Martyball no more? (1 Viewer)

[Saints-Man]

I don't think Norv has really done anything to warrant being fired (I mean in terms of actual results- I still think he's a bad coach and he should be fired at any given moment for that reason alone). Just because Shotty got fired when his results didn't warrant it doesn't mean the Chargers should suddenly fire EVERY coach whose results don't warrant it.

As for Norv being a good coach or not... I think the attitudes of the other AFC West fans really closes the book on this discussion. No matter how Chargers fans feel, the fact that the Raiders, Chiefs, and Broncos fans are pretty much UNANIMOUSLY glad that Norv is in charge in San Diego has to be pretty telling.

With all due respect, SSOG, almost any franchise(except possibly Pittsburgh and Dallas - their fans seem to have higher standards) would love three straight division titles and 3-3 record in the playoffs. I know it is not the Super Bowl, but it is not like Norv Turner is a bad coach.Obviously, none of the other teams in the AFC West have won division titles in that time frame.

I think the Raiders, Chiefs and Broncos would love to have Norv Turner as the coach if he produced these results.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I think the Raiders, Chiefs and Broncos would love to have Norv Turner as the coach if he produced these results.

Haven't we all seen how mediocre Turner is coaching a team with the talent level of the Raiders? I know some will say, "No one succeeds in Oakland these days," but that just makes the point even stronger; Turner is not a difference maker. He is a good offensive coach, but an average at best head coach. On the flip side, give the Chargers of the past three years the coach the Broncos had for two of the last three years (Mike Shanahan) and the Chargers likely have a Super Bowl win to their credit.

 

[Saints-Man]

I think the Raiders, Chiefs and Broncos would love to have Norv Turner as the coach if he produced these results.

Haven't we all seen how mediocre Turner is coaching a team with the talent level of the Raiders? I know some will say, "No one succeeds in Oakland these days," but that just makes the point even stronger; Turner is not a difference maker. He is a good offensive coach, but an average at best head coach. On the flip side, give the Chargers of the past three years the coach the Broncos had for two of the last three years (Mike Shanahan) and the Chargers likely have a Super Bowl win to their credit.

The same Shanahan whose Broncos lost the last 3 games to lose out on the divisional title and the playoffs a year or two ago?You are thinking of the late 90's Shanahan.

 

[SSOG]

The same Shanahan whose Broncos lost the last 3 games to lose out on the divisional title and the playoffs a year or two ago?You are thinking of the late 90's Shanahan.

No, the same Shanahan whose Broncos went 13-3 and made the AFCCG in 2005 with Jake Plummer as his starting QB and a tailback tandem of Anderson/Bell. There's no difference between 1998 Shanahan and 2008 Shanahan. One three game losing streak does not a career define, especially when the Broncos were playing over their heads to get to 8-5 in the first place.

 

[massraider]

I don't think Norv has really done anything to warrant being fired (I mean in terms of actual results- I still think he's a bad coach and he should be fired at any given moment for that reason alone). Just because Shotty got fired when his results didn't warrant it doesn't mean the Chargers should suddenly fire EVERY coach whose results don't warrant it.

As for Norv being a good coach or not... I think the attitudes of the other AFC West fans really closes the book on this discussion. No matter how Chargers fans feel, the fact that the Raiders, Chiefs, and Broncos fans are pretty much UNANIMOUSLY glad that Norv is in charge in San Diego has to be pretty telling.

With all due respect, SSOG, almost any franchise(except possibly Pittsburgh and Dallas - their fans seem to have higher standards) would love three straight division titles and 3-3 record in the playoffs. I know it is not the Super Bowl, but it is not like Norv Turner is a bad coach.Obviously, none of the other teams in the AFC West have won division titles in that time frame.

I think the Raiders, Chiefs and Broncos would love to have Norv Turner as the coach if he produced these results.

If he was handed those ingredients, I expect nothing less.it was said earlier, he was brought in to do what Marty couldn't do, and he hasn't done it. If Marty was having them underachieve, then what has Norv done?

 

[Polar Dude]

Okay then, is A.J. Smith happy with Turner's inability to get this alleged super talented team to the Super Bowl for three straight seasons now?

Happy? Why should he be? Reasonably satisfied? He seems to be since he just approved Spanos' plan to give Norv an extension.

And if the team isn't talented as it used to be, then that is Smith's fault, right?

I would imagine that he saddles most of the blame. I guess he also takes most of the credit for assembling the talent that has caused them to win so many games (second most in their history this past year).

