Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (2 Viewers)

[Limp Ditka]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

1:24 the cops get out of their unit

1:40 first shot fired

1:43 last shot fired.

During the majority of those first 16 seconds, before a shot was fired, the guy was armed, acting irrationally and moving towards the police when told not too.

16 ### ####ed seconds.

You do better. I'd love to see it.

 

[matttyl]

Does that sound like a trustworthy police force to you?

Sure it does, but again I'm not going to lump each and every one of them in with having been partial to those practices. Enron was a crafty place - were all of it's employees horrible people, too?

No, but there's a big financial reporting problem at a place I'm investigating, and there are two accountants involved, and one of them used to work at Enron... guess which one I first think might be the problem?

And that's fair, and honestly exactly my point. You're using knowledge of prior infractions of the law against that accountant. I'm doing the same against Brown - cause I've seen it with my own eyes, which carries much more weight in my eyes than having a "connection" to a group of folks who've had infractions.

 

[msommer]

Maybe I am oversimplifying things, but the simplest explanation, in my mind, is:

Cop yells at kids, kids tell them to #### off, cop rolls up next to them, door slam/scuffle/whatever results in cop getting thumped in the head, kids run, cop is pissed and was "attacked", cop shoots. (and shoots, and shoots, and shoots).

Yeah, that's kinda where I am, too.

But the kid wasn't running away when he was shot.

Which time he was shot? And how do you know?

Why is it so hard for people to imagine that Brown was running from the cop and that the cop shot at Brown and he realized he wasnt out running a bullet ,turned around and was then shot in the front of his body and head?

It doesn't fit wit their view of the world, perhaps

My quesiton to you two: is it easier or harder to hit someone the further away they are from the person shooting. Seems pretty clear that by moving toward someone shooting at you, you're more likely to get shot than moving away from the shooter.

From my limited experience with any kind of ballistic weapon, the further away an object is the harder it is to hit it.

The movement of the object also plays in, though.

Unless Brown was shot right next to the cruiser (which no one so far has claimed), he had to have been running (or at least moving) away at some time

 

[Henry Ford]

Does that sound like a trustworthy police force to you?

Sure it does, but again I'm not going to lump each and every one of them in with having been partial to those practices. Enron was a crafty place - were all of it's employees horrible people, too?

No, but there's a big financial reporting problem at a place I'm investigating, and there are two accountants involved, and one of them used to work at Enron... guess which one I first think might be the problem?

And that's fair, and honestly exactly my point. You're using knowledge of prior infractions of the law against that accountant. I'm doing the same against Brown - cause I've seen it with my own eyes, which carries much more weight in my eyes than having a "connection" to a group of folks who've had infractions.

And I'm saying that what Brown did in that convenience store does absolutely nothing to convince me that he'd get into a charging match with a police officer pointing a gun at him. I get where you're coming from with me. I just don't agree with you. I see a massive gap between a person who does that in a convenience store and the person you're describing on the street. It's virtually irrelevant, except to give a reason why Brown might have been agitated or belligerent/aggressive with the officer (because he'd committed a crime just before.)

If he'd beaten the hell out of the convenience store clerk? On your side. If he'd punched the guy even once instead of pushing him out of the way, maybe I'm more convinced it's the same type of guy. As it is, I am not.

 

[Sweet J]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

1:24 the cops get out of their unit

1:40 first shot fired

1:43 last shot fired.

During the majority of those first 16 seconds, before a shot was fired, the guy was armed, acting irrationally and moving towards the police when told not too.

16 ### ####ed seconds.

You do better. I'd love to see it.

If I didn't have a gun at my disposal, I'm sure me and a good-sized buddy, armed and trained with Tazers and Pepper Spray, could deal with this without anyone dying.

If I have a gun in my hand, and not otherwise trained to deal with this situation . . . there is a good chance I'm shooting somebody.

I guess therein lies the rub.

 

[kentric]

Since this story gained national attention, it seems like every piece of evidence that has been released is strengthening the officer being in the right.

Why in this case, as well as the TM one, is the original narrative misleading which strikes outrage and only when time goes by and more bits and pieces of information come out do we learn what actually happened isn't close to what was first portrayed.

