MERGED thread to talk about Peyton's performance in the Super Bowl (1 Viewer)

[JuniorNB]

That's an interesting question about Brady vs. the Seahawks.

If the Patriots had played the Seahawks last night, they would have lost. The only thing they'd have had going for them is that they would have been forced to run the ball, which was the only way to beat this Seahawks team. But I don't think they could have won this game.

If Tom Brady had taken Manning's place at the helm of Denver's offense last night, that's different. I doubt he would have put up 40+ points, but I doubt the Broncos would have given up 26 points on turnovers, either. I think we can say that the Seahawks would have won - they certainly earned the title and for my money they were the best team in the NFL this year. But it's an interesting idea.

That's funny you say that. I remember Brady leading his record breaking team into a game against a HUGE underdog team in NYG, against a defense that was nowhere near as good as SEA and putting up 14. MMMMMM...... weird.

Lucky catch. LOL (I have the Brady apologist's answers memorized).

 

[cstu]

That's an interesting question about Brady vs. the Seahawks.

If the Patriots had played the Seahawks last night, they would have lost. The only thing they'd have had going for them is that they would have been forced to run the ball, which was the only way to beat this Seahawks team. But I don't think they could have won this game.

If Tom Brady had taken Manning's place at the helm of Denver's offense last night, that's different. I doubt he would have put up 40+ points, but I doubt the Broncos would have given up 26 points on turnovers, either. I think we can say that the Seahawks would have won - they certainly earned the title and for my money they were the best team in the NFL this year. But it's an interesting idea.

I think this has more to do with coaching than it does the QB's. John Fox was in over his head.

 

[zilladog]

I love how every Brady loss is a devastating black mark on an already exaggerated legacy.

But with every Manning loss people are like "It's cool. rub some dirt on it and move on. 18 rooooolz 4 life!"

And they call us Brady fans haters. lol.

No, no, no. It's just the opposite. Whenever Manning loses a playoff game, the fans of Tommy Pigtails come out in droves, as if he just accomplished something. It's hilarious to watch.

What I saw was a Manning legacy thread quickly dissolve into a "wah wah Brady sucks spygate!" whiny pants thread as if that somehow takes the pain out of the Broncos loss. Lets call a spade a spade.

 

[Devine Intervention]

Im just confused. If Brady beat DEN and got smashed by SEA, is that a downgrade Brady and upgrade for Manning?

 

[cstu]

I'm going to come right out and say it - Brady and Manning are the same guy. If you rattle them, they fall apart, if you don't rattle them, they sit in the pocket and tear you apart.

 

[msudaisy26]

methinks Brady would have been able score more than a TD

Had NE played Seattle, I think the result would have been similar. While it's likely the Patriots don't turn it over four times (Belichick teams are almost always really good at not turning it over), how would they have scored? Do we really think Julian Edelman and Aaron Dobson would have gotten free against that secondary to score? Let's be serious.

Nope. The Pats would have lost to this Hawks team for sure. Without a doubt.

I don't know what the result would have been if they faced NE. What I do know is that's its crazy to just assume Seattle stomps anyone they play because of what they did to Denver yesterday. The NFL doesn't work like that.

Good post. No one seems to realize that if Denver and Seattle played again this Sunday that the game would probably be closer. Every team prepares differently for every team. We have no idea what would have happened if New England played Seattle yesterday, or if they had played the Colts, Chiefs, Bengals or Chargers.

 

[Devine Intervention]

I'm going to come right out and say it - Brady and Manning are the same guy. If you rattle them, they fall apart, if you don't rattle them, they sit in the pocket and tear you apart.

 

[ghostguy123]

That's an interesting question about Brady vs. the Seahawks.

If the Patriots had played the Seahawks last night, they would have lost. The only thing they'd have had going for them is that they would have been forced to run the ball, which was the only way to beat this Seahawks team. But I don't think they could have won this game.

If Tom Brady had taken Manning's place at the helm of Denver's offense last night, that's different. I doubt he would have put up 40+ points, but I doubt the Broncos would have given up 26 points on turnovers, either. I think we can say that the Seahawks would have won - they certainly earned the title and for my money they were the best team in the NFL this year. But it's an interesting idea.

If any other QB would have taken Manning's place in this game they would probably done better than 43-8. It was a very bad game for Manning. Bad throws, bad reads, bad decisions, mental mistakes, calling the wrong plays (most notably not running at the end of the half on 4th and 2 when the defense was clearly set up to get beat by a run with a 4 man line and the LBs playing back). Bad game plan mixed with poor quarterbacking mixed with fumbles mixed with playing a GREAT GREAT defense with a chip on their shoulder being the underdog...............................leads to a blowout.

That said, if anything, this season has definitely IMPROVED the legacy of Manning. Who has multiple neck surgeries, changes teams, loses half his arm strength, and still manages to set the passing yardage record and destroy the TD record while leading the highest scoring offense in NFL history, getting his team to the super bowl...................................I don't think any other QB who has ever lived would have been able to come anywhere close to this given the circumstances.

