Lebron James will never win a championship... (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

Lol

Sorry I didn't include Dwight Howard.

 

[timschochet]

I still got Wilt as #1, but Lebron has risen to #2.

1. Wilt Chamberlain

2. Lebron James

3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar

4. Michael Jordan

5. Magic Johnson

6. Shaquille O' Neil

7. Larry Bird

8. Kobe Bryant

9. Tim Duncan

10. Bill Russell- Oscar Robertson TIE

Kobeta over Our Lord Duncan? You trippin.

Kobe won with less talent (his 4th and 5th championship.) Duncan was part of the best team ever, in terms of playing together.

 

[timschochet]

Proof that Tim is full shtick.

I don't know why you would think that. It's not exactly an outrageous top 10.

 

[timschochet]

Jordan #4? Nice.

I've moved him up in recent years. I think very highly of him.

 

[Tau837]

Top 10 all time:

Jordan

Lebron

Kareem

Wilt

Magic

Duncan

Russell

Bird

Oscar

Shaq

 

[Jayrod]

Top 10 all time:

Jordan

Lebron

Kareem

Wilt

Magic

Duncan

Russell

Bird

Oscar

Shaq

Magics too high and Bird too low. Otherwise good list.

 

[Anarchy99]

I think part of the reason LeBron has gotten to the finals as often as he has stems from him playing in the East. The West has been clearly the better conference for quite a while. In LeBron's 6 seasons where his team advanced to the finals, three times there was only one other team in the East with 50 wins with a max of 4 teams with 50 wins. By comparison, in the West, there have always been at least 5 teams with 50 wins and the past two years there were 7 teams with at least 50 wins.

Since we can't rewrite history, we will never know what would have happened if LeBron played in the West, but it would likely have been a tougher road to the finals than it has been playing in the East. Maybe he still would have had just as many finals appearances, but at first blush I would be inclined to think he wouldn't.

What about Jordan's title run? Expansion teams galore, diluted talent, he played weak teams from the West (imo).

Here were the combined regular season winning percentages for the playoff teams they faced in each of the years they advanced to the finals . . .

Jordan

1997 .652

1996 .686

1995 .649

1992 .668

1991 .619

1990 .582

Total .643

James

2014 .662

2013 .625

2012 .579

2011 .621

2010 .659

2006 .588

Total .622

 

[Capella]

Lol

Sorry I didn't include Dwight Howard.

I hate Dwight almost as much as I hate your dumb posts.

 

[Insein]

I think part of the reason LeBron has gotten to the finals as often as he has stems from him playing in the East. The West has been clearly the better conference for quite a while. In LeBron's 6 seasons where his team advanced to the finals, three times there was only one other team in the East with 50 wins with a max of 4 teams with 50 wins. By comparison, in the West, there have always been at least 5 teams with 50 wins and the past two years there were 7 teams with at least 50 wins.

Since we can't rewrite history, we will never know what would have happened if LeBron played in the West, but it would likely have been a tougher road to the finals than it has been playing in the East. Maybe he still would have had just as many finals appearances, but at first blush I would be inclined to think he wouldn't.

What about Jordan's title run? Expansion teams galore, diluted talent, he played weak teams from the West (imo).

Here were the combined regular season winning percentages for the playoff teams they faced in each of the years they advanced to the finals . . .Jordan

1997 .652

1996 .686

1995 .649

1992 .668

1991 .619

1990 .582

Total .643

James

2014 .662

2013 .625

2012 .579

2011 .621

2010 .659

2006 .588

Total .622

All that proves is that the bottom was worse in Jordan's day. A lot more bad teams to breeze through in the season for the mediocre teams to pad wins against.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Jordan

Kareem

Wilt

Russell

Duncan

LeBron

Magic

Bird

Shaq

West

 

[JMon348]

My tiers:

Jordan

Russell

Kareem

Magic

Kobe

Duncan

Lebron

Wilt

Bird

Shaq

Tiers are not in order. Lebron jumps to the Jordan level if he wins this.

