Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I have Satch Sanders ahead of MJ and LeBron right now.
Bill Russell has 11 rings. Or do you mean the modern GOAT, Robert Horry, who has 7 rings?
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Lebron James will never win a championship... (1 Viewer)
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Dentist
***Official FBG Dentist***
I'm not talking about me personally.. just how the media and how people perceive things.
Bill Russell has 11 rings. Or do you mean the modern GOAT, Robert Horry, who has 7 rings?
No one cares about Russell's rings because there were like 8-12 teams in the NBA then.
And no one cares about Horry's because he was always a role player.
I think there is an extremely strong possibility that LeBron is the greatest player ever, but he will really have to put up titles and numbers that are over the top to surpass Jordan in people's minds. And I think because his career arc included the decision and teaming up with DeWayne WAde.... it may never line up in people's eyes.
I can tell you that regardless of any GOAT considerations... in a draft of historical players to put together a team.. LeBron is just about the only player I"m going to consider taking over one of the ultra-dominant centers like Hakeem/Shaq/Russell/Robinson/Wilt to start my team..
matuski
Footballguy
Insein
Footballguy
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
I'd think taking two different teams to titles with different casts would be a plus.
Also, if KLove was healthy this thing wouldn't be close as it so far is.
Jayrod
Footballguy
In the GOAT discussions, who is better than LeBron?
I think he's in the top 5 now, win or lose. Likely #2 if they win this and he gets a 3rd ring.
Above him, I have:
1) MJ - LBJ still needs at least 2-3 more MVPs and Rings to get here. If he gets that, I think the conversation gets real serious as to who is truly the greatest.
2) Kareem - he still has several more MVPs and rings than LeBron, but he also needed two other all-time greats in Oscar or Magic on his team to win it all and benefited from playing alongside them for most of his career.
3) Wilt - Probably the nearest comp to LeBron and I think LBJ definitely passes him with another ring. Wilt only won 2 and his 2nd was as the #2 late in his career. But he is easily the second greatest statistical player in NBA history. #2 in PPG, #1 in RPG, and even led the league in assists one year for the hell of it. His career advanced stats are basically all in the top 5 all time.
I think LBJ is already beyond the likes of Bird and Magic. Bird's peak career was too short and Magic was too poor of a defender to be in LBJ's tier. I always knock Russell down for being more of a role player on a great team than a true dominant force and Shaq was never able to control the game and always needed that great 2nd player to carry the team at the end of the game. Guys like Hakeem, Oscar, Duncan and Kobe are already well below LeBron's level.
I think he's in the top 5 now, win or lose. Likely #2 if they win this and he gets a 3rd ring.
Above him, I have:
1) MJ - LBJ still needs at least 2-3 more MVPs and Rings to get here. If he gets that, I think the conversation gets real serious as to who is truly the greatest.
2) Kareem - he still has several more MVPs and rings than LeBron, but he also needed two other all-time greats in Oscar or Magic on his team to win it all and benefited from playing alongside them for most of his career.
3) Wilt - Probably the nearest comp to LeBron and I think LBJ definitely passes him with another ring. Wilt only won 2 and his 2nd was as the #2 late in his career. But he is easily the second greatest statistical player in NBA history. #2 in PPG, #1 in RPG, and even led the league in assists one year for the hell of it. His career advanced stats are basically all in the top 5 all time.
I think LBJ is already beyond the likes of Bird and Magic. Bird's peak career was too short and Magic was too poor of a defender to be in LBJ's tier. I always knock Russell down for being more of a role player on a great team than a true dominant force and Shaq was never able to control the game and always needed that great 2nd player to carry the team at the end of the game. Guys like Hakeem, Oscar, Duncan and Kobe are already well below LeBron's level.
Rick James
Footballguy
bshell27
Footballguy
Stats are stats, but LBJ does not do himself any favors with his on-court antics. Too much flopping/crying/whining when a call doesn't go his way. He's 230? 240? and does crap like this... (4:30 is perfect in the video, little DJ knocks down LBJ)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fSlLdXNzPw
A lot of that is unnecessary and gives his detractors something to use against him. No way he should go down on a lot of those plays. I'm sure there is some footage of MJ, but nothing that amounts to LBJ style flopping. Taking a charge is one thing, flopping on incidental contact away from the basket is another.