They got beat by a better team. They played a bad game while that better team played a good game, leading to a blowout.

 

[msudaisy26]

Im just confused. If Brady beat DEN and got smashed by SEA, is that a downgrade Brady and upgrade for Manning?

Nope it is all the people playing favorites

The Brady haters say he moved down because he lost to Peyton, and Peyton moved up the list because he beat Brady and couldn't keep up with the Seahawks because the Broncos were depleted by injuries. Go figure.

 

[zilladog]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

 

[skinsrule05]

Brady's Weapons:

Michael Hooomunhnuakjnhnrhuajujrujioajijehulajhsdklahdlijn

Edelman

Amendola

Blount

Vareen

Thompkins

Dobson

prob 2 maybe 3 first ballot HOF guys here

Manning's Weapons:



I love the what have they done lately comments too... We are looking at careers as a whole here. Brady clearly has the better resume at 3-2 in SB vs Manning who is now 1-2... Manning threw the game clinching pick last time he was in the SB and didn't even find his way to NY for this one.

Well, those three wins are a gray area. He sure has been known as a choker ever since then.

Oh sorry. Did I mention something you wish would go away? Funny that ever since then, "Mr Clutch" has become just the opposite. Hmmmm

We'll leave those 3 World Championships in the gray area... Solid analysis

They're in the same gray area that Bonds' home run record is.Patriot fans can pretend the cheating scandal never happened. Everyone else knows it.

So tell me, why haven't they won since?

Same reason Denver lost last night? Bad QB?

They haven't one because . . .1) The defense has been nowhere near as good as their title years

2) They have had key players injured for the playoffs

3) They are not as tough a team as they used to be when they played more smash mouthed football

4) When they relied on a high octane offense, they have been susceptible to teams that can put pressure with 4 DLmen and take away underneath stuff (ask Peyton about that after last night).

They were in both SBs they lost until the end. One they lost on a miracle catch off the top of a guy's helmet and the other they were in position to win with a Welker first down catch had he made it. Not sure how Spygate had anything to do with anything I just listed.

Just to be clear, Brady missed a wide open Welker. Could he have caught it? Sure. Was it an easy catch? Hell no. Should it have been a n easy catch? Yes, if it was thrown better. You Brady apologists are all the same. The one thing in your post I do agree with is #4. Which is why I decided to enter this Manning hate-fest. Brady couldn't get it done in his last two Super Bowls against MUCH worse defenses. But his fans love jumping on Peyton. As if it's makes Brady jump ahead of him on the all-time list or something.

This is spot on. When the Pats win it is because of god-like Brady. When the Pats lose it is because of other factors and don't question Brady.

This is the perfect example. In a deciding play Brady threw a bad pass and Welker was bad at the catch. Yet do you ever hear a Pats fan say they lost because Brady blew the pass? If it was Manning throwing that bad pass it would be all on him and his legacy is ruined.

 

[msudaisy26]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

He wins people money at fantasy football.

 

[Hooper31]

Greatest stat whore & regular season QB ever. Post season ham & egger QB.

I asked in other threads (and there were a lot of them), why did Peyton's teams seem to play like a completely different team in many playoff games? Manning has to accept blame for his role, but did Peyton forgot how to tackle? Did Peyton allow a KO for a TD? In other seasons, did Peytom miss clutch FGs at the end of games? Did Peyton trip over his own feet and allow a 70 yd TD against the Ravens in the last minute of the game? The net result is that thee were a ton of years that things did not end well, and not all of them were Peyton's fault.

The truly great players that have played in the NFL take responsibility for the play of the entire team. That's the first rule of leadership. its all your fault. That's the thing that stood out most to me about Ray Lewis that made him the best leader I've watched. Lewis consistently took responsibility for the play of his team. I'm not sure that's true of Manning.

This said, I don't like how people can so casually dismiss Manning with terms like "stat-whore". Peyton Manning is a great man. Not just a good person, but a remarkable person. He has earned a level of respect. I guess I know the truth deep down. People find it easier to tear down a role model instead of being one. Richard Sherman shared an important lesson recently. I don't think most of Mannings critics have learned this one yet.

No one has ever made himself great by showing how small someone else is.

I plan to hand write a thank you letter to someone important in my life today. Thanks for that idea Peyton.

 

[lod01]

That's an interesting question about Brady vs. the Seahawks.

If the Patriots had played the Seahawks last night, they would have lost. The only thing they'd have had going for them is that they would have been forced to run the ball, which was the only way to beat this Seahawks team. But I don't think they could have won this game.

If Tom Brady had taken Manning's place at the helm of Denver's offense last night, that's different. I doubt he would have put up 40+ points, but I doubt the Broncos would have given up 26 points on turnovers, either. I think we can say that the Seahawks would have won - they certainly earned the title and for my money they were the best team in the NFL this year. But it's an interesting idea.