 

[Anarchy99]

I think part of the reason LeBron has gotten to the finals as often as he has stems from him playing in the East. The West has been clearly the better conference for quite a while. In LeBron's 6 seasons where his team advanced to the finals, three times there was only one other team in the East with 50 wins with a max of 4 teams with 50 wins. By comparison, in the West, there have always been at least 5 teams with 50 wins and the past two years there were 7 teams with at least 50 wins.

Since we can't rewrite history, we will never know what would have happened if LeBron played in the West, but it would likely have been a tougher road to the finals than it has been playing in the East. Maybe he still would have had just as many finals appearances, but at first blush I would be inclined to think he wouldn't.

What about Jordan's title run? Expansion teams galore, diluted talent, he played weak teams from the West (imo).

Here were the combined regular season winning percentages for the playoff teams they faced in each of the years they advanced to the finals . . .Jordan

1997 .652

1996 .686

1995 .649

1992 .668

1991 .619

1990 .582

Total .643

James

2014 .662

2013 .625

2012 .579

2011 .621

2010 .659

2006 .588

Total .622

All that proves is that the bottom was worse in Jordan's day. A lot more bad teams to breeze through in the season for the mediocre teams to pad wins against.

Total number of teams with fewer than 30 wins in Jordan's 6 seasons to the finals: 40. Total number of teams with fewer than 30 wins in James' seasons to the finals: 39.

The bottom feeder teams have been equally bad no matter what the era. In fact, lately there have been more crappy teams, not fewer. In 2011, 2012, and 2013, there were 8 teams with fewer than 30 wins. So your argument that good teams padded win totals playing against the bad teams should have made recent teams have even better regular season records.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Lol

Sorry I didn't include Dwight Howard.

I hate Dwight almost as much as I hate your dumb posts.

Sorry he didn't include Darrell Armstrong.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

So how much demerit does LeBron deserve for playing in such an easy era? What's the proper adjustment? Does LeBron only deserve credit for 3 Finals appearances and one title in 1990s dollars? Does the rest of the roster, including coaching staff, matter in this calculation?

 

[timschochet]

So how much demerit does LeBron deserve for playing in such an easy era? What's the proper adjustment? Does LeBron only deserve credit for 3 Finals appearances and one title in 1990s dollars? Does the rest of the roster, including coaching staff, matter in this calculation?

Easy era?

 

[Long Ball Larry]

My top 10:

Chamberlain

Abdul-Jabbar

Magic

Kobe

West

Baylor

Worthy

Mikan

Goodrich

Rambis

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

So how much demerit does LeBron deserve for playing in such an easy era? What's the proper adjustment? Does LeBron only deserve credit for 3 Finals appearances and one title in 1990s dollars? Does the rest of the roster, including coaching staff, matter in this calculation?

Easy era?

I'm trying to fast-forward to the end of the argument Anarchy99 is making to try to figure out the consequences of it.

 

[timschochet]

My top 10:

Chamberlain

Abdul-Jabbar

Magic

Kobe

West

Baylor

Worthy

Mikan

Goodrich

Rambis

I like it!

 

[igbomb]

41%, 38%, 35%

Clearly, unless one shoots as well as Curry or Korver from three, they are not a legitimate 3 pt shooter

He's one of the best shooters in the league from the elbows, too.He's played 45 fewer career playoff minutes than Jordan. In the postseason, MJ and LBJ's eFG% and TS% are pretty much equal. LeBron has slight edge on eFG% because he shoots twos so well, TS% is pretty much a dead heat with Jordan's edge shooting ones. Keep in mind that a lot of Jordan's 3PTA volume was when the league moved the three-point line in over a foot for a couple years.

There is no way in hell anyone here is going to take Lebron over MJ or Kobe from midrange to 3's and post it with a straight face.

Jordan career 3-point % - 32.7%

Bryant career 3-point % - 33.4%

James career 3-point % - 34.2%

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Revised top 10:

Wilt Chamberlain

Paul Pierce

JoJo White

Clyde Lovellette

Kirk Hinrich

Danny Manning

Bill Bridges

Drew Gooden

Mario Chalmers

Raef LaFrentz

 

[hxperson]

My tiers:

Jordan

Russell

Kareem

Magic

Kobe

Duncan

Lebron

Wilt

Bird

Shaq

Tiers are not in order. Lebron jumps to the Jordan level if he wins this.