If you were a staunch defender of the victim in either case, don't you feel a bit betrayed or duped when you find out what you were supporting turns out to be completely different? Youve been put in a tough spot to have to change your position as more facts come out. It's hard to blame anyone for grasping at alternative scenarios in order to avoid having to admit they were on the wrong side. Some never will. It's a shame.

in both cases, reasonable people allow facts to inform their opinions and then change them if necessary.One guy I have to give a lot of credit to in the Zimmerman case is Jon Mx. Even though we argued the whole way through (and I still don't agree with his conclusions) he started out believing GZ was guilty, learned more facts, and then changed his mind. I admire that he allowed facts to change his opinion.

As for me, right now I strongly believe that Wilson committed the act of murder by shooting at an unarmed man from a distance of 30 feet. If I learn new facts, such as that the distance was actually 5 or 10 feet, then I'm going to change my mind once again (because from a short distance apart it's plausible that Wilson could have reasonably considered any sudden movement by Brown to be a threat.)

Tim. I think part of the reason people give you a hard time is you flip-flop on your positions so often. Jon was very heavy one way and then changed his positon once. You tend to sway in the wind. Unless you enjoy the attention of people mocking you (hell, it can be entertaining in a way), you may want to just sit on the fence until something conclusive comes down.

 

[[icon]]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

But the police didn't have a chance to see any of that. They showed up to a call with a report of a weapon. Someone was concerned enough to call the police. And then they saw the subject of the call with a weapon advancing toward them.

There's quite a bit of "what they knew" going on here. And the troubling fact that they lied about the details.

You are out of your damn mind. If there is no outrage when there is clear video evidence that a police officer unnecessarily shot and killed a man, there will be no outrage when there is no video evidence and conflicting eyewitness testimony and police who will lie to excuse their actions.

There is a thread dedicated to this where this has all been discussed.. you should go there.

 

[BassNBrew]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

I agree with you in principle. Police should be trained to defuse these situations in the least lethal manner possible. Basic human decency should result in pulling the trigger being the last possible action taken.

That being said, when the cops have guns drawn and tell you to get on the ground, you're taking your chances when you advance on them paying no heed to their instructions.

 

[Redwes25]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

That is tough to watch.

 

[Sweet J]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

I agree with you in principle. Police should be trained to defuse these situations in the least lethal manner possible. Basic human decency should result in pulling the trigger being the last possible action taken.

That being said, when the cops have guns drawn and tell you to get on the ground, you're taking your chances when you advance on them paying no heed to their instructions.

I don't disagree with this at all. His death was a direct result of his actions. But I expect more from the police.

 

[Sweet J]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

But the police didn't have a chance to see any of that. They showed up to a call with a report of a weapon. Someone was concerned enough to call the police. And then they saw the subject of the call with a weapon advancing toward them.

There's quite a bit of "what they knew" going on here. And the troubling fact that they lied about the details.

You are out of your damn mind. If there is no outrage when there is clear video evidence that a police officer unnecessarily shot and killed a man, there will be no outrage when there is no video evidence and conflicting eyewitness testimony and police who will lie to excuse their actions.

There is a thread dedicated to this where this has all been discussed.. you should go there.

You are right. I didn't see it. Sorry to hijack.

 

[jon_mx]

It is amazing how cut and dry these stories start out to be where the white guy is clearly in the wrong and as the facts slowly come out perhaps there was justification to the act after all.

White people are so victimized in this country!

Jesus. You claim you hate when someone does this ####, yet you do it all of the time. It's Timpocrisies like this that bother people the most.

not the same as what you did, but here's a hint: when I start comparing you to my wife, there's a bit of sarcasm involved. As there is here.

It's exactly the same thing! You took what he said and turned the dial to 11 on it. The fact that you can't see that is funny. Not ha ha funny. More like odd funny.

the difference is he says it all the time. You were responding to one comment. I was responding to a large group of comments, of which this is the latest.

What do I do all the time? Can I see a link to all these? Should be easy since it is all the time. I thought I made a simple statement which is true.

 

[Redwes25]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

I agree with you completely.

 

[[icon]]

If I didn't have a gun at my disposal, I'm sure me and a good-sized buddy, armed and trained with Tazers and Pepper Spray, could deal with this without anyone dying.

If I have a gun in my hand, and not otherwise trained to deal with this situation . . . there is a good chance I'm shooting somebody.

I guess therein lies the rub.

So officers are supposed to risk their lives by going into hand/hand combat with every crazy person with a knife? Are you delusional or trolling? These guys have wives and kids to go home to as well.

Pepper spray does nothing in the scenario... tazer may do nothing as well. Both options are surprisingly frequently ineffective...especially against an intoxoicated/drugged individual (which this guy's actions certainly could be construed as).

