Jeff Ireland asks Dez Bryant if his mom is a prostitute (1 Viewer)

[Chase Stuart]

I think the odds that Ireland was actually going to get anything remotely useful out of asking this question were essentially zero. And he was an ### for asking the question.

I don't care how Bryant reacted or what he said. Knowing that piece of information doesn't change how I think Bryant is going to play as a pro. Talk about paralysis by analysis; NFL executives must think they're leading experts in psychoanalysis now, too. It's not surprising to me that someone like Ireland would ask this. I don't think Andy Reid, Bill Belichick or Jeff Fisher would waste any of their limited time (15 minutes per player) with a star recruit. In addition to being crass, I'd be annoyed if I was a Dolphins fan that Ireland might just be an idiot.

 

[taylorj99]

Still, without knowing how the question was asked or the motives behind it, I'm not sure I have a problem with it. In fact, during his telephone conversation/apology, he very well may have explained it to Dez. That may have made it easier to accept an apology. None of us are privy to that information either.

Obviously, the NFLPA had Ross on the horn yesterday to prompt an "investigation." I think the whole story will come out now. We'll get confirmation that Ireland is a #####, but doesn't deserve a "fine" because he hurt someone's feelings.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I think the odds that Ireland was actually going to get anything remotely useful out of asking this question were essentially zero. And he was an ### for asking the question.I don't care how Bryant reacted or what he said. Knowing that piece of information doesn't change how I think Bryant is going to play as a pro. Talk about paralysis by analysis; NFL executives must think they're leading experts in psychoanalysis now, too. It's not surprising to me that someone like Ireland would ask this. I don't think Andy Reid, Bill Belichick or Jeff Fisher would waste any of their limited time (15 minutes per player) with a star recruit. In addition to being crass, I'd be annoyed if I was a Dolphins fan that Ireland might just be an idiot.

36 year Dolphins fan that is standing right behind you with a shovel in hand.

 

[wdh76]

Not that it will effect how any of you guys feel about what happened, but there was a guest on the M&M show this morining who went a little more into Dez's back story. He said that his mom would be moving with him wherever he went and that he would be responsable for her on a day to day basis. He did not feel safe leaving her behind and just "sending her money". Knowing that Dez would be caring for his mother in that capacity might have spurred the Phins on to futher explore the relationship between Dez and his mother.

On the whole I find this a non-story. Why arnt all you EEO guys upset with questions faced by Gerhart?

 

[Stinkin Ref]

not that it neccessairly makes a difference, but there was a guy on Mike and MIke this morning that said Dez's mom is going to be living with him every day in the same house.......he stated it is not like she will just be living back in her own little place in Lubbick or something.....

 

[wdh76]

not that it neccessairly makes a difference, but there was a guy on Mike and MIke this morning that said Dez's mom is going to be living with him every day in the same house.......he stated it is not like she will just be living back in her own little place in Lubbick or something.....

Cant remember his name either?

 

[pollardsvision]

Not that it will effect how any of you guys feel about what happened, but there was a guest on the M&M show this morining who went a little more into Dez's back story. He said that his mom would be moving with him wherever he went and that he would be responsable for her on a day to day basis. He did not feel safe leaving her behind and just "sending her money". Knowing that Dez would be caring for his mother in that capacity might have spurred the Phins on to futher explore the relationship between Dez and his mother.On the whole I find this a non-story. Why arnt all you EEO guys upset with questions faced by Gerhart?

Again, it's quite common knowledge that Dez's mother living with him will be bad news. Don't see how knowing what she will do for money effects that. Should they have asked if she's also a screamer? That would effect his sleep habits, wouldn't it?There's just some things that are inappropriate to ask.For example, would it have been okay to ask Tim Tebow if he's a homosexual?I know some that think it's possible and nutjobs like myself could point to signs. If he were, it could very well be an important thing for a team to know. Who'd want that fire storm of a story?As ridiculous as that question sounds, it's very similar to the Dez/prostitute question because (a) it's obviously very offensive to the person being asked (nothing offensive about being a homosexual, but I'd assume Tebow as strong Christian man might take offense. maybe I'm wrong) and (b) most importantly, nothing good can come of the question.

 

[wdh76]

Not that it will effect how any of you guys feel about what happened, but there was a guest on the M&M show this morining who went a little more into Dez's back story. He said that his mom would be moving with him wherever he went and that he would be responsable for her on a day to day basis. He did not feel safe leaving her behind and just "sending her money". Knowing that Dez would be caring for his mother in that capacity might have spurred the Phins on to futher explore the relationship between Dez and his mother.

On the whole I find this a non-story. Why arnt all you EEO guys upset with questions faced by Gerhart?

Again, it's quite common knowledge that Dez's mother living with him will be bad news. Don't see how knowing what she will do for money effects that. Should they have asked if she's also a screamer? That would effect his sleep habits, wouldn't it?

There's just some things that are inappropriate to ask.

For example, would it have been okay to ask Tim Tebow if he's a homosexual?

I know some that think it's possible and nutjobs like myself could point to signs. If he were, it could very well be an important thing for a team to know. Who'd want that fire storm of a story?

As ridiculous as that question sounds, it's very similar to the Dez/prostitute question because (a) it's obviously very offensive to the person being asked (nothing offensive about being a homosexual, but I'd assume Tebow as strong Christian man might take offense. maybe I'm wrong) and (b) most importantly, nothing good can come of the question.

