Michael Turner vs Marion Barber (1 Viewer)

[Chase Stuart]

I was going to say...you don't usually make proclamations that are that far off base

Thanks, I think...FYI, to illustrate how far off the chart the Barber hype is right now, in the thread which I was thinking of, someone said that Barber was a top-5 dynasty back, and better than Joseph Addai in a dynasty league.

I don't see Barber being much more valuable than he was this year. He runs so hard that he simply can't get the ball that much IMO. He also has almost no breakaway ability and he will only get into the top 10 if he stays healthy and others are injured. I see him finishing in that 7-12 range if he stays healthy.

He finished as #7 this year, in a RBBC with Julius Jones. So you're assuming that one or more of the following occur in order for him to stay at 7, or even drop a bit:1 - His role in the offense stays the same or decreases next year

2 - The Dallas offense won't be as productive

3 - Barber gets injured

Unless he gets injured or the Cowboys bring in a big-time back to compete with him, I just don't see how he doesn't better his stats from last season.

Barber's 198 FP last year would have ranked 10th in '06, 11th in '05, 13th in '04, 13th in '03 and 18th in '02. On average, 198 FP is a bit below RB12. But last year, lots of RBs got hurt or had odd down years. I'm not sure I'd bank on that happening again.

This agrument really holds no water considering the fact that of the top 10 RBs last year, despite injuries or missed games or whatever else you want to base stats on, Barber was SIGNIFICANTLY lower than all of them in total touches. Barber is the ONLY top 10 RB from last year that did so while amassing less than 250 touches. Barber recorded only 248 touches. The next lowest was Peterson at 257. After that, no other top 10 RB was under 300 total touches. Do you really expect that a healthy Barber will touch the ball LESS in 2008?

There was no argument presented. Barber's numbers last year would have been right around RB13 in most of the last five years. I don't know why or how you would choose to disagree with that.If you think Barber will improve on last year's FP total, that's fine. That's also a different claim.

 

[switz]

This should be an easy vote. Not only is Barber in a better situation, he is most likely the better talent and far more proven. Oh as well as younger.

Unbelievable anyone would think that...

 

[treat88]

I voted Turner last year and vociferously defended that vote.

I voted Turner again this year.

Time will tell.

 

[Wu-banger]

not surprised the Turner - fanboys have come out blazing.I think that group is over thinking it.

One last thing to consider ,

I think Barber is a much safer choice between the two.

Turner with the Falcons has a greater potential to be a bust.

 

[switz]

Do you really expect that a healthy Barber will touch the ball LESS in 2008?

I don't see him touching it that much more, and I doubt his production per touch is ever higher than it was last year.

 

[switz]

not surprised the Turner - fanboys have come out blazing.I think that group is over thinking it.

Really? If there's a group of fanboys this offseason it's definitely in Barber's corner...

 

[jurb26]

I was going to say...you don't usually make proclamations that are that far off base

Thanks, I think...FYI, to illustrate how far off the chart the Barber hype is right now, in the thread which I was thinking of, someone said that Barber was a top-5 dynasty back, and better than Joseph Addai in a dynasty league.

I don't see Barber being much more valuable than he was this year. He runs so hard that he simply can't get the ball that much IMO. He also has almost no breakaway ability and he will only get into the top 10 if he stays healthy and others are injured. I see him finishing in that 7-12 range if he stays healthy.

He finished as #7 this year, in a RBBC with Julius Jones. So you're assuming that one or more of the following occur in order for him to stay at 7, or even drop a bit:1 - His role in the offense stays the same or decreases next year

2 - The Dallas offense won't be as productive

3 - Barber gets injured

Unless he gets injured or the Cowboys bring in a big-time back to compete with him, I just don't see how he doesn't better his stats from last season.