The 5' gap could be closed with a single lunge in a fraction of a second. Switching from a firearm to a taser in hand takes much longer than that.

I'm sorry you are upset by this, but you are dead wrong in how this was handled. Unlike the situation this thread is actually about, this was pretty much textbook.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

1:24 the cops get out of their unit

1:40 first shot fired

1:43 last shot fired.

During the majority of those first 16 seconds, before a shot was fired, the guy was armed, acting irrationally and moving towards the police when told not too.

16 ### ####ed seconds.

You do better. I'd love to see it.

If I didn't have a gun at my disposal, I'm sure me and a good-sized buddy, armed and trained with Tazers and Pepper Spray, could deal with this without anyone dying.

If I have a gun in my hand, and not otherwise trained to deal with this situation . . . there is a good chance I'm shooting somebody.

I guess therein lies the rub.

My only issue is that if you're going to fire that many shots, why not send a few at his legs before going to the torso?

 

[matttyl]

And that's fair, and honestly exactly my point. You're using knowledge of prior infractions of the law against that accountant. I'm doing the same against Brown - cause I've seen it with my own eyes, which carries much more weight in my eyes than having a "connection" to a group of folks who've had infractions.

And I'm saying that what Brown did in that convenience store does absolutely nothing to convince me that he'd get into a charging match with a police officer pointing a gun at him. I get where you're coming from with me. I just don't agree with you. I see a massive gap between a person who does that in a convenience store and the person you're describing on the street. It's virtually irrelevant, except to give a reason why Brown might have been agitated or belligerent/aggressive with the officer (because he'd committed a crime just before.)

If he'd beaten the hell out of the convenience store clerk? On your side. If he'd punched the guy even once instead of pushing him out of the way, maybe I'm more convinced it's the same type of guy. As it is, I am not.

I don't think I've said anything about Brown in a charging match as what actually happened. We don't know what happened - so all we have now are assumptions and what ifs. All I'm saying if that if I have to give the benefit of the doubt, I'll side with the officer at this point in that he may have justifiably shot Brown. New evidence could change that, sure - but we don't have that new evidence yet.

 

[kentric]

Where is Dexter when you need him. It would seem that a blood-splatter expert could shed some like on Brown's positioning through the fight. If he was shot staying in one location (hand up in the air and being shot 5-6 times), then the blood should be within a set area. If he starting running toward Wilson, I would think there would be some kind of blood trail.

 

[johnnycakes]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

1:24 the cops get out of their unit

1:40 first shot fired

1:43 last shot fired.

During the majority of those first 16 seconds, before a shot was fired, the guy was armed, acting irrationally and moving towards the police when told not too.

16 ### ####ed seconds.

You do better. I'd love to see it.

If I didn't have a gun at my disposal, I'm sure me and a good-sized buddy, armed and trained with Tazers and Pepper Spray, could deal with this without anyone dying.

If I have a gun in my hand, and not otherwise trained to deal with this situation . . . there is a good chance I'm shooting somebody.

I guess therein lies the rub.

My only issue is that if you're going to fire that many shots, why not send a few at his legs before going to the torso?

Legs are a much smaller target, moving more, more likely to miss and hit someone else, and even if you do hit, may not stop the guy. Plus, it's not SOP.

 

[timschochet]

It is amazing how cut and dry these stories start out to be where the white guy is clearly in the wrong and as the facts slowly come out perhaps there was justification to the act after all.

White people are so victimized in this country!

Jesus. You claim you hate when someone does this ####, yet you do it all of the time. It's Timpocrisies like this that bother people the most.

not the same as what you did, but here's a hint: when I start comparing you to my wife, there's a bit of sarcasm involved. As there is here.

It's exactly the same thing! You took what he said and turned the dial to 11 on it. The fact that you can't see that is funny. Not ha ha funny. More like odd funny.

the difference is he says it all the time. You were responding to one comment. I was responding to a large group of comments, of which this is the latest.

What do I do all the time? Can I see a link to all these? Should be easy since it is all the time. I thought I made a simple statement which is true.

In every situation that is racially charged, you defend the white guy. In every situation in which the police actions are questions, you defend the police. That is my impression. I'm not going to waste time gathering links. If you can come up with examples to the contrary, I will retract the statement.