I think this has more to do with coaching than it does the QB's. John Fox was in over his head.

The bum rode Manning all the way and probably thought this was going to be a cakewalk. I think the OC probably is smarter than Fox, which isn't saying much. At least he recognized that he should not venture out from under Manning's tutelage and try and go it alone with the Browns. Of course, he also just took a big hit......not that he did anything this year other than watch Nanning change his plays.

 

[ghostguy123]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

What, besides being able to spell a few words correctly, makes you not rAtarded?

This is a really, really, really stupid question.

 

[sho nuff]

Greatest stat whore & regular season QB ever. Post season ham & egger QB.

I asked in other threads (and there were a lot of them), why did Peyton's teams seem to play like a completely different team in many playoff games? Manning has to accept blame for his role, but did Peyton forgot how to tackle? Did Peyton allow a KO for a TD? In other seasons, did Peytom miss clutch FGs at the end of games? Did Peyton trip over his own feet and allow a 70 yd TD against the Ravens in the last minute of the game? The net result is that thee were a ton of years that things did not end well, and not all of them were Peyton's fault.

The truly great players that have played in the NFL take responsibility for the play of the entire team. That's the first rule of leadership. its all your fault. That's the thing that stood out most to me about Ray Lewis that made him the best leader I've watched. Lewis consistently took responsibility for the play of his team. I'm not sure that's true of Manning.

This said, I don't like how people can so casually dismiss Manning with terms like "stat-whore". Peyton Manning is a great man. Not just a good person, but a remarkable person. He has earned a level of respect. I guess I know the truth deep down. People find it easier to tear down a role model instead of being one. Richard Sherman shared an important lesson recently. I don't think most of Mannings critics have learned this one yet.

No one has ever made himself great by showing how small someone else is.

I plan to hand write a thank you letter to someone important in my life today. Thanks for that idea Peyton.

And from what I saw after...Manning put this on him and his performance.

And from many stories of yesterday acted with nothing but class as usual.

Same with Russell Wilson. Huge career ahead of that kid.

 

[bostonfred]

New England has the same cap available as DEN, so to say Brady has less is stupid. He just has more in other areas, and as a team sport that's all that matters.

I can see you using Mannings weapons as a reason for more passing stats, but as far as team success its an equal playing field and Manning and Denver were better than NE.

This is true over the course of their careers. This year, the Patriots had about a third of their cap tied up in players who were injured or allegedly murderers. Five of those players - Wilfork, Gronk, Mayo, Hernandez and Vollmer - had a combined cap hit of 24.8 million.But you're right - over the course of their careers, they have each enjoyed the same cap. Which is why it's a bit silly to say that Brady only won because he had better "teams", but it's absolutely ridiculous to give Manning full credit for his statistical accomplishments in the regular season, but then when he has a poor individual performance in the playoffs, and is unable to deliver the ball to the incredible offensive talent around him, to call it a "team loss".

We can debate how much of a role Manning had in setting the record, as opposed to those incredible receivers. We can debate whether the Patriots defense deserves credit for giving up 29 points to Jake Delhomme in 2003, or if Brady deserves any credit for throwing for over 300 yards and ran for a TD against the Raiders in a blizzard in what would become known as the tuck rule game. But it's hard to debate that Manning's two interceptions, one fumble, two incomplete passes on fourth and two, and one safety are an indictment of his team's performance.

 

[ghostguy123]

What a stupid comment some people are making..............such as "I have a hard time believing Tom Brady would have looked as bad as Manning".

Guess what, if they played the game again, I would have a hard time believing Peyton would look as bad as Peyton.

 

[Hooper31]

And from many stories of yesterday acted with nothing but class as usual.

Same with Russell Wilson. Huge career ahead of that kid.

Completely agree. Both are the role models we want them to be.

However, is it possible for a quarterback to get his defense to play better? Can he inspire? I'm not saying its a requirement. I'm just asking, is it possible? Are there, or have there been, players that lead an entire team? Can a linebacker get his offense to play better? I think Ray Lewis did. Am I off base here? Is it possible for a quarterback to demonstrate the sort of leadership that inspires a defense?

 

[sho nuff]

And from many stories of yesterday acted with nothing but class as usual.

Same with Russell Wilson. Huge career ahead of that kid.

Completely agree. Both are the role models we want them to be.

However, is it possible for a quarterback to get his defense to play better? Can he inspire? I'm not saying its a requirement. I'm just asking, is it possible? Are there, or have there been, players that lead an entire team? Can a linebacker get his offense to play better? I think Ray Lewis did. Am I off base here? Is it possible for a quarterback to demonstrate the sort of leadership that inspires a defense?

Not sure I see any QB out there making a D play any better by "motiviation".

Im sure his D looks better at times same with any high scoring QB if they can get an early lead and make other team's one dimensional.

