Mario Williams v Reggie Bush (1 Viewer)

[mdog1967]

I'd take Vince Young over both of them.

Vince Young was never an option for the Texans.

why not he played college ball in Texas and seemed like a no brainer. How many tackles did Mario Williams have this past Sunday against a real team and not the Chiefs.

Because they picked up David Carr's $24M option in February. Williams had 1 tackle, one less than the best DE in the league. The stat sheet also doesn't show how Mario was in the backfield nearly every play and that the attention paid to him allowed Okoye to get 4 tackles and 2 sacks.Mario is doing everything any Texan fan could ever ask for.

gb only being asked to make 1 tackle a week when your a #1 draft pick

Now you look silly for laughing at that post, I watched the game and Mario was a dissruptive force for the entire 60 minutes, his efforts contributed to his team mates fantastic defensive play. The previous poster made a very good point, your ignorance in this instance is whats laughable. Now again I'll have to see the same kind of effort from Mario for the duration to feel that the Texans got their moneys worth. Tackles are a component, stats dont lie unless there is more to the story. As with most defensive units it is the play of all in the Unit that makes them strong and not a just a csinlge effort by one, Morio showed up yesterday and there wasnt a commentator in sports yesterday or today who commented on the Texans/Carolina game who didnt state that fact. FBG needs to think about banning that avitar for a while, cause it got egg all over your face.

 

[mdog1967]

Mario sucks for a #1, he should have been a 5th round pick. He is one of those guys who has all the strength and speed, but no athletic ability. I don't want to hear people say he is an super athelet b/c he can run fast, jump high and is strong as an ox. Pure and simple he probably can not even hit the damn backboard with a basketball, not too mention he is not into this football thing. Reggie will be good if Payton pulls his head out of his ###. The plays look like the SF offense (don't get me started), all predictable and run, run, pass 4 yards and then punt. Duece is fat and no moves, quit giving him the ball on first. throw the damn ball to him when they are not expecting it. I feel like we have another Hermanator calling the plays for the Saints.Reggie will be really good if used right. They need to use him as a runner right now and keep the other coordinators guessing

Your wrong on all points that didnt include the Payton needs to pull his.......................................... line.The Saints lost all 4 games last year when Duece ran for 50 yards or less, Duece is the engine for the Saints and if they refuse to run the ball with a running back instead of forcing Mr. Happy Feet to dance around the line of scrimmage they will continue to lose. So far Duece is averaging right around 5yds a carry.Mario may have been overated coming out of college, early second round latest but no way is he a 5th round talent. BUSH and Ginn will serve the same fate, they will fade away into obscurity and there will be many post in the years to come when the Tag line will be "Remeber when everyone was all over thmeselves about Reggie Bush". There's flash in the Pan, his name is Reggie and their a real hardcore football players, guys Like Duece, Alstot, Edge, Gore, Jackson, LT. Bush will be remebered like Akli Smith, so much promise, so much talent and lots of dissapointement. He keeps his current play up he will be remebered more like Enis. Bush is starting to look a lot like J.J. Arrington, too afraid to attack the hole, next thing we will see is Bush running out of bounds to avoid being hit, or going down easy like "Finger Tip Tackle Jackson" of the Green Bay Packers.

 

[CGRdrJoe]

I'd take Vince Young over both of them.

Vince Young was never an option for the Texans.

why not he played college ball in Texas and seemed like a no brainer. How many tackles did Mario Williams have this past Sunday against a real team and not the Chiefs.

Because they picked up David Carr's $24M option in February. Williams had 1 tackle, one less than the best DE in the league. The stat sheet also doesn't show how Mario was in the backfield nearly every play and that the attention paid to him allowed Okoye to get 4 tackles and 2 sacks.Mario is doing everything any Texan fan could ever ask for.

gb only being asked to make 1 tackle a week when your a #1 draft pick

Now you look silly for laughing at that post, I watched the game and Mario was a dissruptive force for the entire 60 minutes, his efforts contributed to his team mates fantastic defensive play. The previous poster made a very good point, your ignorance in this instance is whats laughable. Now again I'll have to see the same kind of effort from Mario for the duration to feel that the Texans got their moneys worth. Tackles are a component, stats dont lie unless there is more to the story. As with most defensive units it is the play of all in the Unit that makes them strong and not a just a csinlge effort by one, Morio showed up yesterday and there wasnt a commentator in sports yesterday or today who commented on the Texans/Carolina game who didnt state that fact. FBG needs to think about banning that avitar for a while, cause it got egg all over your face. :(

and I'm guessing that what Reggie Bush did last year is a moot point: 88rec 742yds 2tds155 att 565 yds 6tds

 

[corpcow]

What does Ahman Green have to do with it?

They did not know they would have Green this year when they made their decision to draft Williams.

While this is true, I do think the point is in part that they could get someone like Ahman Green (or Dominick Davis/Williams, who they thought they had at the time). RB is a glamorous and important position for us, but it's also perhaps one of the most easily replaced. It's the easiest for a rookie to pick up and step in and be productive for a reason. And, as you can see with LT and SJax so far this year, an uber-stud can be easily "removed" from a game. It doesn't matter if you're getting 5.0 or even 10 YPC if your team is down 21 pts.

 

[mdog1967]

I'd take Vince Young over both of them.

Vince Young was never an option for the Texans.

why not he played college ball in Texas and seemed like a no brainer. How many tackles did Mario Williams have this past Sunday against a real team and not the Chiefs.