 

[TheIronSheik]

It is amazing how cut and dry these stories start out to be where the white guy is clearly in the wrong and as the facts slowly come out perhaps there was justification to the act after all.

White people are so victimized in this country!

Jesus. You claim you hate when someone does this ####, yet you do it all of the time. It's Timpocrisies like this that bother people the most.

not the same as what you did, but here's a hint: when I start comparing you to my wife, there's a bit of sarcasm involved. As there is here.

It's exactly the same thing! You took what he said and turned the dial to 11 on it. The fact that you can't see that is funny. Not ha ha funny. More like odd funny.

the difference is he says it all the time. You were responding to one comment. I was responding to a large group of comments, of which this is the latest.

It's still the same thing. Tim, I am one of the guys who doesn't have a problem at all with you. I enjoy your posts. Might not agree with them all, but I enjoy them. But this is a case similar to the court case Pot v. Kettle.

 

[timschochet]

Since this story gained national attention, it seems like every piece of evidence that has been released is strengthening the officer being in the right.

Why in this case, as well as the TM one, is the original narrative misleading which strikes outrage and only when time goes by and more bits and pieces of information come out do we learn what actually happened isn't close to what was first portrayed.

If you were a staunch defender of the victim in either case, don't you feel a bit betrayed or duped when you find out what you were supporting turns out to be completely different? Youve been put in a tough spot to have to change your position as more facts come out. It's hard to blame anyone for grasping at alternative scenarios in order to avoid having to admit they were on the wrong side. Some never will. It's a shame.

in both cases, reasonable people allow facts to inform their opinions and then change them if necessary.One guy I have to give a lot of credit to in the Zimmerman case is Jon Mx. Even though we argued the whole way through (and I still don't agree with his conclusions) he started out believing GZ was guilty, learned more facts, and then changed his mind. I admire that he allowed facts to change his opinion.

As for me, right now I strongly believe that Wilson committed the act of murder by shooting at an unarmed man from a distance of 30 feet. If I learn new facts, such as that the distance was actually 5 or 10 feet, then I'm going to change my mind once again (because from a short distance apart it's plausible that Wilson could have reasonably considered any sudden movement by Brown to be a threat.)

Tim. I think part of the reason people give you a hard time is you flip-flop on your positions so often. Jon was very heavy one way and then changed his positon once. You tend to sway in the wind. Unless you enjoy the attention of people mocking you (hell, it can be entertaining in a way), you may want to just sit on the fence until something conclusive comes down.

I really don't care if people give me a hard time, especially over changing my mind. I am who I am.

 

[timschochet]

It is amazing how cut and dry these stories start out to be where the white guy is clearly in the wrong and as the facts slowly come out perhaps there was justification to the act after all.

White people are so victimized in this country!

Jesus. You claim you hate when someone does this ####, yet you do it all of the time. It's Timpocrisies like this that bother people the most.

not the same as what you did, but here's a hint: when I start comparing you to my wife, there's a bit of sarcasm involved. As there is here.

It's exactly the same thing! You took what he said and turned the dial to 11 on it. The fact that you can't see that is funny. Not ha ha funny. More like odd funny.

the difference is he says it all the time. You were responding to one comment. I was responding to a large group of comments, of which this is the latest.

It's still the same thing. Tim, I am one of the guys who doesn't have a problem at all with you. I enjoy your posts. Might not agree with them all, but I enjoy them. But this is a case similar to the court case Pot v. Kettle.

You're right. My apologies.

 

[rct]

What do I do all the time? Can I see a link to all these? Should be easy since it is all the time. I thought I made a simple statement which is true.

In every situation that is racially charged, you defend the white guy. In every situation in which the police actions are questions, you defend the police. That is my impression. I'm not going to waste time gathering links. If you can come up with examples to the contrary, I will retract the statement.

That is also my impression, although I could be wrong.

 

[Limp Ditka]

. I am who I am.

are you sure? I could see your stance on this changing.

 

[timschochet]

. I am who I am.

are you sure? I could see your stance on this changing.

well who I am is not who I was, nor is it who I will be.

 

[matttyl]

If I didn't have a gun at my disposal, I'm sure me and a good-sized buddy, armed and trained with Tazers and Pepper Spray, could deal with this without anyone dying.

If I have a gun in my hand, and not otherwise trained to deal with this situation . . . there is a good chance I'm shooting somebody.

I guess therein lies the rub.

My only issue is that if you're going to fire that many shots, why not send a few at his legs before going to the torso?