Not so sure...If the Phins avoided him because of how this was handled and his mother goes on to be a HUGE distraction and prevents him for having a succsessfull career that could be a good for them. Highly doubtful but still possible...

 

[wdh76]

No one addressed my other point so I will try again. Where do all you guys who are bashing Ireland stand on the questions that Gerhart faced?

“One team I interviewed with asked me about being a white running back…They asked if it made me feel entitled, or like I felt I was a poster child for white running backs. I said, ‘No, I’m just out there playing ball. I don’t think about that.’ I didn’t really know what to say.”

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_14928883

Where is all the hate for asking these questions?

 

[fatness]

As for the Tebow question - I bet a lot of teams asked some direct questions about his religious beliefs - more so than a typical player.

I doubt they asked about sex acts his mom performs.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

No one addressed my other point so I will try again. Where do all you guys who are bashing Ireland stand on the questions that Gerhart faced?

“One team I interviewed with asked me about being a white running back…They asked if it made me feel entitled, or like I felt I was a poster child for white running backs. I said, ‘No, I’m just out there playing ball. I don’t think about that.’ I didn’t really know what to say.”

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_14928883

Where is all the hate for asking these questions?

that deals with race and stuff....old news......potential mama whores is where it is at now......get a clue

 

[Chase Stuart]

No one addressed my other point so I will try again. Where do all you guys who are bashing Ireland stand on the questions that Gerhart faced?

“One team I interviewed with asked me about being a white running back…They asked if it made me feel entitled, or like I felt I was a poster child for white running backs. I said, ‘No, I’m just out there playing ball. I don’t think about that.’ I didn’t really know what to say.”

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_14928883

Where is all the hate for asking these questions?

I don't think those questions deserve bashing. I don't think they're offensive, either. I think they're pretty stupid (let's see if the kid from Stanford chooses a) I feel entitled or b) I want to work hard to prove myself) but I don't think the person who asked Gerhart that was out of line. I suppose I might feel differently if we knew that the interviewer wasn't white, but I haven't really thought about it.

 

[Matt Waldman]

In my view, this draft has been accurate depiction of the ignorance that still exists in today's society (these are my opinions and not the opinions of Footballguys):

1. Toby Gerhart should not have been discouraged to play RB. It's obvious from his physical and conceptual skills that he was a heck of a running back at Stanford and stands an excellent chance to a valuable contributor in Minnesota. I believe he was discouraged because teams, the media, and the public didn't do their due diligence on Gerhart's skills. In some cases - not all, but some - I believe the motivation for some people's desires to move Gerhart is that they believe only black players can play the position at a high level because of an ignorant stance steeped in pseudo science that white players lack the athleticism to excel. I also find it sad that its ok for black players to play "instinctive" positions but they have a harder time getting opportunities to play "conceptual positions," and the reverse for white players. This should change, it is changing, and I believe it will continue to change.

2. Myron Rolle should not have been questioned about an opportunity to pursue academia to its pinnacle. If the NFL doesn't want to take early draft entries then it needs to keep its mouth shut about questioning players about their commitment to team and athletics if academics are supposed to be the first priority. Otherwise its hypocritical. Whether you like Obama or not, I think in some certain pockets of our society the reaction to his election was not just about his political leanings but the fact that he is an articulate, intelligent black man in a society where less than a generation ago his accomplishments would not have been possible. In some pockets of our society I believe the only thing some folks are more scared of than a black person is an intelligent black person. Myron Rolle might be one of the most intelligent young people in the NFL and the way some people with power react to others with equal or more power, talent, or intelligence is to try to knock them down a peg. I would not be surprised if some egotistic folks in a position of power decided to play that little game. Jeff Fisher, who was part of the organization that picked Rolle, had Rolle as a 2nd or 3rd round pick last year. Fisher was safety. His roommate was the greatest safety of all time. I think Fisher had a clue. I understand that Rolle could have dropped just due to a year away from football and the perceived difficulty and risk that a year off can have on being rusty/slowed development/etc. But to question the guys' commitment to team is asinine.

3. If Tim Tebow was black and Juice Williams was white, I believe Williams would have been drafted as a strong-armed project with tons of potential but questionable decision making (and compared to Flacco...John Skelton, much?) and Tebow would be trying out for a camp opportunity. Tebow represents a lot of what our society and power structure (not our president, but the majority of our leaders in business and lots of government) feels comfortable with naturally on some level: white, Christian, earnest, hard-working, and reasonably well-spoken. Although if I think he were black and had that lisp, he'd probably have his intelligence questioned far more than he does as a white man. I believe Williams and Tebow both have NFL potential, but Tebow was taken too high and Williams not taken at all. Again, I believe this comes from biases people that often times they are not even aware of.

4. Jeff Ireland's line of questioning was completely ignorant. If he had any reason to believe his mother had a background with prostitution, confronting her son with it was not necessary. If he knew anything that went in that direction, that could have stay confidential among upper management and if it bothered them enough not to pick him, then don't. Asking Bryant was an antagonistic ploy. He felt it was ok to ask a kid from an underprivileged background a question that could be considered harassment. This is essentially a job interview. This question had nothing to do with whether Bryant could physically, emotionally, or mentally handle the job of being a professional wide receiver. If Bryant offered up that he might have some difficulties making meetings or practice due to issues with his mother then I can understand Ireland inquiring about her, but not ever asking that specific question unless Bryant said something to clearly imply it and Ireland was asking for clarification. It's also sad that Ireland said something this inflammatory and Bryant had to be forced to keep his mouth shut until after the draft so he didn't risk dropping any further by raising the issue and looking like even more of a malcontent. I joked with my wife that if we had a son in that situation I would have told him it might have been worth the several million to take a swing at Ireland. Of course, I thought about it for another 30 seconds and realized I would have much preferred for him to turn the other cheek. If it were me, I would have asked Ireland the same question back about his mother and then maybe reach into my pocket take out my wallet and slip a $5 bill across the table and ask him as her pimp, what would she cost?