Barber's 198 FP last year would have ranked 10th in '06, 11th in '05, 13th in '04, 13th in '03 and 18th in '02. On average, 198 FP is a bit below RB12. But last year, lots of RBs got hurt or had odd down years. I'm not sure I'd bank on that happening again.

This agrument really holds no water considering the fact that of the top 10 RBs last year, despite injuries or missed games or whatever else you want to base stats on, Barber was SIGNIFICANTLY lower than all of them in total touches. Barber is the ONLY top 10 RB from last year that did so while amassing less than 250 touches. Barber recorded only 248 touches. The next lowest was Peterson at 257. After that, no other top 10 RB was under 300 total touches. Do you really expect that a healthy Barber will touch the ball LESS in 2008?

There was no argument presented. Barber's numbers last year would have been right around RB13 in most of the last five years. I don't know why or how you would choose to disagree with that.If you think Barber will improve on last year's FP total, that's fine. That's also a different claim.

I'm not disagreeing with the numbers. I'm disagreeing with how you are trying to use them. I think that is rather obvious in the post....

 

[switz]

All I can say is all I've heard from Turner supporters his entire career are excuses. Excuses that he's behind the best back in the league and if he wasn't, he'd be close to the best himself. Now, he gets out from underneath LT2 and there's more excuses.

What excuses??? I don't think any Turner "supporter" is making excuses at all.Barber is in a near perfect situation, and is barely a 1,000 yard rusher. What's his excuse? Oh, he shared time? So it's ok to use that in reference to Barber, but not in reference to Turner??As far as ATL goes, Turner will do well. Will he do as well as he would in DAL? Probably not. That's not an excuse. Will he do as well as Barber would in ATL? I have no doubts he'll do much better than Barber would in ATL.No excuses.

 

[jurb26]

This should be an easy vote. Not only is Barber in a better situation, he is most likely the better talent and far more proven. Oh as well as younger.

Unbelievable anyone would think that...

You would say that.

Funny, NFL.com also ranked Barber as the best RB in the FA class ahead of Turner. Pretty unbelievable that you can so Turner is better with such certainty. I mean he has proven so much in the NFL....

 

[switz]

I was going to say...you don't usually make proclamations that are that far off base

Thanks, I think...FYI, to illustrate how far off the chart the Barber hype is right now, in the thread which I was thinking of, someone said that Barber was a top-5 dynasty back, and better than Joseph Addai in a dynasty league.

I don't see Barber being much more valuable than he was this year. He runs so hard that he simply can't get the ball that much IMO. He also has almost no breakaway ability and he will only get into the top 10 if he stays healthy and others are injured. I see him finishing in that 7-12 range if he stays healthy.

He finished as #7 this year, in a RBBC with Julius Jones. So you're assuming that one or more of the following occur in order for him to stay at 7, or even drop a bit:1 - His role in the offense stays the same or decreases next year

2 - The Dallas offense won't be as productive

3 - Barber gets injured

Unless he gets injured or the Cowboys bring in a big-time back to compete with him, I just don't see how he doesn't better his stats from last season.

Barber's 198 FP last year would have ranked 10th in '06, 11th in '05, 13th in '04, 13th in '03 and 18th in '02. On average, 198 FP is a bit below RB12. But last year, lots of RBs got hurt or had odd down years. I'm not sure I'd bank on that happening again.

This agrument really holds no water considering the fact that of the top 10 RBs last year, despite injuries or missed games or whatever else you want to base stats on, Barber was SIGNIFICANTLY lower than all of them in total touches. Barber is the ONLY top 10 RB from last year that did so while amassing less than 250 touches. Barber recorded only 248 touches. The next lowest was Peterson at 257. After that, no other top 10 RB was under 300 total touches. Do you really expect that a healthy Barber will touch the ball LESS in 2008?

There was no argument presented. Barber's numbers last year would have been right around RB13 in most of the last five years. I don't know why or how you would choose to disagree with that.If you think Barber will improve on last year's FP total, that's fine. That's also a different claim.