With people all around the area due to the commotion, a shot fired at his legs that misses will ricochet off the concrete/asphalt and could strike an innocent bystander. If you're shooting at an oncoming threat, you aim center mass.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

1:24 the cops get out of their unit

1:40 first shot fired

1:43 last shot fired.

During the majority of those first 16 seconds, before a shot was fired, the guy was armed, acting irrationally and moving towards the police when told not too.

16 ### ####ed seconds.

You do better. I'd love to see it.

If I didn't have a gun at my disposal, I'm sure me and a good-sized buddy, armed and trained with Tazers and Pepper Spray, could deal with this without anyone dying.

If I have a gun in my hand, and not otherwise trained to deal with this situation . . . there is a good chance I'm shooting somebody.

I guess therein lies the rub.

My only issue is that if you're going to fire that many shots, why not send a few at his legs before going to the torso?

Legs? Everyone knows you aim for the big toe when you have a knife-wielding crazy person coming towards you. Take out a big toe, he goes down and everybody goes home safe.

 

[matttyl]

In every situation that is racially charged, you defend the white guy. In every situation in which the police actions are questions, you defend the police. That is my impression. I'm not going to waste time gathering links. If you can come up with examples to the contrary, I will retract the statement.

What's "racially charged"? The shooting, or the aftermath?

 

[Jim11]

. I am who I am.

are you sure? I could see your stance on this changing.

well who I am is not who I was, nor is it who I will be.

Profound.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

If I didn't have a gun at my disposal, I'm sure me and a good-sized buddy, armed and trained with Tazers and Pepper Spray, could deal with this without anyone dying.

If I have a gun in my hand, and not otherwise trained to deal with this situation . . . there is a good chance I'm shooting somebody.

I guess therein lies the rub.

My only issue is that if you're going to fire that many shots, why not send a few at his legs before going to the torso?

With people all around the area due to the commotion, a shot fired at his legs that misses will ricochet off the concrete/asphalt and could strike an innocent bystander. If you're shooting at an oncoming threat, you aim center mass.

Makes sense. I never knew that was their SOP.

Thanks!

 

[kentric]

The County Prosecutor has had a number (like 4-5) of family members who are or have been in the Police Dept and is viewed as being supportive of the Police. Seems some aren't comfortable with his being unbiased and want him out. He says he will look at this objectively and do his best to prosecute the case.

In my mind, he's got to be replaced. Not that he may not go about it objectively, but if he loses the case there will be tons of questions raised.

 

[Doug B]

Makes sense. I never knew that was their SOP.
Thanks!

The movie Lethal Weapon muddied this up for a lot of civilians. On their first assignment as partners, Riggs guns down a bad guy, prompting Murtaugh to suggest out loud that he might have just shot the perp in the leg.

 

[Doug B]

The County Prosecutor has had a number (like 4-5) of family members who are or have been in the Police Dept and is viewed as being supportive of the Police.

Not doubting you, but this should be sourced for the house.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Makes sense. I never knew that was their SOP.
Thanks!

The movie Lethal Weapon muddied this up for a lot of civilians. On their first assignment as partners, Riggs guns down a bad guy, prompting Murtaugh to suggest out loud that he might have just shot the perp in the leg.

I also hear people say things like "Why don't they just shoot the guy in the arm or leg instead of trying to kill them?" Movies have lied to people. A gunshot wound, no matter where, can be deadly. There are major arteries in both the arms and legs, that if hit, will kill you within seconds. There is no such thing as shooting someone in a non-lethal spot.

 

[sublimeone]

Does that sound like a trustworthy police force to you?

Sure it does, but again I'm not going to lump each and every one of them in with having been partial to those practices. Enron was a crafty place - were all of it's employees horrible people, too?

No, but there's a big financial reporting problem at a place I'm investigating, and there are two accountants involved, and one of them used to work at Enron... guess which one I first think might be the problem?

And that's fair, and honestly exactly my point. You're using knowledge of prior infractions of the law against that accountant. I'm doing the same against Brown - cause I've seen it with my own eyes, which carries much more weight in my eyes than having a "connection" to a group of folks who've had infractions.

And I'm saying that what Brown did in that convenience store does absolutely nothing to convince me that he'd get into a charging match with a police officer pointing a gun at him. I get where you're coming from with me. I just don't agree with you. I see a massive gap between a person who does that in a convenience store and the person you're describing on the street. It's virtually irrelevant, except to give a reason why Brown might have been agitated or belligerent/aggressive with the officer (because he'd committed a crime just before.)