So is Smith holding himself accountable for failing to sustain the talent level, or will he hold Turner accountable for failing to get this team full of talent over the top? it appears he is doing neither.

I guess you'll need to explain this. How would you expect him to discipline himself for taking a step back in talent? How do most GMs handle this?Also, what are your expectations for AJ and the Chargers? Should every season where they don't win 14 reg. season games and/or the Super Bowl be considered failures?

 

[Polar Dude]

On the flip side, give the Chargers of the past three years the coach the Broncos had for two of the last three years (Mike Shanahan) and the Chargers likely have a Super Bowl win to their credit.

It's possible, but I think you are oversimplifying the equation. It's not Players + Coach = Super Bowl Champs. They'd still have to get by some really good Colts, Patriots, and Steelers teams to even get there. Even Tiger doesn't win every tournament, and there are a lot more moving parts in a football game than a golf tournament.

 

[Ghost Rider]

The same Shanahan whose Broncos lost the last 3 games to lose out on the divisional title and the playoffs a year or two ago?You are thinking of the late 90's Shanahan.

No, the same Shanahan whose Broncos went 13-3 and made the AFCCG in 2005 with Jake Plummer as his starting QB and a tailback tandem of Anderson/Bell. There's no difference between 1998 Shanahan and 2008 Shanahan. One three game losing streak does not a career define, especially when the Broncos were playing over their heads to get to 8-5 in the first place.

Also, what are your expectations for AJ and the Chargers? Should every season where they don't win 14 reg. season games and/or the Super Bowl be considered failures?

When you fire a coach who had just went 14-2, I think it is more than reasonable to expect the coach you bring in to take the team to the next level. Okay, Turner has won playoff games, which Schottenheimer never did there, but the team has taken steps backward with Turner. 2 playoff wins in '07, to 1 playoff win in '08, to 0 playoff wins in '09. Plus, this is a team that has many have said is on the verge of winning a Super Bowl for four years, yet they can't even get to a single one. I just wonder if Chargers fans, in their heads and hearts, really think this team can win a Super Bowl with Norv Turner as the head coach.

It's possible, but I think you are oversimplifying the equation. It's not Players + Coach = Super Bowl Champs. They'd still have to get by some really good Colts, Patriots, and Steelers teams to even get there.

Or this year, get by a 9-7 Jets team with a rookie QB.

 

[Polar Dude]

When you fire a coach who had just went 14-2, I think it is more than reasonable to expect the coach you bring in to take the team to the next level.

I think you ought to go back and read this thread. Marty didn't get fired because AJ thought his team could do better than 14-2.

 

[Ghost Rider]

When you fire a coach who had just went 14-2, I think it is more than reasonable to expect the coach you bring in to take the team to the next level.

I think you ought to go back and read this thread. Marty didn't get fired because AJ thought his team could do better than 14-2.

I know that, but when you have a team as talented as everyone says the Chargers are, shouldn't the Super Bowl be a realistic expectation? Or is Smith happy having an average coach making the playoffs with a super talented team, and averaging a playoff win a year? I mean, to hell with getting a coach who can get us to the Super Bowl...let's be the NFL version of the Phoenix Suns!Don't get me wrong, as a Broncos fan, it makes me chuckle, but if I were a Chargers fan, I would be pulling my hair out, seeing their best shots wasted in years with a head coach like Norv. By the time they actually get a good head coach, their window could very well be shut.

 

[Polar Dude]

When you fire a coach who had just went 14-2, I think it is more than reasonable to expect the coach you bring in to take the team to the next level.

I think you ought to go back and read this thread. Marty didn't get fired because AJ thought his team could do better than 14-2.

I know that, but when you have a team as talented as everyone says the Chargers are, shouldn't the Super Bowl be a realistic expectation? Or is Smith happy having an average coach making the playoffs with a super talented team, and averaging a playoff win a year? I mean, to hell with getting a coach who can get us to the Super Bowl...let's be the NFL version of the Phoenix Suns!

The Super Bowl is without question a realistic expectation for the Chargers. But the only way that you can say that they have no excuse to not win it is if you say they are vastly superior to every other team, and they aren't. We can't look at just one team in isolation and say "anything short of a Super Bowl win is shameful" because to do that is ignoring everything that goes into winning a game, especially the opponent.Do you believe that there is any manager out to achieve nothing more than making the playoffs or is this just something you attribute to AJ? Do you think there is any possibility that AJ knows this team a little bit better than you do and feels that even if Norv isn't the perfect coach, he may be better for this team than any of the other options out there right now?