Because they picked up David Carr's $24M option in February. Williams had 1 tackle, one less than the best DE in the league. The stat sheet also doesn't show how Mario was in the backfield nearly every play and that the attention paid to him allowed Okoye to get 4 tackles and 2 sacks.Mario is doing everything any Texan fan could ever ask for.

gb only being asked to make 1 tackle a week when your a #1 draft pick

Now you look silly for laughing at that post, I watched the game and Mario was a dissruptive force for the entire 60 minutes, his efforts contributed to his team mates fantastic defensive play. The previous poster made a very good point, your ignorance in this instance is whats laughable. Now again I'll have to see the same kind of effort from Mario for the duration to feel that the Texans got their moneys worth. Tackles are a component, stats dont lie unless there is more to the story. As with most defensive units it is the play of all in the Unit that makes them strong and not a just a csinlge effort by one, Morio showed up yesterday and there wasnt a commentator in sports yesterday or today who commented on the Texans/Carolina game who didnt state that fact. FBG needs to think about banning that avitar for a while, cause it got egg all over your face.

and I'm guessing that what Reggie Bush did last year is a moot point: 88rec 742yds 2tds155 att 565 yds 6tds

Thru two games so far this year.... yeah ......Moot

 

[the hairy scotsman]

I'd take Vince Young over both of them.

Vince Young was never an option for the Texans.

why not he played college ball in Texas and seemed like a no brainer. How many tackles did Mario Williams have this past Sunday against a real team and not the Chiefs.

Because they picked up David Carr's $24M option in February. Williams had 1 tackle, one less than the best DE in the league. The stat sheet also doesn't show how Mario was in the backfield nearly every play and that the attention paid to him allowed Okoye to get 4 tackles and 2 sacks.Mario is doing everything any Texan fan could ever ask for.

That's what makes you a Texan fan.Vinny Young is dominating... every week.Mario may be a good player at some point.

Never an option?LOL...The Texans said they couldn't take Young 'cause they were committed to Carr for the long haul. I guess by "long haul" they meant "til the end of the season". Then they had to go out and find a new qb from the backup qb pool. Meanwhile, VY abused their #1 draft pick en route to a victory over the Texans in Houston, leaving the Texans fans who weren't cheering for Vince hanging their heads and muttering to themselves. I was there. It was quite a sight.

 

[-OZ-]

Mario and the Texans = 2-0, and look pretty decent.

VY and the Titans = 1-1, but their loss was close against (probably) the best team in the NFL, the team also looks pretty good

Bush and the Saints = 0-2, not so much.

Obviously we can't judge it this simply, and the Saints did make the playoffs last year, but winning has to be factored in.

 

[phthalatemagic]

What does Ahman Green have to do with it?

Should be obvious.

Yes. He was drafted by the Texans with the first overall pick.

 

[kupcho1]

What does Ahman Green have to do with it?

They did not know they would have Green this year when they made their decision to draft Williams.

Denver RB system down?

Which actually buttresses my point. Ahman Green has nothing to do with your question.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

What does Ahman Green have to do with it?

Should be obvious.

Yes. He was drafted by the Texans with the first overall pick.

Yes, exactly...

 

[Buckna]

What does Ahman Green have to do with it?

Should be obvious.

Again, couldn't they have brought in a Defensive End for $23 million too if they had drafted Bush?

You serious?

Partially. The fact is that Houston spent $23 million on a 30-year old RB. Your "argument" breaks down because you are comparing a player acquired through a draft pick to a player acquired through a draft pick PLUS a player acquired through a $23 million contract. Since you apparently want to look at this draft "a few years down the road" why are we including a 30 year old RB? Plus you're neglecting the fact that it took another first round pick to free up Williams.

That isn't even likely, let alone a fact. What is reasonably likely is that Houston is going to spend $8.5m (his first 2 years cap totals) on a 30 year old running back and then cut him at the cost of a small cap hit, somewhere in the $500k to $1.5m range.

Just to add on to this. Ahman Green only signed for $6.5M guaranteed over 4 years. He's never coming close to the total $23M quoted in the contract.

 

[guderian]

What does Ahman Green have to do with it?

Should be obvious.

Again, couldn't they have brought in a Defensive End for $23 million too if they had drafted Bush?

You serious?

Partially. The fact is that Houston spent $23 million on a 30-year old RB. Your "argument" breaks down because you are comparing a player acquired through a draft pick to a player acquired through a draft pick PLUS a player acquired through a $23 million contract. Since you apparently want to look at this draft "a few years down the road" why are we including a 30 year old RB? Plus you're neglecting the fact that it took another first round pick to free up Williams.

I will tell you as a Redskins fan, no! My team's been trying to do that for the last 15 years, and the best they've been able to come up with has been an aging Bruce Smith and a decent but not great Andre Carter. Good DE's are hard to find anywhere but the draft, unless you want to overpay them in FA or trade an arm and a leg for them. Great DE's simply don't go to other teams because their current teams lock them up and keep them locked up.

What did you give up to get Portis? An RB that is actually still in his prime. I would equate an aging and injury prone Ahman Green with an aging Bruce Smith.

