitchers (.417 against Greg Maddox)

Drove in 100 runs once in his career. Scored 100 runs twice. Top 20 all time in grounding into double plays. Refused to sacrifice average to help the team. Clogging the bases with singles and then getting doubled up does not equate to greatness.

using current analytics instead of batting average, he ranks somewhere around Moises Alou.

using current analytics like WAR is also flawed... Gywnns lifetime WAR is 69. Zack Grienke was 75... in NO world should Grienke be considered a better player

Yep, WAR is another one of those made-up analytics "stats."

 

[Gally]

he "only" had 49 doubles as a max... but you know how many players had 50 doubles in a season in the 80s and 90s?

He averaged 27 doubles and only passed 40 twice. Once was 41 and then the aforementioned 49. He wasn't really a doubles hitter was my point. Singles and contact was what he excelled at.

 

[CGRdrJoe]

In for tim's "Is Freddie Freeman the greatest Dodger of all time?".

tim is a reason why Twitter/X was created. Because it's not a safe space for tim like the FFA is.

Professional Help Line – National Mental Health Help

help.nationalmentalhealthsupport.com

 

[tuffnutt]

he "only" had 49 doubles as a max... but you know how many players had 50 doubles in a season in the 80s and 90s?

He averaged 27 doubles and only passed 40 twice. Once was 41 and then the aforementioned 49. He wasn't really a doubles hitter was my point. Singles and contact was what he excelled at.

fair point. I probably like Gwynn more than most.

 

[Gally]

he "only" had 49 doubles as a max... but you know how many players had 50 doubles in a season in the 80s and 90s?

He averaged 27 doubles and only passed 40 twice. Once was 41 and then the aforementioned 49. He wasn't really a doubles hitter was my point. Singles and contact was what he excelled at.

fair point. I probably like Gwynn more than most.

Don't get me wrong, I think more hitters today should try and limit K's much more than they do. Gwynn was great to watch and as other's have mentioned there were quite a few of this type hitter in the late 70's to early 90's like Gwynn and Carew. Loved watching those guys hit. Contact has swung the other way with analytics and is now underrated. The out is an out way of thinking drives me nuts.

Putting the ball in play matters. Less K's and more in play would be nice. Watching the Blue Jays approach and extending AB's by fouling off pitch after pitch is so tough on pitchers in today's game. They have been a nightmare for pitchers to go deep. it's one of the reasons why they are where they are. I hope teams start heading to more of that approach in the coming years. It's makes the game as a whole so much better.

 

[Capella]

As for the vest SINGLE post season game ever? Maybe. Reggie Jackson has an argument though.

Got on base NINE times last night with two dingers and is the starting pitcher tonight. Lmao. Does everybody understand how insane that is?

 

[Eephus]

Six years in Anaheim and the Angels never reached .500 so he's not a miracle worker.

 

[Jay_B]

As for the vest SINGLE post season game ever? Maybe. Reggie Jackson has an argument though.

Got on base NINE times last night with two dingers and is the starting pitcher tonight. Lmao. Does everybody understand how insane that is?

Holy crikies, I just noticed that he was 100% (9 for 9) on-base percentage. 4 for 4 hitting, along with 5 walks. That is absolutely BONKERS.

 

[-fish-]

Tony Gwynn may be the most overrated player of all time.

what an incredibly bad take... the best pure hitter I ever saw.

.338 career hitter
8 batting titles
had more 4 hit games (45) than 2 strikeout games (34)
he hit .302 in two strike counts.
.331 lifetime average against hall of fame pitchers (.417 against Greg Maddox)

Drove in 100 runs once in his career. Scored 100 runs twice. Top 20 all time in grounding into double plays. Refused to sacrifice average to help the team. Clogging the bases with singles and then getting doubled up does not equate to greatness.

using current analytics instead of batting average, he ranks somewhere around Moises Alou.

Right.

Look, I love Gwynn. As a guy that loved the game but wasn't given a ton of natural talent, Gwynn was a great role model for me as a kid and I can't imagine any team ever not wanting him on their team. His ability to put the ball in play is there with Ted Williams, and the respect the pitchers of his time had for him is a genuine joy to listen to. But let's not kid ourselves - he just didn't have the same impact on the game as the OPS leaders that lap Gwynn because of their slugging.

Ted Williams criticized him for not pulling more balls and hitting for power. Gwynn had the ability to hit 25-30 HRs a year and drive in more runs at the sacrifice of some of his average, but he chose not to because batting average was more important to him.

 

[-fish-]

Just landed. Gonna go watch the guy that reached base 9 times with 4 extra base hits go pitch. Best player of my lifetime. and I'm old.

 

[belljr]

As for the vest SINGLE post season game ever? Maybe. Reggie Jackson has an argument though.

Got on base NINE times last night with two dingers and is the starting pitcher tonight. Lmao. Does everybody understand how insane that is?

And when the post was made he had 3hrs and struck out 10.....that's Reggie squared

 

[Ted Stickles]

Tony Gwynn may be the most overrated player of all time.

what an incredibly bad take... the best pure hitter I ever saw.

.338 career hitter
8 batting titles
had more 4 hit games (45) than 2 strikeout games (34)
he hit .302 in two strike counts.
.331 lifetime average against hall of fame pitchers (.417 against Greg Maddox)

Drove in 100 runs once in his career. Scored 100 runs twice. Top 20 all time in grounding into double plays. Refused to sacrifice average to help the team. Clogging the bases with singles and then getting doubled up does not equate to greatness.

using current analytics instead of batting average, he ranks somewhere around Moises Alou.

Right.

Look, I love Gwynn. As a guy that loved the game but wasn't given a ton of natural talent, Gwynn was a great role model for me as a kid and I can't imagine any team ever not wanting him on their team. His ability to put the ball in play is there with Ted Williams, and the respect the pitchers of his time had for him is a genuine joy to listen to. But let's not kid ourselves - he just didn't have the same impact on the game as the OPS leaders that lap Gwynn because of their slugging.

What are you talking about? Tony Gywnn was born with world-class athletic talent to be drafted in two professional leagues.

Tony Gwynn was drafted by the San Diego Clippers in the 10th round of the 1981 NBA draft, but he never played in the league. He was selected hours after the San Diego Padres drafted him in the third round of the MLB draft and chose to focus exclusively on baseball, a decision that led to a Hall of Fame career.

Gwynn was also drafted by the San Diego Padres in the MLB draft on the same day and chose to pursue a professional baseball career.

Gwynn had an outstanding four-year college basketball career at San Diego State, where he was a standout point guard and still holds school records for assists.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Don’t think Ohtani has the longevity yet to be the greatest of all time but I think he’s had the greatest five year stretch ever.