Is there any way we could refrain from the use of the word, VACCINE? Why can't it just be called what it really is? A flu shot!!! (1 Viewer)

[Ministry of Pain]

I have no clue what you were trying to say to me.

You said exactly what I bolded above and then I responded with mostly light hearted jest but some sincerity in my approach since obviously there is a mass disconnect.

How could you say the message has been a success or a hit when half the country in some cases 2/3 or more of certain minorities are unvaccinated at this point? The current ad campaign is not working. 

If Progressive and Flo are the Gold Standard  then the Biden campaign has looked...well, something like THIS!  Would you like some meat? 

 

[woodstock]

Narrator: it did indeed get moved to the PSF. 

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I was agreeing with you about the mindset and got offered a drink, so I’m not totally positive where MoP is at, either. 
 

I think he misunderstood your post. He thought you were condemning people, not trying to understand them. 

I’m not sure it’s all something that can be sorted out in this format, either. I got what you were saying, I think. 

I'll go back and re-read, it certainly got my attention, his use of the words I bolded.

Civil Disobedience? I wanted to launch a separate thread but whatever we're in the psf now. 

Pandemic Derange Syndrome or as I like to call it PDS and it is running rampant right now in this country. it runs in several directions, doesn't know a political party quite honestly much like this virus. 

 

[Andy Dufresne]

You said exactly what I bolded above and then I responded with mostly light hearted jest but some sincerity in my approach since obviously there is a mass disconnect.

How could you say the message has been a success or a hit when half the country in some cases 2/3 or more of certain minorities are unvaccinated at this point? The current ad campaign is not working. 

If Progressive and Flo are the Gold Standard  then the Biden campaign has looked...well, something like THIS!  Would you like some meat? 

I didn't say that.

 

[jhib]

I'm sorry bud but this just made me   . to the point   I can barely . type the response . but god bless you because what a wonderful release this is .

OMG!

ummm... okay.

Still, no one says vaccines are 100% effective for an individual.  One side says they aren't 100% effective, but the risk/reward calculation is so far in vaccine's favor that it's close to a no-brainer.  The other side says vaccines aren't 100% effective so the first side is lying to the public.  

 

[Ministry of Pain]

"Most of you know that every time you are exposed to advertising you realize once again that Americans leading industry America's most profitable business is still the manufacturing packaging and distribution and marketing of bull####. High quality Grade A prime cut pure American bull####. And the sad part is, most people seem to have been indoctrinated to believe that bull#### only comes from certain places...Advertising, Politics, Salesmen, not true, bull#### is everywhere. Bull#### is rampant...parents are full of ####, teachers are full of ####, clergymen are full of #### and law enforcement people are full of ####. This entire country is completely full of #### and always has been from the Declaration of Independence to the Constitution to the Star Spangled Banner it still nothing more than one big steaming pile of red white and blue All American Bull####,,,"

-George Carlin

 

[woodstock]

"Most of you know that every time you are exposed to advertising you realize once again that Americans leading industry America's most profitable business is still the manufacturing packaging and distribution and marketing of bull####. High quality Grade A prime cut pure American bull####. And the sad part is, most people seem to have been indoctrinated to believe that bull#### only comes from certain places...Advertising, Politics, Salesmen, not true, bull#### is everywhere. Bull#### is rampant...parents are full of ####, teachers are full of ####, clergymen are full of #### and law enforcement people are full of ####. This entire country is completely full of #### and always has been from the Declaration of Independence to the Constitution to the Star Spangled Banner it still nothing more than one big steaming pile of red white and blue All American Bull####,,,"

-George Carlin

George Carlin didn’t die well. 

 

[Ministry of Pain]

ummm... okay.

Still, no one says vaccines are 100% effective for an individual.  One side says they aren't 100% effective, but the risk/reward calculation is so far in vaccine's favor that it's close to a no-brainer.  The other side says vaccines aren't 100% effective so the first side is lying to the public.  

If I take a camera on the street and start rolling and ask 100 people if vaccines are thought of as being 100% effective or very close to that by the average citizen...Survey Says?!

Bang!

And the point is you're doing it right here. Semantics about what you think people should already assume and the reality of most folks in the real world. And that's my opinion of course but this sounds silly...I can go online and find stats that show flu shots are somewhere around 50% effective. They don't call them winter vaccines and IF people were told they would likely still catch Covid after their first shot and might need boosters 5-8 months later, look no further than Bill Maher. Either way, your position is a little shaky IMHO and I've laid out a solid argument as to why. The average person thinks get the shot and never get sick, if you think otherwise I think you are out of touch with most folks.  

 

[Ministry of Pain]

George Carlin didn’t die well. 

Narrator: Most people don't die well, that's why they call it dying.  

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I have no clue what you were trying to say to me.

