Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (2 Viewers)

[financewonk]

The injury to Wilson's face makes it more likely, at least to me, that he committed a crime here.

My likely scenario: Wilson stops Brown and Johnson. A scuffle occurs. Brown hits Wilson in the face, causing the injury. The two kids take off running. Wilson fires his gun. The first shot either misses or wings Brown in the arm. Brown turns around, and either raises his arms in surrender or does not, just turns around. (Not sure what happened to Johnson at this point.)

And here is where the crime is committed by Wilson: in fear or rage or both, Wilson does not ask Brown to surrender. He does not instruct Brown to lie down on the ground. Instead, he fires his remaining bullets at Wilson. And that's murder.

There's probably no way to prove it, but that's what I think probably happened.

Agree

Perhaps the angry 6'4 300 lb man disregarded Wilson's orders to surrender, made threatening statements, and continued to advance towards the officer. Considering Brown's behavior prior to being shot, the above seems more likely to be true than the version that Wilson, who has no history of misconduct, murdered Brown.

 

[lod01]

I'm usually pro cop and freely admit it...If an officer was on his own I'd probably say he handled it how he should, but with two officers there, yes I believe this could have been handled differently....One officer could have said to the other, I'm going to taze him..if it doesn't work shoot him.

You taze, I'll cover you. I'm not good with a taser and better you than me.

 

[matttyl]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

 

[[icon]]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

I'm not sure why ANY of that is relevant to THIS Case.... the guy is a witness to an execution.

What motivation would he possibly have to lie?

 

[timschochet]

The injury to Wilson's face makes it more likely, at least to me, that he committed a crime here.

My likely scenario: Wilson stops Brown and Johnson. A scuffle occurs. Brown hits Wilson in the face, causing the injury. The two kids take off running. Wilson fires his gun. The first shot either misses or wings Brown in the arm. Brown turns around, and either raises his arms in surrender or does not, just turns around. (Not sure what happened to Johnson at this point.)

And here is where the crime is committed by Wilson: in fear or rage or both, Wilson does not ask Brown to surrender. He does not instruct Brown to lie down on the ground. Instead, he fires his remaining bullets at Wilson. And that's murder.

There's probably no way to prove it, but that's what I think probably happened.

Agree

Perhaps the angry 6'4 300 lb man disregarded Wilson's orders to surrender, made threatening statements, and continued to advance towards the officer. Considering Brown's behavior prior to being shot, the above seems more likely to be true than the version that Wilson, who has no history of misconduct, murdered Brown.

My problem with this idea is the distance involved. 30 feet, according to 3 witnesses- one of whom (Johnson) can be discounted. If the 30 feet can be disproved; if it's more like 10-15 feet or less, then it seems much more plausible.

 

[Peak]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

I'm not sure why ANY of that is relevant to THIS Case.... the guy is a witness to an execution.

What motivation would he possibly have to lie?

Doesn't this read into the reliability of the witness? I would expect they would do the same with any witness that stepped forward on behalf of the officer.

 

[Fennis]

.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

thanks for solving that mystery,

 

[TheIronSheik]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

I'm not sure why ANY of that is relevant to THIS Case.... the guy is a witness to an execution.

What motivation would he possibly have to lie?

People keep bringing up past police incidents. Why is the past only relevant to what the cops have done?

 

[timschochet]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

From the moment I learned that Johnson had been involved in a robbery, I discounted everything he had to say.

BUT- there are two other witnesses who also have given their names and who confirm Johnson's essential story. (Now, when I learned that the coroner stated that Brown had been shot in the front, rather than from behind, I wanted to discount them too, until Henry Ford pointed out to me ways that they could reasonably be mistaken on this point.) While on the other hand, there have been NO wittnesses willing to come forward and state that they saw Brown charging Wilson. (There is a radio caller who claimed to be a friend of Wilson's wife, but never claimed to be an eyewitness, there are unnamed "sources" who have repeated the charging story, and there is a gossip columnist who claims there are 12 other witnesses, none of whom she's spoken to.)

Those of you who claim to believe Wilson's story- there IS NO STORY. Wilson has not given a statement. No doubt he filed a police report, but we don't have that either, nor do we have any inkling what it says. All we have is third hand conjecture, and that is apparently what you've chosen to believe over those who claim to be eyewitnesses, who have been fairly consistent.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

Tobias, you were upset that the Ferguson PD released the video of the mini-mart robbery because: (a) the Ferguson PD did not also release evidence related to Brown being shot; and (b) the mini-mart footage unfairly smeared Brown with information that was not overly relevant to Brown being shot. (Please feel free to correct me if I mischaracterized your position.)

How do you feel about the Ferguson PD's lastest release? (see below)

(To be fair, one source says the video was released by the "Freguson PD" while the other source says that the video was released by "the city of Ferguson".)

Freguson PD releases video of Darren WilsonOfficer Darren Wilson received an award for outstanding police work in February. Police Chief Tom Jackson told the city council he was able to subdue a man that was about to sell a large quantity of marijuana.