 

[guderian]

Mario sucks for a #1, he should have been a 5th round pick. He is one of those guys who has all the strength and speed, but no athletic ability. I don't want to hear people say he is an super athelet b/c he can run fast, jump high and is strong as an ox. Pure and simple he probably can not even hit the damn backboard with a basketball, not too mention he is not into this football thing. Reggie will be good if Payton pulls his head out of his ###. The plays look like the SF offense (don't get me started), all predictable and run, run, pass 4 yards and then punt. Duece is fat and no moves, quit giving him the ball on first. throw the damn ball to him when they are not expecting it. I feel like we have another Hermanator calling the plays for the Saints.Reggie will be really good if used right. They need to use him as a runner right now and keep the other coordinators guessing

Your wrong on all points that didnt include the Payton needs to pull his.......................................... line.The Saints lost all 4 games last year when Duece ran for 50 yards or less, Duece is the engine for the Saints and if they refuse to run the ball with a running back instead of forcing Mr. Happy Feet to dance around the line of scrimmage they will continue to lose. So far Duece is averaging right around 5yds a carry.Mario may have been overated coming out of college, early second round latest but no way is he a 5th round talent. BUSH and Ginn will serve the same fate, they will fade away into obscurity and there will be many post in the years to come when the Tag line will be "Remeber when everyone was all over thmeselves about Reggie Bush". There's flash in the Pan, his name is Reggie and their a real hardcore football players, guys Like Duece, Alstot, Edge, Gore, Jackson, LT. Bush will be remebered like Akli Smith, so much promise, so much talent and lots of dissapointement. He keeps his current play up he will be remebered more like Enis. Bush is starting to look a lot like J.J. Arrington, too afraid to attack the hole, next thing we will see is Bush running out of bounds to avoid being hit, or going down easy like "Finger Tip Tackle Jackson" of the Green Bay Packers.

This must be a joke. Bush is averaging 84 yards per game and 0.55 TDs per game and he's splitting significant time with Deuce. Bush was a significant reason that the Saints made the playoffs and played in the NFC Championship game.

 

[kingmalaki]

No one can say Green has nothing to do with the equation. One of the reasons they passed on taking a RB is because they felt they could find a productive back to fit their system. They actually thought they had one already (even though I don't know why they weren't up to date on the Dominic injury). They felt a quality DE was harder to find than a quality RB.

Their error was in thinking they had a quality QB. Giving a boatload of money to Carr, then passing on Vince (who was begging to play there and made sense on and off the field), then cutting Carr a yr later and giving up two picks for a QB threw egg on the teams face. Schuab is paying off so far though so maybe they will get out of that one too....

 

[singe du doigt]

Mario and the Texans = 2-0, and look pretty decent.

VY and the Titans = 1-1, but their loss was close against (probably) the best team in the NFL, the team also looks pretty good

Bush and the Saints = 0-2, not so much.

Obviously we can't judge it this simply, and the Saints did make the playoffs last year go to the NFCCG last year, but winning has to be factored in.

They didn't just make the playoffs last year.

 

[GregR_2]

No one can say Green has nothing to do with the equation. One of the reasons they passed on taking a RB is because they felt they could find a productive back to fit their system. They actually thought they had one already (even though I don't know why they weren't up to date on the Dominic injury). They felt a quality DE was harder to find than a quality RB.

Their error was in thinking they had a quality QB. Giving a boatload of money to Carr, then passing on Vince (who was begging to play there and made sense on and off the field), then cutting Carr a yr later and giving up two picks for a QB threw egg on the teams face. Schuab is paying off so far though so maybe they will get out of that one too....

They were up to date on it. He had healed but then reinjured it during the first week or two of camp last year, after all the roster decisions had been made.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

What does Ahman Green have to do with it?

Should be obvious.

Again, couldn't they have brought in a Defensive End for $23 million too if they had drafted Bush?

You serious?

Partially. The fact is that Houston spent $23 million on a 30-year old RB. Your "argument" breaks down because you are comparing a player acquired through a draft pick to a player acquired through a draft pick PLUS a player acquired through a $23 million contract. Since you apparently want to look at this draft "a few years down the road" why are we including a 30 year old RB? Plus you're neglecting the fact that it took another first round pick to free up Williams.

I will tell you as a Redskins fan, no! My team's been trying to do that for the last 15 years, and the best they've been able to come up with has been an aging Bruce Smith and a decent but not great Andre Carter. Good DE's are hard to find anywhere but the draft, unless you want to overpay them in FA or trade an arm and a leg for them. Great DE's simply don't go to other teams because their current teams lock them up and keep them locked up.

What did you give up to get Portis? An RB that is actually still in his prime. I would equate an aging and injury prone Ahman Green with an aging Bruce Smith.

Except Ahman is actually productive right now. Watching Bruce Smith in Washington was kinda sad.So anyway... let's get started on the hits at DE that have been acquired at a discount in FA the last 10 years.

Go.

 

[guderian]

What does Ahman Green have to do with it?

Should be obvious.

Again, couldn't they have brought in a Defensive End for $23 million too if they had drafted Bush?

You serious?

Partially. The fact is that Houston spent $23 million on a 30-year old RB. Your "argument" breaks down because you are comparing a player acquired through a draft pick to a player acquired through a draft pick PLUS a player acquired through a $23 million contract. Since you apparently want to look at this draft "a few years down the road" why are we including a 30 year old RB? Plus you're neglecting the fact that it took another first round pick to free up Williams.

I will tell you as a Redskins fan, no! My team's been trying to do that for the last 15 years, and the best they've been able to come up with has been an aging Bruce Smith and a decent but not great Andre Carter. Good DE's are hard to find anywhere but the draft, unless you want to overpay them in FA or trade an arm and a leg for them. Great DE's simply don't go to other teams because their current teams lock them up and keep them locked up.

What did you give up to get Portis? An RB that is actually still in his prime. I would equate an aging and injury prone Ahman Green with an aging Bruce Smith.

Except Ahman is actually productive right now. Watching Bruce Smith in Washington was kinda sad.So anyway... let's get started on the hits at DE that have been acquired at a discount in FA the last 10 years.

Go.

You keep trying to pin me to an argument that neither I nor anyone else is making. It's a rather simple concept, I'm just surprised that you're trying to make it into such a big deal.

 

[by_tor]

What does Ahman Green have to do with it?