Seriously. Our country has a history steeped in ignorance about race. So do other countries. At least in this country we talk about it and (however too slowly at times) try to figure out ways (as imperfect as the process is for all peoples) to address it. Its no surprise that both whites and people of color are having issues in athletics. Gerhart, Tebow, Rolle, and Bryant have all dealt with societal ignorance and will continue to at every level.

 

[ChromeWeasel]

I did a quick search on the topic and I don't see any context for the question. It was asked in private and no one is saying how it came up. That makes it a non-story to me. It's very easy to take something out of context and get offended when you're not part of the conversation.

I can image ways where this is relavent. If the interview goes into his background, and Dez talks about tough times growing up. Dez recalls being left outside the bedroom while his mom goes in with 2 guys and a bag of coke. At that point it's not out of the question to ask if his mom is a pro.

I don't see a big deal here. It's a story that appeals to people who want to get offended over things that they have no business being involved with.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I did a quick search on the topic and I don't see any context for the question. It was asked in private and no one is saying how it came up. That makes it a non-story to me. It's very easy to take something out of context and get offended when you're not part of the conversation.I can image ways where this is relavent. If the interview goes into his background, and Dez talks about tough times growing up. Dez recalls being left outside the bedroom while his mom goes in with 2 guys and a bag of coke. At that point it's not out of the question to ask if his mom is a pro.I don't see a big deal here. It's a story that appeals to people who want to get offended over things that they have no business being involved with.

Why did Ireland apologize then?

 

[phthalatemagic]

Prostitution isn't a dishonorable profession. The reaction here in this thread shows the artificial stigma foisted upon it. Pretty disappointed in you guys.

 

[fatness]

If it were me, I would have asked Ireland the same question back about his mother and then maybe reach into my pocket take out my wallet and slip a $5 bill across the table and ask him as her pimp, what would she cost?

That would have been appropriate to the question that was asked.

 

[fatness]

NFL Players Association executive director DeMaurice Smith said Ireland's question raised worrisome issues.

"We need to make sure the men of this league are treated as businessmen," Smith said in a statement. "During interviews, our players and prospective players should never be subjected to discrimination or degradation stemming from the biases or misconceptions held by team personnel."

Bryant is black. Ireland is white.

"NFL teams cannot have the free reign to ask questions during the interview process which can be categorized as stereotyping or which may bring a personal insult to any player as a man," Smith said. "For the past year, active, former and incoming players have heard me speak about the expectations we have of them as members of this union, their teams, communities and families. It is equally true that the same kind of respect is demanded of their employers."

Associated Press article in the Washington Examiner

 

[NoFBinLA]

:WALDMANSPEAKS:

I liek and agree with a lot of where you're coming from matt - and maybe this is dealt with elsewhere in this thread butas I haven't read it all....The thing about the Dez Bryant question is it wasn't asked for the answer - Ireland (if he has half a brain) already knew the answer to that question. Every team did.He asked it to see how Bryant (a kid with 'character concerns') would react. Would he pitch a fit? Get angry? Start throwing things?Giving a guy a ton of money makes you wonder these things. I don't like the question. I don't think I agree with the motive. But it happens all the time - the fact that this got out is a bit surprising, but we've heard about aggressive questions in these interviews before and I'm betting there have been questions as obnoxious as this one we've never heard about.As is actually supported by the Gerhart & Rolle nonsense. These guys are constantly l;ooking to provoke and push these kids. As far as I know, it's been happening in interviews for years.I think it was a crass question. It's dissappointing it got asked but not surprising. At least not to me.

 

[Dexter Manley]

Dolphins owner will look into Ireland matter

Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on April 28, 2010 6:51 PM ET

The Dolphins are helping to make sure the Jeff Ireland/Dez Bryant controversy does not go away.

Owner Steve Ross, who has to be surprised this story has been featured so prominently on ESPN, issued a statement Wednesday:

"I will be looking into this matter personally and will take appropriate actions if necessary," the statement reads. "I have always strived to comply with the highest standards in all aspects of my businesses including recruiting. In interviewing employees we always look to obtain relevant and appropriate information in adherence with the best industry practices."

We appreciated the gesture of Ireland's statement and apology on Tuesday. After this statement, we wonder if it's a good idea for the Dolphins to continue to amplify a story they should hope goes away.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/...ireland-matter/

 

[ChromeWeasel]

I did a quick search on the topic and I don't see any context for the question. It was asked in private and no one is saying how it came up. That makes it a non-story to me. It's very easy to take something out of context and get offended when you're not part of the conversation.I can image ways where this is relavent. If the interview goes into his background, and Dez talks about tough times growing up. Dez recalls being left outside the bedroom while his mom goes in with 2 guys and a bag of coke. At that point it's not out of the question to ask if his mom is a pro.I don't see a big deal here. It's a story that appeals to people who want to get offended over things that they have no business being involved with.

Why did Ireland apologize then?

Because he realized that Dez was upset after the fact. Or because his boss read about Dez going public and told Ireland that no matter what was said you better get into damage control mode.