* Absurd headline misspelling of Ferguson is on the St. Louis Dispatch, not me.

Ferguson officials show Wilson video

The city of Ferguson has released video of police officer Darren Wilson receiving an award in February, the first confirmed footage of the man who shot and killed unarmed African-American 18-year-old Michael Brown.

The video from a Feb. 11 city council meeting shows Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson introducing “officer Darren Wilson,” who receives applause and walks toward the front of the room, according to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.
In the video, Jackson says the commendation is “in recognition of outstanding police work while investigating a suspicious vehicle call” in which Wilson acted alone. The police chief goes on to explain that the officer wrestled with a suspect and gained control of his car keys while waiting for backup. Jackson said Wilson later found out the individual was breaking down marijuana for sale.

“Great job,” Jackson concluded, shaking hands with Wilson and handing him the award while those in the council meeting applaud. Wilson is then shown returning to the back of the room, apparently smiling.

Little is known about Wilson, who has kept an extremely low profile since the Aug. 9 incident. He has not been charged or arrested and was put on paid administrative leave. The Ferguson Police Department did not release his name until six days after the shooting and then provided little information other than that he has served six years in the department and has not faced disciplinary action. He has neither released a statement nor spoken publicly, and has no known active social media accounts.

It has since been learned that Wilson is 28 years old and was born in Texas. The Associated Press has reported that he has Missouri hunting and fishing licenses, and that he owns a home in Crestwood, a suburb less than 20 miles southwest of Ferguson.

The St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported that Wilson bought the home in October 2013 with his girlfriend, a fellow police officer named Barbara Spradling.

 

[matttyl]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

I'm not sure why ANY of that is relevant to THIS Case.... the guy is a witness to an execution.

What motivation would he possibly have to lie?

People keep bringing up past police incidents. Why is the past only relevant to what the cops have done?

Exactly! If the cop had an incident report in his 6 years on the force people would be throwing him under the bus even more. But when either (actually both) of the kids have criminal histories, it doesn't seem to matter.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

From the moment I learned that Johnson had been involved in a robbery, I discounted everything he had to say.

Not really. You were, for quite awhile, clinging to Johnson's thirty foot estimate as fact.

 

[timschochet]

From the moment I learned that Johnson had been involved in a robbery, I discounted everything he had to say.

Not really. You were, for quite awhile, clinging to Johnson's thirty foot estimate as fact.

No- the other two witnesses made the same estimate. And I don't know if it's fact or not. I have consistently pointed out that I predicated my guesswork in this case to the 30 feet distance, and if its shorter, that changes all my thinking.

 

[[icon]]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

I'm not sure why ANY of that is relevant to THIS Case.... the guy is a witness to an execution.

What motivation would he possibly have to lie?

People keep bringing up past police incidents. Why is the past only relevant to what the cops have done?

Exactly! If the cop had an incident report in his 6 years on the force people would be throwing him under the bus even more. But when either (actually both) of the kids have criminal histories, it doesn't seem to matter.

I was being sarcastic guys... mocking the mindset of some of the guys in here.

 

[Fennis]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

I'm not sure why ANY of that is relevant to THIS Case.... the guy is a witness to an execution.

What motivation would he possibly have to lie?

People keep bringing up past police incidents. Why is the past only relevant to what the cops have done?

Exactly! If the cop had an incident report in his 6 years on the force people would be throwing him under the bus even more. But when either (actually both) of the kids have criminal histories, it doesn't seem to matter.

I was being sarcastic guys... mocking the mindset of some of the guys in here.

sounds like your plan backfired

 

[TheIronSheik]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

I'm not sure why ANY of that is relevant to THIS Case.... the guy is a witness to an execution.

What motivation would he possibly have to lie?

People keep bringing up past police incidents. Why is the past only relevant to what the cops have done?

Exactly! If the cop had an incident report in his 6 years on the force people would be throwing him under the bus even more. But when either (actually both) of the kids have criminal histories, it doesn't seem to matter.

I was being sarcastic guys... mocking the mindset of some of the guys in here.

I know you were, GB. Either that or you completely changed stances in a matter of minutes.

 

[Fennis]

Tobias, you were upset that the Ferguson PD released the video of the mini-mart robbery because: (a) the Ferguson PD did not also release evidence related to Brown being shot; and (b) the mini-mart footage unfairly smeared Brown with information that was not overly relevant to Brown being shot. (Please feel free to correct me if I mischaracterized your position.)

How do you feel about the Ferguson PD's lastest release? (see below)

(To be fair, one source says the video was released by the "Freguson PD" while the other source says that the video was released by "the city of Ferguson".)

Freguson PD releases video of Darren WilsonOfficer Darren Wilson received an award for outstanding police work in February. Police Chief Tom Jackson told the city council he was able to subdue a man that was about to sell a large quantity of marijuana.

* Absurd headline misspelling of Ferguson is on the St. Louis Dispatch, not me.