Should be obvious.

Again, couldn't they have brought in a Defensive End for $23 million too if they had drafted Bush?

You serious?

Partially. The fact is that Houston spent $23 million on a 30-year old RB. Your "argument" breaks down because you are comparing a player acquired through a draft pick to a player acquired through a draft pick PLUS a player acquired through a $23 million contract. Since you apparently want to look at this draft "a few years down the road" why are we including a 30 year old RB? Plus you're neglecting the fact that it took another first round pick to free up Williams.

I will tell you as a Redskins fan, no! My team's been trying to do that for the last 15 years, and the best they've been able to come up with has been an aging Bruce Smith and a decent but not great Andre Carter. Good DE's are hard to find anywhere but the draft, unless you want to overpay them in FA or trade an arm and a leg for them. Great DE's simply don't go to other teams because their current teams lock them up and keep them locked up.

What did you give up to get Portis? An RB that is actually still in his prime. I would equate an aging and injury prone Ahman Green with an aging Bruce Smith.

Except Ahman is actually productive right now. Watching Bruce Smith in Washington was kinda sad.So anyway... let's get started on the hits at DE that have been acquired at a discount in FA the last 10 years.

Go.

not many hits PERIOD, and never at a discount- RWhite went to GB 10yrs deep in pro ball; JKearse and SRice are in the conversation as young DEs traded in their primethe WashReds gave up the best corner in the league who promptly signed for an $18mill bonus with Denver

'shut-down corner' and 'monster def end' only get away when they demand $$$ so high that their current team can't/won't resign 'em.

-the darren howard's and trevor pryce's of the league? they get around, but the strahan/taylor/freeney's of the world will stay (and get PAAAAIIIIDDD!!!)

 

[Yenrub]

Bump after the head to head matchup

 

[GregR_2]

Mario was a beast yesterday. He had a fairly good stat line but it falls short of what his impact on the game was when it came to disrupting the timing of plays and such. On the year, Mario is ahead of Bush and VY both IMHO, but still isn't putting out a consistent enough effort to be a #1 overall pick. Given just that 1 draft pick to do over and no ability to trade down, I'd probably go with McNeill.

 

[Tau837]

Keep in mind, Mario Williams doesn't turn 23 until January 31, 2008. He was very young entering the NFL. He isn't even close to his prime yet. He has already proven to be the right pick IMO, given position scarcity and the quality of his play, and he will only improve from here.

 

[GregR_2]

Caught something on sports radio 610 to the effect that if you look at all the teams in the league and looked at how productive teams are running left or right against each team, Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye are the hardest two players on the D-line to run against this year.

 

[Yenrub]

Caught something on sports radio 610 to the effect that if you look at all the teams in the league and looked at how productive teams are running left or right against each team, Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye are the hardest two players on the D-line to run against this year.

Any place we can see stats like this?

 

[corpcow]

Mario was a beast yesterday. He had a fairly good stat line but it falls short of what his impact on the game was when it came to disrupting the timing of plays and such. On the year, Mario is ahead of Bush and VY both IMHO, but still isn't putting out a consistent enough effort to be a #1 overall pick. Given just that 1 draft pick to do over and no ability to trade down, I'd probably go with McNeill.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but the McNeill pick was viewed as a very risk pick given his injury history... and even if you went LT, D'Brick would have been the consensus pick.

 

[GregR_2]

Caught something on sports radio 610 to the effect that if you look at all the teams in the league and looked at how productive teams are running left or right against each team, Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye are the hardest two players on the D-line to run against this year.

Any place we can see stats like this?

I have seen stats for an individual RB going left or right, but not formulated based on what a team's defense did left or right. Football Outsiders might have a data set that would work, not sure. I wish I'd heard more of the broadcast, as the way they said it made it sound like something they'd discussed in more detail earlier in the show and were just referring back to.

 

[Franchise Playa]

Mario was a beast yesterday. He had a fairly good stat line but it falls short of what his impact on the game was when it came to disrupting the timing of plays and such. On the year, Mario is ahead of Bush and VY both IMHO, but still isn't putting out a consistent enough effort to be a #1 overall pick. Given just that 1 draft pick to do over and no ability to trade down, I'd probably go with McNeill.

To be honest I would hope my teams starting DE abuses a backup LT on an already bad o-line...I don't think him playing well against a backup LT means much. He has a long way to go and should not have been taken #1 imo...He will be solid but you can find solid in later rounds...

 

[SSOG]

Caught something on sports radio 610 to the effect that if you look at all the teams in the league and looked at how productive teams are running left or right against each team, Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye are the hardest two players on the D-line to run against this year.

Any place we can see stats like this?

I have seen stats for an individual RB going left or right, but not formulated based on what a team's defense did left or right. Football Outsiders might have a data set that would work, not sure. I wish I'd heard more of the broadcast, as the way they said it made it sound like something they'd discussed in more detail earlier in the show and were just referring back to.

Yup, Football Outsiders has the goods.Houston's ranks defending runs in each direction:

Left End- 23rd (4.71 ypc)

Left Tackle- 26th (4.70 ypc)

Mid/Guard- 23rd (4.39 ypc)

Right Tackle- 2nd (2.72 ypc)

Right End- 21st (4.54 ypc)

Does Mario Williams play LDE (across from the right tackle)?

 

[mrspree15]

Caught something on sports radio 610 to the effect that if you look at all the teams in the league and looked at how productive teams are running left or right against each team, Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye are the hardest two players on the D-line to run against this year.

Any place we can see stats like this?

I have seen stats for an individual RB going left or right, but not formulated based on what a team's defense did left or right. Football Outsiders might have a data set that would work, not sure. I wish I'd heard more of the broadcast, as the way they said it made it sound like something they'd discussed in more detail earlier in the show and were just referring back to.