I don't think Lewis had anything to do with the Ravens offense playing better at any given time.

 

[zilladog]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

What, besides being able to spell a few words correctly, makes you not rAtarded?

This is a really, really, really stupid question.

Humor me, then.

I am playing mostly devils advocate here. He certainly belongs in the pantheon of the greats. But there are plenty of guys who compare very favorably to Manning in terms of stats. Big Ben, Brees, Marino to name a few. Why is Manning better?

 

[Devine Intervention]

New England has the same cap available as DEN, so to say Brady has less is stupid. He just has more in other areas, and as a team sport that's all that matters.

I can see you using Mannings weapons as a reason for more passing stats, but as far as team success its an equal playing field and Manning and Denver were better than NE.

This is true over the course of their careers. This year, the Patriots had about a third of their cap tied up in players who were injured or allegedly murderers. Five of those players - Wilfork, Gronk, Mayo, Hernandez and Vollmer - had a combined cap hit of 24.8 million.But you're right - over the course of their careers, they have each enjoyed the same cap. Which is why it's a bit silly to say that Brady only won because he had better "teams", but it's absolutely ridiculous to give Manning full credit for his statistical accomplishments in the regular season, but then when he has a poor individual performance in the playoffs, and is unable to deliver the ball to the incredible offensive talent around him, to call it a "team loss".

We can debate how much of a role Manning had in setting the record, as opposed to those incredible receivers. We can debate whether the Patriots defense deserves credit for giving up 29 points to Jake Delhomme in 2003, or if Brady deserves any credit for throwing for over 300 yards and ran for a TD against the Raiders in a blizzard in what would become known as the tuck rule game. But it's hard to debate that Manning's two interceptions, one fumble, two incomplete passes on fourth and two, and one safety are an indictment of his team's performance

nice cherry picking, look at Bradys losses. Dude couldn't put up more than 14 on a defense that is no where near Seattles defense. Is it Bradys fault that he had guys in his face all game?

 

[mphtrilogy]

Greatest stat whore & regular season QB ever. Post season ham & egger QB.

I asked in other threads (and there were a lot of them), why did Peyton's teams seem to play like a completely different team in many playoff games? Manning has to accept blame for his role, but did Peyton forgot how to tackle? Did Peyton allow a KO for a TD? In other seasons, did Peytom miss clutch FGs at the end of games? Did Peyton trip over his own feet and allow a 70 yd TD against the Ravens in the last minute of the game? The net result is that thee were a ton of years that things did not end well, and not all of them were Peyton's fault.

The truly great players that have played in the NFL take responsibility for the play of the entire team. That's the first rule of leadership. its all your fault. That's the thing that stood out most to me about Ray Lewis that made him the best leader I've watched. Lewis consistently took responsibility for the play of his team. I'm not sure that's true of Manning.

This said, I don't like how people can so casually dismiss Manning with terms like "stat-whore". Peyton Manning is a great man. Not just a good person, but a remarkable person. He has earned a level of respect. I guess I know the truth deep down. People find it easier to tear down a role model instead of being one. Richard Sherman shared an important lesson recently. I don't think most of Mannings critics have learned this one yet.

No one has ever made himself great by showing how small someone else is.

I plan to hand write a thank you letter to someone important in my life today. Thanks for that idea Peyton.

And from what I saw after...Manning put this on him and his performance.

And from many stories of yesterday acted with nothing but class as usual.

Same with Russell Wilson. Huge career ahead of that kid.

I am a jets fan, but I really love R Wilson, and do believe he will have an incredible career when all is said and done.

Yes the Sea D was stacked, but his positivity and playmaking cannot be overlooked, he's the real deal. A special guy.

PManning is one of the all time greats, but the playoff record is what it is, as Parcells used to say you are what your record says you are.

I wish he had this career on the Jets, when he stayed in school for his senior year, when we had the #1 pick, but the guy has been really awesome year to year and gets his team to play at a high level.

but like Elway, helps to have a monster running game and a strong D to get you those multiple titles....

 

[sho nuff]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

What, besides being able to spell a few words correctly, makes you not rAtarded?

This is a really, really, really stupid question.

Humor me, then.

I am playing mostly devils advocate here. He certainly belongs in thepantheon f the greats. But there are plenty of guys who compare very favorably to Manning in terms of stats. Big Ben, Brees, Marino to name a few. Why is Manning better?

Big Ben compares favorably to Manning's stats? Since when?

What puts Manning in the upper elite tier is his mind. Ability to work an offense, read the D and command the offense to his liking.

His work ethic...pursuit of perfection and so on.

 

[Hooper31]

I don't think Lewis had anything to do with the Ravens offense playing better at any given time.

Really? I think Trent Dilfer disagrees with you, but I might be wrong about this. I don't know. I think some personalities have the ability to so dominate the locker room that they get the entire team to play better.

