Karlos Williams, RB (BUF) (1 Viewer)

[tone1oc]

If playing style can increase the chance of concussion, and I'm not a good judge of whose playing style leads to concussions, then players who have had concussions are more likely to have another one than players who haven't simply because, based on what little data I have, they're more likely to have a running style that leads to them.

It's fine to say that having had one doesn't necessarily mean you'll have another, because that is technically true, but it's also correct to say that it will, because it's functionally true.

I'd like to see some data on playing styles leading to concussions.. I'd bet that the data more closely correlates to position on the field instead of playing style. A third down running back likely has a smaller chance of suffering a concussion than a two down back that runs up the middle 10-15 times a game. I don't believe it has too much do with the differences in playing style but more so their different roles.

RBs/OL/DL/LB probably have the highest concussion rates because they are running into someone more often.

 

[flapgreen]

Soft melon. More carries = more chances to get another concussion. Which sucks because he looks like the second best back in this class.

This is actually a misconception people have a out concussions, and I dont know where it comes from. ESPN maybe? I dont know. When you get one concussion, as long as you recover, you are not at risk for future concussions. The most at risk time period is 10-14 days following an episode. After that you are no more at risk than yo were before you got your concussion. What puts people at a higher risk is their style of running, tackling, etch. If you lead with your head yeah you are at more risk.

I realize there is research out there demonstrating the likelihood of certain things but I just don't agree with that line of thinking. If you injure a body part, brain or otherwise, it's typically going to be more prone to future injury than someone who hasn't been injured. I don't get that information from espn. Doesn't make sense to me at all. Keep damaging the brain and it's going to be easier to damage in the future. Concussions make people more likely to have cognitive issues later in life but don't make them more prone to injure their brain again with future collisions? That doesn't sound consistent.

 

[flapgreen]

Soft melon. More carries = more chances to get another concussion. Which sucks because he looks like the second best back in this class.

This is actually a misconception people have a out concussions, and I dont know where it comes from. ESPN maybe? I dont know. When you get one concussion, as long as you recover, you are not at risk for future concussions. The most at risk time period is 10-14 days following an episode. After that you are no more at risk than yo were before you got your concussion. What puts people at a higher risk is their style of running, tackling, etch. If you lead with your head yeah you are at more risk.

Yeah but then message board tough-guys like Sabertooth wouldn't have anything to bluster about.

I can't speak for Sabertooth but people have the ability to think for themselves and draw their own conclusions. There are "experts" on both sides of most issues.

 

[flapgreen]

If playing style can increase the chance of concussion, and I'm not a good judge of whose playing style leads to concussions, then players who have had concussions are more likely to have another one than players who haven't simply because, based on what little data I have, they're more likely to have a running style that leads to them.

It's fine to say that having had one doesn't necessarily mean you'll have another, because that is technically true, but it's also correct to say that it will, because it's functionally true.

Injure your knee and see if it's not more prone to injury in the future. The brain is just another part of your body that can be injured as well. With the line of thinking being discussed, it makes more sense to think the running style itself makes a person more prone to injury due to the types of collisions they're taking, along with previous damage to the brain increasing the odds even further. Now that I'll go along with. If you're a running back with multiple Concussions with a style that makes you even more prone to Concussions, you're playing with fire.

 

[Short Corner]

If playing style can increase the chance of concussion, and I'm not a good judge of whose playing style leads to concussions, then players who have had concussions are more likely to have another one than players who haven't simply because, based on what little data I have, they're more likely to have a running style that leads to them.

It's fine to say that having had one doesn't necessarily mean you'll have another, because that is technically true, but it's also correct to say that it will, because it's functionally true.

Injure your knee and see if it's not more prone to injury in the future. The brain is just another part of your body that can be injured as well. With the line of thinking being discussed, it makes more sense to think the running style itself makes a person more prone to injury due to the types of collisions they're taking, along with previous damage to the brain increasing the odds even further. Now that I'll go along with. If you're a running back with multiple Concussions with a style that makes you even more prone to Concussions, you're playing with fire.

The structure of the knee (and other body parts) has a direct correlation to how well it can protect itself, therefore, once injured, unless completely healed (I believe they never 'fully' heal FTR) the liklihood of it being reinjured goes up. This isn't the same for the brain. If you get a brain bruise or concussion it doesn't affect the skulls ability to protect it in the future.