Yup, Football Outsiders has the goods.Houston's ranks defending runs in each direction:

Left End- 23rd (4.71 ypc)

Left Tackle- 26th (4.70 ypc)

Mid/Guard- 23rd (4.39 ypc)

Right Tackle- 2nd (2.72 ypc)

Right End- 21st (4.54 ypc)

Does Mario Williams play LDE (across from the right tackle)?

You'd think they'd be a little less terrible on Middle/Guard and Right End, eh?

 

[SSOG]

Caught something on sports radio 610 to the effect that if you look at all the teams in the league and looked at how productive teams are running left or right against each team, Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye are the hardest two players on the D-line to run against this year.

Any place we can see stats like this?

I have seen stats for an individual RB going left or right, but not formulated based on what a team's defense did left or right. Football Outsiders might have a data set that would work, not sure. I wish I'd heard more of the broadcast, as the way they said it made it sound like something they'd discussed in more detail earlier in the show and were just referring back to.

Yup, Football Outsiders has the goods.Houston's ranks defending runs in each direction:

Left End- 23rd (4.71 ypc)

Left Tackle- 26th (4.70 ypc)

Mid/Guard- 23rd (4.39 ypc)

Right Tackle- 2nd (2.72 ypc)

Right End- 21st (4.54 ypc)

Does Mario Williams play LDE (across from the right tackle)?

You'd think they'd be a little less terrible on Middle/Guard and Right End, eh?

Not really. In my experience, that's going to be more the responsibility of the LBs and CBs. Defensive linemen are pretty static- they encounter blockers pretty much immediately, so they have the least chance of any player on defense to move laterally during a play. Runs around the left or right end all go well wide of the tackle, so even if the DE is standing the tackle up, he doesn't have much chance to make an impact on the play. Plays to Mid/Guard include all runs behind the LG, C, or RG, so even if Williams is helping on runs behind RG, he can't do too much to impact the statistic (and even then, it's mostly going to be a reflection of the DTs rather than the DEs, unless you're in a 3-4).

 

[Yenrub]

Caught something on sports radio 610 to the effect that if you look at all the teams in the league and looked at how productive teams are running left or right against each team, Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye are the hardest two players on the D-line to run against this year.

Any place we can see stats like this?

I have seen stats for an individual RB going left or right, but not formulated based on what a team's defense did left or right. Football Outsiders might have a data set that would work, not sure. I wish I'd heard more of the broadcast, as the way they said it made it sound like something they'd discussed in more detail earlier in the show and were just referring back to.

Yup, Football Outsiders has the goods.Houston's ranks defending runs in each direction:

Left End- 23rd (4.71 ypc)

Left Tackle- 26th (4.70 ypc)

Mid/Guard- 23rd (4.39 ypc)

Right Tackle- 2nd (2.72 ypc)

Right End- 21st (4.54 ypc)

Does Mario Williams play LDE (across from the right tackle)?

Thanks for the link

 

[coolnerd]

Caught something on sports radio 610 to the effect that if you look at all the teams in the league and looked at how productive teams are running left or right against each team, Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye are the hardest two players on the D-line to run against this year.

Any place we can see stats like this?

I have seen stats for an individual RB going left or right, but not formulated based on what a team's defense did left or right. Football Outsiders might have a data set that would work, not sure. I wish I'd heard more of the broadcast, as the way they said it made it sound like something they'd discussed in more detail earlier in the show and were just referring back to.

Yup, Football Outsiders has the goods.Houston's ranks defending runs in each direction:

Left End- 23rd (4.71 ypc)

Left Tackle- 26th (4.70 ypc)

Mid/Guard- 23rd (4.39 ypc)

Right Tackle- 2nd (2.72 ypc)

Right End- 21st (4.54 ypc)

Does Mario Williams play LDE (across from the right tackle)?

Mario normally plays DRE on run downs and DLE in obvious passing situations.

 

[-OZ-]

Caught something on sports radio 610 to the effect that if you look at all the teams in the league and looked at how productive teams are running left or right against each team, Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye are the hardest two players on the D-line to run against this year.

Any place we can see stats like this?

I have seen stats for an individual RB going left or right, but not formulated based on what a team's defense did left or right. Football Outsiders might have a data set that would work, not sure. I wish I'd heard more of the broadcast, as the way they said it made it sound like something they'd discussed in more detail earlier in the show and were just referring back to.

Yup, Football Outsiders has the goods.Houston's ranks defending runs in each direction:

Left End- 23rd (4.71 ypc)

Left Tackle- 26th (4.70 ypc)

Mid/Guard- 23rd (4.39 ypc)

Right Tackle- 2nd (2.72 ypc)

Right End- 21st (4.54 ypc)

Does Mario Williams play LDE (across from the right tackle)?

Mario normally plays DRE on run downs and DLE in obvious passing situations.

I know Dre, but who the froc is Dle?

 

[BusterTBronco]

Bush is currently the 5th most productive RB this year in PPR formats. Only 3 points behind wonderboy Addai. He'll probably be top 3 by the end of the season.

 

[SSOG]

Caught something on sports radio 610 to the effect that if you look at all the teams in the league and looked at how productive teams are running left or right against each team, Mario Williams and Amobi Okoye are the hardest two players on the D-line to run against this year.

Any place we can see stats like this?

I have seen stats for an individual RB going left or right, but not formulated based on what a team's defense did left or right. Football Outsiders might have a data set that would work, not sure. I wish I'd heard more of the broadcast, as the way they said it made it sound like something they'd discussed in more detail earlier in the show and were just referring back to.

