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Mandates to wear things - A pole (1 Viewer)

The government does not have the right to mandate I wear clothing

  • I agree

    Votes: 23 26.4%
  • I disagree

    Votes: 64 73.6%

  • Total voters
    87
Yep.  And amazingly after a 18 months at this I haven't seen a government/cdc report on testing of masks in the field on COVID.  A real one, a test and control group or something close not some silly Utah before mask mandate, Utah after mask mandate comparison.  Of course if someone has that would love to see it.
Since masks work to some degree, there are some ethical decisions in assigning people to a no-mask control group. But there would be lots of willing participants. I think a GPS-tracking study could've lead to some conclusions about spread - if thousands of participants had been enrolled in a few locations. 

Has the CDC conducted any surveys on people who have been tested for COVID, such as a pre-test survey of behaviors addressing why are you being tested, where have you been, have you been vaccinated, how do you wear masks, household composition, etc. That could be a condition for getting a free COVID test.  It wouldn't be perfect data, but better than what we have now.  Lots of money has been allocated by the government for COVID, I wish there had been some good studies on masks and social distancing.

 
Since masks work to some degree, there are some ethical decisions in assigning people to a no-mask control group. But there would be lots of willing participants. I think a GPS-tracking study could've lead to some conclusions about spread - if thousands of participants had been enrolled in a few locations. 

Has the CDC conducted any surveys on people who have been tested for COVID, such as a pre-test survey of behaviors addressing why are you being tested, where have you been, have you been vaccinated, how do you wear masks, household composition, etc. That could be a condition for getting a free COVID test.  It wouldn't be perfect data, but better than what we have now.  Lots of money has been allocated by the government for COVID, I wish there had been some good studies on masks and social distancing.
TBH, when we say "masks work to some degree"...I think the better way to phrase it up is over a meaningful amount of time do we see a discernable decrease in COVID spread as a result of mask wearing relative to the costs of wearing masks.  I think this question is particularly relevant for children.  The idea of "work to some degree" basically sets some irrelevant bar that is simply greater than zero, while not examining the costs.

Here's an interesting related Opinion

 
So glad the Governor has the balls to stand up and back up his non mandate position.

Can't say I agree with much of the Right politically, but spot on with the mask dogma.

 
TBH, when we say "masks work to some degree"...I think the better way to phrase it up is over a meaningful amount of time do we see a discernable decrease in COVID spread as a result of mask wearing relative to the costs of wearing masks. 


I have yet to see this data, in fact the states that opened up first did not support this position at all.  

eta - checking yet again, even the CDC is sticking with the phrase "may" 3 times in its position on masks helping:

Masks may help prevent people who have COVID-19 from spreading the virus to others. The CDC has guidance for wearing masks. Wearing a face mask may limit exposure to respiratory droplets and large particles and may help prevent people who have COVID-19 from spreading the virus.


Pretty non committal 18 months into it, wouldn't you say?

 
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TBH, when we say "masks work to some degree"...I think the better way to phrase it up is over a meaningful amount of time do we see a discernable decrease in COVID spread as a result of mask wearing relative to the costs of wearing masks.  I think this question is particularly relevant for children.  The idea of "work to some degree" basically sets some irrelevant bar that is simply greater than zero, while not examining the costs.

Here's an interesting related Opinion
Masks are the go to for one reason only. 

 
I think the better way to phrase it up is over a meaningful amount of time do we see a discernable decrease in COVID spread as a result of mask wearing relative to the costs of wearing masks.  I think this question is particularly relevant for children.  The idea of "work to some degree" basically sets some irrelevant bar that is simply greater than zero, while not examining the costs.


What is the "cost" to wearing a mask?

 
What is the "cost" to wearing a mask?
Unfortunately we don't know.  Just like we don't really know what the benefits are.

Example discussion

Last week, a study in JAMA Pediatrics created consternation. The study took 45 kids (ages 6 to 17) and asked them to wear a mask. It measured rates of CO2 inside the mask. The rates were high, and inversely related to age: the youngest kids appeared to have the highest CO2 concentration.


Is it that hard to imagine that there would be impact on children from wearing plastic face coverings for 8hrs a day?  Do you think there could be a cost?

 
What's the cost of wearing the uniform that the state tells you to wear?  

"I don't feel like wearing that" is a completely fine position that requires no further justification.  
:shrug:

"I think the better way to phrase it up is over a meaningful amount of time do we see a discernable decrease in COVID spread as a result of mask wearing relative to the costs of wearing masks."

This is what I responded to - seems relevant to determine the cost of wearing a mask. 

Now, clearly that's not a conversation you want to have - and that fine - but the "slippery slope argument" is not really relevant to this conversation.  Certainly, part of the "cost" of wearing the mask is giving up some freedom - what I wanted to know is how to measure that cost.  You seem to think its an insurmountable cost, because before you know it, we will be indoctrinating kids into pledging allegiance to a flag.

 
I’m curious.  If we accept that premise - that some segment of the population wants masks forever.  My question is - why?  I have no clue what the big brother conspiracy theory is here.   Masks forever to what end?
Sounds dumb to me for sure.

But....to speculate

Masks have become part of some peoples identities, particular political.