 

[Polar Dude]

I mean, to hell with getting a coach who can get us to the Super Bowl...let's be the NFL version of the Phoenix Suns!Don't get me wrong, as a Broncos fan, it makes me chuckle, but if I were a Chargers fan, I would be pulling my hair out, seeing their best shots wasted in years with a head coach like Norv. By the time they actually get a good head coach, their window could very well be shut.

Okay, you are the GM of the Chargers as of Sunday of last week. Tomlinson is clearly not the runner he once was and the offensive line had to be overhauled due to injuries. Injuries also claimed your all-pro NT, the one position that makes your entire defense tick. You knew you had some weaknesses at safety, but you got as much production out of that position as you could reasonably expect. Despite all of this your team won its final eleven games to finish with a 13-3 record and a first-round bye. The playoff game was cataclysmic though and was characterized by bone-headed decisions by way too many players. They seemed panicky and ill-prepared. There were also reports that many players went out partying until the wee hours just two days prior to the game, and your #1 WR was arrested on his way to the game.I'm assuming that you think AJ is a fool not to fire Norv. So who is the guy that is out there that is going to undeniably coach this team to the Super Bowl year after year and win it time and again?

 

[Ghost Rider]

The Super Bowl is without question a realistic expectation for the Chargers. But the only way that you can say that they have no excuse to not win it is if you say they are vastly superior to every other team, and they aren't. We can't look at just one team in isolation and say "anything short of a Super Bowl win is shameful" because to do that is ignoring everything that goes into winning a game, especially the opponent.Do you believe that there is any manager out to achieve nothing more than making the playoffs or is this just something you attribute to AJ? Do you think there is any possibility that AJ knows this team a little bit better than you do and feels that even if Norv isn't the perfect coach, he may be better for this team than any of the other options out there right now?

I agree with the first paragraph, but in regards to the second, really? Do you honestly think there are no better options out there right now? No one out there is a better option than Norv Turner? And don't ask me; ask A.J. Smith. He is the one getting paid big bucks who is supposed to figure these things out.

The playoff game was cataclysmic though and was characterized by bone-headed decisions by way too many players. They seemed panicky and ill-prepared. There were also reports that many players went out partying until the wee hours just two days prior to the game, and your #1 WR was arrested on his way to the game.

The players were out partying? Okay, again, that is on the head coach. No, you can't be the babysitter of every player, but a great head coach knows how to get his team ready for a playoff game, and that includes being smart and preaching what to do and what not to do in the days leading up to a game. If a bunch of players were out partying too late two nights before a playoff game, then the head coach did a poor job of being a leader and getting them ready for the game. Notice how you never hear that happening to the coaches who are widely considered the best or among the best.

I'm assuming that you think AJ is a fool not to fire Norv. So who is the guy that is out there that is going to undeniably coach this team to the Super Bowl year after year and win it time and again?

Where did I say the Chargers should win the Super Bowl every year, like you are inferring there? I never said that. Getting to the Super Bowl every year is impossible, but with the talent the Chargers have had, to have not even made it once? That is on the coaching staff. The Chargers have had enough talent to continue winning games under Norv in the regular season, but this team needs a coach who can put them over the top IN THE PLAYOFFS. If a bunch of players are going off to party two nights before a playoff game, they probably need a hard-nosed disciplinarian who already has a solid rep as a head coach, not a guy like Turner, who has never struck me as being that kind of coach. I ask again: Do you really think the Chargers can win a Super Bowl with Norv Turner as their head coach?

 

[Polar Dude]

The playoff game was cataclysmic though and was characterized by bone-headed decisions by way too many players. They seemed panicky and ill-prepared. There were also reports that many players went out partying until the wee hours just two days prior to the game, and your #1 WR was arrested on his way to the game.

The players were out partying? Okay, again, that is on the head coach. No, you can't be the babysitter of every player, but a great head coach knows how to get his team ready for a playoff game, and that includes being smart and preaching what to do and what not to do in the days leading up to a game. If a bunch of players were out partying too late two nights before a playoff game, then the head coach did a poor job of being a leader and getting them ready for the game. Notice how you never hear that happening to the coaches who are widely considered the best or among the best.

I agree with you. I was trying to offer a balanced look at what occurred this year - not because I was trying to influence your opinion, but just so that you had all the relevant information. Crazy of me, huh?

 

[Polar Dude]

I ask again: Do you really think the Chargers can win a Super Bowl with Norv Turner as their head coach?