Ferguson officials show Wilson video

The city of Ferguson has released video of police officer Darren Wilson receiving an award in February, the first confirmed footage of the man who shot and killed unarmed African-American 18-year-old Michael Brown.

The video from a Feb. 11 city council meeting shows Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson introducing “officer Darren Wilson,” who receives applause and walks toward the front of the room, according to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.
In the video, Jackson says the commendation is “in recognition of outstanding police work while investigating a suspicious vehicle call” in which Wilson acted alone. The police chief goes on to explain that the officer wrestled with a suspect and gained control of his car keys while waiting for backup. Jackson said Wilson later found out the individual was breaking down marijuana for sale.

“Great job,” Jackson concluded, shaking hands with Wilson and handing him the award while those in the council meeting applaud. Wilson is then shown returning to the back of the room, apparently smiling.

Little is known about Wilson, who has kept an extremely low profile since the Aug. 9 incident. He has not been charged or arrested and was put on paid administrative leave. The Ferguson Police Department did not release his name until six days after the shooting and then provided little information other than that he has served six years in the department and has not faced disciplinary action. He has neither released a statement nor spoken publicly, and has no known active social media accounts.

It has since been learned that Wilson is 28 years old and was born in Texas. The Associated Press has reported that he has Missouri hunting and fishing licenses, and that he owns a home in Crestwood, a suburb less than 20 miles southwest of Ferguson.

The St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported that Wilson bought the home in October 2013 with his girlfriend, a fellow police officer named Barbara Spradling.

Take it to PMs

 

[jon_mx]

It is amazing how cut and dry these stories start out to be where the white guy is clearly in the wrong and as the facts slowly come out perhaps there was justification to the act after all.

White people are so victimized in this country!

Jesus. You claim you hate when someone does this ####, yet you do it all of the time. It's Timpocrisies like this that bother people the most.

not the same as what you did, but here's a hint: when I start comparing you to my wife, there's a bit of sarcasm involved. As there is here.

It's exactly the same thing! You took what he said and turned the dial to 11 on it. The fact that you can't see that is funny. Not ha ha funny. More like odd funny.

the difference is he says it all the time. You were responding to one comment. I was responding to a large group of comments, of which this is the latest.

What do I do all the time? Can I see a link to all these? Should be easy since it is all the time. I thought I made a simple statement which is true.

In every situation that is racially charged, you defend the white guy. In every situation in which the police actions are questions, you defend the police. That is my impression. I'm not going to waste time gathering links. If you can come up with examples to the contrary, I will retract the statement.

Total bs. In the Zimmerman case, I started off leaning towards Martin until the facts came in and it was apparent that Martin was actually kicking Zimmerman's ### at the time of the shooting. Here I thought the kid was running away and shot in the back and thought the cop should be in jail. But the evidence is becoming clearer that is not the case. I am in a grey area right now and have no idea who is right. You are so full of shot in your ducking characterizations it is coming out your ears.

 

[timschochet]

It is amazing how cut and dry these stories start out to be where the white guy is clearly in the wrong and as the facts slowly come out perhaps there was justification to the act after all.

White people are so victimized in this country!

Jesus. You claim you hate when someone does this ####, yet you do it all of the time. It's Timpocrisies like this that bother people the most.

not the same as what you did, but here's a hint: when I start comparing you to my wife, there's a bit of sarcasm involved. As there is here.

It's exactly the same thing! You took what he said and turned the dial to 11 on it. The fact that you can't see that is funny. Not ha ha funny. More like odd funny.

the difference is he says it all the time. You were responding to one comment. I was responding to a large group of comments, of which this is the latest.

What do I do all the time? Can I see a link to all these? Should be easy since it is all the time. I thought I made a simple statement which is true.

In every situation that is racially charged, you defend the white guy. In every situation in which the police actions are questions, you defend the police. That is my impression. I'm not going to waste time gathering links. If you can come up with examples to the contrary, I will retract the statement.

Total bs. In the Zimmerman case, I started off leaning towards Martin until the facts came in and it was apparent that Martin was actually kicking Zimmerman's ### at the time of the shooting. Here I thought the kids was running away and shot in the back and thought the cop should be in jail. But the evidence is becoming clearer that is not the case. I am in a grey area right now and have no idea who is right. You are so full of shot in your ducking characterizations it is coming out your ears.

I gave you credit in this very thread on the Zimmerman case. However, that was not a police action. And even when you thought Zimmerman was guilty, you strongly denied any racial element. Also you quickly changed your mind when the possibilities appeared that GZ might be innocent, and you immediately assumed those possibilities to be facts, such as the bolded.

 

[lod01]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

I'm not sure why ANY of that is relevant to THIS Case.... the guy is a witness to an execution.

What motivation would he possibly have to lie?

People keep bringing up past police incidents. Why is the past only relevant to what the cops have done?

Exactly! If the cop had an incident report in his 6 years on the force people would be throwing him under the bus even more. But when either (actually both) of the kids have criminal histories, it doesn't seem to matter.

