Let's really break down the QB. Not as many (1 Viewer)

[stbugs]

9. Aaron Brooks: Has been an awful QB really. Maybe a FF decent QB but an awful NFL QB the past 2+ years. Ever since ge moaned about not making enough money, than got the money, than has not produced wins. The Saints are going to be more of a power running team. Everyone banks that they can grab Brooks in the 9th round…gonna be disappointed if this is the best you have every Sunday.

Thoughts and criticisms, fire away.

I've never owned Brooks, and may never, but he's finished in the top 8 QB's for the past 4 seasons. Not sure what you mean about being disappointed, I'll take that if I can get it late.

You're right, from A FF expectation level he has been a top10 guy although never a top5. But the disappoinment is with his coaches/front office. They want to pound the football this year with what they think is the strength of their backfield. I am saying that Brooks will be a major disappointment this season. Even in the preseason games I watch he still misses the broadside of the barns.

always has. he'll still finish 6th-9th. The Saints saying they want to re-commit to the running game is not sufficient enough reason to drop Brooks any further than he's finished the last 4 years. We hear that every pre-season. When they fall behind 14-0 in the first quarter, it always changes in a hurry.

I agree, I don't know why the disdain for Brooks. I took a look at Brooks' last four years as the starter and behind Culpepper and Manning, he has the best average final FF ranking. Knock on wood, but he has been very healthy and puts up the points.He has been better on average than McNabb, Vick, Favre, Green, Plummer, Brady, Bulger, Hasselbeck and anyone else aside from Peyton and Pepp. I was amazed when I looked it up, but check the FBG final year rankings and you will see. There are only three QBs that have finished in the top 10 rankings in every year they have started in the past four years. Bulger (2 years), Manning and Brooks. Culpepper should have except he finished 15th the year he got hurt. That is consistent fantasy production for a guy you can pick up late every year.

Also, MOP, I did win my fantasy league last year with Brooks as my QB. I had a solid surrounding cast, but he put up good numbers every week, not Manning great, but never Vick bad.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

The one thing that may have been overlooked is that you can pair up some of these guys and still do ok without breaking the bank.

IMO, QB in particular is a position where you either take someone very early or you should wait.  There's the top tier that's leaps and bounds better than the rest, a very small second tier that is not dramatically better than the third tier, and that third tier where many players are similar in their projections.

So I normally pass on many QB and then normally take 3 guys that are: 1) botton of the Top 12, 2) around Top 15, 3) somewhere around Top 20 or so with upside.  I could get Palmer, Delhomme, and McNair and not bat an eyelash.  The options then become QBBC or hope someone emerges into an every week starter.  At that point in the draft, people are drafting backup RB that need an injury to someone to get a chance, WR that are a dime a dozen, middle of the road TE, or top of the food chain DEF or PK.

In recent memory, I have done this many times and at least one guy turns into a decent option.  Last year I ended up with Delhomme, Brees, and Collins and did fine.  Sometimes they don't look great, but they get the job done.

You bring up some good points Yudkin but not all top20 QB according to "Projections" will finish in the top10...it's a dilema you run into.

Of the guys you had listed, some combination of McNair, Delhomme, Harrington, and as late picks like Warner or Frerotte will get you where you need to go. You obviously can't draft that many QB, but these guys will all do well enough to make waiting on them a decent strategy.

OK, let's flash back to MOP 3 seasons ago. I had Vick and Grbac? I think I had him the year he went to Baltimore...people were sure he would do fine. A Delhomme type QB/season.I could never get the right combo to work all season, I suffered at QB, had great RB/WR though and I suffered come playoff time.

You can take QB late, you're right, but you gotta pick the right ones...you can't just have the guy that finishes #15 or #19 for the season and call it a day...you will lose a lot in the way of point on Sundays when you square off and guys go off at QB for other teams.

It's not like you're guy scores 15 every week. He might score 20 than go 10,10,15...not good.

Meanwhile the QB at #5 in points has 20 on a bad week

Joe pays me big money to not take the dregs and come up with the gems. In reality, I have fared pretty well identifying who the undervalued QB will be. Three or so years ago I grabbed Vick and Green when they were not yet established and rode them all year (both Top 6 IIRC). While it technically gets labelled as a QBBC, my hope is to get someone that does well all the time and as a last resort start playing matchups.

The object is to comple the best team that scores the most points.

In a thread last night on Manning, I think we concluded that even with a huge advantage in scoring from Manning it might not be be the best thing for your team to take him early in the first even at 6 pts/TD. The example I used was a 1st round pick on Alexander and a 6th round pick on Favre pretty much equaled the total of a first round pick on Manning and a 2nd round pick on Jordan.

The secret to winning at this game is figuring out how to align your puzzle pieces to max out scoring and value. If you do a good enough job stockpiling talent, you may not need Superman at QB to win. And you can still hit on QB later on that are productive, and that's just a bonus.

I would not be adverse to going RB-RB-RB-WR-WR-WR-TE-QB-QB-QB and walking away thinking I had a great team. I doubt I would draft in quite that pattern, but it cetainly has merit even in that order. (Almost all my leagues have a PPR scoring system, so I have not really loaded up early on RB this year as the vlaue is better at WR.)

Fair points.'99 Kurt Warner

'00 Jeff Garcia

'01 Favre

'02 Gannon

'03 Hasselbeck

'04 Green/Plummer

You're right you don't need Superman but it sure helps to get a QB in the 6th round or later that stays in a Holiday Inn Express on Saturday Nights

 

[Angry Beavers]

i am in a new league this year where the drafting requirements include 3 qb's (I have to draft 3 qb's and carry 3 qb's,no excuses) - i'll be looking to get harrington and garcia

 

[Mystery Achiever]

[i agree with your Favre, Brady, Delhomme and Griese picks ministry of pain. Which just leads me to think there are even more quality qb's than most people think.

Those are the ones I've been looking at, too. Ended up with Green and Griese in my Omega draft since Favre went early, as did Jake (rd 7). For others looking at this group, note that Delhomme, Brady and Griese all have week 7 byes.

 

[packersfan]

I agree, I don't know why the disdain for Brooks. I took a look at Brooks' last four years as the starter and behind Culpepper and Manning, he has the best average final FF ranking. Knock on wood, but he has been very healthy and puts up the points.

Three seasons ago I had Brooks and Brady. I was flying high when both of them shot out of the gates in the first half of the season. Then both of them went into the tank down the stretch and cost me the title. It wouldn't have been so bad if one of them was merely stinking up the joint but both of them went belly-up -- and against some prime matchups at the time. I haven't had Brooks since but that's because he's gone before I would take him. But I would never trust him as my QB1 again. If I could get him for a good value as a QB2 I'll take him again. But I just wouldn't be comfortable with him as my QB1 and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I agree, I don't know why the disdain for Brooks. I took a look at Brooks' last four years as the starter and behind Culpepper and Manning, he has the best average final FF ranking. Knock on wood, but he has been very healthy and puts up the points.

Three seasons ago I had Brooks and Brady. I was flying high when both of them shot out of the gates in the first half of the season. Then both of them went into the tank down the stretch and cost me the title. It wouldn't have been so bad if one of them was merely stinking up the joint but both of them went belly-up -- and against some prime matchups at the time. I haven't had Brooks since but that's because he's gone before I would take him. But I would never trust him as my QB1 again. If I could get him for a good value as a QB2 I'll take him again. But I just wouldn't be comfortable with him as my QB1 and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Excellent Point! There may only be 6 Qb that should be QB1..or maybe the number is 8 or even 10....but their won't be 12 QB1 that will yield you 20-25 points per week in a 4 pt per pass TD format...I assure you. If you play 6 points per pass TD than you need a QB that can avg 25 a week to keep up with the top QBs.For example ar RB there might be 8 RB that are RB1 by the midpoint of the season, the rest would be better served as RB2...or maybe their are 8 RB2 and the rest behind them are really RB3...you get the idea.

Another example is C.Chamber at WR. He is about #20 in most mags, websites. While he could be considered a WR2 in 12 team leagues, he is better suited as WR3 in start3 leagues. Just because a guy ranks at a certain point doesn't make him a great starter.

 

[Urinal Mint]

Brady is not "FAR BETTER" than Troy Aikman.

Thanks.I disagree wholeheartedly. The Brady to Branch bombs are a thing of beauty. I think if they ever take the reigns off Brady and ask him to shoulder the load he can do it. Aikman could not...that's the difference and Brady doesn't have a Michael Irvin or Jay Novacek to throw to either.

Aikman never had to shoulder the load. When required, he could light up a defense through the air. Aikman had the running game that Brady did not during the first 2 Super Bowl campaigns.

 

[packersfan]

I agree, I don't know why the disdain for Brooks. I took a look at Brooks' last four years as the starter and behind Culpepper and Manning, he has the best average final FF ranking. Knock on wood, but he has been very healthy and puts up the points.