He is a great player, but will never be considered the best due to this stuff and "The Decision".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fSlLdXNzPw
A lot of that is unnecessary and gives his detractors something to use against him. No way he should go down on a lot of those plays. I'm sure there is some footage of MJ, but nothing that amounts to LBJ style flopping. Taking a charge is one thing, flopping on incidental contact away from the basket is another.
He is a great player, but will never be considered the best due to this stuff and "The Decision".
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TenTimes
Backhoe Operator
igbomb
Footballguy
bshell27
Footballguy
Exactly. I'm sorry, this is a conversation about the GOAT, right? You think only basketball stats are a part of that? LBJ is a great player and will go down as one of the greatest, but not THE GOAT.
saintfool
Dead sexy
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Seriously, you guys. LeBron has a terrible singing voice and can't grill a good steak to save his life, and you jokers are ready to call him the GOAT? Please.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
metoo
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I think part of the reason LeBron has gotten to the finals as often as he has stems from him playing in the East. The West has been clearly the better conference for quite a while. In LeBron's 6 seasons where his team advanced to the finals, three times there was only one other team in the East with 50 wins with a max of 4 teams with 50 wins. By comparison, in the West, there have always been at least 5 teams with 50 wins and the past two years there were 7 teams with at least 50 wins.
Since we can't rewrite history, we will never know what would have happened if LeBron played in the West, but it would likely have been a tougher road to the finals than it has been playing in the East. Maybe he still would have had just as many finals appearances, but at first blush I would be inclined to think he wouldn't.
Since we can't rewrite history, we will never know what would have happened if LeBron played in the West, but it would likely have been a tougher road to the finals than it has been playing in the East. Maybe he still would have had just as many finals appearances, but at first blush I would be inclined to think he wouldn't.
Dentist
***Official FBG Dentist***
While I can agree with that, why aren't more teams flocking to the East then for the better shot at a ring? Seems like if I actually cared about championships even just a little more than money that the East would've attracted several free agents to budding teams for that very reason.
You're definitely more likely to get to the playoffs over in the east. So why wouldn't a James Harden type of free agent target an eastern team to lead?
The west has been over-packed with Durant and Kobe and Duncan/Parker/Ginobili and Nowitski for years now.. literally over a decade.
matuski
Footballguy
Not even close what.
He isn't beating people with an amazing jump shot or post up or great moves.. he is straight up out powering them on both sides. Shaq left the same impression on me. No less impressive than Jordan or any other great.. just different.
A different trait facilitates the greatness.
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Insein
Footballguy
Shaq did one thing. He went back to the basket and backed people down. He had no mid range game. No ball control. No fast break presence. He got boards and made dunks. Shaq is a dominant big man.
Lebron can play any position on the floor and play it well. He can run point, shoot threes, mid range, drive, dish, back to the basket, fade away, board. He's a better all around athlete than Jordan or Kobe. Jordan and Kobe were better scorers and pure shooters but they can't do a lot of the things Lebron can.
To say Lebron is like Shaq is to say Mike Trout is like Mark Maguire.
matuski
Footballguy
All the the things I see in Lebron.. no jump shot, nothing pretty about him, no post up fade away... raw power. When did he learn to shoot (3's or mid range?) - news to me. I see what you describe in Shaq.. only in a different position on the floor.
It is the trait I see in both... superior strength and athleticism in a body we haven't seen that trumps their skills and stands out when you watch.
For this same reason, much like SHaq.. I see Lebrons sunset being a short one once time or injury takes away the athletic dominance. Unless he finds a fade away or learns to shoot reliably...
commoncents
Footballguy
https://twitter.com/SedanoESPN/status/607941038624391168
According to this tweet, James/Love/Irving combo was obviously optimal, however, if all three of them are not on the floor together, the Cavs are much better off playing with only James (sample size is small but not insignificant).