You forgot Robert Horry on your list

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Revised top 10:

Wilt Chamberlain

Paul Pierce

JoJo White

Clyde Lovellette

Kirk Hinrich

Danny Manning

Bill Bridges

Drew Gooden

Mario Chalmers

Raef LaFrentz

you missed Jordan.

(Adonis, that is.)

 

[TobiasFunke]

41%, 38%, 35%

Clearly, unless one shoots as well as Curry or Korver from three, they are not a legitimate 3 pt shooter

He's one of the best shooters in the league from the elbows, too.He's played 45 fewer career playoff minutes than Jordan. In the postseason, MJ and LBJ's eFG% and TS% are pretty much equal. LeBron has slight edge on eFG% because he shoots twos so well, TS% is pretty much a dead heat with Jordan's edge shooting ones. Keep in mind that a lot of Jordan's 3PTA volume was when the league moved the three-point line in over a foot for a couple years.

There is no way in hell anyone here is going to take Lebron over MJ or Kobe from midrange to 3's and post it with a straight face.

Jordan career 3-point % - 32.7%

Bryant career 3-point % - 33.4%

James career 3-point % - 34.2%

And James' number includes his early seasons when he was mediocre from long range. He's made himself into a much better shooter from long range since the move to Miami, although he did slip back to 35.4% this year. If you assume he plays until he's 36 or so and shoots close to the numbers he's been at since his mid-20s (I believe most guys improve their shooting stroke during those years) this won't even be close.

But Bryant and Jordan were much better than James in other facets of the game. Like, umm ... free throw shooting. There's one where he doesn't compare well. I knew we could find one if we looked hard enough!

 

[Anarchy99]

So how much demerit does LeBron deserve for playing in such an easy era? What's the proper adjustment? Does LeBron only deserve credit for 3 Finals appearances and one title in 1990s dollars? Does the rest of the roster, including coaching staff, matter in this calculation?

Easy era?

I'm trying to fast-forward to the end of the argument Anarchy99 is making to try to figure out the consequences of it.

He gets full credit. You get credit for what it says in the record book. My only point was he probably would not have been to six finals had he played his whole career in the West

I only listed the stuff from Jordan's teams because someone else suggested teams had better records in the 90's because they played against some crappy teams.

There is no shortage of crappy teams in this era, so to me that part is a push.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Revised top 10:

Wilt Chamberlain

Paul Pierce

JoJo White

Clyde Lovellette

Kirk Hinrich

Danny Manning

Bill Bridges

Drew Gooden

Mario Chalmers

Raef LaFrentz

you missed Jordan.

(Adonis, that is.)

Good point. Bill Bridges played in a much less competitive era. Drop Bridges, move Gooden-Chalmers-Raef up one spot each, and insert Adonis Jordan in at #10.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Revised top 10:

Wilt Chamberlain

Paul Pierce

JoJo White

Clyde Lovellette

Kirk Hinrich

Danny Manning

Bill Bridges

Drew Gooden

Mario Chalmers

Raef LaFrentz

you missed Jordan.

(Adonis, that is.)

• Bruce Dickinson likes this

This post broke my model for probability of receiving a like.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

So how much demerit does LeBron deserve for playing in such an easy era? What's the proper adjustment? Does LeBron only deserve credit for 3 Finals appearances and one title in 1990s dollars? Does the rest of the roster, including coaching staff, matter in this calculation?

Easy era?

I'm trying to fast-forward to the end of the argument Anarchy99 is making to try to figure out the consequences of it.

He gets full credit. You get credit for what it says in the record book. My only point was he probably would not have been to six finals had he played his whole career in the West

So LeBron doesn't deserve full credit because he played in the easy conference?

 

[Jayrod]

My tiers:

Jordan

Russell

Kareem

Magic

Kobe

Duncan

Lebron

Wilt

Bird

Shaq

Tiers are not in order. Lebron jumps to the Jordan level if he wins this.