Three seasons ago I had Brooks and Brady. I was flying high when both of them shot out of the gates in the first half of the season. Then both of them went into the tank down the stretch and cost me the title. It wouldn't have been so bad if one of them was merely stinking up the joint but both of them went belly-up -- and against some prime matchups at the time. I haven't had Brooks since but that's because he's gone before I would take him. But I would never trust him as my QB1 again. If I could get him for a good value as a QB2 I'll take him again. But I just wouldn't be comfortable with him as my QB1 and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Excellent Point! There may only be 6 Qb that should be QB1..or maybe the number is 8 or even 10....but their won't be 12 QB1 that will yield you 20-25 points per week in a 4 pt per pass TD format...I assure you. If you play 6 points per pass TD than you need a QB that can avg 25 a week to keep up with the top QBs.For example ar RB there might be 8 RB that are RB1 by the midpoint of the season, the rest would be better served as RB2...or maybe their are 8 RB2 and the rest behind them are really RB3...you get the idea.

Another example is C.Chamber at WR. He is about #20 in most mags, websites. While he could be considered a WR2 in 12 team leagues, he is better suited as WR3 in start3 leagues. Just because a guy ranks at a certain point doesn't make him a great starter.

Due in large part to that lesson with Brooks and Brady and placing too much faith in Kerry Collins the following season I've revised my thinking when it comes to QBs. I want one of the few guys I feel comfortable with as a QB1. If I have to grab him a round earlier than he would normally go I don't care. I want the security of knowing my QB1 is rock solid and will be there for me to provide solid (or better) production. Last season, I drafted Favre for the first time and backed him up with Delhomme and my QB production was terrific. This season I view the following QBs as being the only ones I'd feel comfortable with as my QB1 week-in and week-out:

Manning

Culpepper

McNabb

Green

Favre

Bulger

That's it. Now there are a few more I'd be OK with as my QB1 but I'd want to make sure I had a strong backup.

Brady

Collins

Delhomme

Palmer

The plan in my draft is to ensure I get one of the guys from the first list (McNabb will be kept so he's out). If I can't, I'll hold off for a round or two and make sure I get someone from the second list. In a perfect world, I'm able to leave the draft with my QB1 coming from the first list and my QB2 coming from the second. That's what I did last season with Favre and Delhomme.

 

[ookook]

4. Bulger: Has all the weapons. Will need to toss 30 TD to justify this pick/rank.

Not sure I follow your logic here, or at least not your math.Bulger threw 21 TDs in 14 games. If he had played 16, he would have finished as the 4th QB with 24 TDs.

He is ranked 4th by FBG projections. So to stay the same he would need to do about the same me thinks.

Now, I predict he will improve and Culp and McNibb will both get worse (the former by more than the latter).

I say if Bulger is there in the 4th round it is hard to pass him up for Michael Bennett, Darrel Jackson, or DeShaun Foster.

And I am normally Mr. QBBC. I just have Bulger at QB2 in my projections and they usually go 2 rounds before when I would ever take one.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

4. Bulger: Has all the weapons. Will need to toss 30 TD to justify this pick/rank.

Not sure I follow your logic here, or at least not your math.Bulger threw 21 TDs in 14 games. If he had played 16, he would have finished as the 4th QB with 24 TDs.

He is ranked 4th by FBG projections. So to stay the same he would need to do about the same me thinks.

Now, I predict he will improve and Culp and McNibb will both get worse (the former by more than the latter).

I say if Bulger is there in the 4th round it is hard to pass him up for Machael Bennett, Darrel Jackson, or DeShaun Foster.

And I am normally Mr. QBBC. I just have Bulger at QB2 in my projections and they usually go 2 rounds before when I would ever take one.

1. Manning 40 TD2. Culpepper 30 TD

3. McNabb 30 TD

4. Bulger 30 TD

Just saying would like to see 30 TD out of the guy in order to justify a 4th round burn...I can get Favre 2 rounds later and he almost always throws 28+.

 

[David Yudkin]

Excellent Point! There may only be 6 Qb that should be QB1..or maybe the number is 8 or even 10....but their won't be 12 QB1 that will yield you 20-25 points per week in a 4 pt per pass TD format...I assure you. If you play 6 points per pass TD than you need a QB that can avg 25 a week to keep up with the top QBs.

For example ar RB there might be 8 RB that are RB1 by the midpoint of the season, the rest would be better served as RB2...or maybe their are 8 RB2 and the rest behind them are really RB3...you get the idea.

Another example is C.Chamber at WR. He is about #20 in most mags, websites. While he could be considered a WR2 in 12 team leagues, he is better suited as WR3 in start3 leagues. Just because a guy ranks at a certain point doesn't make him a great starter.

MOP -You are a smart guy, and you should be aware that what you give away at one position you make up at another. Teams that invest early in QB will miss out at another position.

As you already posted, there were 6 guys that average 20 ppg. That in iteself was very high and I doubt that that will happen again (history tells us to expect a drop off from last year). If you look at the guys from QB 5 to QB 12, there was a scoring differential of less than 2 ppg. I cannot prove that the player an owner ignored to take those top QB would result in a difference of 2 ppg, but I would say that there is a decent chance that there is a high probability that that would be the case.

IMO, if you can get guys many rounds later that clock in within a couple points, you are doing great. Remember, Manning, Culpepper, and McNabb come at a premium--the owners that take them will have either:

- a poor man's RB1 (if you take Manning)

- a very risky RB2 (if you take Culpepper)

- a so-so WR1 (if you take McNabb)

That's what I was alluding to earlier about the puzzle pieces. You have to try to figure out how to get the greatest number of points scored on your roster, and if you can get gift points late, you are a fool not to take them. With most leagues only starting 1 QB, the bandwidth between QB1 and QB12 is not that great compared to RB and WR.

People like to compare PLAYER X and PLAYER Y, but many times they forget to mention that the first guy was a 2nd round pick and the second guy was an 8th round pick. If Y is only slightly worse than X, Y is a much better option.

 

[packersfan]

For what it's worth David, in relating my thoughts here I would quite likely never end up with Manning, Culpepper or McNabb because I can't envision a scenario where I would take a QB in the first three rounds. But from Round 4 on is when I'm going to start to target my QB1. The flow of the draft will determine when I feel I need to go and get him.

 

[stbugs]

I agree, I don't know why the disdain for Brooks. I took a look at Brooks' last four years as the starter and behind Culpepper and Manning, he has the best average final FF ranking. Knock on wood, but he has been very healthy and puts up the points.

Three seasons ago I had Brooks and Brady. I was flying high when both of them shot out of the gates in the first half of the season. Then both of them went into the tank down the stretch and cost me the title. It wouldn't have been so bad if one of them was merely stinking up the joint but both of them went belly-up -- and against some prime matchups at the time. I haven't had Brooks since but that's because he's gone before I would take him. But I would never trust him as my QB1 again. If I could get him for a good value as a QB2 I'll take him again. But I just wouldn't be comfortable with him as my QB1 and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Excellent Point! There may only be 6 Qb that should be QB1..or maybe the number is 8 or even 10....but their won't be 12 QB1 that will yield you 20-25 points per week in a 4 pt per pass TD format...I assure you. If you play 6 points per pass TD than you need a QB that can avg 25 a week to keep up with the top QBs.For example ar RB there might be 8 RB that are RB1 by the midpoint of the season, the rest would be better served as RB2...or maybe their are 8 RB2 and the rest behind them are really RB3...you get the idea.

Another example is C.Chamber at WR. He is about #20 in most mags, websites. While he could be considered a WR2 in 12 team leagues, he is better suited as WR3 in start3 leagues. Just because a guy ranks at a certain point doesn't make him a great starter.

Due in large part to that lesson with Brooks and Brady and placing too much faith in Kerry Collins the following season I've revised my thinking when it comes to QBs. I want one of the few guys I feel comfortable with as a QB1. If I have to grab him a round earlier than he would normally go I don't care. I want the security of knowing my QB1 is rock solid and will be there for me to provide solid (or better) production. Last season, I drafted Favre for the first time and backed him up with Delhomme and my QB production was terrific. This season I view the following QBs as being the only ones I'd feel comfortable with as my QB1 week-in and week-out:

Manning

Culpepper

McNabb

Green

Favre

Bulger

That's it. Now there are a few more I'd be OK with as my QB1 but I'd want to make sure I had a strong backup.

Brady

Collins

Delhomme

Palmer

The plan in my draft is to ensure I get one of the guys from the first list (McNabb will be kept so he's out). If I can't, I'll hold off for a round or two and make sure I get someone from the second list. In a perfect world, I'm able to leave the draft with my QB1 coming from the first list and my QB2 coming from the second. That's what I did last season with Favre and Delhomme.

That is funny that you felt comfortable with Favre last season and are OK with Favre, Green and Bulger, all of whom Brooks has done better than over the last 4 years. I know in my league Favre got drafted before Brooks, but he only had 6 more points than Brooks did all season.I was going to reply to your earlier post, but I have gotten tired of trying to defend Brooks. I took him about 2 rounds after Green (only 13 more points all season) and about 3 rounds after Favre and last year he was Mr. Consistent. He averaged 15.75 ppg as my QB with a high of 21 and low of 11. He never had a Manning or Pepp game, but he also had no Vick games. He was always putting points on the board. That also meant I got Tony Gonzalez on my team and he was quite good. I guess I would rather have TG and Brooks than Heap/Shockey (Start 1 TE) and Favre/Green.