 

[Chase Stuart]

He asked it to see how Bryant (a kid with 'character concerns') would react. Would he pitch a fit? Get angry? Start throwing things?

Is any question/statement off limits if used just to see how the player reacts?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I did a quick search on the topic and I don't see any context for the question. It was asked in private and no one is saying how it came up. That makes it a non-story to me. It's very easy to take something out of context and get offended when you're not part of the conversation.I can image ways where this is relavent. If the interview goes into his background, and Dez talks about tough times growing up. Dez recalls being left outside the bedroom while his mom goes in with 2 guys and a bag of coke. At that point it's not out of the question to ask if his mom is a pro.I don't see a big deal here. It's a story that appeals to people who want to get offended over things that they have no business being involved with.

Why did Ireland apologize then?

Because he realized that Dez was upset after the fact. Or because his boss read about Dez going public and told Ireland that no matter what was said you better get into damage control mode.

Why would his boss put him on damage control if the context was appropriate? Why wouldn't they just explain the context?Are you saying Ireland isn't smart enough to realize that asking someone if there mother is a whore wouldn't upset them before the fact?

 

[NoFBinLA]

He asked it to see how Bryant (a kid with 'character concerns') would react. Would he pitch a fit? Get angry? Start throwing things?

Is any question/statement off limits if used just to see how the player reacts?

Thats the question really. I don't like it. What's the limit? What's too much?It's a question the NFL may be forced to answer by next Draft season.

 

[Matt Waldman]

He asked it to see how Bryant (a kid with 'character concerns') would react. Would he pitch a fit? Get angry? Start throwing things?

Is any question/statement off limits if used just to see how the player reacts?

Thats the question really. I don't like it. What's the limit? What's too much?It's a question the NFL may be forced to answer by next Draft season.

I think the answer is "if you can't think of a better way to get under the skin of a player, then you shouldn't be a GM."Look at Jon Gruden and how he got under the skin of each player he interviewed in the ESPN pieces. He made made fun of each player, questioned their dedication, skills, or approach, but he did it appropriately. Just for fun...Let's learn a little bit about Jeff Ireland. (Wikipedia as the source)-Ball boy for the Chicago Bears (His grandfather was an exec for the Bears)-Placekicker for the the Baylor Bears-NFL Scouting Combine Scout 1994-1996-KC Chiefs Scout 1997-2000-2001, National Scout for Cowboys-2005, promoted to VP of National Scouting for Cowboys-2008, Dolphins GM It looks reasonable to guess that Ireland got his first scouting job due to his grandfather and Hall of Fame LB stepfather. If not he there's no question he had the nepotistic connections for consideration. He was a kicker. While some kickers are football players, I would assert that at least half of them probably don't earn that title. Even as the GM it is believed he doesn't have final say over player personnel.

 

[NoFBinLA]

He asked it to see how Bryant (a kid with 'character concerns') would react. Would he pitch a fit? Get angry? Start throwing things?

Is any question/statement off limits if used just to see how the player reacts?

Thats the question really. I don't like it. What's the limit? What's too much?It's a question the NFL may be forced to answer by next Draft season.

I think the answer is "if you can't think of a better way to get under the skin of a player, then you shouldn't be a GM."Look at Jon Gruden and how he got under the skin of each player he interviewed in the ESPN pieces. He made made fun of each player, questioned their dedication, skills, or approach, but he did it appropriately.

Agreed. Gruden is the master of manipulation (and sometimes I think it's hurt him). I'm not saying Ireland wasn't hamfisted. Just saying that many things get asked of these guys that WE as a public might be shocked at.Now that it has come to light, assuming the media and people don't get distracted, this may change.

 

[az_prof]

No one addressed my other point so I will try again. Where do all you guys who are bashing Ireland stand on the questions that Gerhart faced?

“One team I interviewed with asked me about being a white running back…They asked if it made me feel entitled, or like I felt I was a poster child for white running backs. I said, ‘No, I’m just out there playing ball. I don’t think about that.’ I didn’t really know what to say.”

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_14928883

Where is all the hate for asking these questions?

Go back and read the thread more carefully. I DID denounce the racist questioning of Gerhart and think those teams should be punished and fined too. It's illegal to ask someone about their race. There is a general lack of professionalism among the front offices in the NFL and I am upset about the hypocrisy of the league punishing players very seriously for "embarrassing" the league while behavior among owners and coaches and staff is swept under the rug. I have interviewed people for jobs and I know the law: you can't ask questions that are not germane to the job function. In the case of Gerhart there is no question that the line of questioning about his race is illegal. In the case of Bryant it may be illegal or it may not, depending on the circumstances and how he asked it exactly, but it is most definitely immoral. If you can't see that then you lack basic humanity.I suspect the reason that the "whore" question is getting more play is two fold. First, no one has defended the racist line of questioning offered to Gerhard, but there appear to many who think asking a job applicant if their mother is a whore is perfectly fine. So, the attempts to justify the behavior have led the discussion. Second, there is something very visceral about questioning a man about his mother. You don't do it. It's like something most of us learned in middle school when bullies did it to provoke a kid into fighting. It's so visceral because the image of the mother is fundamental to our idea of the family and womanhood and we all look to our mothers with a sort of idealism I suppose. America is about Chevy, apple pie, and Mom. So, it's not surprising that calling someone's Mom a whore to their face, whether she was or she wasn't, would generate so much controversy.

 

[PewterFan]

Still, without knowing how the question was asked or the motives behind it, I'm not sure I have a problem with it. In fact, during his telephone conversation/apology, he very well may have explained it to Dez. That may have made it easier to accept an apology. None of us are privy to that information either.