Yes, I truly believe they can win a Super Bowl with Norv as the head coach. Just because he hasn't, doesn't mean he can't. How many years and how many good teams did Cower have before he finally won one? Same goes for Dungy. Same goes for a great number of coaches. What empirical proof do you have that he cannot win it?I ask again: Do you think there is any possibility that AJ knows this team a little bit better than you do and feels that even if Norv isn't the perfect coach, he may be better for this team than any of the other options out there right now? So who is the guy that is out there that is going to undeniably coach this team to a win in the Super Bowl?

 

[Ghost Rider]

I agree with you. I was trying to offer a balanced look at what occurred this year - not because I was trying to influence your opinion, but just so that you had all the relevant information. Crazy of me, huh?

Not really.

I ask again: Do you really think the Chargers can win a Super Bowl with Norv Turner as their head coach?

Yes, I truly believe they can win a Super Bowl with Norv as the head coach. Just because he hasn't, doesn't mean he can't. How many years and how many good teams did Cower have before he finally won one? Same goes for Dungy. Same goes for a great number of coaches. What empirical proof do you have that he cannot win it?

Norv Turner is not in the same ballpark...wait, check that...not in the same city as Cowher or even Dungy when it comes to great coaching. When talking about best coaches of the last 20 years, Cowher is possibly top 3, no worse than top 5; Dungy would be top 10; Turner wouldn't make the top 50. And empirical proof? Are you serious? This is not an experiment that can be run to empirically prove something. But if you want, I can point out the fact that in 12 seasons as a head coach, Norv Turner has an under .500 record as a head coach and a whopping 4 playoff wins. No, that doesn't empirically prove that he CANNOT win a Super Bowl, but I am pretty confident that he will never win one as an NFL head coach. He simply is not a good head coach, and the facts, his record, quite clearly demonstrate that.

I ask again: Do you think there is any possibility that AJ knows this team a little bit better than you do and feels that even if Norv isn't the perfect coach, he may be better for this team than any of the other options out there right now?

He might feel that way, but no GM is right 100% of the time. In this instance, I think he is dead wrong.

So who is the guy that is out there that is going to undeniably coach this team to a win in the Super Bowl?

Again, that is not for me to figure out. I could name a bunch of coaches whom the Chargers would stand a better chance of winning a Super Bowl under as opposed to Turner, but that doesn't mean Smith is gonna run out and hire them.

 

[Polar Dude]

He simply is not a good head coach, and the facts, his record, quite clearly demonstrate that.

The only record that matters when talking about Norv as the coach of the Chargers is 32-16/3-3. Compare that to any of the best coaches in the league over the last three years, and I am guessing the "facts" demonstrate he compares pretty favorably.

 

[Ghost Rider]

He simply is not a good head coach, and the facts, his record, quite clearly demonstrate that.

The only record that matters when talking about Norv as the coach of the Chargers is 32-16/3-3. Compare that to any of the best coaches in the league over the last three years, and I am guessing the "facts" demonstrate he compares pretty favorably.

Cherry-picking is never a good thing. If we are going by just the last three years, is Wade Phillips one of the best coaches in the league, too? I mean, he is 33-15 with one playoff win in the last three years, so I guess he compares favorably, too, right? You have to look at Turner's entire coaching history to determine how good of a coach he is or isn't. I mean, are we going to say that Norv compares favorably to Bill Belichick because over the last three years, Norv only has four less regular season wins, but one more playoff win? Really? Like has been said, given the talent on this Chargers team, there are many coaches who could step in and put up a good record. But we will likely never agree on this, so this is fine. If you are happy having your team coached by Norv Turner, enjoy your annual January disappointments.

 

[Polar Dude]

You have to look at Turner's entire coaching history to determine how good of a coach he is or isn't.

Really? There is absolutely no chance that he has learned and improved from past experiences? When your boss evaluates you at your job, does he tell you that you can't have a promotion because of something that you did eleven years ago?

Like has been said, given the talent on this Chargers team, there are many coaches who could step in and put up a good record.

And yet, even though I have asked you numerous times, you have yet to provide the name of one coach who is currently available that you think could produce better results. Doesn't that seem a bit strange?

If you are happy having your team coached by Norv Turner, enjoy your annual January disappointments.

You might want to link me to where I, or any other Chargers fan, has said we are happy with anything short of a Super Bowl. However, realistic expectations and a close view of what is going on in the organization have shown many of us that we could could probably do much worse than Norv. We also are well aware that this organization experienced a higher frequency of disappointments prior to Norv and prior to AJ.And after all, January disappointments sure beat the heck out of December disappointments. Right, Bronco fans?