Edit to add: I also didn't get Gates late because I picked up TG, but I guess I will take my Championship last year and hope I do well this year without having Gates as a middle round keeper.

 

[HULLOBUDMAN]

The one thing that may have been overlooked is that you can pair up some of these guys and still do ok without breaking the bank.

IMO, QB in particular is a position where you either take someone very early or you should wait. There's the top tier that's leaps and bounds better than the rest, a very small second tier that is not dramatically better than the third tier, and that third tier where many players are similar in their projections.

So I normally pass on many QB and then normally take 3 guys that are: 1) botton of the Top 12, 2) around Top 15, 3) somewhere around Top 20 or so with upside. I could get Palmer, Delhomme, and McNair and not bat an eyelash. The options then become QBBC or hope someone emerges into an every week starter. At that point in the draft, people are drafting backup RB that need an injury to someone to get a chance, WR that are a dime a dozen, middle of the road TE, or top of the food chain DEF or PK.

In recent memory, I have done this many times and at least one guy turns into a decent option. Last year I ended up with Delhomme, Brees, and Collins and did fine. Sometimes they don't look great, but they get the job done.

All of my leagues except one only have 14 roster spots. Trying to carry 3 QBs on a league like that is suicide. As always, there is no clear answer to this type of topic, it all depends on the way the league is structured. Last year I drafted QB late and ended up struggling all year as every other team had 2 QBs on the roster. For my purposes, you need to have a top 8 or 9 QB to be competitive.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Excellent Point!  There may only be 6 Qb that should be QB1..or maybe the number is 8 or even 10....but their won't be 12 QB1 that will yield you 20-25 points per week in a 4 pt per pass TD format...I assure you. If you play 6 points per pass TD than you need a QB that can avg 25 a week to keep up with the top QBs.

For example ar RB there might be 8 RB that are RB1 by the midpoint of the season, the rest would be better served as RB2...or maybe their are 8 RB2 and the rest behind them are really RB3...you get the idea.

Another example is C.Chamber at WR. He is about #20 in most mags, websites. While he could be considered a WR2 in 12 team leagues, he is better suited as  WR3 in start3 leagues. Just because a guy ranks at a certain point doesn't make him a great starter.

MOP -You are a smart guy, and you should be aware that what you give away at one position you make up at another. Teams that invest early in QB will miss out at another position.

As you already posted, there were 6 guys that average 20 ppg. That in iteself was very high and I doubt that that will happen again (history tells us to expect a drop off from last year). If you look at the guys from QB 5 to QB 12, there was a scoring differential of less than 2 ppg. I cannot prove that the player an owner ignored to take those top QB would result in a difference of 2 ppg, but I would say that there is a decent chance that there is a high probability that that would be the case.

IMO, if you can get guys many rounds later that clock in within a couple points, you are doing great. Remember, Manning, Culpepper, and McNabb come at a premium--the owners that take them will have either:

- a poor man's RB1 (if you take Manning)

- a very risky RB2 (if you take Culpepper)

- a so-so WR1 (if you take McNabb)

That's what I was alluding to earlier about the puzzle pieces. You have to try to figure out how to get the greatest number of points scored on your roster, and if you can get gift points late, you are a fool not to take them. With most leagues only starting 1 QB, the bandwidth between QB1 and QB12 is not that great compared to RB and WR.

People like to compare PLAYER X and PLAYER Y, but many times they forget to mention that the first guy was a 2nd round pick and the second guy was an 8th round pick. If Y is only slightly worse than X, Y is a much better option.

This is good David. Let's take this out a little further. Let's pick Plummer who exceeded all expectations last seasonEven as well as he did, he only threw 6 TD over his last 6 games...with 4 of them coming in weeks 16 and 17. So 2 TD in the last 4 games prior. You really have to get lucky with who you take late. Sure you can find a guy that throws for 200 yds and 1 TD...there's a whole heap of 'em, but what you want are guys that far exceed their draft slots. And I am telling you that if you think you'll just grab any 2 guys from about 12-24 in projections adn be fine, that you're fooling yourself.

The guys that have the top5 or top10 QB usually have a decent stable of RB too. You don't have to get a top5 or top10 QB in the 1st round. You can grab Tomlinson, Jordan, Chad Johnson, Jason Witten, Steve Smith, Brett Favre, so on and so forth. You have a great starting tandem at RB, Good WR, TE, and you are not left wanting anything at QB assuming you get one of the better QB that will rise out of that 12-24 spot.

I am not saying sacrifice anything at RB/WR. It stinks to have to trade for an upgrade at QB and lose a decent WR/RB in order to do it mid season. Better to do your homework and not have to be in that predictament...maybe even have the luxury of trading away one of your 2-3 QB who is doing well.

 

[Judge Smails]

Leagues with negative points for INT's made guys like Manning, McNabb and Brees that much more valuable, with slingers like Favre and Collins not so enticing. Must be taken into account.

 

[packersfan]

I agree, I don't know why the disdain for Brooks. I took a look at Brooks' last four years as the starter and behind Culpepper and Manning, he has the best average final FF ranking. Knock on wood, but he has been very healthy and puts up the points.

Three seasons ago I had Brooks and Brady. I was flying high when both of them shot out of the gates in the first half of the season. Then both of them went into the tank down the stretch and cost me the title. It wouldn't have been so bad if one of them was merely stinking up the joint but both of them went belly-up -- and against some prime matchups at the time. I haven't had Brooks since but that's because he's gone before I would take him. But I would never trust him as my QB1 again. If I could get him for a good value as a QB2 I'll take him again. But I just wouldn't be comfortable with him as my QB1 and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Excellent Point! There may only be 6 Qb that should be QB1..or maybe the number is 8 or even 10....but their won't be 12 QB1 that will yield you 20-25 points per week in a 4 pt per pass TD format...I assure you. If you play 6 points per pass TD than you need a QB that can avg 25 a week to keep up with the top QBs.For example ar RB there might be 8 RB that are RB1 by the midpoint of the season, the rest would be better served as RB2...or maybe their are 8 RB2 and the rest behind them are really RB3...you get the idea.

Another example is C.Chamber at WR. He is about #20 in most mags, websites. While he could be considered a WR2 in 12 team leagues, he is better suited as WR3 in start3 leagues. Just because a guy ranks at a certain point doesn't make him a great starter.

Due in large part to that lesson with Brooks and Brady and placing too much faith in Kerry Collins the following season I've revised my thinking when it comes to QBs. I want one of the few guys I feel comfortable with as a QB1. If I have to grab him a round earlier than he would normally go I don't care. I want the security of knowing my QB1 is rock solid and will be there for me to provide solid (or better) production. Last season, I drafted Favre for the first time and backed him up with Delhomme and my QB production was terrific. This season I view the following QBs as being the only ones I'd feel comfortable with as my QB1 week-in and week-out:

Manning

Culpepper

McNabb

Green

Favre

Bulger

That's it. Now there are a few more I'd be OK with as my QB1 but I'd want to make sure I had a strong backup.

Brady

Collins

Delhomme

Palmer

The plan in my draft is to ensure I get one of the guys from the first list (McNabb will be kept so he's out). If I can't, I'll hold off for a round or two and make sure I get someone from the second list. In a perfect world, I'm able to leave the draft with my QB1 coming from the first list and my QB2 coming from the second. That's what I did last season with Favre and Delhomme.

That is funny that you felt comfortable with Favre last season and are OK with Favre, Green and Bulger, all of whom Brooks has done better than over the last 4 years. I know in my league Favre got drafted before Brooks, but he only had 6 more points than Brooks did all season.I was going to reply to your earlier post, but I have gotten tired of trying to defend Brooks. I took him about 2 rounds after Green (only 13 more points all season) and about 3 rounds after Favre and last year he was Mr. Consistent. He averaged 15.75 ppg as my QB with a high of 21 and low of 11. He never had a Manning or Pepp game, but he also had no Vick games. He was always putting points on the board. That also meant I got Tony Gonzalez on my team and he was quite good. I guess I would rather have TG and Brooks than Heap/Shockey (Start 1 TE) and Favre/Green.

Edit to add: I also didn't get Gates late because I picked up TG, but I guess I will take my Championship last year and hope I do well this year without having Gates as a middle round keeper.

Brooks only had four games last season where he threw more than 1 TD in a game. Favre did that nine times. Favre had nine game with 250+ yards, including five games over 300. Brooks topped 250 yards seven times but had only two 300-yard games.I'll take Favre.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

That is funny that you felt comfortable with Favre last season and are OK with Favre, Green and Bulger, all of whom Brooks has done better than over the last 4 years. I know in my league Favre got drafted before Brooks, but he only had 6 more points than Brooks did all season.