 

[skol asylum]

Russell Wilson > Peyton Manning

 

[cstu]

That's an interesting question about Brady vs. the Seahawks.

If the Patriots had played the Seahawks last night, they would have lost. The only thing they'd have had going for them is that they would have been forced to run the ball, which was the only way to beat this Seahawks team. But I don't think they could have won this game.

If Tom Brady had taken Manning's place at the helm of Denver's offense last night, that's different. I doubt he would have put up 40+ points, but I doubt the Broncos would have given up 26 points on turnovers, either. I think we can say that the Seahawks would have won - they certainly earned the title and for my money they were the best team in the NFL this year. But it's an interesting idea.

If any other QB would have taken Manning's place in this game they would probably done better than 43-8. It was a very bad game for Manning. Bad throws, bad reads, bad decisions, mental mistakes, calling the wrong plays (most notably not running at the end of the half on 4th and 2 when the defense was clearly set up to get beat by a run with a 4 man line and the LBs playing back). Bad game plan mixed with poor quarterbacking mixed with fumbles mixed with playing a GREAT GREAT defense with a chip on their shoulder being the underdog...............................leads to a blowout.

That said, if anything, this season has definitely IMPROVED the legacy of Manning. Who has multiple neck surgeries, changes teams, loses half his arm strength, and still manages to set the passing yardage record and destroy the TD record while leading the highest scoring offense in NFL history, getting his team to the super bowl...................................I don't think any other QB who has ever lived would have been able to come anywhere close to this given the circumstances.

They got beat by a better team. They played a bad game while that better team played a good game, leading to a blowout.

I agree. This loss leaves a black mark on his record, but at least it was against a great defense. The loss also doesn't erase everything he accomplished this year, not the least of which was getting to the SB with a flawed team.

 

[zilladog]

And from many stories of yesterday acted with nothing but class as usual.

Same with Russell Wilson. Huge career ahead of that kid.

Completely agree. Both are the role models we want them to be.

However, is it possible for a quarterback to get his defense to play better? Can he inspire? I'm not saying its a requirement. I'm just asking, is it possible? Are there, or have there been, players that lead an entire team? Can a linebacker get his offense to play better? I think Ray Lewis did. Am I off base here? Is it possible for a quarterback to demonstrate the sort of leadership that inspires a defense?

Not sure I see any QB out there making a D play any better by "motiviation".

Im sure his D looks better at times same with any high scoring QB if they can get an early lead and make other team's one dimensional.

I don't think Lewis had anything to do with the Ravens offense playing better at any given time.

I completely hear you, and I'm not tearing down "Manning the person" I think we all agree he's a class act. But this is sports and performance dictates legacy, no?

Seems like there's a often a double standard with football. When a team isn't able to accomplish much, despite talent, it's because they don't have a qb. qb is the single most important thing a team needs to win in the NFL. We hear it again and again. But when the qb and the team lay an egg, they say "well, qb doesn't play D...so there ya go."

How much responsibility does a qb have for a win or loss like this one? (I have my own opinion on this one, just throwing the question out there fr the pool).

 

[JuniorNB]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

What, besides being able to spell a few words correctly, makes you not rAtarded?

This is a really, really, really stupid question.

Humor me, then.

I am playing mostly devils advocate here. He certainly belongs in thepantheon f the greats. But there are plenty of guys who compare very favorably to Manning in terms of stats. Big Ben, Brees, Marino to name a few. Why is Manning better?

First off, get Big Ben out of there. He's not even in the conversation.

But as for Brees and Marino, I'd put them up there, too. Brees is a bit of a stats compiler at home. He's one of those 'perfect conditions' guys. But he's undoubtedly a great QB.

To me, Manning's greatness became the most evident when he went down for the 2011 season and his team promptly went from automatic 10 win team to being the worst team in the league. That didn't happen the year Brady went out. Or when Rodgers was out this year. The teams definitely slipped, but they didn't completely implode like when manning was out.

 

[fantasycurse42]

I agree. This loss leaves a black mark on his record, but at least it was against a great defense. The loss also doesn't erase everything he accomplished this year, not the least of which was getting to the SB with a flawed team.

Oh c'mon...

 

[sho nuff]

I don't think Lewis had anything to do with the Ravens offense playing better at any given time.

Really? I think Trent Dilfer disagrees with you, but I might be wrong about this. I don't know. I think some personalities have the ability to so dominate the locker room that they get the entire team to play better.

I guess its possible with certain personalities on offense to take that kind of thing from someone like Ray.

Just not sure I see any QB having that ability to motivate most defenders (just that defensive mindset I think is a different thing and I don't think most QBs or any could really tap in and get to them that way).

Interesting thought though for sure.

 

[cstu]

Russell Wilson > Peyton Manning

Two more SB's riding a great defense/special teams and that's exactly what the media will be saying about Russell, just like they did Brady.