Racist.

 

[Anarchy99]

So how much demerit does LeBron deserve for playing in such an easy era? What's the proper adjustment? Does LeBron only deserve credit for 3 Finals appearances and one title in 1990s dollars? Does the rest of the roster, including coaching staff, matter in this calculation?

Easy era?

I'm trying to fast-forward to the end of the argument Anarchy99 is making to try to figure out the consequences of it.

He gets full credit. You get credit for what it says in the record book. My only point was he probably would not have been to six finals had he played his whole career in the West

So LeBron doesn't deserve full credit because he played in the easy conference?

????Not sure where you are going with this. Yes he gets full credit. IMO he would not have gone to six finals had he played in the West.

If Oscar Robertson played on the Celtics instead, he would have won more titles. What are you trying to get me to say?

 

[thecatch]

Is it really that controversial to say it's less likely Lebron walks to 5 consecutive conference titles in the West?

 

[TobiasFunke]

Is it really that controversial to say it's less likely Lebron walks to 5 consecutive conference titles in the West?

Depends what team he's on. What if we put him on the Spurs?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Is it really that controversial to say it's less likely Lebron walks to 5 consecutive conference titles in the West?

Yes.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Did someone actually place Wilt in the 3rd tier?

 

[Jayrod]

Did someone actually place Wilt in the 3rd tier?

And Bird. Under Kobe.

He has Kobe as his avatar, though...so there's that.

 

[Bobcat10]

Of course alot of these questions are impossible to answer. My suggestion was Jordan winning 6, let alone going 6/6, had something, maybe alot, to do with the 90's NBA. I'm a downer on that era in general, many probably feel opposite.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Of course alot of these questions are impossible to answer. My suggestion was Jordan winning 6, let alone going 6/6, had something, maybe alot, to do with the 90's NBA. I'm a downer on that era in general, many probably feel opposite.

possibly. He beat the pistons finally in his third try in 1990/1991. in that finals he also beat the Magic lakers.

That Suns team he played in 1993 was loaded. I think seeing a Houston/Bulls finals in 94/95 would of been really good.

In general the East was pretty weak from 1991- 1998, really the Knicks & Magic were his only competition.

In the finals the Jazz had two future HOF players in Stockton and Malone. And that Sonics team was very good.

This current east conference that LeBron is owning is very very weak, Atl? Chicago? Indiana?

LeBron losing that finals to Dallas probably shouldn't of happened to be honest, the Heat were better, but Dirk & Terry were on fire. No shame in losing to the Spurs either, the OKC team was really good but haven't been able to re-capture their glory since trading away Hardin.

 

[Peyton Marino]

I still got Wilt as #1, but Lebron has risen to #2.

1. Wilt Chamberlain

2. Lebron James

3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar

4. Michael Jordan

5. Magic Johnson

6. Shaquille O' Neil

7. Larry Bird

8. Kobe Bryant

9. Tim Duncan

10. Bill Russell- Oscar Robertson TIE

lomfl

 

[thecatch]

Is it really that controversial to say it's less likely Lebron walks to 5 consecutive conference titles in the West?

Depends what team he's on. What if we put him on the Spurs?

I agree he walks to the finals every year on the Spurs.

On this year's Cavs team I'd say it's less likely.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Of course alot of these questions are impossible to answer. My suggestion was Jordan winning 6, let alone going 6/6, had something, maybe alot, to do with the 90's NBA. I'm a downer on that era in general, many probably feel opposite.

There's an argument that the Pistons teams that kept Jordan out of the Finals initially would have had a longer run had they not lost players in the expansion drafts. Highly unlikely the Pistons lose Rick Mahorn, a key figure in their locker room and still a contributor on the court.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Is it really that controversial to say it's less likely Lebron walks to 5 consecutive conference titles in the West?

Depends what team he's on. What if we put him on the Spurs?

I agree he walks to the finals every year on the Spurs.

On this year's Cavs team I'd say it's less likely.

What if we move the Cavs to the West but move the Spurs to the East? Someone's gotta move.