I was going to reply to your earlier post, but I have gotten tired of trying to defend Brooks. I took him about 2 rounds after Green (only 13 more points all season) and about 3 rounds after Favre and last year he was Mr. Consistent. He averaged 15.75 ppg as my QB with a high of 21 and low of 11. He never had a Manning or Pepp game, but he also had no Vick games. He was always putting points on the board. That also meant I got Tony Gonzalez on my team and he was quite good. I guess I would rather have TG and Brooks than Heap/Shockey (Start 1 TE) and Favre/Green.

Edit to add: I also didn't get Gates late because I picked up TG, but I guess I will take my Championship last year and hope I do well this year without having Gates as a middle round keeper.

In '02 He had 10 games of 2+ TDIn '03 He had 6 games with 2+ TD

in '04 He had 3 games with 2+TD...13 weeks he threw 1 TD or less...

Brooks is on the decline. Those are the facts Jack! I think in '03 not 1 QB threw for 30 TD so it kind of throws the numbers off a bit when you compare over the past 3 years.

 

[David Yudkin]

All of my leagues except one only have 14 roster spots. Trying to carry 3 QBs on a league like that is suicide. As always, there is no clear answer to this type of topic, it all depends on the way the league is structured. Last year I drafted QB late and ended up struggling all year as every other team had 2 QBs on the roster. For my purposes, you need to have a top 8 or 9 QB to be competitive.

Obviously not all leagues are the same and not all strategies can apply to each of them. I am generally in leagues with 18-22 roster spots, so having extra guys around is a luxury.In your situation, I would be inclined to take someone like a Favre that is reliable and plays a lot and someone that I had conviction would do better than expected that is under the radar and leave the third guy alone.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Brooks only had four games last season where he threw more than 1 TD in a game. Favre did that nine times. Favre had nine game with 250+ yards, including five games over 300. Brooks topped 250 yards seven times but had only two 300-yard games.

I'll take Favre.

Uh oh, it looks like we are picking on him. StBugs, it's cool if you want to take Brooks again this year and he is built into your plan or maybe you had your draft already, it's cool. I'm just trying to present the info the way I see it, and I could be dead wrong on what I think and Brooks might have a super year. I don't want you to think I am picking on Brooks.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

All of my leagues except one only have 14 roster spots. Trying to carry 3 QBs on a league like that is suicide. As always, there is no clear answer to this type of topic, it all depends on the way the league is structured. Last year I drafted QB late and ended up struggling all year as every other team had 2 QBs on the roster. For my purposes, you need to have a top 8 or 9 QB to be competitive.

Obviously not all leagues are the same and not all strategies can apply to each of them. I am generally in leagues with 18-22 roster spots, so having extra guys around is a luxury.In your situation, I would be inclined to take someone like a Favre that is reliable and plays a lot and someone that I had conviction would do better than expected that is under the radar and leave the third guy alone.

I would agree. In his format Favre will be one of the last good reliable starters in the top 8-12 projected guys...I wouldn't be afraid to pull the trigger a round or 2 later on someone like Brady...also Gries and Harrington offer good value post 10-12th round.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

I agree, I don't know why the disdain for Brooks. I took a look at Brooks' last four years as the starter and behind Culpepper and Manning, he has the best average final FF ranking. Knock on wood, but he has been very healthy and puts up the points.

Three seasons ago I had Brooks and Brady. I was flying high when both of them shot out of the gates in the first half of the season. Then both of them went into the tank down the stretch and cost me the title. It wouldn't have been so bad if one of them was merely stinking up the joint but both of them went belly-up -- and against some prime matchups at the time. I haven't had Brooks since but that's because he's gone before I would take him. But I would never trust him as my QB1 again. If I could get him for a good value as a QB2 I'll take him again. But I just wouldn't be comfortable with him as my QB1 and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Excellent Point! There may only be 6 Qb that should be QB1..or maybe the number is 8 or even 10....but their won't be 12 QB1 that will yield you 20-25 points per week in a 4 pt per pass TD format...I assure you. If you play 6 points per pass TD than you need a QB that can avg 25 a week to keep up with the top QBs.For example ar RB there might be 8 RB that are RB1 by the midpoint of the season, the rest would be better served as RB2...or maybe their are 8 RB2 and the rest behind them are really RB3...you get the idea.

Another example is C.Chamber at WR. He is about #20 in most mags, websites. While he could be considered a WR2 in 12 team leagues, he is better suited as WR3 in start3 leagues. Just because a guy ranks at a certain point doesn't make him a great starter.

Due in large part to that lesson with Brooks and Brady and placing too much faith in Kerry Collins the following season I've revised my thinking when it comes to QBs. I want one of the few guys I feel comfortable with as a QB1. If I have to grab him a round earlier than he would normally go I don't care. I want the security of knowing my QB1 is rock solid and will be there for me to provide solid (or better) production. Last season, I drafted Favre for the first time and backed him up with Delhomme and my QB production was terrific. This season I view the following QBs as being the only ones I'd feel comfortable with as my QB1 week-in and week-out:

Manning

Culpepper

McNabb

Green

Favre

Bulger

That's it. Now there are a few more I'd be OK with as my QB1 but I'd want to make sure I had a strong backup.

Brady

Collins

Delhomme

Palmer

The plan in my draft is to ensure I get one of the guys from the first list (McNabb will be kept so he's out). If I can't, I'll hold off for a round or two and make sure I get someone from the second list. In a perfect world, I'm able to leave the draft with my QB1 coming from the first list and my QB2 coming from the second. That's what I did last season with Favre and Delhomme.

That is funny that you felt comfortable with Favre last season and are OK with Favre, Green and Bulger, all of whom Brooks has done better than over the last 4 years. I know in my league Favre got drafted before Brooks, but he only had 6 more points than Brooks did all season.I was going to reply to your earlier post, but I have gotten tired of trying to defend Brooks. I took him about 2 rounds after Green (only 13 more points all season) and about 3 rounds after Favre and last year he was Mr. Consistent. He averaged 15.75 ppg as my QB with a high of 21 and low of 11. He never had a Manning or Pepp game, but he also had no Vick games. He was always putting points on the board. That also meant I got Tony Gonzalez on my team and he was quite good. I guess I would rather have TG and Brooks than Heap/Shockey (Start 1 TE) and Favre/Green.

Edit to add: I also didn't get Gates late because I picked up TG, but I guess I will take my Championship last year and hope I do well this year without having Gates as a middle round keeper.

Brooks only had four games last season where he threw more than 1 TD in a game. Favre did that nine times. Favre had nine game with 250+ yards, including five games over 300. Brooks topped 250 yards seven times but had only two 300-yard games.I'll take Favre.

Sweet. Selective statistics and a premium price. You go.

 

[Joe Bryant]

MOP,

When do you try to target a QB?

I'm not sure anyone is saying forget about the QB. I'm seeing lots of guys saying they think you can wait a little. But yeah, if you go into the league with your #1 QB as the 20th best QB, you're in trouble. I'm not sure anyone is saying otherwise.

What I see is more people saying you can wait a little and go with the #8 or #9 QB assuming one all important point that seems to be be missed here you must make great picks at the other positions where you're passing on selecting a QB. It's a zero sum game. The idea is you can sacrifice a little star power at QB in exchange for gaining great value at the other positions.

J

 

[NYG Endzone]

Not sure if this helps any but here goes...

04QBfinalrank	last	first	04proj	04adpQBrank1	Culpepper	Daunte	1	12	Manning	Peyton	2	23	McNabb	Donovan	3	54	Green	Trent	6	75	Plummer	Jake	20	156	Favre	Brett	13	117	Delhomme	Jake	15	178	Brooks	Aaron	7	109	Bulger	Marc	10	810	Brady	Tom	8	1211	Brees	Drew	31	3312	Vick	Michael	9	313	Hasselbeck	Matt	4	414	Carr	David	16	1615	Collins	Kerry	41	3516	Testaverde	Vinny	30	3217	Harrington	Joey	21	1918	Leftwich	Byron	17	1419	Bledsoe	Drew	23	2020	Palmer	Carson	18	2221	Roethlisberger	Ben	39	3622	Pennington	Chad	12	924	Volek	Billy	46	4325	Boller	Kyle	27	3126	McCown	Josh	19	2327	Garcia	Jeff	11	1328	Rattay	Tim	26	2929	Warner	Kurt	34	27

 

[stbugs]

Brooks only had four games last season where he threw more than 1 TD in a game. Favre did that nine times. Favre had nine game with 250+ yards, including five games over 300. Brooks topped 250 yards seven times but had only two 300-yard games.

I'll take Favre.

Uh oh, it looks like we are picking on him. StBugs, it's cool if you want to take Brooks again this year and he is built into your plan or maybe you had your draft already, it's cool. I'm just trying to present the info the way I see it, and I could be dead wrong on what I think and Brooks might have a super year. I don't want you to think I am picking on Brooks.

No problem at all! His TDs might be down, but his overall TDs were 25, and his other three years were 26, 27 and 29, so it isn't quite as drastic. Also, he was only 22 yards below his career passing high, which is almost 300 yards more than 2002 and 2003.He isn't built into my plan at all, but if I see other RBs and WRs that I want and can take Brooks that much later, then I won't have a problem with it at all. He may be on the decline based on those stats, but he final end of year fantasy points have been 315, 309, 295, and 300 the last four years. Sure seems like a pretty sure thing. He has almost 200 yards rushing and about 2 TDs rushing a year and gets at least 3500 passing yards every year. As inconsistent as he is some years from game to game, he is pretty consistent year over year.