This is likely due to the fact that when Love/Irving are not on the floor, the Cavs are a significantly better defensive team. However, the defensive integrity of the team is compromised when one of Irving/Love are on the floor with Lebron. It stands to reason that when James/Love/Irving are on the floor together, the defensive deficiencies this unit are mitigated by its increased offensive efficiency. However, when only one of Love/Irving are playing alongside Lebron, the additional benefits gained on offense, barely cover for their defensive deficiencies.
Given the way the series has played out, the Cavs have been successful playing gorilla ball and the story of the series is how the Cavaliers' defense has been able to lock down the GSW offense. Inserting Love into the games would improve offensive spacing, however, it would negate the advantage the Cavs have enjoyed through the first 3 games.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
Next time DrJ offers you the baton, just leave it on the ground.
sho nuff
Footballguy
I think he is a mix of some bigger guys and a bit Magic with his ability to pass at times.
He isn't that "assassin" type like MJ or Kobe.
But just a physical freak.
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
Oof. OP wrong on both accounts of Bron & Peyton...
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
He's one of the best shooters in the league from the elbows, too. He's played 45 fewer career playoff minutes than Jordan. In the postseason, MJ and LBJ's eFG% and TS% are pretty much equal. LeBron has slight edge on eFG% because he shoots twos so well, TS% is pretty much a dead heat with Jordan's edge shooting ones. Keep in mind that a lot of Jordan's 3PTA volume was when the league moved the three-point line in over a foot for a couple years.
matuski
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
People take these things so personally. I am not hating on Lebron in the least.
The reason I saw the Cavs get in trouble game 1 was Lebron settling for shots. Worst thing that could have happened to them was when he made a few early and was satisfied to continue the jumpers.
matuski
Footballguy
There is no way in hell anyone here is going to take Lebron over MJ or Kobe from midrange to 3's and post it with a straight face.
SWC
Bromigo
i agree brohan matusky you are pretty much embarsing yourself bromigo take that to the bank
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
Find someone making that argument and take it up with them. No need to take it so personally.There is no way in hell anyone could say what you've said about LeBron's skill set now and how it will age and post it with a straight face.matuski said:
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Tau837
Footballguy
1. Jordan played in the stronger conference, unlike Lebron. His teams always had to play at least two tough playoff series just to make the Finals in all of his championship seasons.
2. Disagree that the West teams Jordan's teams faced were weak. The 1991 Lakers were weak, especially due to injuries in the Finals. But the Trailblazers, Suns, Sonics, and Jazz teams they defeated were great teams. There were a lot of HOF players on those teams.
Insein
Footballguy
Stronger but not by much. You had the Knicks and Pacers both with 1 great player. Pistons run was done. Hornets never did much. Who else?
Still awesome thoughwdcrob said:
Bobcat10
Footballguy
I'm thinking that as well about the East.
Maybe I'm missing some HOF's from those West teams (Clyde and nothing special, Payton and I guess Kemp was in his prime, Barkley teams were OK I guess)....the Jazz were probably the most formidable opponent of the group with obviously 2 HOFs. Not seeing it...some OK teams with nothing inside for the most part...Finals teams from the 80s and Naughts destroy these teams.
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Barkley teams were OK? Thought those teams were stacked.
timschochet
Footballguy
I still got Wilt as #1, but Lebron has risen to #2.
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Lebron James
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Michael Jordan
5. Magic Johnson
6. Shaquille O' Neil
7. Larry Bird
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Bill Russell- Oscar Robertson TIE
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Lebron James
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Michael Jordan
5. Magic Johnson
6. Shaquille O' Neil
7. Larry Bird
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Bill Russell- Oscar Robertson TIE
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Guess it depends what you think of Thunder Dan, Johnson, etc. Did Chambers even start? They were certainly a good team...but how do you stack them up against the 80s and 00s finals teams? You think they were better than the Jazz?
Insein
Footballguy
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
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