Welcome to the club. Very odd thread.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

If I take a camera on the street and start rolling and ask 100 people if vaccines are thought of as being 100% effective or very close to that by the average citizen...Survey Says?!

Bang!

And the point is you're doing it right here. Semantics about what you think people should already assume and the reality of most folks in the real world. And that's my opinion of course but this sounds silly...I can go online and find stats that show flu shots are somewhere around 50% effective. They don't call them winter vaccines and IF people were told they would likely still catch Covid after their first shot and might need boosters 5-8 months later, look no further than Bill Maher. Either way, your position is a little shaky IMHO and I've laid out a solid argument as to why. The average person thinks get the shot and never get sick, if you think otherwise I think you are out of touch with most folks.  

I think it’s just you.

 

[jhib]

If I take a camera on the street and start rolling and ask 100 people if vaccines are thought of as being 100% effective or very close to that by the average citizen...Survey Says?!

Bang!

And the point is you're doing it right here. Semantics about what you think people should already assume and the reality of most folks in the real world. And that's my opinion of course but this sounds silly...I can go online and find stats that show flu shots are somewhere around 50% effective. They don't call them winter vaccines and IF people were told they would likely still catch Covid after their first shot and might need boosters 5-8 months later, look no further than Bill Maher. Either way, your position is a little shaky IMHO and I've laid out a solid argument as to why. The average person thinks get the shot and never get sick, if you think otherwise I think you are out of touch with most folks.  

1.) So you're changing your argument from "They tell us vaccines are 100% effective" to "Most people think vaccines are 100% effective"?  That's your solid argument?

2.) The average person on the street thinks a lot of stupid things.

 

[woodstock]

Narrator: Most people don't die well, that's why they call it dying.  

he died without much grace

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I think it’s just you.

In this forum you might be right   but I would still have no problem filming regular citizens and asking them if they take the vaccine if they assume they are immune to catching covid and the answer is going to be a resounding yes. 

We can say the skies are green but they are really blue. We can say the dirt is purple but its actually brown. Around here I guess I am a minority, thanks for pointing that out, now I have an inferiority complex I have to deal with, thanks gb

 

[Shutout]

In this forum you might be right   but I would still have no problem filming regular citizens and asking them if they take the vaccine if they assume they are immune to catching covid and the answer is going to be a resounding yes. 

We can say the skies are green but they are really blue. We can say the dirt is purple but its actually brown. Around here I guess I am a minority, thanks for pointing that out, now I have an inferiority complex I have to deal with, thanks gb

This needs more attention on this topic. 

It is as clear as can be that although all of us here might be on the same page in understanding the vaccine, many, many, many people out there thought that if they got the vaccine, that was their get out of jail free card. 

When this vaccine was launched, everywhere you looked you saw people getting the vaccine and then suddenly they were out there...going everywhere, ditching the masks, etc, etc.  And to be honest, it's easy to understand why they acted like that. They were basically given a golden carrot dangled out in front of them as they were inundated with advertisements saying "get the vaccine and get to "x"% and we can all get back to normal." People were very much led to believe that this was the magical bullet and they bought it. 

And to this day, it is being pushed at every opportunity as a super-vital thing that needs to be done so it is very natural for people to state, if asked, that they believe this vaccine accomplishes something very important in terms of protecting them from Covid and it is very logical to think that that very important something must be that it is going to protect them from catching covid. 

 

[Ministry of Pain]

1.) So you're changing your argument from "They tell us vaccines are 100% effective" to "Most people think vaccines are 100% effective"?  That's your solid argument?

2.) The average person on the street thinks a lot of stupid things.

Did you miss the entire point of this thread? It's been spotlighted and broadcast in 6 languages already that this is not the science thread. We are talking about marketing and sales, ways to get more people into the seats willingly with their veins open wide. 

Do you have any ideas on how we night accomplish this?  

 

[Ministry of Pain]

This needs more attention on this topic. 

It is as clear as can be that although all of us here might be on the same page in understanding the vaccine, many, many, many people out there thought that if they got the vaccine, that was their get out of jail free card. 

When this vaccine was launched, everywhere you looked you saw people getting the vaccine and then suddenly they were out there...going everywhere, ditching the masks, etc, etc.  And to be honest, it's easy to understand why they acted like that. They were basically given a golden carrot dangled out in front of them as they were inundated with advertisements saying "get the vaccine and get to "x"% and we can all get back to normal." People were very much led to believe that this was the magical bullet and they bought it. 

And to this day, it is being pushed at every opportunity as a super-vital thing that needs to be done so it is very natural for people to state, if asked, that they believe this vaccine accomplishes something very important in terms of protecting them from Covid and it is very logical to think that that very important something must be that it is going to protect them from catching covid. 