 

[red]

That is funny that you felt comfortable with Favre last season and are OK with Favre, Green and Bulger, all of whom Brooks has done better than over the last 4 years. I know in my league Favre got drafted before Brooks, but he only had 6 more points than Brooks did all season.

I was going to reply to your earlier post, but I have gotten tired of trying to defend Brooks. I took him about 2 rounds after Green (only 13 more points all season) and about 3 rounds after Favre and last year he was Mr. Consistent. He averaged 15.75 ppg as my QB with a high of 21 and low of 11. He never had a Manning or Pepp game, but he also had no Vick games. He was always putting points on the board. That also meant I got Tony Gonzalez on my team and he was quite good. I guess I would rather have TG and Brooks than Heap/Shockey (Start 1 TE) and Favre/Green.

Edit to add: I also didn't get Gates late   because I picked up TG, but I guess I will take my Championship last year and hope I do well this year without having Gates as a middle round keeper.

In '02 He had 10 games of 2+ TDIn '03 He had 6 games with 2+ TD

in '04 He had 3 games with 2+TD...13 weeks he threw 1 TD or less...

Brooks is on the decline. Those are the facts Jack! I think in '03 not 1 QB threw for 30 TD so it kind of throws the numbers off a bit when you compare over the past 3 years.

last year favre had 8...i don't see that changing much this year.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

MOP,

When do you try to target a QB?

I'm not sure anyone is saying forget about the QB. I'm seeing lots of guys saying they think you can wait a little. But yeah, if you go into the league with your #1 QB as the 20th best QB, you're in trouble. I'm not sure anyone is saying otherwise.

What I see is more people saying you can wait a little and go with the #8 or #9 QB assuming one all important point that seems to be be missed here you must make great picks at the other positions where you're passing on selecting a QB. It's a zero sum game. The idea is you can sacrifice a little star power at QB in exchange for gaining great value at the other positions.

J

Agree Joe, but it's critical that you pick the right one later in the draft. I have taken McNabb when there was tremendous value like him being in the 5th round. I don't think I could pass Manning up in the 2nd if were to somehow fall there. I could pass on Culpepper a lot..andI have when he was sitting on the 2/3 turn in my drafts.I think Bulger, Brady, and Hasselbeck are the best of that 4-12 tier. And I think Delhomme Harrington and Griese are the best in the 13-24.

Manning

McNabb

Bulger

Brady

Hasselbeck

Griese

Delhomme

Harrington

That's 8 I am very confident in. I don't see these 20 QBs that everyone sees...many of them have question marks, problems, etc...I guess I am trying to clean up the QB closet a bit. Waitin till the 10th round is probably going to yield you something like Griese/Delhomme or Griese/Harrington, which may be fine...but we are giving ourselves way too much credit to think that all 9 previous picks are bonafide good ones.

I did a thread on top picks at each round. DOn't know about the rest of you but there are pockets of what I call dead picks in the draft, where nothing really excites me and they all feel the same. Is the guy you snag at WR4 in the 7th/8th round going to be better than securing Hasselbeck if he is there and available?

The other trick to the lesser QB is trying to figure out the matchups...even with the best of technology(FBG), it still gets very dicey on Sundays. Sometimes it's better to just be able to wheel the same guy out everyweek and know you will score X amount of points with a +-2 area.

To answer your question Joe...as soon as the value is there to take one. I've been schooled well.

 

[stbugs]

I agree, I don't know why the disdain for Brooks. I took a look at Brooks' last four years as the starter and behind Culpepper and Manning, he has the best average final FF ranking. Knock on wood, but he has been very healthy and puts up the points.

Three seasons ago I had Brooks and Brady. I was flying high when both of them shot out of the gates in the first half of the season. Then both of them went into the tank down the stretch and cost me the title. It wouldn't have been so bad if one of them was merely stinking up the joint but both of them went belly-up -- and against some prime matchups at the time. I haven't had Brooks since but that's because he's gone before I would take him. But I would never trust him as my QB1 again. If I could get him for a good value as a QB2 I'll take him again. But I just wouldn't be comfortable with him as my QB1 and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Excellent Point! There may only be 6 Qb that should be QB1..or maybe the number is 8 or even 10....but their won't be 12 QB1 that will yield you 20-25 points per week in a 4 pt per pass TD format...I assure you. If you play 6 points per pass TD than you need a QB that can avg 25 a week to keep up with the top QBs.For example ar RB there might be 8 RB that are RB1 by the midpoint of the season, the rest would be better served as RB2...or maybe their are 8 RB2 and the rest behind them are really RB3...you get the idea.

Another example is C.Chamber at WR. He is about #20 in most mags, websites. While he could be considered a WR2 in 12 team leagues, he is better suited as WR3 in start3 leagues. Just because a guy ranks at a certain point doesn't make him a great starter.

Due in large part to that lesson with Brooks and Brady and placing too much faith in Kerry Collins the following season I've revised my thinking when it comes to QBs. I want one of the few guys I feel comfortable with as a QB1. If I have to grab him a round earlier than he would normally go I don't care. I want the security of knowing my QB1 is rock solid and will be there for me to provide solid (or better) production. Last season, I drafted Favre for the first time and backed him up with Delhomme and my QB production was terrific. This season I view the following QBs as being the only ones I'd feel comfortable with as my QB1 week-in and week-out:

Manning

Culpepper

McNabb

Green

Favre

Bulger

That's it. Now there are a few more I'd be OK with as my QB1 but I'd want to make sure I had a strong backup.

Brady

Collins

Delhomme

Palmer

The plan in my draft is to ensure I get one of the guys from the first list (McNabb will be kept so he's out). If I can't, I'll hold off for a round or two and make sure I get someone from the second list. In a perfect world, I'm able to leave the draft with my QB1 coming from the first list and my QB2 coming from the second. That's what I did last season with Favre and Delhomme.

That is funny that you felt comfortable with Favre last season and are OK with Favre, Green and Bulger, all of whom Brooks has done better than over the last 4 years. I know in my league Favre got drafted before Brooks, but he only had 6 more points than Brooks did all season.I was going to reply to your earlier post, but I have gotten tired of trying to defend Brooks. I took him about 2 rounds after Green (only 13 more points all season) and about 3 rounds after Favre and last year he was Mr. Consistent. He averaged 15.75 ppg as my QB with a high of 21 and low of 11. He never had a Manning or Pepp game, but he also had no Vick games. He was always putting points on the board. That also meant I got Tony Gonzalez on my team and he was quite good. I guess I would rather have TG and Brooks than Heap/Shockey (Start 1 TE) and Favre/Green.

Edit to add: I also didn't get Gates late because I picked up TG, but I guess I will take my Championship last year and hope I do well this year without having Gates as a middle round keeper.

Brooks only had four games last season where he threw more than 1 TD in a game. Favre did that nine times. Favre had nine game with 250+ yards, including five games over 300. Brooks topped 250 yards seven times but had only two 300-yard games.I'll take Favre.

Sweet. Selective statistics and a premium price. You go.

I was thinking the same thing, here is another way to look at it using FBG's final year points:2001 - Favre 321, Brooks 315

2002 - Favre 282, Brooks 309

2003 - Favre 277, Brooks 295

2004 - Favre 311, Brooks 300

Tell me again why you would instantly take Favre a full round or two higher than Brooks? Based on FBG rankings, Favre is #7 and Brooks is #10, but based on the sentiment in all the QB threads, I would think that Brooks is going to be available much later.

 

[packersfan]

I agree, I don't know why the disdain for Brooks. I took a look at Brooks' last four years as the starter and behind Culpepper and Manning, he has the best average final FF ranking. Knock on wood, but he has been very healthy and puts up the points.

Three seasons ago I had Brooks and Brady. I was flying high when both of them shot out of the gates in the first half of the season. Then both of them went into the tank down the stretch and cost me the title. It wouldn't have been so bad if one of them was merely stinking up the joint but both of them went belly-up -- and against some prime matchups at the time. I haven't had Brooks since but that's because he's gone before I would take him. But I would never trust him as my QB1 again. If I could get him for a good value as a QB2 I'll take him again. But I just wouldn't be comfortable with him as my QB1 and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Excellent Point! There may only be 6 Qb that should be QB1..or maybe the number is 8 or even 10....but their won't be 12 QB1 that will yield you 20-25 points per week in a 4 pt per pass TD format...I assure you. If you play 6 points per pass TD than you need a QB that can avg 25 a week to keep up with the top QBs.For example ar RB there might be 8 RB that are RB1 by the midpoint of the season, the rest would be better served as RB2...or maybe their are 8 RB2 and the rest behind them are really RB3...you get the idea.

Another example is C.Chamber at WR. He is about #20 in most mags, websites. While he could be considered a WR2 in 12 team leagues, he is better suited as WR3 in start3 leagues. Just because a guy ranks at a certain point doesn't make him a great starter.