Covid is probably never going away completely and a lot of people are never going to be comfortable, so would be good to have some reasons to justify continued mask usage and feel better about it.  Like, they help you learn...lol.  Like...I saw an article that said upcoming flu seasons are going to be really bad (so we should always wear a mask).

 
I’m curious.  If we accept that premise - that some segment of the population wants masks forever.  My question is - why?  I have no clue what the big brother conspiracy theory is here.   Masks forever to what end?
Classical conditioning.  Seriously.

People like us -- folks who took covid seriously -- spent a year or so wearing masks more or less religiously.  We didn't get covid.  That's an entire year of our lizard brains learning "my mask keeps me safe."  Getting vaccinated is great because it makes covid not so scary any more, but our lizard brains aren't having it.  Those masks kept us safe for a year, so it stands to reason that taking off my mask is the equivalent of drinking a liter of coronavirus and will make me suffocate to death within minutes of letting it slip down under my nose.  Obviously that's silly and irrational, but that's how our lizard brains evolved. 

I definitely experienced this myself.  From spring break 2020 to February 2021, I went to the gym zero times.  I run 4-5 days a week, but I was determined to avoid the gym even when it reopened, because there's just no way that a gym is a safe place to be when there is a novel respiratory virus floating around.  Well, in late February we had a very cold cold snap, and I ended up going a couple of times first thing in the morning (very few people around, air has been turned over overnight) to get in some minimal mileage.  Taking off my mask in a public setting felt really weird and dangerous.  A couple of months later, after vaccination I had the same feeling the first time I went to the store without a mask -- I felt irrationally vulnerable walking around with two shots of Moderna flowing through my veins and I felt like I kind of wanted that security blanket for my face back.  But I know about conditioning and I recognized it for what it was.  After a couple of days, I was over it.  It was just a matter of realizing "My brain has irrationally formed a link between 'wearing a mask' and 'being alive' that doesn't make sense any more -- time to show my lizard brain how science works."  I think some of the more zealous pro-mask people are just stuck in security-blanket mode, and will be until they're dragged kicking and screaming back into normal life.  Then they'll be totally fine after a week.

As a runner, I feel obliged to add that so-called "taper madness" experienced by marathoners is the same thing.  During marathon training, you simultaneously feel tired and sore and also gain fitness.  Your brain inevitably comes to associate "being tired and sore" with "being fit."  When you start to taper and all that soreness goes away, runners irrationally fear that they're also losing fitness.  Just being aware that your brain can trick you this way is all it really takes to short circuit this process.       

 
Classical conditioning.  Seriously.

People like us -- folks who took covid seriously -- spent a year or so wearing masks more or less religiously.  We didn't get covid.  That's an entire year of our lizard brains learning "my mask keeps me safe."  Getting vaccinated is great because it makes covid not so scary any more, but our lizard brains aren't having it.  Those masks kept us safe for a year, so it stands to reason that taking off my mask is the equivalent of drinking a liter of coronavirus and will make me suffocate to death within minutes of letting it slip down under my nose.  Obviously that's silly and irrational, but that's how our lizard brains evolved. 

I definitely experienced this myself.  From spring break 2020 to February 2021, I went to the gym zero times.  I run 4-5 days a week, but I was determined to avoid the gym even when it reopened, because there's just no way that a gym is a safe place to be when there is a novel respiratory virus floating around.  Well, in late February we had a very cold cold snap, and I ended up going a couple of times first thing in the morning (very few people around, air has been turned over overnight) to get in some minimal mileage.  Taking off my mask in a public setting felt really weird and dangerous.  A couple of months later, after vaccination I had the same feeling the first time I went to the store without a mask -- I felt irrationally vulnerable walking around with two shots of Moderna flowing through my veins and I felt like I kind of wanted that security blanket for my face back.  But I know about conditioning and I recognized it for what it was.  After a couple of days, I was over it.  It was just a matter of realizing "My brain has irrationally formed a link between 'wearing a mask' and 'being alive' that doesn't make sense any more -- time to show my lizard brain how science works."  I think some of the more zealous pro-mask people are just stuck in security-blanket mode, and will be until they're dragged kicking and screaming back into normal life.  Then they'll be totally fine after a week.

As a runner, I feel obliged to add that so-called "taper madness" experienced by marathoners is the same thing.  During marathon training, you simultaneously feel tired and sore and also gain fitness.  Your brain inevitably comes to associate "being tired and sore" with "being fit."  When you start to taper and all that soreness goes away, runners irrationally fear that they're also losing fitness.  Just being aware that your brain can trick you this way is all it really takes to short circuit this process.       


Yeah, I remember you talking about this before and the psychology of it I get - what I don't get and still don't understand is, to what end?  Why are "they" conditioning me to wear a mask.  I mean, it sounds nefarious but I guess I just don't see it.  Is it to exert control over me in some way?  Is that it?

 
Yeah, I remember you talking about this before and the psychology of it I get - what I don't get and still don't understand is, to what end?  Why are "they" conditioning me to wear a mask.  I mean, it sounds nefarious but I guess I just don't see it.  Is it to exert control over me in some way?  Is that it?
Sorry -- I didn't mean that "they" were intentionally trying to condition anybody.  What I meant was that "they" are conditioned (just like I was) and haven't broken the spell yet.  In other words, it's nothing nefarious.  It's just a normal cognitive thing in humans that happens to be mis-firing under the current circumstances.

 
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