 

[bostonfred]

I agree with that. That seems to be the medical consensus. And assuming it is correct, then it's correct to say people who have had concussions are not more likely than anyone else to get another one.

But there's a second data point. People who hit their head hats are more likely to get concussions than people who aren't. I haven't hit a 250 pound linebacker with my head in years, nor been hit by one. I'm probably a lower concussion risk than most NFL players. Kickers and punters probably get fewer concussions than guys who tape or get tackled, and starters are probably at a higher risk than backups, just because they get hit in the head more.

It also stands to reason that guys who run out of bounds more often are less likely to get hurt than guys who get hit. Maybe tall guys get hit in the head less than short guys. Maybe guys with an upright running style get hit more or less than other guys. I don't know and I doubt I ever will.

If I only knew one thing about an NFL player - that he'd gotten a concussion recently - it would be correct to say he's a greater risk to get another one than a guy who had never had one. Not because he was medically more likely to get one from the same hit, but because his past history suggests that he takes the kinds of hits that cause concussions.

Maybe it was just a fluke that Karlos Williams got a bad concussion. He's not medically more likely to get one just because he got that one. But it's still valid to say he's a greater concussion risk than some random player, just like everyone in the pool of players whose playing style has led to a concussion is more likely to get one than I am.

 

[mnmplayer]

Soft melon. More carries = more chances to get another concussion. Which sucks because he looks like the second best back in this class.

This is actually a misconception people have a out concussions, and I dont know where it comes from. ESPN maybe? I dont know. When you get one concussion, as long as you recover, you are not at risk for future concussions. The most at risk time period is 10-14 days following an episode. After that you are no more at risk than yo were before you got your concussion. What puts people at a higher risk is their style of running, tackling, etch. If you lead with your head yeah you are at more risk.

Tell that to Jahvid Best. He got so many concussions from HS to college that by the time he got to the NFL he just fell down without taking a big hit *concussed*, I mean just falling down on his own he was concussing himself. Think about that for a second. I had him on my team and watched every play. At the end he was getting concussed on routine plays you wouldn't think it even had a chance to damage the brain. That is why he had to quit. Also there is more and more data to show that even on normal plays the brain gets damaged. The brain wasn't designed for long term football.

Bottom line once you get issues with recovery which we have already seen with Karlos its more not less likely that he will be affected by concussions going forward, especially coming off a 1 month protocol.

Lets say he gets concussed next week. He will be out more than likely another month at least, if not longer. Not a guy I would want to be a bell cow at this point. Maybe he will never get concussed again, I guess there is a chance of that, but then again maybe Arian foster will never pull his groin again.

 

[flapgreen]

If playing style can increase the chance of concussion, and I'm not a good judge of whose playing style leads to concussions, then players who have had concussions are more likely to have another one than players who haven't simply because, based on what little data I have, they're more likely to have a running style that leads to them.

It's fine to say that having had one doesn't necessarily mean you'll have another, because that is technically true, but it's also correct to say that it will, because it's functionally true.

Injure your knee and see if it's not more prone to injury in the future. The brain is just another part of your body that can be injured as well. With the line of thinking being discussed, it makes more sense to think the running style itself makes a person more prone to injury due to the types of collisions they're taking, along with previous damage to the brain increasing the odds even further. Now that I'll go along with. If you're a running back with multiple Concussions with a style that makes you even more prone to Concussions, you're playing with fire.

The structure of the knee (and other body parts) has a direct correlation to how well it can protect itself, therefore, once injured, unless completely healed (I believe they never 'fully' heal FTR) the liklihood of it being reinjured goes up. This isn't the same for the brain. If you get a brain bruise or concussion it doesn't affect the skulls ability to protect it in the future.

I understand the body and the differences between a joint and the brain. Skull protecting the brain or soft tissue in other areas of the body, if you damage them enough, they're more prone to future and more severe injuries. Simple as I can put it. Thinking one or two concussions don't make it more likely to have 3 or 4 is wishful thinking imo. There's no way to show that running styles make players more prone to concussions yet previous concussions have no effect on increasing likelihood of further concussions.

 

[flapgreen]

Soft melon. More carries = more chances to get another concussion. Which sucks because he looks like the second best back in this class.