Due in large part to that lesson with Brooks and Brady and placing too much faith in Kerry Collins the following season I've revised my thinking when it comes to QBs. I want one of the few guys I feel comfortable with as a QB1. If I have to grab him a round earlier than he would normally go I don't care. I want the security of knowing my QB1 is rock solid and will be there for me to provide solid (or better) production. Last season, I drafted Favre for the first time and backed him up with Delhomme and my QB production was terrific. This season I view the following QBs as being the only ones I'd feel comfortable with as my QB1 week-in and week-out:

Manning

Culpepper

McNabb

Green

Favre

Bulger

That's it. Now there are a few more I'd be OK with as my QB1 but I'd want to make sure I had a strong backup.

Brady

Collins

Delhomme

Palmer

The plan in my draft is to ensure I get one of the guys from the first list (McNabb will be kept so he's out). If I can't, I'll hold off for a round or two and make sure I get someone from the second list. In a perfect world, I'm able to leave the draft with my QB1 coming from the first list and my QB2 coming from the second. That's what I did last season with Favre and Delhomme.

That is funny that you felt comfortable with Favre last season and are OK with Favre, Green and Bulger, all of whom Brooks has done better than over the last 4 years. I know in my league Favre got drafted before Brooks, but he only had 6 more points than Brooks did all season.I was going to reply to your earlier post, but I have gotten tired of trying to defend Brooks. I took him about 2 rounds after Green (only 13 more points all season) and about 3 rounds after Favre and last year he was Mr. Consistent. He averaged 15.75 ppg as my QB with a high of 21 and low of 11. He never had a Manning or Pepp game, but he also had no Vick games. He was always putting points on the board. That also meant I got Tony Gonzalez on my team and he was quite good. I guess I would rather have TG and Brooks than Heap/Shockey (Start 1 TE) and Favre/Green.

Edit to add: I also didn't get Gates late because I picked up TG, but I guess I will take my Championship last year and hope I do well this year without having Gates as a middle round keeper.

Brooks only had four games last season where he threw more than 1 TD in a game. Favre did that nine times. Favre had nine game with 250+ yards, including five games over 300. Brooks topped 250 yards seven times but had only two 300-yard games.I'll take Favre.

Sweet. Selective statistics and a premium price. You go.

What's selective about them? The numbers show that last season Favre was a stronger QB1 option given the fact he had fewer medicore (or worse) TD performance and he was far more likely to deliver standout yardage numbers.I'm not sure what criteria you use to judge your QB1 but the guy I want is a QB who I believe has the strongest potential to generate 2 or more TDs and one who isn't going to disappoint me in terms of yardage and will have several standout weeks in that category.

Using those two categories, Favre clearly was a stronger QB1 option last season than Brooks. Are you attempting to say he wasn't? If so please cite your reasons why. I've cited merely two of the reasons why I was happy with having Favre as my QB1 last season.

 

[Possum]

MOP,

When do you try to target a QB?

I'm not sure anyone is saying forget about the QB. I'm seeing lots of guys saying they think you can wait a little. But yeah, if you go into the league with your #1 QB as the 20th best QB, you're in trouble. I'm not sure anyone is saying otherwise.

What I see is more people saying you can wait a little and go with the #8 or #9 QB assuming one all important point that seems to be be missed here you must make great picks at the other positions where you're passing on selecting a QB. It's a zero sum game. The idea is you can sacrifice a little star power at QB in exchange for gaining great value at the other positions.

J

the main league I'm in is a 10-teamer with 6pts/pass TD - in that format I think it's very much worth it to spend a 3rd or 4th rounder on a QB that can put up 20+ points consistently. Like you said, there's no margin for error if you're drafting a QB late - you have to draft great at WR and RB to make up for having the #8-10 QB. For instance last year, Manning and Culpepper each put up multiple 40+ pt games and averaged around 30ppg for the year - if you're starting a QB who averages around 15-18 ppg with the occasional 25 pt burst you could be looking at a pretty big hole for your other guys to dig you out of, most weeks. (The Manning/Cpep owners finished 1-2 in total points last year.)I think this year with the logjam at RB from about 7-20 it's even more important to make sure that I draft a top-5 QB - drafting out of the 9 spot and I plan to go RB-RB-QB with Culpepper, Bulger, Favre or McNabb (or possibly RB-RB-WR-QB if the #10 drafter takes Culpepper in rd 1-2). I feel like you can always find decent receivers in rds 4-6 and the disparity from #1 WR on down isn't as great as at RB and QB.

this probably doesn't apply as much in 4pt/pass TD leagues but in my league I feel it's pretty important. Having a 10 pt edge with your running backs doesn't mean as much if you're staring at a 12-15 pt difference at QB.

JMO.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

I agree, I don't know why the disdain for Brooks. I took a look at Brooks' last four years as the starter and behind Culpepper and Manning, he has the best average final FF ranking. Knock on wood, but he has been very healthy and puts up the points.

Three seasons ago I had Brooks and Brady. I was flying high when both of them shot out of the gates in the first half of the season. Then both of them went into the tank down the stretch and cost me the title. It wouldn't have been so bad if one of them was merely stinking up the joint but both of them went belly-up -- and against some prime matchups at the time. I haven't had Brooks since but that's because he's gone before I would take him. But I would never trust him as my QB1 again. If I could get him for a good value as a QB2 I'll take him again. But I just wouldn't be comfortable with him as my QB1 and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Excellent Point! There may only be 6 Qb that should be QB1..or maybe the number is 8 or even 10....but their won't be 12 QB1 that will yield you 20-25 points per week in a 4 pt per pass TD format...I assure you. If you play 6 points per pass TD than you need a QB that can avg 25 a week to keep up with the top QBs.For example ar RB there might be 8 RB that are RB1 by the midpoint of the season, the rest would be better served as RB2...or maybe their are 8 RB2 and the rest behind them are really RB3...you get the idea.

Another example is C.Chamber at WR. He is about #20 in most mags, websites. While he could be considered a WR2 in 12 team leagues, he is better suited as WR3 in start3 leagues. Just because a guy ranks at a certain point doesn't make him a great starter.

Due in large part to that lesson with Brooks and Brady and placing too much faith in Kerry Collins the following season I've revised my thinking when it comes to QBs. I want one of the few guys I feel comfortable with as a QB1. If I have to grab him a round earlier than he would normally go I don't care. I want the security of knowing my QB1 is rock solid and will be there for me to provide solid (or better) production. Last season, I drafted Favre for the first time and backed him up with Delhomme and my QB production was terrific. This season I view the following QBs as being the only ones I'd feel comfortable with as my QB1 week-in and week-out:

Manning

Culpepper

McNabb

Green

Favre

Bulger

That's it. Now there are a few more I'd be OK with as my QB1 but I'd want to make sure I had a strong backup.

Brady

Collins

Delhomme

Palmer

The plan in my draft is to ensure I get one of the guys from the first list (McNabb will be kept so he's out). If I can't, I'll hold off for a round or two and make sure I get someone from the second list. In a perfect world, I'm able to leave the draft with my QB1 coming from the first list and my QB2 coming from the second. That's what I did last season with Favre and Delhomme.

That is funny that you felt comfortable with Favre last season and are OK with Favre, Green and Bulger, all of whom Brooks has done better than over the last 4 years. I know in my league Favre got drafted before Brooks, but he only had 6 more points than Brooks did all season.I was going to reply to your earlier post, but I have gotten tired of trying to defend Brooks. I took him about 2 rounds after Green (only 13 more points all season) and about 3 rounds after Favre and last year he was Mr. Consistent. He averaged 15.75 ppg as my QB with a high of 21 and low of 11. He never had a Manning or Pepp game, but he also had no Vick games. He was always putting points on the board. That also meant I got Tony Gonzalez on my team and he was quite good. I guess I would rather have TG and Brooks than Heap/Shockey (Start 1 TE) and Favre/Green.

Edit to add: I also didn't get Gates late because I picked up TG, but I guess I will take my Championship last year and hope I do well this year without having Gates as a middle round keeper.

Brooks only had four games last season where he threw more than 1 TD in a game. Favre did that nine times. Favre had nine game with 250+ yards, including five games over 300. Brooks topped 250 yards seven times but had only two 300-yard games.I'll take Favre.

Sweet. Selective statistics and a premium price. You go.

What's selective about them? The numbers show that last season Favre was a stronger QB1 option given the fact he had fewer medicore (or worse) TD performance and he was far more likely to deliver standout yardage numbers.I'm not sure what criteria you use to judge your QB1 but the guy I want is a QB who I believe has the strongest potential to generate 2 or more TDs and one who isn't going to disappoint me in terms of yardage and will have several standout weeks in that category.

Using those two categories, Favre clearly was a stronger QB1 option last season than Brooks. Are you attempting to say he wasn't? If so please cite your reasons why. I've cited merely two of the reasons why I was happy with having Favre as my QB1 last season.