I was being sarcastic guys... mocking the mindset of some of the guys in here.

I know you were, GB. Either that or you completely changed stances in a matter of minutes.

This is why I said that Johnson will only help Wilson if there was a trial. He will be shown to be a liar and unable to keep his lies straight. The prosecution can't even use this clown with that new info although I hope the do.

 

[Sand]

One documented case had a guy take a fatal shot to a chest artery and still managed to walk around and shoot 5 FBI agents before going down. If that can happen then what do you think the possibilities are for a guy with a leg wound?

The problem with this stuff is we have people who have watched too many movies forming concrete and unwavering opinions despite actually having zero real knowledge on this sort of stuff.

Reference: Head of the oldest independent officer training school (in Chicago). On the radio this morning. Talked about this exact thing and this exact occurrence. Go here. Interview with Jim Gennon. Start at 10:00 and listen for a minute or so.

Cold hard fact - people can do things in times of stress that don't seem possible.

 

[jon_mx]

It is amazing how cut and dry these stories start out to be where the white guy is clearly in the wrong and as the facts slowly come out perhaps there was justification to the act after all.

White people are so victimized in this country!

Jesus. You claim you hate when someone does this ####, yet you do it all of the time. It's Timpocrisies like this that bother people the most.

not the same as what you did, but here's a hint: when I start comparing you to my wife, there's a bit of sarcasm involved. As there is here.

It's exactly the same thing! You took what he said and turned the dial to 11 on it. The fact that you can't see that is funny. Not ha ha funny. More like odd funny.

the difference is he says it all the time. You were responding to one comment. I was responding to a large group of comments, of which this is the latest.

What do I do all the time? Can I see a link to all these? Should be easy since it is all the time. I thought I made a simple statement which is true.

In every situation that is racially charged, you defend the white guy. In every situation in which the police actions are questions, you defend the police. That is my impression. I'm not going to waste time gathering links. If you can come up with examples to the contrary, I will retract the statement.

Total bs. In the Zimmerman case, I started off leaning towards Martin until the facts came in and it was apparent that Martin was actually kicking Zimmerman's ### at the time of the shooting. Here I thought the kids was running away and shot in the back and thought the cop should be in jail. But the evidence is becoming clearer that is not the case. I am in a grey area right now and have no idea who is right. You are so full of shot in your ducking characterizations it is coming out your ears.

I gave you credit in this very thread on the Zimmerman case. However, that was not a police action. And even when you thought Zimmerman was guilty, you strongly denied any racial element. Also you quickly changed your mind when the possibilities appeared that GZ might be innocent, and you immediately assumed those possibilities to be facts, such as the bolded.

And by assume you mean I saw the facts of Zimmerman's cuts in his head and bloody nose along with Martin's bruised knuckles and an eye-witness who saw Martin throwing punches and came to the only reasonable conclusion of the known facts. That was a huge assumption.

 

[kentric]

The County Prosecutor has had a number (like 4-5) of family members who are or have been in the Police Dept and is viewed as being supportive of the Police.

Not doubting you, but this should be sourced for the house.

My bad - just too damn lazy.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-prosecutor-mcculloch/

 

[Widbil83]

Waiting for CNN to start wearing there "Justice for Mike Brown" shirts.

 

[tom22406]

Don Lemon having a hard time here

http://gawker.com/watch-don-lemons-ferguson-talib-kweli-interview-go-horr-1625125200?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

 

[lod01]

Don Lemon having a hard time here

http://gawker.com/watch-don-lemons-ferguson-talib-kweli-interview-go-horr-1625125200?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Kweli: You have no respect for who I am.

Correct response: Yeah, you are right. You can't even put a hat on straight, now GTFO of here.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

The injury to Wilson's face makes it more likely, at least to me, that he committed a crime here.

My likely scenario: Wilson stops Brown and Johnson. A scuffle occurs. Brown hits Wilson in the face, causing the injury. The two kids take off running. Wilson fires his gun. The first shot either misses or wings Brown in the arm. Brown turns around, and either raises his arms in surrender or does not, just turns around. (Not sure what happened to Johnson at this point.)

And here is where the crime is committed by Wilson: in fear or rage or both, Wilson does not ask Brown to surrender. He does not instruct Brown to lie down on the ground. Instead, he fires his remaining bullets at Wilson. And that's murder.

There's probably no way to prove it, but that's what I think probably happened.

Agree

Perhaps the angry 6'4 300 lb man disregarded Wilson's orders to surrender, made threatening statements, and continued to advance towards the officer. Considering Brown's behavior prior to being shot, the above seems more likely to be true than the version that Wilson, who has no history of misconduct, murdered Brown.

Perhaps

 

[kentric]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

I'm not sure why ANY of that is relevant to THIS Case.... the guy is a witness to an execution.

What motivation would he possibly have to lie?

(in case Christo hasn't posted)

 

[Greggity]

Waiting for CNN to start wearing there "Justice for Mike Brown" shirts.