 

[Tau837]

And if the team isn't talented as it used to be, then that is Smith's fault, right? So is Smith holding himself accountable for failing to sustain the talent level, or will he hold Turner accountable for failing to get this team full of talent over the top? it appears he is doing neither.

Yes, IMO it's Smith's fault that the talent quality on the roster has declined. He has allowed the RB, OL, DL, LB, and DB positions to become problems to varying degrees. The only positions that don't have issues are QB, WR, and TE IMO.Is Smith holding himself accountable? Or, more likely, is ownership holding him accountable? I don't know. I hope so.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

The Raiders and Chiefs have been garbage the last three seasons and the Broncos dumped their long-time head coach. Let's say the Chargers and Redskins swapped divisions over the last three seasons...how confident would you be in Norv Turner led team?

If you're trying to argue that Marty 14-2 > Norv 13-3, this is not the argument to make. The Chargers' 2006 schedule was way easier than the 2009 schedule.

 

[Tau837]

On the flip side, give the Chargers of the past three years the coach the Broncos had for two of the last three years (Mike Shanahan) and the Chargers likely have a Super Bowl win to their credit.

Based on what? The Chargers have had one of the best offenses under Turner. It has been their defense that has slipped since Turner took over. To my knowledge, Shanahan isn't known for doing much with defense as a head coach. Is that what you're saying, that the defense wouldn't have slipped under Shanahan? I don't see it.

 

[Tau837]

it was said earlier, he was brought in to do what Marty couldn't do, and he hasn't done it. If Marty was having them underachieve, then what has Norv done?

He has done what Marty couldn't do. He has won multiple playoff games when Marty couldn't even win one.

 

[Statorama]

it was said earlier, he was brought in to do what Marty couldn't do, and he hasn't done it. If Marty was having them underachieve, then what has Norv done?

He has done what Marty couldn't do. He has won multiple playoff games when Marty couldn't even win one.

..and that was WITH an "in his prime" LT.

 

[Tau837]

when you have a team as talented as everyone says the Chargers are, shouldn't the Super Bowl be a realistic expectation? Or is Smith happy having an average coach making the playoffs with a super talented team, and averaging a playoff win a year?

Why do you just keep saying the same thing over and over? Some fans have answered you, but you ignore the answers and just keep repeating yourself.

 

[Ghost Rider]

You have to look at Turner's entire coaching history to determine how good of a coach he is or isn't.

Really? There is absolutely no chance that he has learned and improved from past experiences? When your boss evaluates you at your job, does he tell you that you can't have a promotion because of something that you did eleven years ago?

There are not promotions he has been getting. Being the head coach of multiple teams are lateral movements essentially (his years as OC in between notwithstanding). It's apples and oranges. Yes, it is possible he learned from his previous mistakes, but I don't see it. Again, if I were a Chargers fan, I would be pulling my hair out, knowing this team is so close, yet sticking with a coach like Turner.

Like has been said, given the talent on this Chargers team, there are many coaches who could step in and put up a good record.

And yet, even though I have asked you numerous times, you have yet to provide the name of one coach who is currently available that you think could produce better results. Doesn't that seem a bit strange?

Okay then: Bill CowherJon GrudenTony DungyShall I go on? And don't give me that "They are all out of coaching and not really available at the moment" line, please. I think we know that they would all come back to coaching, given the right offer and situation.

And after all, January disappointments sure beat the heck out of December disappointments. Right, Bronco fans?

Perhaps, but like they say, the further you get in the playoffs and lose, the deeper the cut. Besides, we Broncos fans have at least tasted the fruits of championship glory, so we know what the feeling is like.

 

[Tau837]

I ask again: Do you really think the Chargers can win a Super Bowl with Norv Turner as their head coach?

I answer again: Yes. Does that mean you'll stop now?

 

[Polar Dude]

Besides, we Broncos fans have at least tasted the fruits of championship glory, so we know what the feeling is like.

I guess that's the difference in our attitudes and opinions then. I was as bitter and negative as you when my team wasn't winning. Now the only thing that you have to feel fondly about is a distant memory.

 

[Tau837]

And after all, January disappointments sure beat the heck out of December disappointments. Right, Bronco fans?

 

[Ghost Rider]

I ask again: Do you really think the Chargers can win a Super Bowl with Norv Turner as their head coach?

I answer again: Yes. Does that mean you'll stop now?