A voice of reason. Ireland made a mistake, but it's not the end of the world. He certainly shouldn't get fired for this.

 

[az_prof]

You write: "( Did he talk to Ireland later? To his own head coach? To Jerry Jones? To his agent? There is still the code of the locker room in play here.)"

Please. If I called your mom a whore to your face would you would be worried about the 'code of the locker room'? And, remember, this isn't even a job interview (according to some who defend Ireland). How can Bryant owe any sort of respect or "silence" to Ireland when they aren't on the same team? Does the "code of the locker room" extend to protecting people who break the law? Behave immorally? Frankly, I wish Bryant had beaten Ireland to a pulp, which is what he deserved. I wonder if he had and if he were charged with assault if some of you arm chair psychologists would then try to blame him?

 

[az_prof]

Still, without knowing how the question was asked or the motives behind it, I'm not sure I have a problem with it. In fact, during his telephone conversation/apology, he very well may have explained it to Dez. That may have made it easier to accept an apology. None of us are privy to that information either.

A voice of reason. Ireland made a mistake, but it's not the end of the world. He certainly shouldn't get fired for this.

He deserves to be fined and punished. Whether he deserves to be fired would require more investigation by the team. If I were his boss I would certainly want to know more about his management philosophy and what he thinks is ethical and justified in his treatment of employees and potential employees. Someone who would ask a question like this may not have the proper attitude to be a good representative of the team or a good manager in my view. They clearly lack a basic sort of understanding of human nature. There's a disconnect there that I would definitely explore.

 

[Futeki]

I think the odds that Ireland was actually going to get anything remotely useful out of asking this question were essentially zero. And he was an ### for asking the question.I don't care how Bryant reacted or what he said. Knowing that piece of information doesn't change how I think Bryant is going to play as a pro. Talk about paralysis by analysis; NFL executives must think they're leading experts in psychoanalysis now, too. It's not surprising to me that someone like Ireland would ask this. I don't think Andy Reid, Bill Belichick or Jeff Fisher would waste any of their limited time (15 minutes per player) with a star recruit. In addition to being crass, I'd be annoyed if I was a Dolphins fan that Ireland might just be an idiot.

I disagreeI think you can get plenty of useful information. Whether Ireland is right or wrong ( I will assert neither here) doesn't mean Bryant can't be considered "right or wrong" in his reaction to it. Whether Ireland is a jerk or crossed the line is one thing. Whether Bryant is considered a snitch or someone with poor self control or is a habitual liar is another. AgainA) Did Bryant exhaust all possible options before going to the press? ( Did he talk to Ireland later? To his own head coach? To Jerry Jones? To his agent? There is still the code of the locker room in play here.) Does Bryant want the perception that everything he doesn't like , whether he has a right to dislike it or not, ends up in the press? Did that really help Terrell Owens much? B) How will Bryant react being constantly scrutinized by the press? He's not just an NFL player, he's also a celebrity. C) If Ireland already knows the answer to the question, does Bryant lie again? ( Something to consider is that everyone lies at their job at some point. Bryant actually takes two hits for the Deion Sanders incident. The first is he lied to begin with. The second is he got caught. One of the issues with discretion is understanding there is a time and place for things. ) The entire process of the draft, the combine, pro days and these long evaluations have a dual purpose, beyond seeing what a player can do for you, but to put the player under duress and see how he performs and reacts. There is also the element of breaking down a prospect in situations that are humbling, sometimes maybe even humiliating, to put them in a position to be a team oriented player. Militaries across the world do this on a regular basis. I'm sure someone will say this isn't the Marine Corps. No it's not, but this is not a "regular job" There is NOTHING dignified about celebrity. If Dez Bryant was a character on Lost, he'd still have people digging through his trash and videotaping his every move. I'm not saying Ireland is right, I'm saying to simply pan Ireland without full context is patently unfair. No one was in the room with him or Bryant. Questions to recruits are scripted. Unfortunately Ireland and other NFL franchises can't really discuss this. With such a short amount of time with a player, they have to be scripted and thought out. Things just don't happen "randomly" when a franchise has an opportunity to evaluate a player.

I don't think any of us are saying it was a good line of questioning, just that the goals are many possible goals and the questioning is understandable in certain situations.Now, if Ireland berated Bryant stating "Your mother is a whore", then that negates everything and Ireland would indeed be an idiot.From my understanding Ireland asked "Was your mother a prostitute?" I think the large number of posters resorting to violence over such a question is disturbing.

 

[Matt Waldman]

He asked it to see how Bryant (a kid with 'character concerns') would react. Would he pitch a fit? Get angry? Start throwing things?

Is any question/statement off limits if used just to see how the player reacts?

Thats the question really. I don't like it. What's the limit? What's too much?It's a question the NFL may be forced to answer by next Draft season.

I think the answer is "if you can't think of a better way to get under the skin of a player, then you shouldn't be a GM."Look at Jon Gruden and how he got under the skin of each player he interviewed in the ESPN pieces. He made made fun of each player, questioned their dedication, skills, or approach, but he did it appropriately.

Agreed. Gruden is the master of manipulation (and sometimes I think it's hurt him). I'm not saying Ireland wasn't hamfisted. Just saying that many things get asked of these guys that WE as a public might be shocked at.Now that it has come to light, assuming the media and people don't get distracted, this may change.