Then you have people who say "Nobody thought it was 100% fool proof" and again I can't understand that severely obtuse and narrow minded thought when so many people as you say were sold on the concept that take the shots ditch the mask and we can find posts where people here, yes right here in these forums were high  each other and congratulating each other on putting this sticky mess behind them, or so they they thought or were sold. 

It is unbelievable how folks are falling for this conditioning thru the media and elected officials about how they need to behave and conduct themselves.

i think Maher was the first push back and its allowed a lot more free thought in the last week or so. In fact since Maher pushed back, you could argue that Biden has had the worst week possible of his Presidency, Maher launched not last night but the Friday before and his speech last night on his show was another ringer for the Wokies out there.   

 

[Shutout]

Then you have people who say "Nobody thought it was 100% fool proof" and again I can't understand that severely obtuse and narrow minded thought when so many people as you say were sold on the concept that take the shots ditch the mask and we can find posts where people here, yes right here in these forums were high  each other and congratulating each other on putting this sticky mess behind them, or so they they thought or were sold. 

It is unbelievable how folks are falling for this conditioning thru the media and elected officials about how they need to behave and conduct themselves.

i think Maher was the first push back and its allowed a lot more free thought in the last week or so. In fact since Maher pushed back, you could argue that Biden has had the worst week possible of his Presidency, Maher launched not last night but the Friday before and his speech last night on his show was another ringer for the Wokies out there.   

Yes, Maher did open a window there. 

It is interesting to see the cracks here. The media sure isn't defending the president as they once were, either. 

At some point in this, Frankenstein's monster will return to the castle and I think he just saw the light over at the Frankenstein place. 

 

[Ministry of Pain]

he died without much grace

Were you by his bedside or something? Do tell 

 

[jhib]

Then you have people who say "Nobody thought it was 100% fool proof" and again I can't understand that severely obtuse and narrow minded thought when so many people as you say were sold on the concept that take the shots ditch the mask and we can find posts where people here, yes right here in these forums were high  each other and congratulating each other on putting this sticky mess behind them, or so they they thought or were sold. 

:sigh:

I'm sorry, but you're changing your arguments left and right and then mischaracterizing what I said.  When I remarked that "Nobody said vaccines were 100% effective," I was talking about the officials and scientists urging people to get vaccinated (who I believed were the targets of this thread), not what some random person on the street "thought."   Of course it would be obtuse to think nobody thought that, but nobody said that, either.

I was vaccinated in March/April.  At the time, the message was that the vaccination I was receiving offered a lot of protection - like low 90% of catching and close to 100% of dying from Covid.  And even more important IMHO was the clear message that I wasn't just protecting myself, but that I was helping my fellow man and contributing to the possibility of herd immunity.

Unfortunately, there was a mass anti-vaccination "marketing" movement going on as well - which was very loud and used your very effective means of advertising "bull####" - that thwarted the chances of that herd immunity and helped lead to where we are.  Not enough people vaccinated, helping a variant spread that lowers the effectiveness of the vaccine itself (but to be clear, the vaccine is still very effective and a no-brainer to receive for most healthy individuals).  

But let's keep blaming the original message and not the anti-vax movement that is screwing things up.

 

[jhib]

It is unbelievable how folks are falling for this conditioning thru the media and elected officials about how they need to behave and conduct themselves.

On one hand, you want officials to have a clearer marketing message to encourage vaccination while on the other, you denigrate those who listen to the message.

This is where I bow out, realizing I'm in over my head and joining those who don't have a clue where you're going with all this.

 

[Stealthycat]

I said this quite a few weeks back

These are not vaccines - they're shots that might or not not help people and when you gotta get boosters every few months .... that's unlike any "vaccine" I've ever heard of

 

[Rich Conway]

How can you possibly say that with a straight face when 2/3 of blacks are unvaccinated?

Gonna need some real proof on this claim.

 

[Stealthycat]

Still, no one says vaccines are 100% effective for an individual.

if only someone could tell us just how effective ...

"Our scientists are convinced by the data that the odds of getting or giving the virus to others is very, very low," Mr Biden said.

very very low

I guess people's idea of very very low is different than mine ...

 

[tonydead]

Gonna need some real proof on this claim.

Link  Figure 4.

It's gone from 1/3 vaccinated to 2/5 (or 40.3%) over the last month.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Gonna need some real proof on this claim.

Link  Figure 4.

It's gone from 1/3 vaccinated to 2/5 (or 40.3%) over the last month.

That stopped them in their tracks @tonydead

On a side note, I like RC very much, we have a little history and I would never want him to feel on the outside of one of my post, he's really a pretty awesome fellow with a wicked Sunday Setup as I recall and even if we didn't see eye to eye on a couple issues, quite frankly I don't care. I just want to watch football and eat snacks in the next few months. 

I'm tired of arguing, want to get back to the SP and football in the next few days, season about to start, time for MoP to get back to what he does best in here...prognosticating weekly cheatsheets and calling a spade a spade when I see it.  