I'm not disagreeing with the numbers. I'm disagreeing with how you are trying to use them. I think that is rather obvious in the post....

Because it shows that in any other season, Barber's totals would not be top-10?Reality is that last year a few RBs finished much higher in the rankings than they should have due to a number of top RBs getting injured. A realistic owner would take that into account, and not project a players numbers for the following season based on their ranking in a down season.

For instance:

If the other RBs are not injured, and Barber puts up the same numbers - where do you expect him to rank?

Base your projections on his stats, not on his end of year ranking. Then base your ranking on those projections. It will save you from succumbing to the hype.

 

[switz]

This should be an easy vote. Not only is Barber in a better situation, he is most likely the better talent and far more proven. Oh as well as younger.

Unbelievable anyone would think that...

You would say that.

Funny, NFL.com also ranked Barber as the best RB in the FA class ahead of Turner. Pretty unbelievable that you can so Turner is better with such certainty. I mean he has proven so much in the NFL....

NFL.com based their rankings on last years stats... not on a consideration of talent.

 

[jurb26]

I was going to say...you don't usually make proclamations that are that far off base

Thanks, I think...FYI, to illustrate how far off the chart the Barber hype is right now, in the thread which I was thinking of, someone said that Barber was a top-5 dynasty back, and better than Joseph Addai in a dynasty league.

I don't see Barber being much more valuable than he was this year. He runs so hard that he simply can't get the ball that much IMO. He also has almost no breakaway ability and he will only get into the top 10 if he stays healthy and others are injured. I see him finishing in that 7-12 range if he stays healthy.

He finished as #7 this year, in a RBBC with Julius Jones. So you're assuming that one or more of the following occur in order for him to stay at 7, or even drop a bit:1 - His role in the offense stays the same or decreases next year

2 - The Dallas offense won't be as productive

3 - Barber gets injured

Unless he gets injured or the Cowboys bring in a big-time back to compete with him, I just don't see how he doesn't better his stats from last season.

Barber's 198 FP last year would have ranked 10th in '06, 11th in '05, 13th in '04, 13th in '03 and 18th in '02. On average, 198 FP is a bit below RB12. But last year, lots of RBs got hurt or had odd down years. I'm not sure I'd bank on that happening again.

This agrument really holds no water considering the fact that of the top 10 RBs last year, despite injuries or missed games or whatever else you want to base stats on, Barber was SIGNIFICANTLY lower than all of them in total touches. Barber is the ONLY top 10 RB from last year that did so while amassing less than 250 touches. Barber recorded only 248 touches. The next lowest was Peterson at 257. After that, no other top 10 RB was under 300 total touches. Do you really expect that a healthy Barber will touch the ball LESS in 2008?

There was no argument presented. Barber's numbers last year would have been right around RB13 in most of the last five years. I don't know why or how you would choose to disagree with that.If you think Barber will improve on last year's FP total, that's fine. That's also a different claim.

I'm not disagreeing with the numbers. I'm disagreeing with how you are trying to use them. I think that is rather obvious in the post....

Because it shows that in any other season, Barber's totals would not be top-10?Reality is that last year a few RBs finished much higher in the rankings than they should have due to a number of top RBs getting injured. A realistic owner would take that into account, and not project a players numbers for the following season based on their ranking in a down season.

For instance:

If the other RBs are not injured, and Barber puts up the same numbers - where do you expect him to rank?

Base your projections on his stats, not on his end of year ranking. Then base your ranking on those projections. It will save you from succumbing to the hype.

It really is amazing how blind you guys are being to the point. The point is that of all the RBs you are talking about loosing these potential opportunities, Barber is the one who is most likely to see the greatest increase in 2008. Reality tells me that Barber, now with Jones out of the picture, will get more touches. The difference in the extra touches he receives will likely be greater than the difference in the ones these other guys get. Again, he only had 248 taouches last year! No other top 10 guy was lower than 257.