It shouldn't be asked of these players. The front office is not the football field. If you're on the football field and some dude asks you how much your mother charges for a turn, you laugh it off, say something back, point to the scoreboard, or best yet execute a play and tell him to repeat what he said to you earlier because you couldn't hear what he said with the crowd cheering (home) or booing (away) so loud after taking a turn with him. I think a lot of us know that the NFL does some crazy stuff behind the scenes, but let's not mistake the stupidity of front office people trying to act self-important and pivotal in the leadership process with what should be good leadership and the realities of the field. We give the NFL managers way too much leeway when it comes to evaluating players. The guy is a flipping kicker who still sits at the kiddie table on draft day as Papa Bill makes the calls. This was his chance to be the tough guy. I'm sure there are far more examples like this in the NFL, there are beat reporters in Miami talking about these examples on Twitter as we speak.Some of these guys are nothing but mediocre or failed football players who take a seriously old-school approach to stuff that doesn't need to be the case. Matt Millen completely represents that old-guard in some respects and he's one of the guys trying to defend it. The fact that he's calling Ron Jaworski a Polack on national TV should give you a good frame of reference that the realities of managing an organization have passed him by before he even got a seat on that train. It's not the fact that he and Jaworski probably joke like that all the time. It's the fact that he lacks the awareness to know when or when its not appropriate to be informal with people. While I appreciate the movie Gran Torino for its depiction of old school ways like that (I have family that completely fit into that barbershop and construction scene), it doesn't mean that its a good and unappreciated way of doing things. The NFL is tough. Football is tough. I guess if you're a failed kicker at Baylor, you have to overcompensate for the fact that you have no track record of toughness as a player or coach. Too bad. Tony Dungy and **** Vermeil are softspoken guys and they are winners. Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, Jerry Rice, Larry Fitzgerald...they didn't say much. Jim Brown was one of the toughest SOBs in pro football and he did his talking on the field. I don't mean to attack only Ireland (ok, yes I do - it's fun), but the entire system. Its flawed.

 

[Matt Waldman]

I think the odds that Ireland was actually going to get anything remotely useful out of asking this question were essentially zero. And he was an ### for asking the question.I don't care how Bryant reacted or what he said. Knowing that piece of information doesn't change how I think Bryant is going to play as a pro. Talk about paralysis by analysis; NFL executives must think they're leading experts in psychoanalysis now, too. It's not surprising to me that someone like Ireland would ask this. I don't think Andy Reid, Bill Belichick or Jeff Fisher would waste any of their limited time (15 minutes per player) with a star recruit. In addition to being crass, I'd be annoyed if I was a Dolphins fan that Ireland might just be an idiot.

I disagreeI think you can get plenty of useful information. Whether Ireland is right or wrong ( I will assert neither here) doesn't mean Bryant can't be considered "right or wrong" in his reaction to it. Whether Ireland is a jerk or crossed the line is one thing. Whether Bryant is considered a snitch or someone with poor self control or is a habitual liar is another. AgainA) Did Bryant exhaust all possible options before going to the press? ( Did he talk to Ireland later? To his own head coach? To Jerry Jones? To his agent? There is still the code of the locker room in play here.) Does Bryant want the perception that everything he doesn't like , whether he has a right to dislike it or not, ends up in the press? Did that really help Terrell Owens much? B) How will Bryant react being constantly scrutinized by the press? He's not just an NFL player, he's also a celebrity. C) If Ireland already knows the answer to the question, does Bryant lie again? ( Something to consider is that everyone lies at their job at some point. Bryant actually takes two hits for the Deion Sanders incident. The first is he lied to begin with. The second is he got caught. One of the issues with discretion is understanding there is a time and place for things. ) The entire process of the draft, the combine, pro days and these long evaluations have a dual purpose, beyond seeing what a player can do for you, but to put the player under duress and see how he performs and reacts. There is also the element of breaking down a prospect in situations that are humbling, sometimes maybe even humiliating, to put them in a position to be a team oriented player. Militaries across the world do this on a regular basis. I'm sure someone will say this isn't the Marine Corps. No it's not, but this is not a "regular job" There is NOTHING dignified about celebrity. If Dez Bryant was a character on Lost, he'd still have people digging through his trash and videotaping his every move. I'm not saying Ireland is right, I'm saying to simply pan Ireland without full context is patently unfair. No one was in the room with him or Bryant. Questions to recruits are scripted. Unfortunately Ireland and other NFL franchises can't really discuss this. With such a short amount of time with a player, they have to be scripted and thought out. Things just don't happen "randomly" when a franchise has an opportunity to evaluate a player.

I don't think any of us are saying it was a good line of questioning, just that the goals are many possible goals and the questioning is understandable in certain situations.Now, if Ireland berated Bryant stating "Your mother is a whore", then that negates everything and Ireland would indeed be an idiot.From my understanding Ireland asked "Was your mother a prostitute?" I think the large number of posters resorting to violence over such a question is disturbing.

Seriously. No one on earth would go to a job interview an reasonably expect the boss to ask that question. The only place that would be asked is government with some level of security involved or maybe during military training. Football is not the military. No matter how violent and hard football is, half of these guys would be crying for their momma after basic training or the potential reality of getting tortured. There are only two reasons Ireland would ask this question: to see how Bryant deals with stress/confrontation or if they had suspicion this were a true situation. If it's a test, he could have done it another way if he were more intelligent. If it was a suspicion and it really mattered in some way, then don't pick him. Asking him isn't going to accomplish anything except diminish the respect people have for the questioner. That's not good leadership.