This is actually a misconception people have a out concussions, and I dont know where it comes from. ESPN maybe? I dont know. When you get one concussion, as long as you recover, you are not at risk for future concussions. The most at risk time period is 10-14 days following an episode. After that you are no more at risk than yo were before you got your concussion. What puts people at a higher risk is their style of running, tackling, etch. If you lead with your head yeah you are at more risk.

Tell that to Jahvid Best. He got so many concussions from HS to college that by the time he got to the NFL he just fell down without taking a big hit *concussed*, I mean just falling down on his own he was concussing himself. Think about that for a second. I had him on my team and watched every play. At the end he was getting concussed on routine plays you wouldn't think it even had a chance to damage the brain. That is why he had to quit. Also there is more and more data to show that even on normal plays the brain gets damaged. The brain wasn't designed for long term football.Bottom line once you get issues with recovery which we have already seen with Karlos its more not less likely that he will be affected by concussions going forward, especially coming off a 1 month protocol.

Lets say he gets concussed next week. He will be out more than likely another month at least, if not longer. Not a guy I would want to be a bell cow at this point. Maybe he will never get concussed again, I guess there is a chance of that, but then again maybe Arian foster will never pull his groin again.

If you look at what some are preaching now, it would be blamed on Best's "running style" and not his previous concussions? I'm sorry but I won't ever go along with that line of thinking. You can make research say whatever you want it to. It's as plain as day to me.

 

[Short Corner]

If playing style can increase the chance of concussion, and I'm not a good judge of whose playing style leads to concussions, then players who have had concussions are more likely to have another one than players who haven't simply because, based on what little data I have, they're more likely to have a running style that leads to them.

It's fine to say that having had one doesn't necessarily mean you'll have another, because that is technically true, but it's also correct to say that it will, because it's functionally true.

Injure your knee and see if it's not more prone to injury in the future. The brain is just another part of your body that can be injured as well. With the line of thinking being discussed, it makes more sense to think the running style itself makes a person more prone to injury due to the types of collisions they're taking, along with previous damage to the brain increasing the odds even further. Now that I'll go along with. If you're a running back with multiple Concussions with a style that makes you even more prone to Concussions, you're playing with fire.

The structure of the knee (and other body parts) has a direct correlation to how well it can protect itself, therefore, once injured, unless completely healed (I believe they never 'fully' heal FTR) the liklihood of it being reinjured goes up. This isn't the same for the brain. If you get a brain bruise or concussion it doesn't affect the skulls ability to protect it in the future.

I understand the body and the differences between a joint and the brain. Skull protecting the brain or soft tissue in other areas of the body, if you damage them enough, they're more prone to future and more severe injuries. Simple as I can put it. Thinking one or two concussions don't make it more likely to have 3 or 4 is wishful thinking imo. There's no way to show that running styles make players more prone to concussions yet previous concussions have no effect on increasing likelihood of further concussions.

I'm not arguing the former, I am claimig the latter. There is zero evidence to support your conclusion.

 

[DropKick]

If playing style can increase the chance of concussion, and I'm not a good judge of whose playing style leads to concussions, then players who have had concussions are more likely to have another one than players who haven't simply because, based on what little data I have, they're more likely to have a running style that leads to them.

It's fine to say that having had one doesn't necessarily mean you'll have another, because that is technically true, but it's also correct to say that it will, because it's functionally true.

Williams' first concussion was from a car accident - not football.... for the record.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Good profile and background article

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/sports/football/nfl/bills/2015/11/21/karlos-williams-pays-big-dividends-bills/76122762/

​

 

[Raider Nation]

This guy won the game for me in my Point-Per-Block league!

 

[VikingFrog]

The streak is dead! This guys garbage! Drop him. He sucksers.

I've still only started him in his lone game where he played without Shady. But still holding onto him as I'm a Shady owner.

 

[mnmplayer]

I was only able to see bits and pieces of the game, It was on at a friends house with wives and kids running around ... but I was pretty sure I saw K. Williams blocking for Shady on his score, and also saw them at least 1 other time on the field together. I've been entertaining the idea of multiple pass catching RBs in the backfield for a time with my buddies and it was cool to see that. I always thought if you lined up pro-set with both backs to the flat on opposite sides with a TE going down the seam and WRs going deep how it would be nearly impossible to stop the dump off 5y-15y gains. It also helps if at least one of the RBs can block as with K. Williams so you can change it up and have a lead blocker at opportune times when they bring in nickel or dime. I don't credit the head coach Rex Ryan for anything other than defense, but if this was his idea Kudos to him. He kept it close with an inferior team thinking outside the box. With so many teams out there with multiple pass catching backs like Jamaal Charles, Sharc West, Shady/Williams etc. I don't know why we don't see this more often. You don't have to be a top line blocker to block a DB and the flexibility of having two pass catching RBs creates not one but two mismatches with LBs. I hope to see more of it. It could help both Shady and Karlos if they are both on the field instead of some crappy #2 or #3 WR.