 

[jurb26]

This should be an easy vote. Not only is Barber in a better situation, he is most likely the better talent and far more proven. Oh as well as younger.

Unbelievable anyone would think that...

You would say that.

Funny, NFL.com also ranked Barber as the best RB in the FA class ahead of Turner. Pretty unbelievable that you can so Turner is better with such certainty. I mean he has proven so much in the NFL....

NFL.com based their rankings on their opinion of talent... not mine.

Fixed.

 

[zamboni]

The one X-factor to consider is if Dallas surprises and drafts McFadden. I doubt it happens, but if it does, that clearly changes the comparison.

 

[switz]

He finished as #7 this year, in a RBBC with Julius Jones. So you're assuming that one or more of the following occur in order for him to stay at 7, or even drop a bit:

1 - His role in the offense stays the same or decreases next year

2 - The Dallas offense won't be as productive

3 - Barber gets injured

Unless he gets injured or the Cowboys bring in a big-time back to compete with him, I just don't see how he doesn't better his stats from last season.

Actually... if you think his ranking will stay the same or increase, you have to assume:1. - his role will increase

2. - his production will increase

3. - all the other RBs in the NFL will again be injured.

While 1 is possible, 2 is unlikely, 3 is ridiculous

 

[travdogg]

I'd say Turner but its really a tossup. I just think Turner is more talented and Atlanta isn't as bad as many think.

 

[jurb26]

The one X-factor to consider is if Dallas surprises and drafts McFadden. I doubt it happens, but if it does, that clearly changes the comparison.

No doubt that would greatly change things. As of now it appears that Dal is looking to make Barber a primary RB however.

 

[jurb26]

He finished as #7 this year, in a RBBC with Julius Jones. So you're assuming that one or more of the following occur in order for him to stay at 7, or even drop a bit:

1 - His role in the offense stays the same or decreases next year

2 - The Dallas offense won't be as productive

3 - Barber gets injured

Unless he gets injured or the Cowboys bring in a big-time back to compete with him, I just don't see how he doesn't better his stats from last season.

Actually... if you think his ranking will stay the same or increase, you have to assume:1. - his role will increase - Ummm, duh that was the point of the previous posts you guys have chosen to ignore. Unless he gets injured or Dal drafts a guy early this is looking like a lock.

2. - his production will increase - Last year was actually Barbers least productive from a FP per touch basis.

3. - all the other RBs in the NFL will again be injured. - Again, you have to consider the relativity of Barbers touches in comparison to the RBs you are trying to say you expect will suddenly amass more touches. Personally, I think that is a hard argument to make.... though knowing you I'm sure you will try.

While 1 is possible, 2 is unlikely, 3 is ridiculous

 

[switz]

This should be an easy vote. Not only is Barber in a better situation, he is most likely the better talent and far more proven. Oh as well as younger.

Unbelievable anyone would think that...

You would say that.

Funny, NFL.com also ranked Barber as the best RB in the FA class ahead of Turner. Pretty unbelievable that you can so Turner is better with such certainty. I mean he has proven so much in the NFL....

NFL.com based their rankings on their opinion of talent... not mine.

Fixed.

Sorry, your "fix" is what fits your opinion, but not facts. I can't even find a link for what you claim.

 

[switz]

3. - all the other RBs in the NFL will again be injured. - Again, you have to consider the relativity of Barbers touches in comparison to the RBs you are trying to say you expect will suddenly amass more touches. Personally, I think that is a hard argument to make.... though knowing you I'm sure you will try.

While 1 is possible, 2 is unlikely, 3 is ridiculous

Huh???? Steven Jackson - 06:346, 07:237 (injured) - do you not think his touches are going to go back above 300???

Frank Gore - 06:312, 07:260 - you don't think his carries will increase?

Larry Johnson - 06:418, 07:158 - you don't think his carries will increase?