 

[fatness]

A) Did Bryant exhaust all possible options before going to the press? ( Did he talk to Ireland later? To his own head coach? To Jerry Jones? To his agent? There is still the code of the locker room in play here.)

Whoever is operating this alias is doing a piss-poor job.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

I understand that they're paying these guys a lot of money and they're trying to get all the information that they can to base this imortant decision on but there's always a line and Ireland crossed it.

I don't care how much money it is, you don't ask a guy that question. Is that really how you treat potential future employees?

Absolutely terrible and I'll be honest if it were the Cowboys who did that I'd really lose a lot of respect for their organization if they supported the guy who asked the question.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

No one addressed my other point so I will try again. Where do all you guys who are bashing Ireland stand on the questions that Gerhart faced?

“One team I interviewed with asked me about being a white running back…They asked if it made me feel entitled, or like I felt I was a poster child for white running backs. I said, ‘No, I’m just out there playing ball. I don’t think about that.’ I didn’t really know what to say.”

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_14928883

Where is all the hate for asking these questions?

I don't think those questions deserve bashing. I don't think they're offensive, either. I think they're pretty stupid (let's see if the kid from Stanford chooses a) I feel entitled or b) I want to work hard to prove myself) but I don't think the person who asked Gerhart that was out of line. I suppose I might feel differently if we knew that the interviewer wasn't white, but I haven't really thought about it.

Replace "white running back" with "black quarterback" and tell me we don't have a heated 55 page thread talking about it here on these forums. And I can guarantee you that guy would have been out of a job.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

3. If Tim Tebow was black and Juice Williams was white, I believe Williams would have been drafted as a strong-armed project with tons of potential but questionable decision making (and compared to Flacco...John Skelton, much?) and Tebow would be trying out for a camp opportunity. Tebow represents a lot of what our society and power structure (not our president, but the majority of our leaders in business and lots of government) feels comfortable with naturally on some level: white, Christian, earnest, hard-working, and reasonably well-spoken. Although if I think he were black and had that lisp, he'd probably have his intelligence questioned far more than he does as a white man. I believe Williams and Tebow both have NFL potential, but Tebow was taken too high and Williams not taken at all. Again, I believe this comes from biases people that often times they are not even aware of.

So this is pretty ridiculous. You don't think it has more to do with one of them being one of the nation's most highly regarded recruits who played in the national spotlight, lived up to every bit of the expectations thrown before him, won the heisman and two national championships, put up utterly gaudy stats against the best defenses in the nation, and finished with the second best quarterback rating of all time while the other one put up pedestrian numbers on a team that never did particularly well?Vince Young is about 60283472398742398 times more comparable to Tebow than Juice freakin' Williams is, and in case you've forgotten, he went 3rd overall.I don't disagree that people think Tebow is smarter than he really is because he's white (seriously, the dude sucks at reading defenses yet all anyone ever talks about is his throwing motion), but at the same time he put up basically record breaking numbers in the agility drills at the combine and people still talk about him as if he's some slow fatty, also because he's white.

 

[az_prof]

Seriously. No one on earth would go to a job interview an reasonably expect the boss to ask that question. The only place that would be asked is government with some level of security involved or maybe during military training. Football is not the military. No matter how violent and hard football is, half of these guys would be crying for their momma after basic training or the potential reality of getting tortured. There are only two reasons Ireland would ask this question: to see how Bryant deals with stress/confrontation or if they had suspicion this were a true situation. If it's a test, he could have done it another way if he were more intelligent. If it was a suspicion and it really mattered in some way, then don't pick him. Asking him isn't going to accomplish anything except diminish the respect people have for the questioner. That's not good leadership.

Have those of you who THINK this is ok ever conducted interviews? If so, I am astonished.

 

[Novice2]

No one addressed my other point so I will try again. Where do all you guys who are bashing Ireland stand on the questions that Gerhart faced?

“One team I interviewed with asked me about being a white running back…They asked if it made me feel entitled, or like I felt I was a poster child for white running backs. I said, ‘No, I’m just out there playing ball. I don’t think about that.’ I didn’t really know what to say.”

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_14928883

Where is all the hate for asking these questions?

I don't think those questions deserve bashing. I don't think they're offensive, either. I think they're pretty stupid (let's see if the kid from Stanford chooses a) I feel entitled or b) I want to work hard to prove myself) but I don't think the person who asked Gerhart that was out of line. I suppose I might feel differently if we knew that the interviewer wasn't white, but I haven't really thought about it.

Replace "white running back" with "black quarterback" and tell me we don't have a heated 55 page thread talking about it here on these forums. And I can guarantee you that guy would have been out of a job.

But they can keep their nice AM radio show.

 

[ookook]

I believe:

(a) A potential employer has the right to ask that question as long as they ask it of white and black players equally. (And it is reasonably to assume they might not).

(b) A player asked that question has every right to refuse to play for the organization and to announce why to the press.

© The organization has every right to discipline the interviewer for hurting their chances to recruit a top player and injuring their "brand".

THat is what I think "rights" are.

 

[Slinger]

Bunch of Jim Rome clones in this thread. J-RIB says it's the worst thing ever and you guys follow his lead.

It was just a question. You guys act like you know how the question was asked or why it was asked. The only one who knows are Jeff and Dez. I'm sure Jeff asked nicely, so stop acting like he's a villian. You weren't there.

Dez snitched and will be forever seen as such. That's a hard reputation to shake off.

Oh and where were you guys when this was reported 2 weeks ago?!? No one said a peep until they found out who asked it. I wonder why.