No need to, packersfan. See the post above yours, where you have been

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I was thinking the same thing, here is another way to look at it using FBG's final year points:

2001 - Favre 321, Brooks 315

2002 - Favre 282, Brooks 309

2003 - Favre 277, Brooks 295

2004 - Favre 311, Brooks 300

Tell me again why you would instantly take Favre a full round or two higher than Brooks? Based on FBG rankings, Favre is #7 and Brooks is #10, but based on the sentiment in all the QB threads, I would think that Brooks is going to be available much later.

In 6 point TD passing leagues and 1 point per 20 PassFavre 370

Brooks 343

Favre was a lot more explosive with 9 games of 2+ TD compared to Brooks 3

Favre threw for 30 TD to Brooks 21...Brooks added 4 rushing.

Favre is averaging close to 2 points more per week so he is really 1 tier above Brooks.

Let's not slice hairs, I am not disputing Brooks as a viable starter the past 3-4 years. I am not projecting him to do as well this year, you are, difference of opinion friend, that's all.

 

[stbugs]

I agree, I don't know why the disdain for Brooks. I took a look at Brooks' last four years as the starter and behind Culpepper and Manning, he has the best average final FF ranking. Knock on wood, but he has been very healthy and puts up the points.

Three seasons ago I had Brooks and Brady. I was flying high when both of them shot out of the gates in the first half of the season. Then both of them went into the tank down the stretch and cost me the title. It wouldn't have been so bad if one of them was merely stinking up the joint but both of them went belly-up -- and against some prime matchups at the time. I haven't had Brooks since but that's because he's gone before I would take him. But I would never trust him as my QB1 again. If I could get him for a good value as a QB2 I'll take him again. But I just wouldn't be comfortable with him as my QB1 and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Excellent Point! There may only be 6 Qb that should be QB1..or maybe the number is 8 or even 10....but their won't be 12 QB1 that will yield you 20-25 points per week in a 4 pt per pass TD format...I assure you. If you play 6 points per pass TD than you need a QB that can avg 25 a week to keep up with the top QBs.For example ar RB there might be 8 RB that are RB1 by the midpoint of the season, the rest would be better served as RB2...or maybe their are 8 RB2 and the rest behind them are really RB3...you get the idea.

Another example is C.Chamber at WR. He is about #20 in most mags, websites. While he could be considered a WR2 in 12 team leagues, he is better suited as WR3 in start3 leagues. Just because a guy ranks at a certain point doesn't make him a great starter.

Due in large part to that lesson with Brooks and Brady and placing too much faith in Kerry Collins the following season I've revised my thinking when it comes to QBs. I want one of the few guys I feel comfortable with as a QB1. If I have to grab him a round earlier than he would normally go I don't care. I want the security of knowing my QB1 is rock solid and will be there for me to provide solid (or better) production. Last season, I drafted Favre for the first time and backed him up with Delhomme and my QB production was terrific. This season I view the following QBs as being the only ones I'd feel comfortable with as my QB1 week-in and week-out:

Manning

Culpepper

McNabb

Green

Favre

Bulger

That's it. Now there are a few more I'd be OK with as my QB1 but I'd want to make sure I had a strong backup.

Brady

Collins

Delhomme

Palmer

The plan in my draft is to ensure I get one of the guys from the first list (McNabb will be kept so he's out). If I can't, I'll hold off for a round or two and make sure I get someone from the second list. In a perfect world, I'm able to leave the draft with my QB1 coming from the first list and my QB2 coming from the second. That's what I did last season with Favre and Delhomme.

That is funny that you felt comfortable with Favre last season and are OK with Favre, Green and Bulger, all of whom Brooks has done better than over the last 4 years. I know in my league Favre got drafted before Brooks, but he only had 6 more points than Brooks did all season.I was going to reply to your earlier post, but I have gotten tired of trying to defend Brooks. I took him about 2 rounds after Green (only 13 more points all season) and about 3 rounds after Favre and last year he was Mr. Consistent. He averaged 15.75 ppg as my QB with a high of 21 and low of 11. He never had a Manning or Pepp game, but he also had no Vick games. He was always putting points on the board. That also meant I got Tony Gonzalez on my team and he was quite good. I guess I would rather have TG and Brooks than Heap/Shockey (Start 1 TE) and Favre/Green.

Edit to add: I also didn't get Gates late because I picked up TG, but I guess I will take my Championship last year and hope I do well this year without having Gates as a middle round keeper.

Brooks only had four games last season where he threw more than 1 TD in a game. Favre did that nine times. Favre had nine game with 250+ yards, including five games over 300. Brooks topped 250 yards seven times but had only two 300-yard games.I'll take Favre.

Sweet. Selective statistics and a premium price. You go.

What's selective about them? The numbers show that last season Favre was a stronger QB1 option given the fact he had fewer medicore (or worse) TD performance and he was far more likely to deliver standout yardage numbers.I'm not sure what criteria you use to judge your QB1 but the guy I want is a QB who I believe has the strongest potential to generate 2 or more TDs and one who isn't going to disappoint me in terms of yardage and will have several standout weeks in that category.

Using those two categories, Favre clearly was a stronger QB1 option last season than Brooks. Are you attempting to say he wasn't? If so please cite your reasons why. I've cited merely two of the reasons why I was happy with having Favre as my QB1 last season.

Here is a good selective stat for you:Favre had 6 games of 15.5 fantasy points or less, Brooks only had 3. Also, Favre had 2 games of 10 or less fantasy point, Brooks had none.

That means that while Favre had more good games, he also had twice as many bad games and two stinkers while Brooks had none.

So either way you look at it, they basically had very similar production except for the fact that I know I got Brooks much later than Favre and was able to get better players before I selected my first QB than the guy that grabbed Favre.

 

[packersfan]

That means that while Favre had more good games, he also had twice as many bad games and two stinkers while Brooks had none.

He had no stinkers? A 0-TD game from your QB1 doesn't count as a stinker in your opinion? You're giddy about 189 yards/1 TD from your starting QB? How about 173/1? Those aren't stinkers to you? I guess we have a different definition of the word. In my reply to the blowup doll I listed the criteria by which I judge my QB1. In my opinion, and based on the statistics I listed, Favre clearly met that criteria last season. Brooks did not.

 

[David Yudkin]

One all important point that seems to be be missed here you must make great picks at the other positions where you're passing on selecting a QB. It's a zero sum game. The idea is you can sacrifice a little star power at QB in exchange for gaining great value at the other positions.

J

As much as I hate to go up against the big man, I think this is somewhat flaVVed. If you don't make great picks at several positions throughout a draft you are going down like the Titanic. No matter how you slice it, even if you make poor draft day decisions and COMPOUND yuor mistakes by missing at QB, you would be dead in the water regardless.There are no absolutes here. A player can bomb, players get injured, it's a lot of luck to win it all. I would say this, though, there's not a lot of luck in fielding a competitive team.

As for MOP's example of Plummer running out of steam at the wrong time, them's the breaks, I suppose. At least he was playing. Many other picks at other positions (specifically RB) were out of the lineup or benched at that point, so everything is relative.

While in this thread I am advocating waiting on QB, this is not my 100% methodology to draft QB. This year alone in different drafts I have taken: a Big 3 QB, paired two Top 5-6 QB, waited and took several so-so guys, and all points in between. You have to be able to change up your strategy on the fly, as guys will go sooner or later than expected and you have to adapt.

But in most standard scoring/alignment leagues, you can stand to wait and not lose much in terms of comparitive value.

 

[stbugs]

I was thinking the same thing, here is another way to look at it using FBG's final year points:

2001 - Favre 321, Brooks 315

2002 - Favre 282, Brooks 309

2003 - Favre 277, Brooks 295

2004 - Favre 311, Brooks 300

Tell me again why you would instantly take Favre a full round or two higher than Brooks? Based on FBG rankings, Favre is #7 and Brooks is #10, but based on the sentiment in all the QB threads, I would think that Brooks is going to be available much later.

In 6 point TD passing leagues and 1 point per 20 PassFavre 370

Brooks 343

Favre was a lot more explosive with 9 games of 2+ TD compared to Brooks 3

Favre threw for 30 TD to Brooks 21...Brooks added 4 rushing.

Favre is averaging close to 2 points more per week so he is really 1 tier above Brooks.

Let's not slice hairs, I am not disputing Brooks as a viable starter the past 3-4 years. I am not projecting him to do as well this year, you are, difference of opinion friend, that's all.

I gotcha, just having fun In 6 point per TD leagues, things are obviously different and a guy like Favre who always has high TDs will be better than Brooks who always gets some decent rushing stats and keeps his INTs a little lower. That is why I always used the FBG stats so we can try and compare apples to apples.

I guess my only thought is that just because NO stated that they want to run more that people are throwing Brooks away and I think that is a little bit of an overreaction. It seems like in other threads I see the posts that if one part of an offense does better then it opens up the other, but for Brooks all I tend to see is it is going to take him down. Brooks has no competition, he will start every week he is healthy and his team isn't going to run away with the NFC so there is no worries about your playoffs.

There is something to be said about guys like Brooks, Manning and Favre, who never miss playing time, injuries kill seasons and those guys (aside from Manning sitting) have not missed one game since they became starters. Now that I said that, I think I will not be drafting any of those three as this will come back to haunt me.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Here is a good selective stat for you:

Favre had 6 games of 15.5 fantasy points or less, Brooks only had 3. Also, Favre had 2 games of 10 or less fantasy point, Brooks had none.