If he'd beaten the hell out of the convenience store clerk? On your side. If he'd punched the guy even once instead of pushing him out of the way, maybe I'm more convinced it's the same type of guy. As it is, I am not.

 

[matttyl]

Makes sense. I never knew that was their SOP.
Thanks!

The movie Lethal Weapon muddied this up for a lot of civilians. On their first assignment as partners, Riggs guns down a bad guy, prompting Murtaugh to suggest out loud that he might have just shot the perp in the leg.

Well when he shot a guy in the leg, the guy fell back into a pool and drowned. That didn't work either.

 

[matttyl]

Makes sense. I never knew that was their SOP.
Thanks!

The movie Lethal Weapon muddied this up for a lot of civilians. On their first assignment as partners, Riggs guns down a bad guy, prompting Murtaugh to suggest out loud that he might have just shot the perp in the leg.

I also hear people say things like "Why don't they just shoot the guy in the arm or leg instead of trying to kill them?" Movies have lied to people. A gunshot wound, no matter where, can be deadly. There are major arteries in both the arms and legs, that if hit, will kill you within seconds. There is no such thing as shooting someone in a non-lethal spot.

That very possibly is EXACTLY what happened here with Wilson/Brown.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

I'm usually pro cop and freely admit it...If an officer was on his own I'd probably say he handled it how he should, but with two officers there, yes I believe this could have been handled differently....One officer could have said to the other, I'm going to taze him..if it doesn't work shoot him.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

The injury to Wilson's face makes it more likely, at least to me, that he committed a crime here.

My likely scenario: Wilson stops Brown and Johnson. A scuffle occurs. Brown hits Wilson in the face, causing the injury. The two kids take off running. Wilson fires his gun. The first shot either misses or wings Brown in the arm. Brown turns around, and either raises his arms in surrender or does not, just turns around. (Not sure what happened to Johnson at this point.)

And here is where the crime is committed by Wilson: in fear or rage or both, Wilson does not ask Brown to surrender. He does not instruct Brown to lie down on the ground. Instead, he fires his remaining bullets at Wilson. And that's murder.

There's probably no way to prove it, but that's what I think probably happened.

Agree

 

[Sand]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

1:24 the cops get out of their unit

1:40 first shot fired

1:43 last shot fired.

During the majority of those first 16 seconds, before a shot was fired, the guy was armed, acting irrationally and moving towards the police when told not too.

16 ### ####ed seconds.

You do better. I'd love to see it.

If I didn't have a gun at my disposal, I'm sure me and a good-sized buddy, armed and trained with Tazers and Pepper Spray, could deal with this without anyone dying.

If I have a gun in my hand, and not otherwise trained to deal with this situation . . . there is a good chance I'm shooting somebody.

I guess therein lies the rub.

My only issue is that if you're going to fire that many shots, why not send a few at his legs before going to the torso?

One documented case had a guy take a fatal shot to a chest artery and still managed to walk around and shoot 5 FBI agents before going down. If that can happen then what do you think the possibilities are for a guy with a leg wound?

 

[[icon]]

One documented case had a guy take a fatal shot to a chest artery and still managed to walk around and shoot 5 FBI agents before going down. If that can happen then what do you think the possibilities are for a guy with a leg wound?

The problem with this stuff is we have people who have watched too many movies forming concrete and unwavering opinions despite actually having zero real knowledge on this sort of stuff.

 

[lod01]

It is amazing how cut and dry these stories start out to be where the white guy is clearly in the wrong and as the facts slowly come out perhaps there was justification to the act after all.

White people are so victimized in this country!

Was not even close to the point. if you are going to get a hair up your ### and start riots and looting, you ought to know that there was actually a major injustice that occurred and not some trumped up story devoid of any facts spun up by the media to stir up outrage and violence. The biggest outrage of these stories, such as this and Zimmerman, should be against all the wildass speculation which occurred in the media by the white guilt/race-baiting talking heads. The stories which came up in the first few days were completely off of what the truth was.

Professional looters would beg to differ.

It is amazing how cut and dry these stories start out to be where the white guy is clearly in the wrong and as the facts slowly come out perhaps there was justification to the act after all.

White people are so victimized in this country!

Jesus. You claim you hate when someone does this ####, yet you do it all of the time. It's Timpocrisies like this that bother people the most.