Obama could have a son that looked like Mike Brown! CNN is all over this! lol

 

[GrandpaRox]

That's fine. We just have a disagreement on that point. Similar to Zimmerman, right now if I were on a jury, based on the evidence we have , I would have a hard time convicting Wilson. Because while I don't believe it's probable that Brown charged him, it's possible/ enough for reasonable doubt. But it's not what I think happened.

not me....you shoot an unarmed man from 30 feet away you`re toast (only a cop could even attempt to get away with this)

Ever heard of the 21 foot rule, I didn't think so. Not that I believe that he was 30 feet away, it is difficult to hit a moving target at 30 feet, by the way.

 

[GrandpaRox]

It is amazing to me that anyone can at this point fault the cop. With everything that is out there there is no doubt in my mind that it was totally justified. Lots of crow going to be eaten by you all.

i am guessing that you are a conservative with a dislike for protests against the police, especially when racial issues are at play, and a strong desire to defend the police in such situations. Because it's simply not possible that any objective person could not have any doubts as this point, one way or the other.

We were right about Trayvon Martin from the jump and this thug is 10 times worse than Trayvon.He won't be missed, crime rate will probably drop a bit.

actually I don't think you were right about Trayvon Martin.

Of course your white guilt won't let you. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Henry Ford]

And I'm saying that what Brown did in that convenience store does absolutely nothing to convince me that he'd get into a charging match with a police officer pointing a gun at him. I get where you're coming from with me. I just don't agree with you. I see a massive gap between a person who does that in a convenience store and the person you're describing on the street. It's virtually irrelevant, except to give a reason why Brown might have been agitated or belligerent/aggressive with the officer (because he'd committed a crime just before.)


If he'd beaten the hell out of the convenience store clerk? On your side. If he'd punched the guy even once instead of pushing him out of the way, maybe I'm more convinced it's the same type of guy. As it is, I am not.

Pretty sure 6'4" 290 didn't have to beat the #### out of a 5' nothing wimpy store clerk. Simply pushing him aside was all that was needed. A cop with a gun, stopping you for what you think may be the incident you were just involved in? That one will require a lot more in order to get away.

It would not surprise me if Brown had done that numerous times in that store. The guy never called 911, a customer did. They also didn't want to give up the video of the incident. I suspects Brown knew it didn't take much to get that store clerk to back down and the clerk knew putting up a bigger fight meant a serious beat down.

Or, the clerk and Brown had been involved with the takedown of the Giovanni crime family poker game together years before - they'd been hiding the money and just waiting, with the clerk keeping it in Swisher Sweets boxes. Brown had finally had enough and wanted some of it - and the clerk knew not to call the police, lest they find the rest of it.

 

[kentric]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

From the moment I learned that Johnson had been involved in a robbery, I discounted everything he had to say.

BUT- there are two other witnesses who also have given their names and who confirm Johnson's essential story. (Now, when I learned that the coroner stated that Brown had been shot in the front, rather than from behind, I wanted to discount them too, until Henry Ford pointed out to me ways that they could reasonably be mistaken on this point.) While on the other hand, there have been NO wittnesses willing to come forward and state that they saw Brown charging Wilson. (There is a radio caller who claimed to be a friend of Wilson's wife, but never claimed to be an eyewitness, there are unnamed "sources" who have repeated the charging story, and there is a gossip columnist who claims there are 12 other witnesses, none of whom she's spoken to.)

Those of you who claim to believe Wilson's story- there IS NO STORY. Wilson has not given a statement. No doubt he filed a police report, but we don't have that either, nor do we have any inkling what it says. All we have is third hand conjecture, and that is apparently what you've chosen to believe over those who claim to be eyewitnesses, who have been fairly consistent.

You are leaving out the video where a supposed eyewitness indicated that Brown charged Wilson. If this was not a doctoring of the video (which I wouldn't rule out), I think it warrants consideration as the video was made right after the event, the person describing the event saw it first-hand and his viewpoint is in contrast to the standard supposition in an area where there is distrust of the police. The other people who came forward with stories similar to Johnson did so after the story came out (at least that's when we became aware of it - not sure when they disclosed their position to the police) and their story is anti-police (which is standard for the charged environment of that area). Of course, one is a voice overheard on a video and one is a direct personal statement.

 

[Henry Ford]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

I'm not sure why ANY of that is relevant to THIS Case.... the guy is a witness to an execution.

What motivation would he possibly have to lie?

People keep bringing up past police incidents. Why is the past only relevant to what the cops have done?

It's not. Johnson has no credibility. The guy who livetweeted with pictures from his apartment, however, I am less dismissive of.

 

[TheIronSheik]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

I'm not sure why ANY of that is relevant to THIS Case.... the guy is a witness to an execution.

What motivation would he possibly have to lie?

People keep bringing up past police incidents. Why is the past only relevant to what the cops have done?

It's not. Johnson has no credibility. The guy who livetweeted with pictures from his apartment, however, I am less dismissive of.