Yup, Football Outsiders has the goods.Houston's ranks defending runs in each direction:

Left End- 23rd (4.71 ypc)

Left Tackle- 26th (4.70 ypc)

Mid/Guard- 23rd (4.39 ypc)

Right Tackle- 2nd (2.72 ypc)

Right End- 21st (4.54 ypc)

Does Mario Williams play LDE (across from the right tackle)?

Mario normally plays DRE on run downs and DLE in obvious passing situations.

I know Dre, but who the froc is Dle?

Defensive Right End and Defensive Left End.

Bush is currently the 5th most productive RB this year in PPR formats. Only 3 points behind wonderboy Addai. He'll probably be top 3 by the end of the season.

Too bad the New Orleans Saints play real football instead of fantasy football. In real football, Bush has been pretty brutal, especially for the highest paid RB in the entire NFL.

 

[mrspree15]

Bush is currently the 5th most productive RB this year in PPR formats. Only 3 points behind wonderboy Addai. He'll probably be top 3 by the end of the season.

Too bad the New Orleans Saints play real football instead of fantasy football. In real football, Bush has been pretty brutal, especially for the highest paid RB in the entire NFL.

What I find particularly bad is his yards per catch. I'm willing to accept that he's not a conventional runningback so his running numbers won't be great. But to have so little production from his recieving is something else. He really needs to get it together from a real life football perspective. (And this is coming from a Bush owner in a PPR league, so I'm happy w/ all those meaningless catches.)

 

[SSOG]

To use Football Outsider's statistics again... FO has 47 RBs ranked on their success running the ball so far this year. Reggie Bush ranks 46th. Football Outsiders has 49 RBs ranked on their success receiving the ball so far this year. Reggie Bush ranks 24th. Basically, the nicest thing you can say about him is that he's perfectly average catching the ball. And again, not to put too fine a point on it, he's the highest paid RB in the NFL. Mario Williams might not be living up to his contract, but he's being paid like a top-5 or top-10 DE and he's performing like a top-20 DE. Reggie Bush is being paid like the #1 RB, and he's performing like the #30 RB or worse.

The New Orleans Saints average just 4.35 yards per attempt when throwing to Reggie Bush. Ouch.

 

[-OZ-]

Mario normally plays DRE on run downs and DLE in obvious passing situations.

I know Dre, but who the froc is Dle?

Defensive Right End and Defensive Left End.

got it, I was attempting to make a joke. We usually see it referred to as LDE and RDE.

 

[coolnerd]

Even looking past, Mario and Reggie, the early returns of the top of that draft are not as exciting as the names suggested two years ago. Again, it is early.

1Mario Williams DE North Carolina State Houston Texans

2 Reggie Bush RB USC New Orleans Saints

3 Vince Young QB Texas Tennessee Titans

4 D'Brickashaw Ferguson T Virginia New York Jets

5 A.J. Hawk OLB Ohio State Green Bay Packers

6 Vernon Davis TE Maryland San Francisco 49ers

7 Michael Huff SS Texas Oakland Raiders

8 Donte Whitner SS Ohio State Buffalo Bills

9 Ernie Sims OLB Florida State Detroit Lions

10 Matt Leinart QB USC Arizona Cardinals

11 Jay Cutler QB Vanderbilt Denver Broncos

12 Haloti Ngata DT Oregon Baltimore Ravens

13 Kamerion Wimbley OLB Florida State Cleveland Browns

14 Brodrick Bunkley DT Florida State Philadelphia Eagles

15 Tye Hill CB Clemson St. Louis Rams

16 Jason Allen DB Tennessee Miami Dolphins

17 Chad Greenway LB Iowa Minnesota Vikings

18 Bobby Carpenter LB Ohio State Dallas Cowboys

19 Antonio Cromartie CB Florida State San Diego Chargers

20 Tamba Hali DE Penn State Kansas City Chiefs

21 Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota New England Patriots

22 Manny Lawson OLB North Carolina State San Francisco 49ers

23 Davin Joseph G Oklahoma Tampa Bay Buccaneers

24 Johnathan Joseph CB South Carolina Cincinnati Bengals

25 Santonio Holmes WR Ohio State Pittsburgh Steelers

26 John McCargo DT North Carolina State Buffalo Bills

27 DeAngelo Williams RB Memphis Carolina Panthers

28 Marcedes Lewis TE UCLA Jacksonville Jaguars

29 Nick Mangold C Ohio State New York Jets

30 Joseph Addai RB Louisiana State Indianapolis Colts

31 Kelly Jennings CB Miami (Fla.) Seattle Seahawks

32 Mathias Kiwanuka DE Boston College New York Giants

 

[SSOG]

Mario normally plays DRE on run downs and DLE in obvious passing situations.

I know Dre, but who the froc is Dle?

Defensive Right End and Defensive Left End.

got it, I was attempting to make a joke. We usually see it referred to as LDE and RDE.

Ohhhhhh...