My point is that it's a more complicated question than simply asking "what if LeBron played in the West?" because even if the conferences were perfectly balanced before this hypothetical move, putting a great team from one conference in the other conference without a corresponding move is going to create an imbalance.

And it doesn't really matter that much anyway. Assuming a team with LeBron is usually going to be good enough to get a sub-50 win team that isn't really a threat in the first round regardless of opponent, we're really just talking about facing a bigger threat in the Conference semis and finals ... and then a correspondingly lesser threat in the Finals. So if we put the Cavs in the West and say the Hornets/Pelicans in the East, LeBron maybe makes it to 4 or 5 Finals instead of 6 but who's to say he doesn't then win an extra one once he gets there because he's facing the 2014 Pacers or something?

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Of course alot of these questions are impossible to answer. My suggestion was Jordan winning 6, let alone going 6/6, had something, maybe alot, to do with the 90's NBA. I'm a downer on that era in general, many probably feel opposite.

There's an argument that the Pistons teams that kept Jordan out of the Finals initially would have had a longer run had they not lost players in the expansion drafts. Highly unlikely the Pistons lose Rick Mahorn, a key figure in their locker room and still a contributor on the court

Nah, that pistons team got old fast, lost in the first round of the playoffs in 92, and didn't qualify in 1993(had a losing record). making 3 straight finals and 5 straight conference finals is a lot of extra basketball. Rick Mahorn wasn't going to save them

 

[thecatch]

Is it really that controversial to say it's less likely Lebron walks to 5 consecutive conference titles in the West?

Depends what team he's on. What if we put him on the Spurs?

I agree he walks to the finals every year on the Spurs.On this year's Cavs team I'd say it's less likely.

What if we move the Cavs to the West but move the Spurs to the East? Someone's gotta move.

My point is that it's a more complicated question than simply asking "what if LeBron played in the West?" because even if the conferences were perfectly balanced before this hypothetical move, putting a great team from one conference in the other conference without a corresponding move is going to create an imbalance.

And it doesn't really matter that much anyway. Assuming a team with LeBron is usually going to be good enough to get a sub-50 win team that isn't really a threat in the first round regardless of opponent, we're really just talking about facing a bigger threat in the Conference semis and finals ... and then a correspondingly lesser threat in the Finals. So if we put the Cavs in the West and say the Hornets/Pelicans in the East, LeBron maybe makes it to 4 or 5 Finals instead of 6 but who's to say he doesn't then win an extra one once he gets there because he's facing the 2014 Pacers or something?

I'm not making the argument that the disparity in conferences means anything in terms of Lebron's greatness or legacy. I tend to think that you are right that maybe he makes a few less finals appearances but maybe has another ring. But I'm surprised anyone would dispute that the probability that the Cavs roll through three western conference playoff teams as opposed to what they faced in the East this year is a little lower.

 

[Anarchy99]

Is it really that controversial to say it's less likely Lebron walks to 5 consecutive conference titles in the West?

Depends what team he's on. What if we put him on the Spurs?

I agree he walks to the finals every year on the Spurs.

On this year's Cavs team I'd say it's less likely.

What if we move the Cavs to the West but move the Spurs to the East? Someone's gotta move.

My point is that it's a more complicated question than simply asking "what if LeBron played in the West?" because even if the conferences were perfectly balanced before this hypothetical move, putting a great team from one conference in the other conference without a corresponding move is going to create an imbalance.

And it doesn't really matter that much anyway. Assuming a team with LeBron is usually going to be good enough to get a sub-50 win team that isn't really a threat in the first round regardless of opponent, we're really just talking about facing a bigger threat in the Conference semis and finals ... and then a correspondingly lesser threat in the Finals. So if we put the Cavs in the West and say the Hornets/Pelicans in the East, LeBron maybe makes it to 4 or 5 Finals instead of 6 but who's to say he doesn't then win an extra one once he gets there because he's facing the 2014 Pacers or something?

There are certain things we could have an educated guess on and some that we would have no clue. If LeBron ended up on a team in the West, it is unlikely he would have been on one of the strongest teams with the rosters that were on those teams. Essentially, we have to assume James would go to a team that could have added a max contract player, and the top tier teams that we have seen for the past several years could not have kept everyone else and then added LeBron.