I believe that question was specifically directed that time at Polar Dude, k? If your answer is affirmative, too, then okay. I think you are all fooling yourselves, but I digress. Carry on.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I ask again: Do you really think the Chargers can win a Super Bowl with Norv Turner as their head coach?

I answer again: Yes. Does that mean you'll stop now?

Put me down for a yes as well.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Besides, we Broncos fans have at least tasted the fruits of championship glory, so we know what the feeling is like.

I guess that's the difference in our attitudes and opinions then. I was as bitter and negative as you when my team wasn't winning. Now the only thing that you have to feel fondly about is a distant memory.

Having that ### clown as the Broncos current head coach doesn't help, but I am not bitter or negative. Really. I actually rooted for the Chargers last week (mostly because I almost never root for NY teams, except when they go against teams I really hate). The Chargers are bizarre for me in that I HATE losing to them when the Broncos play them, but when they play other teams, they don't bother me at all. It's weird. As for the distant memory, it was only a little over a decade ago, so it isn't that distant.

 

[Polar Dude]

Again, if I were a Chargers fan, I would be pulling my hair out, knowing this team is so close, yet sticking with a coach like Turner.

I don't buy this. The Broncos just came off a ten-year span with a team that was good enough to go to the Super Bowl and kept coming up short (sometimes not even making the playoffs, and sometimes not even posting a winning record), and you just credited the guy who coached that team to such a string of disappointments as a top-notch coach. How much hair did you lose in that timespan?

 

[Ghost Rider]

Again, if I were a Chargers fan, I would be pulling my hair out, knowing this team is so close, yet sticking with a coach like Turner.

I don't buy this. The Broncos just came off a ten-year span with a team that was good enough to go to the Super Bowl and kept coming up short (sometimes not even making the playoffs, and sometimes not even posting a winning record), and you just credited the guy who coached that team to such a string of disappointments as a top-notch coach. How much hair did you lose in that timespan?

It is silly to refer to a two-time Super Bowl-winning coach who has a winning percentage of .598 in 16 seasons as top notch? And you have a bad memory if you think most of the Broncos teams this decade were considered "good enough to win a Super Bowl." I don't remember one season where, heading into the season, a lot of so-called experts were picking them as a SB favorite, or even an AFC favorite, unlike the Chargers, who have been called such the last three seasons by many.Fortunately for me, my hair is still in tact, and I didn't pull any out.

 

[Polar Dude]

Fortunately for me, my hair is still in tact, and I didn't pull any out.

Good. Now you know why most Chargers fans haven't either.

 

[SSOG]

I ask again: Do you really think the Chargers can win a Super Bowl with Norv Turner as their head coach?

Yes, I truly believe they can win a Super Bowl with Norv as the head coach. Just because he hasn't, doesn't mean he can't. How many years and how many good teams did Cower have before he finally won one? Same goes for Dungy. Same goes for a great number of coaches. What empirical proof do you have that he cannot win it?

So, what you're saying is that a good coach could possibly turn things around and succeed in the postseason, especially if, like Dungy and Cowher, he had a long track record of producing good teams? And that just because he hasn't done it yet, that doesn't mean that he can't do it?

Okay then:

Bill Cowher

Jon Gruden

Tony Dungy

Shall I go on?

You forgot Marty Schottenheimer.

 

[Polar Dude]

You forgot Marty Schottenheimer.

And you forgot why Marty got the boot. (It wasn't his postseason performance.)I happen to think that Marty could have had success with this team. He chose a path that would have made that nearly impossible though, just because he decided to take out his struggles with AJ on the franchise.

 

[trader jake]

I ask again: Do you really think the Chargers can win a Super Bowl with Norv Turner as their head coach?

I answer again: Yes. Does that mean you'll stop now?

Put me down for a yes as well.

Oof.No team will ever win a Super Bowl with Norv Turner as their head coach. He's the JaMarcus Russell of head coaches. I thought A.J. Smith was one of the best general managers in the NFL until he hired him to be the head coach of his football team. That one decision makes me question him because that's the most important decision a GM has to make.

 

[SSOG]

Oof.No team will ever win a Super Bowl with Norv Turner as their head coach. He's the JaMarcus Russell of head coaches. I thought A.J. Smith was one of the best general managers in the NFL until he hired him to be the head coach of his football team. That one decision makes me question him because that's the most important decision a GM has to make.

I wouldn't call him the Jamarcus Russell of head coaches. I think he's more the Bubby Brister of head coaches.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I ask again: Do you really think the Chargers can win a Super Bowl with Norv Turner as their head coach?