Even looking past, Mario and Reggie, the early returns of the top of that draft are not as exciting as the names suggested two years ago. Again, it is early. 1Mario Williams DE North Carolina State Houston Texans 2 Reggie Bush RB USC New Orleans Saints 3 Vince Young QB Texas Tennessee Titans 4 D'Brickashaw Ferguson T Virginia New York Jets 5 A.J. Hawk OLB Ohio State Green Bay Packers 6 Vernon Davis TE Maryland San Francisco 49ers 7 Michael Huff SS Texas Oakland Raiders 8 Donte Whitner SS Ohio State Buffalo Bills 9 Ernie Sims OLB Florida State Detroit Lions 10 Matt Leinart QB USC Arizona Cardinals 11 Jay Cutler QB Vanderbilt Denver Broncos 12 Haloti Ngata DT Oregon Baltimore Ravens 13 Kamerion Wimbley OLB Florida State Cleveland Browns 14 Brodrick Bunkley DT Florida State Philadelphia Eagles 15 Tye Hill CB Clemson St. Louis Rams 16 Jason Allen DB Tennessee Miami Dolphins 17 Chad Greenway LB Iowa Minnesota Vikings 18 Bobby Carpenter LB Ohio State Dallas Cowboys 19 Antonio Cromartie CB Florida State San Diego Chargers 20 Tamba Hali DE Penn State Kansas City Chiefs 21 Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota New England Patriots 22 Manny Lawson OLB North Carolina State San Francisco 49ers 23 Davin Joseph G Oklahoma Tampa Bay Buccaneers 24 Johnathan Joseph CB South Carolina Cincinnati Bengals 25 Santonio Holmes WR Ohio State Pittsburgh Steelers 26 John McCargo DT North Carolina State Buffalo Bills 27 DeAngelo Williams RB Memphis Carolina Panthers 28 Marcedes Lewis TE UCLA Jacksonville Jaguars 29 Nick Mangold C Ohio State New York Jets 30 Joseph Addai RB Louisiana State Indianapolis Colts 31 Kelly Jennings CB Miami (Fla.) Seattle Seahawks 32 Mathias Kiwanuka DE Boston College New York Giants

This is why high draft picks are such a tempting liability. The names are all sexy, but the production usually isn't enough better to warrent the price increase. Looking at the top 10 picks, I don't think a single one is justifying his top-10 contract. Heck, even if you extend that to the top-20, Cutler and Ngata have both been worthwhile, but it's hard to get that excited about anyone else. I'd rather have 2 late firsts/early 2nds than a single top-10 pick (pick value chart be damned).

 

[The Jacket]

This is why high draft picks are such a tempting liability. The names are all sexy, but the production usually isn't enough better to warrent the price increase. Looking at the top 10 picks, I don't think a single one is justifying his top-10 contract. Heck, even if you extend that to the top-20, Cutler and Ngata have both been worthwhile, but it's hard to get that excited about anyone else. I'd rather have 2 late firsts/early 2nds than a single top-10 pick (pick value chart be damned).

Such a homer.If Jay Cutler has been 'worth' the No. 11 overall pick, Tamba Hali and Kamerion Wimbley have absolutely been worth their pick.

 

[Gnat Berries]

This is why high draft picks are such a tempting liability. The names are all sexy, but the production usually isn't enough better to warrent the price increase. Looking at the top 10 picks, I don't think a single one is justifying his top-10 contract. Heck, even if you extend that to the top-20, Cutler and Ngata have both been worthwhile, but it's hard to get that excited about anyone else. I'd rather have 2 late firsts/early 2nds than a single top-10 pick (pick value chart be damned).

Ernie Sims has been good at #9. Hawk has also been solid, just less visible because he's overshadowed by the rest of his defense.

 

[ChampBailey24]

This is why high draft picks are such a tempting liability. The names are all sexy, but the production usually isn't enough better to warrent the price increase. Looking at the top 10 picks, I don't think a single one is justifying his top-10 contract. Heck, even if you extend that to the top-20, Cutler and Ngata have both been worthwhile, but it's hard to get that excited about anyone else. I'd rather have 2 late firsts/early 2nds than a single top-10 pick (pick value chart be damned).

Such a homer.If Jay Cutler has been 'worth' the No. 11 overall pick, Tamba Hali and Kamerion Wimbley have absolutely been worth their pick.

Same for Ernie Sims and Donte Whitner. Sims is a Pro Bowl LB and Whitner looks like a very solid safety.

 

[SSOG]

This is why high draft picks are such a tempting liability. The names are all sexy, but the production usually isn't enough better to warrent the price increase. Looking at the top 10 picks, I don't think a single one is justifying his top-10 contract. Heck, even if you extend that to the top-20, Cutler and Ngata have both been worthwhile, but it's hard to get that excited about anyone else. I'd rather have 2 late firsts/early 2nds than a single top-10 pick (pick value chart be damned).

Such a homer.If Jay Cutler has been 'worth' the No. 11 overall pick, Tamba Hali and Kamerion Wimbley have absolutely been worth their pick.

Mea culpa on both. I missed Hali because he was 20th on the list, but he's definitely a gamer. As for Wimbley, I just don't watch enough Browns games to say.

This is why high draft picks are such a tempting liability. The names are all sexy, but the production usually isn't enough better to warrent the price increase. Looking at the top 10 picks, I don't think a single one is justifying his top-10 contract. Heck, even if you extend that to the top-20, Cutler and Ngata have both been worthwhile, but it's hard to get that excited about anyone else. I'd rather have 2 late firsts/early 2nds than a single top-10 pick (pick value chart be damned).

Such a homer.If Jay Cutler has been 'worth' the No. 11 overall pick, Tamba Hali and Kamerion Wimbley have absolutely been worth their pick.

Same for Ernie Sims and Donte Whitner. Sims is a Pro Bowl LB and Whitner looks like a very solid safety.

For Sims I'll make the same plead I made with Cleveland- I just don't watch enough Detroit games to say. As for Whitner... I deliberately left him off. I like Whitner, and I love how Marv Levy was vindicated after being lambasted for "reaching" on him, but you have it right- Whitner is a very solid safety. Very solid safeties are not worth top-10 picks, let alone top-10 contracts. Safeties are just too fungible of a position, like RB- just notice the salaries of average safeties and compare it to players at other positions. Unless you're Ed Reed or Troy Polamalu, you're not worth top-10 pick money. For an example of a top-10 safety who lived up to the pick, see Sean Taylor.