 

[belljr]

On one hand, you want officials to have a clearer marketing message to encourage vaccination while on the other, you denigrate those who listen to the message.

This is where I bow out, realizing I'm in over my head and joining those who don't have a clue where you're going with all this.

  so spot on

 

[Rich Conway]

That stopped them in their tracks @tonydead

On a side note, I like RC very much, we have a little history and I would never want him to feel on the outside of one of my post, he's really a pretty awesome fellow with a wicked Sunday Setup as I recall and even if we didn't see eye to eye on a couple issues, quite frankly I don't care. I just want to watch football and eat snacks in the next few months. 

I'm tired of arguing, want to get back to the SP and football in the next few days, season about to start, time for MoP to get back to what he does best in here...prognosticating weekly cheatsheets and calling a spade a spade when I see it.  

I didn't see the original link but do see it once you quoted.

That said, the link provided absolutely does NOT say that blacks are only 40% vaccinated.  The CDC only has racial data for 58% of vaccinated people, meaning there are another 42% of vaxxed people that aren't counted under any of the racial groups (i.e. 42% of vaxxed people are counted as unvaxxed for purposes of Figure 4).  If we make a very significant (but unjustified) leap of logic that the 42% break down along the same racial lines as the 58% who did report racial data (although this seems unlikely), that would mean it's not 40% vaxxed for blacks, but rather 68.97% vaxxed for blacks.  If 72% of the eligible population is vaxxed, as reported in the first sentence, it would seem that ~69% for blacks is actually pretty close to the national average.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I didn't see the original link but do see it once you quoted.

That said, the link provided absolutely does NOT say that blacks are only 40% vaccinated.  The CDC only has racial data for 58% of vaccinated people, meaning there are another 42% of vaxxed people that aren't counted under any of the racial groups (i.e. 42% of vaxxed people are counted as unvaxxed for purposes of Figure 4).  If we make a very significant (but unjustified) leap of logic that the 42% break down along the same racial lines as the 58% who did report racial data (although this seems unlikely), that would mean it's not 40% vaxxed for blacks, but rather 68.97% vaxxed for blacks.  If 72% of the eligible population is vaxxed, as reported in the first sentence, it would seem that ~69% for blacks is actually pretty close to the national average.

I'm not going to take time finding links every time I make a post, its endless but weeks ago we saw first hand there was a huge amount of folks unvaccinated in the Black community which largely votes democratic. 

You can post 20 lines with lot of numbers and percentages but the reality on the ground in real life is they are slow to take the shot. 

Also you mixed Tony and I, i don't control nor do i want to try and control his posting habits...got it?

Cheers amigo

 

[Rich Conway]

I'm not going to take time finding links every time I make a post, its endless but weeks ago we saw first hand there was a huge amount of folks unvaccinated in the Black community which largely votes democratic. 

You can post 20 lines with lot of numbers and percentages but the reality on the ground in real life is they are slow to take the shot. 

Also you mixed Tony and I, i don't control nor do i want to try and control his posting habits...got it?

Cheers amigo

I don't want to control tony's posting habits either.  Just noting that when he posts a link, I won't see it (but I will see it if you post it or quote it).

To the bolded above, my point is that I keep hearing this narrative that blacks are highly unvaxxed, but the existing data doesn't support that narrative.  To my knowledge, no one has yet posted any data that supports the narrative.  You're a good dude, MoP, you're just wrong about this particular point.  Blacks are slightly undervaxxed compared the national average, but it's only a slight discrepancy (as shown in the link tony posted and you subsequently quoted).

Different source, albeit dated back to August 4, we see blacks vaxxed at 65% in Figure 3, with whites at 70%: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-july-2021/

 

[tonydead]

I didn't see the original link but do see it once you quoted.

That said, the link provided absolutely does NOT say that blacks are only 40% vaccinated.  The CDC only has racial data for 58% of vaccinated people, meaning there are another 42% of vaxxed people that aren't counted under any of the racial groups (i.e. 42% of vaxxed people are counted as unvaxxed for purposes of Figure 4).  If we make a very significant (but unjustified) leap of logic that the 42% break down along the same racial lines as the 58% who did report racial data (although this seems unlikely), that would mean it's not 40% vaxxed for blacks, but rather 68.97% vaxxed for blacks.  If 72% of the eligible population is vaxxed, as reported in the first sentence, it would seem that ~69% for blacks is actually pretty close to the national average.

  So wrong.  

While these data provide helpful insights at a national level, to date, CDC is not publicly reporting state-level data on the racial/ethnic composition of people vaccinated.

Figure 4 isn't even CDC's data.  They are being reported by KFF who made the report based on individual state's public data.

You said, "42% of vaxxed people are counted as as unvaxxed."      Who in their right mind would do that?