 

[kOOk]

That was a bailout TD last night where two defenders screwed up but I'll certainly take it. He wasn't close to getting one on the ground and McCoy isn't going anywhere and in fact looked great. Now Shady gets extra rest to boot. As good as Karlos is, it will be a crapshoot from here on out unless McCoy goes down.

I wouldn't get too excited unless we are talking dynasty. Then you're set, he's the real deal.

Karlos is not a crapshoot. He is going to get 50-60 yards with a good chance for a TD. Bills offense can support both of them and Karlos is getting plenty of RZ work.

Disagree. You can't just pencil him in for that and saying he has a good chance at a TD is also overly optimistic. And if he doesn't get that TD you're counting on, then what? You get your clunker. You're basically counting on the TD's to keep coming. Careful with that.

The Bills also might not be in every game, allowing the run so much. 4 of their next 6 are on the road and they're not the Patriots. It most certainly is a crapshoot.

No its not. Right now his TD/Game ratio is 100%

OMG no way REALLY? Nobody knew this and no regression is plausible. TD's are guarantees. Thanks, I'm going to trade for him now while his stock is so low.

go for it

So how'd that brilliant TD/Game ratio prognostication work out for you my friend?

 

[sho nuff]

That was a bailout TD last night where two defenders screwed up but I'll certainly take it. He wasn't close to getting one on the ground and McCoy isn't going anywhere and in fact looked great. Now Shady gets extra rest to boot. As good as Karlos is, it will be a crapshoot from here on out unless McCoy goes down.

I wouldn't get too excited unless we are talking dynasty. Then you're set, he's the real deal.

Karlos is not a crapshoot. He is going to get 50-60 yards with a good chance for a TD. Bills offense can support both of them and Karlos is getting plenty of RZ work.

Disagree. You can't just pencil him in for that and saying he has a good chance at a TD is also overly optimistic. And if he doesn't get that TD you're counting on, then what? You get your clunker. You're basically counting on the TD's to keep coming. Careful with that.

The Bills also might not be in every game, allowing the run so much. 4 of their next 6 are on the road and they're not the Patriots. It most certainly is a crapshoot.

No its not. Right now his TD/Game ratio is 100%

OMG no way REALLY? Nobody knew this and no regression is plausible. TD's are guarantees. Thanks, I'm going to trade for him now while his stock is so low.

go for it

So how'd that brilliant TD/Game ratio prognostication work out for you my friend?

Do you keep a notebook of your posts and then go thru it each Monday/Tuesday so you can post a bunch of told ya so?

 

[kOOk]

Yep as a matter of fact I do. And guess who resides atop the "DO NOT LISTEN TO" list? It's you, sho nuff. No offense intended but you in particular, have been awful.

 

[sho nuff]

Yep as a matter of fact I do. And guess who resides atop the "DO NOT LISTEN TO" list? It's you, sho nuff. No offense intended but you in particular, have been awful.

If you say so...enjoy your trolling.

 

[Faust]

Karlos Williams knocked out of game in first quarter

 

[Interseptopus]

Karlos Williams knocked out of game in first quarter

First the concussion, which took him a while to recover from in my medical opinion, now this. Must be his style of run. For his sake I hope he can figure it out and have a good career. As an owner of both I'm appreciating the sudden jump in value and play McCoy has given the last couple of weeks. Just in time for fantasy playoffs

 

[flapgreen]

Style of run is the problem but not his history. Smh

 

[Raider Nation]

Yeah, this party train has crashed. Fun while it lasted.

 

[kOOk]

That was a bailout TD last night where two defenders screwed up but I'll certainly take it. He wasn't close to getting one on the ground and McCoy isn't going anywhere and in fact looked great. Now Shady gets extra rest to boot. As good as Karlos is, it will be a crapshoot from here on out unless McCoy goes down.