We're not talking about other RBs who weren't getting carries suddenly getting more (a la Barber)... but players who missed significant time back to playing healthy... I don't see how that's hard to understand for you....

 

[Moe Green]

This should be an easy vote. Not only is Barber in a better situation, he is most likely the better talent and far more proven. Oh as well as younger.

Unbelievable anyone would think that...

Disagree -- not unbelievable at all. We've had a lot more exposure to see what MBIII can do compared to what Turner can do.

 

[jurb26]

3. - all the other RBs in the NFL will again be injured. - Again, you have to consider the relativity of Barbers touches in comparison to the RBs you are trying to say you expect will suddenly amass more touches. Personally, I think that is a hard argument to make.... though knowing you I'm sure you will try.

While 1 is possible, 2 is unlikely, 3 is ridiculous

Huh???? Steven Jackson - 06:346, 07:237 (injured) - do you not think his touches are going to go back above 300???

Frank Gore - 06:312, 07:260 - you don't think his carries will increase?

Larry Johnson - 06:418, 07:158 - you don't think his carries will increase?

We're not talking about other RBs who weren't getting carries suddenly getting more (a la Barber)... but players who missed significant time back to playing healthy... I don't see how that's hard to understand for you....

Barber was a top 10 (#7) RB despite having SIGNIFICANTLY less touches than the others. With more touches, are you saying you see him falling out of the top 10 simply because a few guys will get more touches next year as well? BTW, even if these 3 guys you name out produce him because of these extra carries (not something I find likely). Barber will still be top 10. This is assuming Barber does absolutely nothing with whatever extra touches he gets. I'm still failing to see your point.

 

[switz]

This should be an easy vote. Not only is Barber in a better situation, he is most likely the better talent and far more proven. Oh as well as younger.

Unbelievable anyone would think that...

You would say that.

Funny, NFL.com also ranked Barber as the best RB in the FA class ahead of Turner. Pretty unbelievable that you can so Turner is better with such certainty. I mean he has proven so much in the NFL....

here's all I've been able to find:

top offensive FAs - doesn't consider UFA's

later in the video, Michael Turner is "the guy"

 

[switz]

3. - all the other RBs in the NFL will again be injured. - Again, you have to consider the relativity of Barbers touches in comparison to the RBs you are trying to say you expect will suddenly amass more touches. Personally, I think that is a hard argument to make.... though knowing you I'm sure you will try.

While 1 is possible, 2 is unlikely, 3 is ridiculous

Huh???? Steven Jackson - 06:346, 07:237 (injured) - do you not think his touches are going to go back above 300???

Frank Gore - 06:312, 07:260 - you don't think his carries will increase?

Larry Johnson - 06:418, 07:158 - you don't think his carries will increase?

We're not talking about other RBs who weren't getting carries suddenly getting more (a la Barber)... but players who missed significant time back to playing healthy... I don't see how that's hard to understand for you....

Barber was a top 10 (#7) RB despite having SIGNIFICANTLY less touches than the others. With more touches, are you saying you see him falling out of the top 10 simply because a few guys will get more touches next year as well? BTW, even if these 3 guys you name out produce him because of these extra carries (not something I find likely). Barber will still be top 10. This is assuming Barber does absolutely nothing with whatever extra touches he gets. I'm still failing to see your point.

You're either being belligerent or missing the point completely.Barber - 248 touches - likely to share carries again this year w/ McFadden or Jones

"Barber has SIGNIFICANTLY fewer touches?"

Than these guys? Sure...