 

[bostonfred]

If any other QB would have taken Manning's place in this game they would probably done better than 43-8. It was a very bad game for Manning. Bad throws, bad reads, bad decisions, mental mistakes, calling the wrong plays (most notably not running at the end of the half on 4th and 2 when the defense was clearly set up to get beat by a run with a 4 man line and the LBs playing back). Bad game plan mixed with poor quarterbacking mixed with fumbles mixed with playing a GREAT GREAT defense with a chip on their shoulder being the underdog...............................leads to a blowout.

That said, if anything, this season has definitely IMPROVED the legacy of Manning. Who has multiple neck surgeries, changes teams, loses half his arm strength, and still manages to set the passing yardage record and destroy the TD record while leading the highest scoring offense in NFL history, getting his team to the super bowl...................................I don't think any other QB who has ever lived would have been able to come anywhere close to this given the circumstances.

I agree with this. Manning had a great year. Not just a record setting year, he played better than he had in the past. It helped that he could throw a short pass to Demaryius Thomas and have him run 70 yards, but Manning played better than I've ever seen him play. That shootout with Dallas was epic. I was headed to a card game with friends who don't really care about football and they put the cards away until the game was over. In game after game, he stepped on teams' throats, where he used to leave the door open. This was almost certainly his best season, not just statistically, but in terms of how he played.

He's one of the best to ever take the field. Period. But his poor individual performances in the playoffs - not just wins and losses, not total stats, just poor individual performances - are part of his legacy. Losing to a better team didn't hurt his legacy, but having a terrible game confirmed it. It's part of the package. The conversation headed into this week is that he might have turned the corner in his career, and that he might be the greatest to ever play the game. If he'd played well in a loss, I think that still would have been the conventional wisdom, and I said as much before the game. But he played terribly. And he's done it often enough that this isn't a small sample size anymore. For whatever reason, one of the greatest players in NFL history has saved his worst games for the playoffs. A

 

[cstu]

To me, Manning's greatness became the most evident when he went down for the 2011 season and his team promptly went from automatic 10 win team to being the worst team in the league. That didn't happen the year Brady went out. Or when Rodgers was out this year. The teams definitely slipped, but they didn't completely implode like when manning was out.

This is true, but you also have to remember the Colts weren't trying to win that year. I know people will disagree with me but you don't go into the season with a 39 year old Kerry Collins as your starter if you are expecting to win.

 

[sho nuff]

And from many stories of yesterday acted with nothing but class as usual.

Same with Russell Wilson. Huge career ahead of that kid.

Completely agree. Both are the role models we want them to be.

However, is it possible for a quarterback to get his defense to play better? Can he inspire? I'm not saying its a requirement. I'm just asking, is it possible? Are there, or have there been, players that lead an entire team? Can a linebacker get his offense to play better? I think Ray Lewis did. Am I off base here? Is it possible for a quarterback to demonstrate the sort of leadership that inspires a defense?

Just also adding a big to Manning and Sherman on this one...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/pure-class-sherman-said-manning-asked-him-injured-160212854--nfl.html

 

[cstu]

For whatever reason, one of the greatest players in NFL history has saved his worst games for the playoffs.

I would have to go back and look, but I'd bet that his bad playoff games were against the best defenses he played that year.

 

[zilladog]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

What, besides being able to spell a few words correctly, makes you not rAtarded?

This is a really, really, really stupid question.

Humor me, then.

I am playing mostly devils advocate here. He certainly belongs in thepantheon f the greats. But there are plenty of guys who compare very favorably to Manning in terms of stats. Big Ben, Brees, Marino to name a few. Why is Manning better?

Big Ben compares favorably to Manning's stats? Since when?

What puts Manning in the upper elite tier is his mind. Ability to work an offense, read the D and command the offense to his liking.

His work ethic...pursuit of perfection and so on.

There is a .004 difference in the win pct of Manning vs. Big Ben. He also has one more ring

Ben: .673

Manning: .677

Ben doesn't hold a candle to Manning in terms of big flashy passing stats...But it isn't all about that, now is it?

 

[bostonfred]

nice cherry picking, look at Bradys losses. Dude couldn't put up more than 14 on a defense that is no where near Seattles defense. Is it Bradys fault that he had guys in his face all game?

266 yards, one TD, 0 INTs is a lot better than Manning getting intercepted twice, losing a fumble, taking a safety, and failing to convert twice on 4th and 2. Holding the lead with two minutes left in the fourth quarter is a lot better than being down 36-0 with one second left in the third quarter. That's the point - Brady's performance in that game was still almost good enough to win. He kept them in the game. And before you give credit to the Patriots defense for holding the Giants to 17 points, the Seahawks scored 43 points last night - 26 off of turnovers.

 

[sho nuff]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

What, besides being able to spell a few words correctly, makes you not rAtarded?

This is a really, really, really stupid question.

Humor me, then.