I wouldn't get too excited unless we are talking dynasty. Then you're set, he's the real deal.

Karlos is not a crapshoot. He is going to get 50-60 yards with a good chance for a TD. Bills offense can support both of them and Karlos is getting plenty of RZ work.

Disagree. You can't just pencil him in for that and saying he has a good chance at a TD is also overly optimistic. And if he doesn't get that TD you're counting on, then what? You get your clunker. You're basically counting on the TD's to keep coming. Careful with that.

The Bills also might not be in every game, allowing the run so much. 4 of their next 6 are on the road and they're not the Patriots. It most certainly is a crapshoot.

No its not. Right now his TD/Game ratio is 100%

OMG no way REALLY? Nobody knew this and no regression is plausible. TD's are guarantees. Thanks, I'm going to trade for him now while his stock is so low.

go for it

So how'd that brilliant TD/Game ratio prognostication work out for you my friend?

Do you keep a notebook of your posts and then go thru it each Monday/Tuesday so you can post a bunch of told ya so?

TD/Game ratio is not holding up lately. I can't figure out what's wrong.

 

[humpback]

Mike RodakESPN Staff Writer Bills RB Karlos Williams (shoulder) is wearing a sling in the locker room Tuesday.

1d

 

[Tool]

anyone know his status for next week? i'm in a league w/ no pickups in the playoffs and i'm desperate.

 

[beerbuff]

anyone know his status for next week? i'm in a league w/ no pickups in the playoffs and i'm desperate.

If no pickups you have nothing to worry about since you can't do a thing about him probably being lost for the year.

 

[Faust]

Rotoworld:

Karlos Williams - RB - Bills

Bills coach Rex Ryan said Monday that Karlos Williams (shoulder) came out of Sunday's game "sore," but "he finished" and "that's a good sign."

Williams missed Weeks 13-14 with a shoulder injury. The Bills' website says Williams "apparently came out of the game no worse for the wear." Williams logged just four carries among 11 snaps in Sunday's loss to the Redskins. Mike Gillislee finished with two more touches and played more than Williams. They figure to form a committee with LeSean McCoy nursing an MCL tear.

Source: buffalobills.com

Dec 21 - 10:01 PM

 

[bolldpt]

So what's the thoughts on Gillislee vs Karlos this next week? I didn't see the game , just looking at box score. Gillislee looks like pretty good stats and not wounded.

 

[5-ish Finkle]

Gillislee really had one big run. Williams still looked to be being babied.

I expect they'll split the work, but practice/the Buffalo beat writers will need to be monitored this week.

 

[Team Smokin']

Gillislee really had one big run. Williams still looked to be being babied.

I expect they'll split the work, but practice/the Buffalo beat writers will need to be monitored this week.

Monitor this one is correct. My gut says Williams will be more healthy and a difference maker as they evaluate what they have. The split might be like 65/35 Karlos and if he's hot, they'll ride him. Karlos has a tendency to find the endzone. If he's not healthy all bets are off.

 

[packersfan]

Gillislee really had one big run. Williams still looked to be being babied.

I expect they'll split the work, but practice/the Buffalo beat writers will need to be monitored this week.

Monitor this one is correct. My gut says Williams will be more healthy and a difference maker as they evaluate what they have. The split might be like 65/35 Karlos and if he's hot, they'll ride him. Karlos has a tendency to find the endzone. If he's not healthy all bets are off.

Of the likely RBs on Waiver Wires this week Williams, if healthy, is the strongest one for TD potential. Not sure anyone else comes close. Even as a backup he was scoring every week for a long time.

 

[stbugs]

Gillislee really had one big run. Williams still looked to be being babied.

I expect they'll split the work, but practice/the Buffalo beat writers will need to be monitored this week.

Monitor this one is correct. My gut says Williams will be more healthy and a difference maker as they evaluate what they have. The split might be like 65/35 Karlos and if he's hot, they'll ride him. Karlos has a tendency to find the endzone. If he's not healthy all bets are off.

Now that Buffalo is out, any chance they don't want to risk Williams as much?

 

[packersfan]

Gillislee really had one big run. Williams still looked to be being babied.

I expect they'll split the work, but practice/the Buffalo beat writers will need to be monitored this week.