No kidding. Tim has the biggest hissy fit of FoxNews reports anything wrong, especially if it concerns his dear leader, out of some unfounded fear that rednecks will resort to violence. But Tim has no problem when His media gets stories completely wrong which leads to actual riots and violence. I can not see how anyone can take complete opposite positions with a straight face.

Tim must see a lot of the hated white people on cnn looting and rioting often it seems....

Well he had never heard of a man unarmed man shot and killed. Then I set him straight on that one.

 

[lod01]

Remember when all those white people rioted & looted after OJ got off?

That's gold Jerry.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

But the police didn't have a chance to see any of that. They showed up to a call with a report of a weapon. Someone was concerned enough to call the police. And then they saw the subject of the call with a weapon advancing toward them.

There's quite a bit of "what they knew" going on here. And the troubling fact that they lied about the details.

You are out of your damn mind. If there is no outrage when there is clear video evidence that a police officer unnecessarily shot and killed a man, there will be no outrage when there is no video evidence and conflicting eyewitness testimony and police who will lie to excuse their actions.

To me i see a man who took sodas knowing the store would call the cops...he placed them on the side walk and waited for the cops to show up...he wanted to be shot to death....this is a clear case of suicide by police

 

[lod01]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I'm not the least bit fazed by it. As a matter of fact, not only did I sleep well after watching it, I'll guaranteed you it will all be forgotten in a month or so. It will be like he never existed in the first place.

 

[Peak]

Where is Dexter when you need him. It would seem that a blood-splatter expert could shed some like on Brown's positioning through the fight. If he was shot staying in one location (hand up in the air and being shot 5-6 times), then the blood should be within a set area. If he starting running toward Wilson, I would think there would be some kind of blood trail.

Last I saw, he was dressing up as a Lumbjack in Alaska. Still really disappointed with that whole ending.....

 

[lod01]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

1:24 the cops get out of their unit

1:40 first shot fired

1:43 last shot fired.

During the majority of those first 16 seconds, before a shot was fired, the guy was armed, acting irrationally and moving towards the police when told not too.

16 ### ####ed seconds.

You do better. I'd love to see it.

He'd probably walk up and try to hug the guy, then look down and see the guy's knife gutting him like a fish.

 

[TheWalkmen]

Seems like cops are always in a no-win situation. Some people seem to expect these guys to wait until they're 1 second from dying before using deadly force, as if they can predict the next moves of someone a short distance away with a knife. I would never approach an officer with a knife, and I would never punch an officer in the face or have a scuffle with one. Add in the fact that these situations are in rough neighborhoods and these acts by the police are completely justified. BTW I live in the city of St. Louis.

 

[lod01]

And I'm saying that what Brown did in that convenience store does absolutely nothing to convince me that he'd get into a charging match with a police officer pointing a gun at him. I get where you're coming from with me. I just don't agree with you. I see a massive gap between a person who does that in a convenience store and the person you're describing on the street. It's virtually irrelevant, except to give a reason why Brown might have been agitated or belligerent/aggressive with the officer (because he'd committed a crime just before.)


If he'd beaten the hell out of the convenience store clerk? On your side. If he'd punched the guy even once instead of pushing him out of the way, maybe I'm more convinced it's the same type of guy. As it is, I am not.

Pretty sure 6'4" 290 didn't have to beat the #### out of a 5' nothing wimpy store clerk. Simply pushing him aside was all that was needed. A cop with a gun, stopping you for what you think may be the incident you were just involved in? That one will require a lot more in order to get away.

It would not surprise me if Brown had done that numerous times in that store. The guy never called 911, a customer did. They also didn't want to give up the video of the incident. I suspects Brown knew it didn't take much to get that store clerk to back down and the clerk knew putting up a bigger fight meant a serious beat down.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

One documented case had a guy take a fatal shot to a chest artery and still managed to walk around and shoot 5 FBI agents before going down. If that can happen then what do you think the possibilities are for a guy with a leg wound?

The problem with this stuff is we have people who have watched too many movies forming concrete and unwavering opinions despite actually having zero real knowledge on this sort of stuff.

FWIW the movies werent a factor in what I said. I'm thinking professional shooters taking 5-10 shots could hit at least one leg. As a kid we used to throw bottles up in the air and shoot them...i never hit them all but didnt have professional training either and I know a leg is usually bigger than a bottle. I should have factored in the misses and/or asked what the SOP was for such a situation.