That means that while Favre had more good games, he also had twice as many bad games and two stinkers while Brooks had none.

So either way you look at it, they basically had very similar production except for the fact that I know I got Brooks much later than Favre and was able to get better players before I selected my first QB than the guy that grabbed Favre.

Somewhere this got personal and became a hijack of Favre vs Brooks.No one is argueing that you did well last season...you won your league as you noted earlier...Kudos.

I am just not going to say Brooks will fair as well as he has in recent past...I see him being outside of the top10 this season. You can disagree but bickering over prvious stats is not the point.

Here's my question for you. Why do you think Brooks will fair well this season? Assuming the Saints pound the ball more. Because you can't possibly think that Brooks is a better NFL QB than Favre

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

I'm not sure why you bother, stbugs. You have more patience than I.

 

[packersfan]

In 6 point per TD leagues, things are obviously different and a guy like Favre who always has high TDs will be better than Brooks who always gets some decent rushing stats and keeps his INTs a little lower.

This is another area of concern I have with Brooks. His TD passes have declined each of the past two seasons and his INTs spiked significantly last season. In fact, based on what we've seen from him in his four full seasons as a starter it's looking like his low 2003 output was a fluke. Instead 15+ INTs appears to be the norm for Brooks.

 

[NYG Endzone]

I see some value here in bold...

ADP LAST FIRST 2yrPPG

15 Culpepper Daunte 25

5 Manning Peyton 23

44 Bulger Marc 20

48 Green Trent 20

27 McNabb Donovan 20

81 Plummer Jake 19

72 Hasselbeck Matt 19

83 Brooks Aaron 19

61 Favre Brett 18

119 McNair Steve 18

64 Brady Tom 17

198 Garcia Jeff 17

55 Vick Michael 17

92 Delhomme Jake 17

88 Brees Drew 17

56 Collins Kerry 16

103 Pennington Chad 16

118 Griese Brian 16

105 Leftwich Byron 15

106 Carr David 15

214 Ramsey Patrick 14

121 Harrington Joey 14

132 Warner Kurt 13

151 Bledsoe Drew 13

158 Boller Kyle 10

 

[stbugs]

That means that while Favre had more good games, he also had twice as many bad games and two stinkers while Brooks had none.

He had no stinkers? A 0-TD game from your QB1 doesn't count as a stinker in your opinion? You're giddy about 189 yards/1 TD from your starting QB? How about 173/1? Those aren't stinkers to you? I guess we have a different definition of the word. In my reply to the blowup doll I listed the criteria by which I judge my QB1. In my opinion, and based on the statistics I listed, Favre clearly met that criteria last season. Brooks did not.

That 173/1 game was better than two of Favre's games and yes I am giddy about a 189/1 game when he also has a rushing TD. In my league, that is equivalent to a 239/2 game, which equates to 3800 and 32 for the season, which is better than he actually did.Again, my point is that you are so certain about Favre and not Brooks when Brooks has outranked and outscored him over the last four years. I wouldn't mind either as my QB1 if it meant that I had done better at RB/WR than the guys with Manning/Culpepper/McNabb, etc. I am now thinking about waiting on Brooks even more based on all of the bad sentiment if Favre goes a few rounds earlier even though his upside in FBG fantasy points is 6 points for the year better than Brooks' best.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I'm not sure why you bother. You have more patience than I.

Did you have to quote the whole thing?

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

In 6 point per TD leagues, things are obviously different and a guy like Favre who always has high TDs will be better than Brooks who always gets some decent rushing stats and keeps his INTs a little lower.

This is another area of concern I have with Brooks. His TD passes have declined each of the past two seasons and his INTs spiked significantly last season. In fact, based on what we've seen from him in his four full seasons as a starter it's looking like his low 2003 output was a fluke. Instead 15+ INTs appears to be the norm for Brooks.

And maybe, just possibly, this might be a reason he is available @ TWO ROUNDS LATER THAN FAVRE.

 

[jurb26]

As much as I love a good can we get the quotes in the threads cut down just a tad... makes it cumbersome to read.TIA

 

[packersfan]

That means that while Favre had more good games, he also had twice as many bad games and two stinkers while Brooks had none.

He had no stinkers? A 0-TD game from your QB1 doesn't count as a stinker in your opinion? You're giddy about 189 yards/1 TD from your starting QB? How about 173/1? Those aren't stinkers to you? I guess we have a different definition of the word. In my reply to the blowup doll I listed the criteria by which I judge my QB1. In my opinion, and based on the statistics I listed, Favre clearly met that criteria last season. Brooks did not.

That 173/1 game was better than two of Favre's games and yes I am giddy about a 189/1 game when he also has a rushing TD.

Nice catch there and my bad for missing. it.

Again, my point is that you are so certain about Favre and not Brooks when Brooks has outranked and outscored him over the last four years. I wouldn't mind either as my QB1 if it meant that I had done better at RB/WR than the guys with Manning/Culpepper/McNabb, etc. I am now thinking about waiting on Brooks even more based on all of the bad sentiment if Favre goes a few rounds earlier even though his upside in FBG fantasy points is 6 points for the year better than Brooks' best.

Fair enough. I'm not trying to dissuade you from drafting Brooks. But again when I'm looking at a QB1 I want someone who has the best chance to step up with multiple TD games and big-yardage games. Are you saying that's something Brooks did well last season?

 

[packersfan]

In 6 point per TD leagues, things are obviously different and a guy like Favre who always has high TDs will be better than Brooks who always gets some decent rushing stats and keeps his INTs a little lower.

This is another area of concern I have with Brooks. His TD passes have declined each of the past two seasons and his INTs spiked significantly last season. In fact, based on what we've seen from him in his four full seasons as a starter it's looking like his low 2003 output was a fluke. Instead 15+ INTs appears to be the norm for Brooks.

And maybe, just possibly, this might be a reason he is available @ TWO ROUNDS LATER THAN FAVRE.

Gee, ya think? Impressive.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

In 6 point per TD leagues, things are obviously different and a guy like Favre who always has high TDs will be better than Brooks who always gets some decent rushing stats and keeps his INTs a little lower.

This is another area of concern I have with Brooks. His TD passes have declined each of the past two seasons and his INTs spiked significantly last season. In fact, based on what we've seen from him in his four full seasons as a starter it's looking like his low 2003 output was a fluke. Instead 15+ INTs appears to be the norm for Brooks.

And maybe, just possibly, this might be a reason he is available @ TWO ROUNDS LATER THAN FAVRE.

Gee, ya think? Impressive.

So, what was your argument, again? You know, the part where you got lost comparing the two QB's with "explosive games" and other such drivel, all-the-while hopelessly leaning on your simple contention of, "I'll take Favre".Now think for a minute, before you start reaching for more selective statistics to toss into your extremely weak position of taking a comparable QB TWO ROUNDS EARLIER.

 

[glock]

Enough of the Favre/Brooks love fest already...Sheesh! Went QBBC at $200 cap auction/keeper last season and wound up taking the following to the championship game: E.O.YRank / Player / Salary8......Plummer... $29......Brady... $1210....Brees... $0 (F/A)How many thought these 3 would end up Top 10?Where do you place them this year?

 

[Your Mom]

I just grabbed Mcnabb at 4.03 in a redraft on antsports. Thought about Hines ward or Michael Clayton and waiting till next round for a QB, but could not pass up a player that can carry my team to victory by himself.

 

[stbugs]

Enough of the Favre/Brooks love fest already...Sheesh!

Went QBBC at $200 cap auction/keeper last season and wound up taking the following to the championship game:

E.O.Y

Rank / Player / Salary

8......Plummer... $2

9......Brady... $12

10....Brees... $0 (F/A)

How many thought these 3 would end up Top 10?

Where do you place them this year?

Sorry....Brady was a good bet since he had done it before and will probably do it again. Brady, as MOP trying to point out, is kind of a top 10, but just barely top 10. If you get him late enough and solidy the rest of your team then you will be fine. Plummer is probably stalking the top 10 again since not much has changed, but again he will probably be 8-12 type range and even if he is higher he will still be in the same group of people that seem to hang a few spots before to a few spots after 10.

Brees, however, I am not as high on. Tomlinson is much healthier and Brees had a career year. His Y/A and TD/INT ratio was fantastic. He has a decent receiving crew, but I am just not sold on him because he was so inconsistent and had more than half (15 of 27) of his TDs in only 4 games and 33% in only 2 games. Based on the Favre/Brooks discussion Brees had 4 stinkers, under 10 fantasy points, which means in 4 games, he was lights out and another 4 he stunk. The other 7 he was average. I guess that is what rubs me the wrong way, he has not done enough career wise for me to want to pick him (unless at QB2) close to Plummer and Brady because he could easily regress and lose you a lot of games. When you are waiting on a QB, you need to make sure you grab a guy who is going to give you consistent points because you can't expect them to pull a Manning and win you a game by themselves.