Monitor this one is correct. My gut says Williams will be more healthy and a difference maker as they evaluate what they have. The split might be like 65/35 Karlos and if he's hot, they'll ride him. Karlos has a tendency to find the endzone. If he's not healthy all bets are off.

Now that Buffalo is out, any chance they don't want to risk Williams as much?

No way of knowing what Rex will ever do but if it was me I'd wanna feature Williams exclusively to find out for sure what we have in case anything more happens to Shady.

 

[One]

Karlos Williams looked very good on his runs. I was satisfied.

However, with about 3:40 left in the 4th, he ran for 16, got up, pointed at his shoulder as he ran to the sideline. Took himself out of the game.

 

[bolldpt]

Any word on Gillislee or Williams? Any word on practice by Williams ? I haven't heard any news on them playing this week

 

[Don't Toews Me]

Any word on Gillislee or Williams? Any word on practice by Williams ? I haven't heard any news on them playing this week

I believe I heard Williams got in a limited session today.

 

[DropKick]

Gillislee really had one big run. Williams still looked to be being babied.

I expect they'll split the work, but practice/the Buffalo beat writers will need to be monitored this week.

Monitor this one is correct. My gut says Williams will be more healthy and a difference maker as they evaluate what they have. The split might be like 65/35 Karlos and if he's hot, they'll ride him. Karlos has a tendency to find the endzone. If he's not healthy all bets are off.

Now that Buffalo is out, any chance they don't want to risk Williams as much?

No way of knowing what Rex will ever do but if it was me I'd wanna feature Williams exclusively to find out for sure what we have in case anything more happens to Shady.

I think you're over estimating the value (and need) of this... I was hoping to plug in Karlos this week but with question marks about his health and the chance of leaving a game early, I think I'll pass.

 

[dirtyjay]

If Rex plays a guy like Gillessee over Williams. I will understand how he lost the locker room, he is not a good coach.

Rex has been known to make horrible decisions.

How do failed coaches like this at other jobs keep getting recycled. Get the Ryans out of the league.

 

[bolldpt]

I think the health of Karlos plays into that decision. He is dinged which could play into the use of Gillislee. That's the concerning thing here. Karlos could start and then like last game pull himself out due to shoulder.

 

[Poncho]

I think the health of Karlos plays into that decision. He is dinged which could play into the use of Gillislee. That's the concerning thing here. Karlos could start and then like last game pull himself out due to shoulder.

I don't trust this guy one bit. The only league I am starting Karlos I am starting Gillslee as well. Hate to use 2 rb's for one team but without OBJ I don't have a lot of options....

 

[bolldpt]

I think the health of Karlos plays into that decision. He is dinged which could play into the use of Gillislee. That's the concerning thing here. Karlos could start and then like last game pull himself out due to shoulder.

I don't trust this guy one bit. The only league I am starting Karlos I am starting Gillslee as well. Hate to use 2 rb's for one team but without OBJ I don't have a lot of options....

Well with the matchup they have, could be a decent play, but ya I would hate to play 2 RBs from one team as well.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

If Rex plays a guy like Gillessee over Williams. I will understand how he lost the locker room, he is not a good coach.

Rex has been known to make horrible decisions.

How do failed coaches like this at other jobs keep getting recycled. Get the Ryans out of the league.

Lmfao

 

[Poncho]

I think the health of Karlos plays into that decision. He is dinged which could play into the use of Gillislee. That's the concerning thing here. Karlos could start and then like last game pull himself out due to shoulder.

I don't trust this guy one bit. The only league I am starting Karlos I am starting Gillslee as well. Hate to use 2 rb's for one team but without OBJ I don't have a lot of options....

Well with the matchup they have, could be a decent play, but ya I would hate to play 2 RBs from one team as well.

karlos doesn't like playing hurt, one hit and that dude will be running to the sidelines. I am hoping they both score tho.....

 

[Kwai Chang Caine]

I'm tempted to start him over Latavious who's been immensely underwhelming. But I'm concerned if this guy takes himself out easily.

 

[jbradford787]

Started him over Miller. It was announced he would start. Gillislee gets the first carries...

 

[Twenty-Four Eighty-Four]

Started him over Miller. It was announced he would start. Gillislee gets the first carries...

I expect an even split which could be enough.

 

[zed2283]

Gillislee started and got the first three carries...

 

[jbradford787]

Gillislee started and got the first three carries...

This just pisses me off.

 

[CR69]

FML