I answer again: Yes. Does that mean you'll stop now?

Put me down for a yes as well.

Oof.No team will ever win a Super Bowl with Norv Turner as their head coach. He's the JaMarcus Russell of head coaches. I thought A.J. Smith was one of the best general managers in the NFL until he hired him to be the head coach of his football team. That one decision makes me question him because that's the most important decision a GM has to make.

The odds in Vegas sports books on the Chargers winning next year's Super Bowl will likely be around 12-1, at most.Is it your contention that, if the odds were truly accurate, they'd be closer to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000-1? (Assuming Norv remains the Chargers' head coach?)If not, how should one interpret your first sentence (not including the "Oof")?

 

[CalBear]

The odds in Vegas sports books on the Chargers winning next year's Super Bowl will likely be around 12-1, at most.Is it your contention that, if the odds were truly accurate, they'd be closer to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000-1? (Assuming Norv remains the Chargers' head coach?)

On talent alone, 12-1 might be about right. With Norv as coach, it's probably more like 50-1, which more or less means it won't happen.

 

[massraider]

it was said earlier, he was brought in to do what Marty couldn't do, and he hasn't done it. If Marty was having them underachieve, then what has Norv done?

He has done what Marty couldn't do. He has won multiple playoff games when Marty couldn't even win one.

Oh.Well. Congrats?

 

[trader jake]

Oof.No team will ever win a Super Bowl with Norv Turner as their head coach. He's the JaMarcus Russell of head coaches. I thought A.J. Smith was one of the best general managers in the NFL until he hired him to be the head coach of his football team. That one decision makes me question him because that's the most important decision a GM has to make.

I wouldn't call him the Jamarcus Russell of head coaches. I think he's more the Bubby Brister of head coaches.

Good call. Norv has notched three playoff wins in his three years in San Diego. Comparing him to JaMarcus Russell was a bit harsh.

The odds in Vegas sports books on the Chargers winning next year's Super Bowl will likely be around 12-1, at most.Is it your contention that, if the odds were truly accurate, they'd be closer to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000-1? (Assuming Norv remains the Chargers' head coach?)

On talent alone, 12-1 might be about right. With Norv as coach, it's probably more like 50-1, which more or less means it won't happen.

Exactly.Money wagered on a Norv Turner led team winning it all is money that may as well be flushed down the toilet.

 

[Tau837]

it was said earlier, he was brought in to do what Marty couldn't do, and he hasn't done it. If Marty was having them underachieve, then what has Norv done?

He has done what Marty couldn't do. He has won multiple playoff games when Marty couldn't even win one.

Oh.Well. Congrats?

Oh, I get it. As a Raiders fan, winning a few playoff games for the first time in several years wouldn't be a positive, would it? It's Super Bowl or bust, right? Got it.

 

[Wadsworth]

it was said earlier, he was brought in to do what Marty couldn't do, and he hasn't done it. If Marty was having them underachieve, then what has Norv done?

He has done what Marty couldn't do. He has won multiple playoff games when Marty couldn't even win one.

Oh.Well. Congrats?

Oh, I get it. As a Raiders fan, winning a few playoff games for the first time in several years wouldn't be a positive, would it? It's Super Bowl or bust, right? Got it.

As a Jags fan I look back fondly at the successful teams of the 90s and I am glad they won some play off games. But those fond memories are dwarfed by the enduring frustration of having a very talented team that could have at least gotten to a Super Bowl and missing the window. It's not that play off wins aren't nice. But when you've had an extremely talented team for years and haven't gotten it done those wins stop having much meaning. Winning play off games is a positive if the team is coming out of rebuilding. Not so much when the team is very close to losing it's HoF RB.

 

[massraider]

it was said earlier, he was brought in to do what Marty couldn't do, and he hasn't done it. If Marty was having them underachieve, then what has Norv done?

He has done what Marty couldn't do. He has won multiple playoff games when Marty couldn't even win one.

Oh.Well. Congrats?

Oh, I get it. As a Raiders fan, winning a few playoff games for the first time in several years wouldn't be a positive, would it? It's Super Bowl or bust, right? Got it.

Me being a Raider fan has nothing to do with it. Me being an observer of the NFL, my thought was:Marty was a bit snakebit in the playoffs, and I think his firing by San Diego was a mistake. In order for the Norv Turner move to pay off, SD would have to take the next step. As good as San Diego has been, the next step is the Super Bowl, not just being the next Warren Moon Oilers. I also understand that there was more than just the playoff failure that went into his firing, there was the whole thing with his brother. So it isn't as black and white as people have made it out to be, but the revisionist history is comical. Marty was a good coach, and his teams were motivated and played hard. As a Raider fan, I was happy when he left KC and SD.