I am playing mostly devils advocate here. He certainly belongs in thepantheon f the greats. But there are plenty of guys who compare very favorably to Manning in terms of stats. Big Ben, Brees, Marino to name a few. Why is Manning better?

Big Ben compares favorably to Manning's stats? Since when?

What puts Manning in the upper elite tier is his mind. Ability to work an offense, read the D and command the offense to his liking.

His work ethic...pursuit of perfection and so on.

There is a .004 difference in the win pct of Manning vs. Big Ben. He also has one more ring

Ben: .673

Manning: .677

Ben doesn't hold a candle to Manning in terms of big flashy passing stats...But it isn't all about that, now is it?

You just said in terms of stats.

Stats are more of the individual thing I thought we were comparing. Not winning percentage which is more of a team number.

Also a bit skewed by Manning coming in to a Colts team that was terrible. 3-13 the year before and were never better than 9-7 for several years before that.

Ben came into a team that was 6-10 the year before...but 10-5 and 13-3 in the years before that and were perennial playoff teams for a good decade there...

 

[ghostguy123]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

What, besides being able to spell a few words correctly, makes you not rAtarded?

This is a really, really, really stupid question.

Humor me, then.

I am playing mostly devils advocate here. He certainly belongs in the pantheon of the greats. But there are plenty of guys who compare very favorably to Manning in terms of stats. Big Ben, Brees, Marino to name a few. Why is Manning better?

You asked why Manning is so great, then asked why Manning is so much better than other great QBs you named............................

 

[zilladog]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

What, besides being able to spell a few words correctly, makes you not rAtarded?

This is a really, really, really stupid question.

Humor me, then.

I am playing mostly devils advocate here. He certainly belongs in thepantheon f the greats. But there are plenty of guys who compare very favorably to Manning in terms of stats. Big Ben, Brees, Marino to name a few. Why is Manning better?

Big Ben compares favorably to Manning's stats? Since when?

What puts Manning in the upper elite tier is his mind. Ability to work an offense, read the D and command the offense to his liking.

His work ethic...pursuit of perfection and so on.

There is a .004 difference in the win pct of Manning vs. Big Ben. He also has one more ring

Ben: .673

Manning: .677

Ben doesn't hold a candle to Manning in terms of big flashy passing stats...But it isn't all about that, now is it?

You just said in terms of stats.

Stats are more of the individual thing I thought we were comparing. Not winning percentage which is more of a team number.

Also a bit skewed by Manning coming in to a Colts team that was terrible. 3-13 the year before and were never better than 9-7 for several years before that.

Ben came into a team that was 6-10 the year before...but 10-5 and 13-3 in the years before that and were perennial playoff teams for a good decade there...

win/loss isn't a stat? Isn't the most important stat?

 

[zilladog]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

What, besides being able to spell a few words correctly, makes you not rAtarded?

This is a really, really, really stupid question.

Humor me, then.

I am playing mostly devils advocate here. He certainly belongs in the pantheon of the greats. But there are plenty of guys who compare very favorably to Manning in terms of stats. Big Ben, Brees, Marino to name a few. Why is Manning better?

You asked why Manning is so great, then asked why Manning is so much better than other great QBs you named............................

ummm, yeah? and? Everyone seems to have him over these guys. I'm asking why. Nothing inconsistent there.

 

[sho nuff]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

What, besides being able to spell a few words correctly, makes you not rAtarded?

This is a really, really, really stupid question.

Humor me, then.

I am playing mostly devils advocate here. He certainly belongs in thepantheon f the greats. But there are plenty of guys who compare very favorably to Manning in terms of stats. Big Ben, Brees, Marino to name a few. Why is Manning better?

Big Ben compares favorably to Manning's stats? Since when?

What puts Manning in the upper elite tier is his mind. Ability to work an offense, read the D and command the offense to his liking.

His work ethic...pursuit of perfection and so on.

There is a .004 difference in the win pct of Manning vs. Big Ben. He also has one more ring

Ben: .673

Manning: .677

Ben doesn't hold a candle to Manning in terms of big flashy passing stats...But it isn't all about that, now is it?

You just said in terms of stats.

Stats are more of the individual thing I thought we were comparing. Not winning percentage which is more of a team number.

Also a bit skewed by Manning coming in to a Colts team that was terrible. 3-13 the year before and were never better than 9-7 for several years before that.

Ben came into a team that was 6-10 the year before...but 10-5 and 13-3 in the years before that and were perennial playoff teams for a good decade there...

win/loss isn't a stat? Isn't the most important stat?

Its not actually a QB stat no.

Its a team stat.

HTH

 

[skol asylum]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

What, besides being able to spell a few words correctly, makes you not rAtarded?

This is a really, really, really stupid question.

Humor me, then. I am playing mostly devils advocate here. He certainly belongs in thepantheon f the greats. But there are plenty of guys who compare very favorably to Manning in terms of stats. Big Ben, Brees, Marino to name a few. Why is Manning better?