 

[Slinger]

(a) A potential employer has the right to ask that question as long as they ask it of white and black players equally.

Why are you bringing race into the mix?!? OMG, would this been okay had Mike Singletary asked him?!?

 

[ookook]

Because I think that questions are basically fine if everone is asked the same sort of thing. And because I believe a white player is less likely to be asked if his mother were a prostitute.

In other words, as long as you were to ask both black and white people the same question and were willing to live with the consequences (top applicants turning you down and word-of-mouth hurting future recruitment), it is okay.

But I think they would likely not have asked the same of white player and the negative consequences outweight the the probative value.

To me, the only moral or ethical question (versus good practice, different issue) is about disparate treatment. I am guessing no white player was asked same. Race of inteviewer is irrelevant.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Because I think that questions are basically fine if everone is asked the same sort of thing. And because I believe a white player is less likely to be asked if his mother were a prostitute.In other words, as long as you were to ask both black and white people the same question and were willing to live with the consequences (top applicants turning you down and word-of-mouth hurting future recruitment), it is okay.But I think they would likely not have asked the same of white player and the negative consequences outweight the the probative value.To me, the only moral or ethical question (versus good practice, different issue) is about disparate treatment. I am guessing no white player was asked same. Race of inteviewer is irrelevant.

So is there some stereotype that I'm unaware of where black women are more likely to be prostitutes? Dez's mother was brought into question because of her history, not her skin color. The only person openly discriminated against in regards to their skin color in this process was a white guy.

 

[JetMaxx]

It's no surprise that Ireland's question offended the overly sensitive middle and upper class among us. Most in this forum have no clue about street drugs, crack cocaine, $5 prostitution, etc. No ###### clue. I've seen that whole situation first hand destroy lives. I've seen it destroy amazing athletes. My hometown, pop of 12k, has produced multiple pro athletes. However the best, the very best of the best, never saw the fame and fortune their talent deserved. They were more talented than guys that went on to collegiate and professional elite, All Star games and NCAA championship status. They allowed the allurement of the street, the gansta life, the instant $$ take them away from what should have been.

With what I've experienced and seen first hand, let's say hypothetically I'm in Ireland's postion. I have a prospect in front of me that has clear and profound character and maturity issues. Would I have asked tough questions of a guy that has that background? **** right I would. A guy with that background needs to be asked those type of questions. My organization is going to give this immature guy with the mentality of a 13 yr old millions and his mom is crackhead? Yeah, I'm asking tough questions.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Most in this forum have no clue about street drugs, crack cocaine, $5 prostitution, etc. No ###### clue.

 

[=Smackdown=]

For the thin skinned moral crusader crowd . . .

The former NFL personnel director grooms them to be ready for anything because no subject is off the table -- not even questions about whether your mother is a hooker. "I don't feel there are any topics off-limits," Herock said Thursday afternoon. "If anybody thinks they're off-limits, put yourself in the eyes of an employer that's going to hire a 21-year-old and pay him $15 million or $20 million."

Herock finds nary a problem with the controversial question Miami Dolphins general manager Jeff Ireland posed to Oklahoma State receiver Dez Bryant in a pre-draft interview. "If somebody just comes out and says 'We hear your mom's a prostitute. Can you explain that situation to me?' I don't think there's anything offensive asking that question," Herock said. "There's a certain way to ask questions, and I think [ireland] asked with the wrong approach," Herock said. "But I would have prepared my player to answer that question to where it wouldn't be offensive to him.

"They already know about his family. They just want to see how he reacts and how he's going to explain it and how he's going to handle it.

"I don't think that question was out of line."

http://www.espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_...tion-off-limits

Seems to be common practice in today's NFL. Hope this doesn't ruin the days of the SHRM certified HR professionals we have here.

 

[fatness]

With what I've experienced and seen first hand, let's say hypothetically I'm in Ireland's postion. I have a prospect in front of me that has clear and profound character and maturity issues. Would I have asked tough questions of a guy that has that background? **** right I would. A guy with that background needs to be asked those type of questions. My organization is going to give this immature guy with the mentality of a 13 yr old millions and his mom is crackhead? Yeah, I'm asking tough questions.

Organizations preparing to pay a potential employee millions of dollars are quite able to afford to learn intelligent hiring questions, instead of playground-type insults.

 

[Jason Bourne]

As for the Tebow question - I bet a lot of teams asked some direct questions about his religious beliefs - more so than a typical player.

I doubt they asked about sex acts his mom performs.

With 15 minutes - you ask about any concerns you might have with an individual player.

 

[ChromeWeasel]

Seriously. No one on earth would go to a job interview an reasonably expect the boss to ask that question. The only place that would be asked is government with some level of security involved or maybe during military training. Football is not the military. No matter how violent and hard football is, half of these guys would be crying for their momma after basic training or the potential reality of getting tortured. There are only two reasons Ireland would ask this question: to see how Bryant deals with stress/confrontation or if they had suspicion this were a true situation. If it's a test, he could have done it another way if he were more intelligent. If it was a suspicion and it really mattered in some way, then don't pick him. Asking him isn't going to accomplish anything except diminish the respect people have for the questioner. That's not good leadership.

Have those of you who THINK this is ok ever conducted interviews? If so, I am astonished.

I have. And I interviewed for engineers making 6 figure salaries. Be as astonished as you want that I won't judge what was said in private, behind closed doors without knowing the whole context of the conversation.Frankly it disgusts me to see how judgemental people like you are when you don't even know the whole conversation.