 

[BoltBacker]

Marty was a bit snakebit in the playoffs, and I think his firing by San Diego was a mistake. In order for the Norv Turner move to pay off, SD would have to take the next step. As good as San Diego has been, the next step is the Super Bowl, not just being the next Warren Moon Oilers.

I think that's where the disconnect comes from most Charger fans. At least my opinion the next step from making the playoffs and losing the first playoff game every year isn't the SB or failure. The next step in my mind would be having success in the playoffs and getting deep into the playoffs(which Turner has already done). The next step AFTER THAT is SB or bust... and in that light I think this season was a failure in my eyes. But it's a failure based on the bar Turner had already set, it's not a failure based on the bar Marty set. That's a big distinction imo. Without that distinction I don't think Turner gets the extension.For the record I'm a big Marty fan. I think they are both good coaches and if he was interested in the BUF job and they passed on Marty that move is beyond stupid. The only concern I had at the moment of Marty's departure is the effect on the offense since Cam Cameron had just left before Marty did and Marty has a reputation of being very, very conservative on offense. Can you imagine if Rivers would have been handcuffed all season and SD's offense had revolved around Tomlinson and a cloud of dust? I guess I can understand if there are still people that think Marty didn't get a fair shake in SD, but it seems to me if Marty is interested in coaching and nobody in the NFL thinks Marty is a quality hire that's a much bigger slap in the face than anything that happened in SD imo. The BUF/CLE/DET/STL/SEA's of the world wouldn't be better off with Marty as their HC? REALLY? Marty may not have a proven track record in the playoffs but he certainly has a proven track record of turning laughing stocks into playoff caliber teams.

 

[BoltBacker]

Not so much when the team is very close to losing it's HoF RB.

I'm not so sure when the last time you saw a Charger game was... but just trust me on this, the Chargers have already lost their HOF RB.

 

[Gr00vus]

In order for the Norv Turner move to pay off, SD would have to take the next step.

The next step was winning a playoff game or games. They did that under Norv, so up to now it's been a good move. I have a very hard time pinning this last loss on Norv. The onside kick was a questionable call but not egregious. Apart from that the team let him down more than anything else. Up until that game they had the 4th fewest number of penalties, 3rd fewest penalty yards and had the 6th best +/- in turnovers in the NFL this year. Kaeding is the most accurate regular season kicker of all time. Of QBs with 300+ attempts this year, Rivers tied for the 2nd least number of Ints with 9 on the season. I find it hard to believe that Norv "coached" the team to do the opposite of all that, that he debarked from what he had done to make/keep them performing at that level for this game. Yet that's what happened on the field. For most of the game Norv kept his team in a position to win, coached identically to how he had to achieve the 13-3 record and the players flat out failed in ways completely out of character. My only consolation is that it took a while for a team like the Colts to finally break through, and the Chargers are still set up to be contenders.As for A.J. he's publicly acknowledged that he's made some mistakes along the way with the personnel (though not the ones people usually complain about). Regardless he's done enough to keep the team competitive for the entirety of his tenure as GM so far. This will be one of the most interesting off seasons (in regards to player decisions) he'll have had to date.

 

[massraider]

In order for the Norv Turner move to pay off, SD would have to take the next step.

The next step was winning a playoff game or games. They did that under Norv, so up to now it's been a good move. I have a very hard time pinning this last loss on Norv. The onside kick was a questionable call but not egregious. Apart from that the team let him down more than anything else. Up until that game they had the 4th fewest number of penalties, 3rd fewest penalty yards and had the 6th best +/- in turnovers in the NFL this year. Kaeding is the most accurate regular season kicker of all time. Of QBs with 300+ attempts this year, Rivers tied for the 2nd least number of Ints with 9 on the season. I find it hard to believe that Norv "coached" the team to do the opposite of all that, that he debarked from what he had done to make/keep them performing at that level for this game. Yet that's what happened on the field. For most of the game Norv kept his team in a position to win, coached identically to how he had to achieve the 13-3 record and the players flat out failed in ways completely out of character. My only consolation is that it took a while for a team like the Colts to finally break through, and the Chargers are still set up to be contenders.

it's funny how easily a similar argument could be made for Marty in that playoff loss to the Pats.