Big Ben compares favorably to Manning's stats? Since when?

What puts Manning in the upper elite tier is his mind. Ability to work an offense, read the D and command the offense to his liking.

His work ethic...pursuit of perfection and so on.

There is a .004 difference in the win pct of Manning vs. Big Ben. He also has one more ringBen: .673

Manning: .677

Ben doesn't hold a candle to Manning in terms of big flashy passing stats...But it isn't all about that, now is it?

You just said in terms of stats.

Stats are more of the individual thing I thought we were comparing. Not winning percentage which is more of a team number.

Also a bit skewed by Manning coming in to a Colts team that was terrible. 3-13 the year before and were never better than 9-7 for several years before that.

Ben came into a team that was 6-10 the year before...but 10-5 and 13-3 in the years before that and were perennial playoff teams for a good decade there...

win/loss isn't a stat? Isn't the most important stat?

As a team stat yes. As an individual stat no. Unless you can perfect a methodology that clearly assigns a win or loss to individual players who has significant indie impact on the outcome of each game. Its a team sport.

 

[ghostguy123]

There is a .004 difference in the win pct of Manning vs. Big Ben. He also has one more ring

Ben: .673

Manning: .677

Ben doesn't hold a candle to Manning in terms of big flashy passing stats...But it isn't all about that, now is it?

So then according to you, Russell Wilson is the best QB of all time because of his win %. Wonderful logic.

I call this the "Mike Golic logic", on par with Golic saying it is better to be 4-0 in super bowls than to be 4-2.

 

[zilladog]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

What, besides being able to spell a few words correctly, makes you not rAtarded?

This is a really, really, really stupid question.

Humor me, then.

I am playing mostly devils advocate here. He certainly belongs in thepantheon f the greats. But there are plenty of guys who compare very favorably to Manning in terms of stats. Big Ben, Brees, Marino to name a few. Why is Manning better?

Big Ben compares favorably to Manning's stats? Since when?

What puts Manning in the upper elite tier is his mind. Ability to work an offense, read the D and command the offense to his liking.

His work ethic...pursuit of perfection and so on.

There is a .004 difference in the win pct of Manning vs. Big Ben. He also has one more ring

Ben: .673

Manning: .677

Ben doesn't hold a candle to Manning in terms of big flashy passing stats...But it isn't all about that, now is it?

You just said in terms of stats.

Stats are more of the individual thing I thought we were comparing. Not winning percentage which is more of a team number.

Also a bit skewed by Manning coming in to a Colts team that was terrible. 3-13 the year before and were never better than 9-7 for several years before that.

Ben came into a team that was 6-10 the year before...but 10-5 and 13-3 in the years before that and were perennial playoff teams for a good decade there...

win/loss isn't a stat? Isn't the most important stat?

Its not actually a QB stat no.

Its a team stat.

HTH

How are passing yards not a team stat when someone else on the team has to catch it?

 

[Kwai Chang Caine]

What, besides big stats, makes Manning so great exactly?

He wins people money at fantasy football.

Not this year. He soiled the bed against my team week 15. Manning owner set league regular season records only to finish third.

 

[zilladog]

There is a .004 difference in the win pct of Manning vs. Big Ben. He also has one more ring

Ben: .673

Manning: .677

Ben doesn't hold a candle to Manning in terms of big flashy passing stats...But it isn't all about that, now is it?

So then according to you, Russell Wilson is the best QB of all time because of his win %. Wonderful logic.

I call this the "Mike Golic logic", on par with Golic saying it is better to be 4-0 in super bowls than to be 4-2.

No. I was simply pointing out that there are other qb's who compare favorably to Manning. That's all. Any implications beyond that you just made up.

 

[ghostguy123]

win/loss isn't a stat? Isn't the most important stat?

Not not at all when determining who is a better player in a team sport. It is a factor, but not the most important factor. There are plenty of lesser QBs who win more games than better QBs because they play on better teams.

 

[JuniorNB]

nice cherry picking, look at Bradys losses. Dude couldn't put up more than 14 on a defense that is no where near Seattles defense. Is it Bradys fault that he had guys in his face all game?

266 yards, one TD, 0 INTs is a lot better than Manning getting intercepted twice, losing a fumble, taking a safety, and failing to convert twice on 4th and 2. Holding the lead with two minutes left in the fourth quarter is a lot better than being down 36-0 with one second left in the third quarter. That's the point - Brady's performance in that game was still almost good enough to win. He kept them in the game. And before you give credit to the Patriots defense for holding the Giants to 17 points, the Seahawks scored 43 points last night - 26 off of turnovers.

When did manning lose a fumble?

And saying he 'took a safety' is a bit of a stretch. I realize you're a Brady lover, but you're overselling your case here a bit.

Also, the second interception may have been caused by his arm getting hit, as he faced extreme pressure for the 50th time. It's not like he made an errant throw.