I don't know what this means.

 

[lod01]

More reasons why I was hesitant to believe Dorian Johnson's story (he's already made false statements to the police)....

http://www.abc17news.com/news/key-witness-in-ferguson-wanted-in-jefferson-city/27624066

22 year-old Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown when he was shot, has a warrant out for his arrest in Jefferson City.

The warrant is for stealing and dates back to June 2011.

ABC 17 News looked into Johnson's past and found out he has also been charged with filing a false police report in the same year.

After cross referencing several records, ABC 17 News found the warrant, which is for Dorian Jordan Johnson, is actually the same person as Dorian Jarvis Johnson.

Johnson has told news organizations Brown was, "shot like and animal..."

You might remember, Johnson told reporters Brown was running away with his hands up.

A medical examiner's report was inconsistent with Johnson's story.

I'm not sure why ANY of that is relevant to THIS Case.... the guy is a witness to an execution.

What motivation would he possibly have to lie?

People keep bringing up past police incidents. Why is the past only relevant to what the cops have done?

It's not. Johnson has no credibility. The guy who livetweeted with pictures from his apartment, however, I am less dismissive of.

Johnson started out strong but since has pretty much gone flaccid. The apartment guy could have really made a name for himself had he recorded a video of the whole encounter from his apartment.

 

[GrandpaRox]

Newest witness Michael Brady on anderson cooper

'I see the officer get out of the car and immediately start shooting'

Michael Brady is stepping forward with a new account of Michael Brown's final moments. He was inside his apartment when he first heard Brown's altercation with Officer Darren WIlson, then he saw it out the window. Brady says he ran outside after the first shots were fired. He tells Anderson that's when the next round of shooting began.

Michael Brady is offering just one of a growing number of sometimes conflicting accounts of what happened in the moments before Michael Brown lost his life. Randi Kaye takes a closer look.

Yeah, that's what I'd do if I heard gunshots outside my place. I'd run right out there. And it only took 11 days for that dude to concoct that story...errrrr report what he saw.

And here we have a prime example. Jim11, who wants the cops to be exonerated, believes every witness on his "side" as completely honest, while every witness on the side of the protestors as dishonest. In this regard, Jim is no different from the protestors. Both sides have made up their minds long since.

Actually, the way I read it, this account in no way contradicts the officer's account (as I understand it). He's only stating what shots he heard, he's got no idea what shots struck Brown and which didn't. He's saying there was an "altercation", one loud enough to get his attention while in his apartment. That's what the cop's story is as well. Then some shots (no number given) were fired - we don't know if those struck Brown or not. We also don't know if those where the shots fired when there was a struggle for the gun (if there was one). Then the guy ran outside to see better (like Jim, I'm not buying that part, but whatever) when more shots were fired - and no one is disputing that many shots were fired during the entire situation. He didn't say anything about if Brown was heading toward Wilson or not when those final shots were fired, or if he had his hands up, or whatever.

we need to stop calling it "the officer's account". Wilson has not given an account. There are only unnamed sources and a woman who claims to be a friend of Wilson's wife who called a radio show. And this is the stuff being eaten up by some conservatives who can't tolerate the idea that the protesters might be right to protest.

The people are not protesting they are looting, stealing and destroying private property, just like most of America would expect people like that to do.

 

[[icon]]

Ever heard of the 21 foot rule, I didn't think so. Not that I believe that he was 30 feet away, it is difficult to hit a moving target at 30 feet, by the way.

Yep.

At 30', if your aim is off by a lousy 3 degrees, you'll miss your intended target by 2 FEET. Pistols have very short barrels and are notoriously inaccurate in the hands of all but the best shooters. Factor in adrenaline, motion, chaos.... good luck.

 

[lod01]

Ever heard of the 21 foot rule, I didn't think so. Not that I believe that he was 30 feet away, it is difficult to hit a moving target at 30 feet, by the way.

Yep.

At 30', if your aim is off by a lousy 3 degrees, you'll miss your intended target by 2 FEET. Pistols have very short barrels and are notoriously inaccurate in the hands of all but the best shooters. Factor in adrenaline, motion, chaos.... good luck.

Don't forget broken orbital socket. Try firing a gun with a fresh one of those.

Where the hell did all the Brown backers go? They got taken to school.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

Newest witness Michael Brady on anderson cooper

'I see the officer get out of the car and immediately start shooting'

Michael Brady is stepping forward with a new account of Michael Brown's final moments. He was inside his apartment when he first heard Brown's altercation with Officer Darren WIlson, then he saw it out the window. Brady says he ran outside after the first shots were fired. He tells Anderson that's when the next round of shooting began.

Michael Brady is offering just one of a growing number of sometimes conflicting accounts of what happened in the moments before Michael Brown lost his life. Randi Kaye takes a closer look.

Yeah, that's what I'd do if I heard gunshots outside my place. I'd run right out there. And it only took 11 days for that dude to concoct that story...errrrr report what he saw.