The other thing we know is that most years the West had teams missing the playoffs that could have been a decent playoff seed in the East. By extension, that would make the first round series opponents in the West a lot harder then the barely made the playoff teams in the East. I would also argue that the second round match ups in the West would be harder, and possibly the Western finals would be against a better opponent than in the East.

IMO, if LeBron were in the West there would still be better opponents in the West than in the East. Sure, the team we slot him on makes it more of a challenge as to how well he would have done once he got there. But if he went to a non-playoff team (say like he did this time around with CLE), he would have had a much tougher time getting to the finals going through the West than he did in the East.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Wow, those are some impressive leaps you're making

 

[GOB]

I still got Wilt as #1, but Lebron has risen to #2.

1. Wilt Chamberlain

2. Lebron James

3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar

4. Michael Jordan

5. Magic Johnson

6. Shaquille O' Neil

7. Larry Bird

8. Kobe Bryant

9. Tim Duncan

10. Bill Russell- Oscar Robertson TIE

I'm not sure what is best about this list. 1. Jordan at 4

2. Kobe over Duncan

3. On a purely opinion list you had a ####### tie.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

The Cavs are up 2-1 in the Finals against the team that destroyed the West this season, and the Cavs are doing this without three of their starters.

Who from the West beats the Cavs in a best-of-seven, especially the version of the Cavs that existed before Irving and Love got hurt?

 

[Anarchy99]

The Cavs are up 2-1 in the Finals against the team that destroyed the West this season, and the Cavs are doing this without three of their starters.

Who from the West beats the Cavs in a best-of-seven, especially the version of the Cavs that existed before Irving and Love got hurt?

Cleveland hasn't won the series yet, but as far as opponents from the West go, how about any of the teams that have some size, can rebound, and aren't soft. Jump shooting teams are always at risk of losing games when they don't shoot well, especially in the playoffs.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

The Cavs are up 2-1 in the Finals against the team that destroyed the West this season, and the Cavs are doing this without three of their starters.

Who from the West beats the Cavs in a best-of-seven, especially the version of the Cavs that existed before Irving and Love got hurt?

Cleveland hasn't won the series yet, but as far as opponents from the West go, how about any of the teams that have some size, can rebound, and aren't soft. Jump shooting teams are always at risk of losing games when they don't shoot well, especially in the playoffs.

Then how on earth did GSW manage to win 67 regular season games with historically strong differentials and get through the West playoffs? Luck?

 

[stbugs]

The Cavs are up 2-1 in the Finals against the team that destroyed the West this season, and the Cavs are doing this without three of their starters.

Who from the West beats the Cavs in a best-of-seven, especially the version of the Cavs that existed before Irving and Love got hurt?

Cleveland hasn't won the series yet, but as far as opponents from the West go, how about any of the teams that have some size, can rebound, and aren't soft. Jump shooting teams are always at risk of losing games when they don't shoot well, especially in the playoffs.

Love the argument. How about teams that aren't soft? You are calling GSW soft even though they ran through the Western Conference playoffs?

 

[TobiasFunke]

The Cavs are up 2-1 in the Finals against the team that destroyed the West this season, and the Cavs are doing this without three of their starters.

Who from the West beats the Cavs in a best-of-seven, especially the version of the Cavs that existed before Irving and Love got hurt?

Cleveland hasn't won the series yet, but as far as opponents from the West go, how about any of the teams that have some size, can rebound, and aren't soft. Jump shooting teams are always at risk of losing games when they don't shoot well, especially in the playoffs.

Yeah, this is where you're gonna lose everyone.

A team with Bogut and Green is about as far from "soft" as it gets despite appearances over the last three games. Golden State is decent at rebounding, with a rebounding rate better than each of the other three West Conference semifinalists. And everyone shoots jump shots now because they finally realized that if you get an extra point for making one you only have to make 33% to equal a 50% rate from two. That includes the Cavs, by the way, who were #2 in the league in 3PAs/game behind only the Rockets.