 

[Gnat Berries]

I'd hold off judgment on Whitner until the Bills defense gets healthy and comes together. Right now they play as well as they can with a slew of starters on IR.

Wait until next year. The SS is a crucial position in Jauron's cover two. When his D gets healthy, I expect Whitner to be similar to Mike Brown and Jon Lynch.

 

[Buckna]

Funny, as I click on this thread Mario sacks and forces a fumble on Derek Anderson.

I'll say the same thing I said in countless other threads, still way too early to tell either way. That being said, it does seem like VY & Bush are having sophomore slumps and Mario is the one showing solid improvement. Hopefully Mario keeps it up.

 

[SSOG]

I'd hold off judgment on Whitner until the Bills defense gets healthy and comes together. Right now they play as well as they can with a slew of starters on IR.Wait until next year. The SS is a crucial position in Jauron's cover two. When his D gets healthy, I expect Whitner to be similar to Mike Brown and Jon Lynch.

It's definitely too early to pass judgement on any of these players. I was just saying, to this point, very few of the top picks are justifying their contracts. Teams that expect their draft picks to contribute early often have unrealistic expectations.

 

[-OZ-]

I'd hold off judgment on Whitner until the Bills defense gets healthy and comes together. Right now they play as well as they can with a slew of starters on IR.Wait until next year. The SS is a crucial position in Jauron's cover two. When his D gets healthy, I expect Whitner to be similar to Mike Brown and Jon Lynch.

It's definitely too early to pass judgement on any of these players. I was just saying, to this point, very few of the top picks are justifying their contracts. Teams that expect their draft picks to contribute early often have unrealistic expectations.

what is your recommendation then?Don't draft? Trade for a veteran? Pull a "Minnesota"?In FF, it's often wise to trade your picks, but in the NFL what are you going to get for a 1st? Perhaps Randy Moss or Welker, but there aren't too many of those players being shopped for picks. Usually, it's a backup QB made available, or a 30 year old RB.

 

[SSOG]

I'd hold off judgment on Whitner until the Bills defense gets healthy and comes together. Right now they play as well as they can with a slew of starters on IR.Wait until next year. The SS is a crucial position in Jauron's cover two. When his D gets healthy, I expect Whitner to be similar to Mike Brown and Jon Lynch.

It's definitely too early to pass judgement on any of these players. I was just saying, to this point, very few of the top picks are justifying their contracts. Teams that expect their draft picks to contribute early often have unrealistic expectations.

what is your recommendation then?Don't draft? Trade for a veteran? Pull a "Minnesota"?In FF, it's often wise to trade your picks, but in the NFL what are you going to get for a 1st? Perhaps Randy Moss or Welker, but there aren't too many of those players being shopped for picks. Usually, it's a backup QB made available, or a 30 year old RB.

You have to build through the draft. I'm not disparaging the draft, I'm just disparaging very high draft picks. Outside of the top 15 or so, the draft is the best way to build long-term talent. Teams that draft well do well. The problem is that salaries inside the top 15 or so (and especially in the top 5) are so disproportionately large compared to what you're getting. Anyone drafted in the top 5 is instantly among the highest paid players at his position, and by the time he's developed and is living up to his contract (if he ever does), his contract is up.If it were up to me, I would trade my very high draft picks every year, even if I didn't get fair value on the pick value chart. If I had a top-10 pick, I'd gladly send it packing in exchange for a pair of second rounders- or even better, a second rounder this year and a first rounder next.

 

[coolnerd]

I'd hold off judgment on Whitner until the Bills defense gets healthy and comes together. Right now they play as well as they can with a slew of starters on IR.Wait until next year. The SS is a crucial position in Jauron's cover two. When his D gets healthy, I expect Whitner to be similar to Mike Brown and Jon Lynch.

It's definitely too early to pass judgement on any of these players. I was just saying, to this point, very few of the top picks are justifying their contracts. Teams that expect their draft picks to contribute early often have unrealistic expectations.

what is your recommendation then?Don't draft? Trade for a veteran? Pull a "Minnesota"?In FF, it's often wise to trade your picks, but in the NFL what are you going to get for a 1st? Perhaps Randy Moss or Welker, but there aren't too many of those players being shopped for picks. Usually, it's a backup QB made available, or a 30 year old RB.

You have to build through the draft. I'm not disparaging the draft, I'm just disparaging very high draft picks. Outside of the top 15 or so, the draft is the best way to build long-term talent. Teams that draft well do well. The problem is that salaries inside the top 15 or so (and especially in the top 5) are so disproportionately large compared to what you're getting. Anyone drafted in the top 5 is instantly among the highest paid players at his position, and by the time he's developed and is living up to his contract (if he ever does), his contract is up.If it were up to me, I would trade my very high draft picks every year, even if I didn't get fair value on the pick value chart. If I had a top-10 pick, I'd gladly send it packing in exchange for a pair of second rounders- or even better, a second rounder this year and a first rounder next.

I think you have done a good job of explaining the value aspect of the top 10 picks. While some of the posters are correct about Sims, Hawk or Whitner being solid, they are being paid to be outstanding and outstanding early. Most followers of the draft understand this and that's why every fan thinks his team should trade down. Even thought this is correct, no team should ever trade up or at least not at current value chart rates. The chart was devised when the gap was not as severe between the top and middle portions of the first round. Until a few teams violate the current chart rendering it useless, then with only a rare exception, a fan's favorite team is stuck with that top 5 and probably top 10 pick. The hope then is that the team gets it right or gets lucky.