And here we have a prime example. Jim11, who wants the cops to be exonerated, believes every witness on his "side" as completely honest, while every witness on the side of the protestors as dishonest. In this regard, Jim is no different from the protestors. Both sides have made up their minds long since.

Actually, the way I read it, this account in no way contradicts the officer's account (as I understand it). He's only stating what shots he heard, he's got no idea what shots struck Brown and which didn't. He's saying there was an "altercation", one loud enough to get his attention while in his apartment. That's what the cop's story is as well. Then some shots (no number given) were fired - we don't know if those struck Brown or not. We also don't know if those where the shots fired when there was a struggle for the gun (if there was one). Then the guy ran outside to see better (like Jim, I'm not buying that part, but whatever) when more shots were fired - and no one is disputing that many shots were fired during the entire situation. He didn't say anything about if Brown was heading toward Wilson or not when those final shots were fired, or if he had his hands up, or whatever.

we need to stop calling it "the officer's account". Wilson has not given an account. There are only unnamed sources and a woman who claims to be a friend of Wilson's wife who called a radio show. And this is the stuff being eaten up by some conservatives who can't tolerate the idea that the protesters might be right to protest.

The people are not protesting they are looting, stealing and destroying private property, just like most of America would expect people like that to do.

All of 'em?

 

[[icon]]

Where the hell did all the Brown backers go? They got taken to school.

By whom? Certainly wasn't brown...

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

Ever heard of the 21 foot rule, I didn't think so. Not that I believe that he was 30 feet away, it is difficult to hit a moving target at 30 feet, by the way.

Yep.

At 30', if your aim is off by a lousy 3 degrees, you'll miss your intended target by 2 FEET. Pistols have very short barrels and are notoriously inaccurate in the hands of all but the best shooters. Factor in adrenaline, motion, chaos.... good luck.

Don't forget broken orbital socket. Try firing a gun with a fresh one of those.Where the hell did all the Brown backers go? They got taken to school.

"Brown backers"? Really?

 

[timschochet]

Newest witness Michael Brady on anderson cooper

'I see the officer get out of the car and immediately start shooting'

Michael Brady is stepping forward with a new account of Michael Brown's final moments. He was inside his apartment when he first heard Brown's altercation with Officer Darren WIlson, then he saw it out the window. Brady says he ran outside after the first shots were fired. He tells Anderson that's when the next round of shooting began.

Michael Brady is offering just one of a growing number of sometimes conflicting accounts of what happened in the moments before Michael Brown lost his life. Randi Kaye takes a closer look.

Yeah, that's what I'd do if I heard gunshots outside my place. I'd run right out there. And it only took 11 days for that dude to concoct that story...errrrr report what he saw.

And here we have a prime example. Jim11, who wants the cops to be exonerated, believes every witness on his "side" as completely honest, while every witness on the side of the protestors as dishonest. In this regard, Jim is no different from the protestors. Both sides have made up their minds long since.

Actually, the way I read it, this account in no way contradicts the officer's account (as I understand it). He's only stating what shots he heard, he's got no idea what shots struck Brown and which didn't. He's saying there was an "altercation", one loud enough to get his attention while in his apartment. That's what the cop's story is as well. Then some shots (no number given) were fired - we don't know if those struck Brown or not. We also don't know if those where the shots fired when there was a struggle for the gun (if there was one). Then the guy ran outside to see better (like Jim, I'm not buying that part, but whatever) when more shots were fired - and no one is disputing that many shots were fired during the entire situation. He didn't say anything about if Brown was heading toward Wilson or not when those final shots were fired, or if he had his hands up, or whatever.

we need to stop calling it "the officer's account". Wilson has not given an account. There are only unnamed sources and a woman who claims to be a friend of Wilson's wife who called a radio show. And this is the stuff being eaten up by some conservatives who can't tolerate the idea that the protesters might be right to protest.

The people are not protesting they are looting, stealing and destroying private property, just like most of America would expect people like that to do.

1. So all of the protestors were looting and destroying private property?

2. Can you explain what you mean by "people like that"?

 

[GrandpaRox]

It is amazing how cut and dry these stories start out to be where the white guy is clearly in the wrong and as the facts slowly come out perhaps there was justification to the act after all.

White people are so victimized in this country!

Jesus. You claim you hate when someone does this ####, yet you do it all of the time. It's Timpocrisies like this that bother people the most.

No kidding. Tim has the biggest hissy fit of FoxNews reports anything wrong, especially if it concerns his dear leader, out of some unfounded fear that rednecks will resort to violence. But Tim has no problem when His media gets stories completely wrong which leads to actual riots and violence. I can not see how anyone can take complete opposite positions with a straight face.

Tim must see a lot of the hated white people on cnn looting and rioting often it seems....

Remember when all those white people rioted & looted after OJ got off?

i think you should come out and just say that black people are savages. Why #### around with examples and hints?

Cause you would get banned? You cannot have a two way discussion on this site, there is only one view that has total immunity,

 

[timschochet]

Ever heard of the 21 foot rule, I didn't think so. Not that I believe that he was 30 feet away, it is difficult to hit a moving target at 30 feet, by the way.

Yep.

At 30', if your aim is off by a lousy 3 degrees, you'll miss your intended target by 2 FEET. Pistols have very short barrels and are notoriously inaccurate in the hands of all but the best shooters. Factor in adrenaline, motion, chaos.... good luck.

Don't forget broken orbital socket. Try firing a gun with a fresh one of those.Where the hell did all the Brown backers go? They got taken to school.

"Brown backers"? Really?

I know. It's really sad. Had to deal with the same crap in the Zimmerman case. Those of us who believed Zimmerman murdered Treyvon Martin were "Treyvon fans".

 

[timschochet]

It is amazing how cut and dry these stories start out to be where the white guy is clearly in the wrong and as the facts slowly come out perhaps there was justification to the act after all.

White people are so victimized in this country!

Jesus. You claim you hate when someone does this ####, yet you do it all of the time. It's Timpocrisies like this that bother people the most.

No kidding. Tim has the biggest hissy fit of FoxNews reports anything wrong, especially if it concerns his dear leader, out of some unfounded fear that rednecks will resort to violence. But Tim has no problem when His media gets stories completely wrong which leads to actual riots and violence. I can not see how anyone can take complete opposite positions with a straight face.

Tim must see a lot of the hated white people on cnn looting and rioting often it seems....

Remember when all those white people rioted & looted after OJ got off?

i think you should come out and just say that black people are savages. Why #### around with examples and hints?

Cause you would get banned? You cannot have a two way discussion on this site, there is only one view that has total immunity,

So in other words, you believe this, but you're scared to say it?

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

"If racists be for us, who can be against us?"

OY

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

In the end, I guess I'd have to admit that I'm a "dead kid that might not have had to have died" backer.

Not really into the status quo, I suppose.

If dead kids is the "way it works", maybe, just perhaps, we need to reevaluate things on every level.

I'm really not on the "people being shot to death in the streets" team on any level.

 

[GrandpaRox]

I haven't read the last few pages. Has the video of the Powell killing been posted yet? Probably. But it bears repeating. This is just amazing. How can you watch this and not be mortified:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ta2-7QJM78

Primarily because the guy had a weapon and was advancing on officers. I'm sad about it. I wish the police had handled it differently. But I don't think it's a crazy reaction to a guy coming at you with a knife.

I do dislike the fact that the officer's description of events doesn't match the video. Immensely.

Are you kidding me?? I'm horrified. Two police officers, equipped with tasers and pepper spray, kill a mentally disturbed man in cold blood within SECONDS of showing up. They don't assess the situation or try and figure out the best course. And two shots were fired at the man AFTER he was on the ground, incapacitated, and probably near death. Watch the shooting video again. And again. And again. And then watch the video of the PR man describing how it went down.

That man never lunged at him with a knife. His hands were down the whole time.

I think each patrol unit should have a psychiatrist with them. And a couch.

Did you watch the video? A half dozen onlookers were there laughing, milling about near the man. These ordinary unarmed citizens did not feal threatened or that their lives were in danger. Any one of us fat couch serfers, with a can of mace or a tazer (and a buddy next to you also armed with mace and taser), could have dealt with this man without killing him, or shooting him while he was lying on the ground bleeding to death.

Is there nobody here that agrees with me? Has the world gone crazy?

1:24 the cops get out of their unit

1:40 first shot fired

1:43 last shot fired.

During the majority of those first 16 seconds, before a shot was fired, the guy was armed, acting irrationally and moving towards the police when told not too.

16 ### ####ed seconds.

You do better. I'd love to see it.

If I didn't have a gun at my disposal, I'm sure me and a good-sized buddy, armed and trained with Tazers and Pepper Spray, could deal with this without anyone dying.

If I have a gun in my hand, and not otherwise trained to deal with this situation . . . there is a good chance I'm shooting somebody.

I guess therein lies the rub.

My only issue is that if you're going to fire that many shots, why not send a few at his legs before going to the torso?

Never shoot at anything but center mass. Your ignorance in your statement show that you know nothing about which you are speaking.

 

[[icon]]

One documented case had a guy take a fatal shot to a chest artery and still managed to walk around and shoot 5 FBI agents before going down. If that can happen then what do you think the possibilities are for a guy with a leg wound?

The problem with this stuff is we have people who have watched too many movies forming concrete and unwavering opinions despite actually having zero real knowledge on this sort of stuff.

Reference: Head of the oldest independent officer training school (in Chicago). On the radio this morning. Talked about this exact thing and this exact occurrence. Go here. Interview with Jim Gennon. Start at 10:00 and listen for a minute or so.

Cold hard fact - people can do things in times of stress that don't seem possible.

I was agreeing with you. I've tried to explain repeatedly to the lynch mob in here that the idea of "Fire one round and take out the bad guy on a whim" is ignorant to the point of being comical.