Tomlinson - 375 touches

C Portis - 372 touches

Westbrook - 358 touches

McGahee - 335 touches

Than these guys? Not really

J Lewis 328 touches - 4 touches/game more

Frank Gore 313 touches - 4 touches/game more

Addai - 302 touches - 4 touches/game more - and Addai missed 1 game, pasrt of 2 others

Lynch - 298 touches - 3 touches/game more

Steven Jackson - 275 touches - definitely will see more

Peterson - 257 touches - less than 1/2 carry per game

Than these guys? No way! - and it's easier to argue these guys will see an increase in touches than Barber

Reggie Bush - 230 touches

Brandon Jacobs - 223 touches

Ryan Grant - 218 touches

Maurice Jones-Drew - 207 touches

Laurence Maroney - 189 touches

Larry Johnson - 188 touches

Ronnie Brown - 158 touches

 

[Chase Stuart]

Barber had 15.5 touches per game last year. In years that the NFL has had a 16 game schedule, 16 RBs (before Barber) had 15.5 touches per game or less, missed no more than three games, and finished among the top ten in fantasy points. The table below lists the RBs, the year they met the criteria, their rank in FP that season, their touches, touches per game, their total fantasy points, the number of games they played the next season, their touches the next season, and their fantasy points the next season.

player year rk tch tch/g fp gN+1 tchN+1 fpN+1Maurice Jones-Drew 2006 8 212 13.3 228 16 207 172Terry Kirby 1993 10 194 12.1 162 4 74 51Gary Brown 1993 7 216 13.5 172 12 187 114Marcus Allen 1993 5 240 15.0 190 13 231 148Herschel Walker 1991 8 231 15.4 163 16 305 195Lorenzo White 1990 10 207 12.9 179 13 137 92James Brooks 1990 9 221 13.8 181 15 192 116Derrick Fenner 1990 5 232 14.5 190 11 102 58Ickey Woods 1988 6 224 14.0 217 2 29 21James Brooks 1988 8 211 14.1 206 16 258 209John Williams 1988 9 247 15.4 195 15 222 158Herschel Walker 1986 4 227 14.2 241 12 269 209Lorenzo Hampton 1986 9 247 15.4 200 12 98 57Stump Mitchell 1985 9 230 14.4 211 15 215 138James Brooks 1985 8 247 15.4 223 16 259 231Sherman Smith 1979 7 242 15.1 217 3 29 23While not shown, every single RB on the list declined in FP/touch the next season (a stupid stat that I don't think deserves to be shown). Four of the RBs -- James Brooks 85, Herschel Walker 86, Herschel Walker 91 and Terry Kirby 93 -- improved in FP/G the next season (also not shown). Only Walker in '92 scored more than 10 more FPs in Year N+1 than Year N.On average, the group saw about 0.25 more touches per game the next season.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

All I can say is all I've heard from Turner supporters his entire career are excuses. Excuses that he's behind the best back in the league and if he wasn't, he'd be close to the best himself. Now, he gets out from underneath LT2 and there's more excuses.

What excuses??? I don't think any Turner "supporter" is making excuses at all.Barber is in a near perfect situation, and is barely a 1,000 yard rusher. What's his excuse? Oh, he shared time? So it's ok to use that in reference to Barber, but not in reference to Turner??As far as ATL goes, Turner will do well. Will he do as well as he would in DAL? Probably not. That's not an excuse. Will he do as well as Barber would in ATL? I have no doubts he'll do much better than Barber would in ATL.No excuses.

All I've ever heard are excuses to why he isn't a superstar yet. The minute LT struggles, all you hear are talks about getting this guy in there, he can do it. The guy's been IMO one of the most overrated RB's in each of the last 2 years, going in drafts WAY to early.Very simply, he's been overrated and overhyped the past few seasons. If anyone has drafted Turner in any of there leagues, there is very little success they can talk about and if they won a championship, it was because they overcame the Turner draft pick, not because of it. That's the facts, that's the truth.If you've seen enough of him to automatically say that he's better than Barber, that's fine. I'll watch and see as I'm not buying Turner as a RB1 this year in FF, which is wear he will end up being drafted.You are most likely correct in saying Barber won't average 4.8 yards per carry. He did do that exact same thing the year before but with the increased load, that usually will lower your ypc some.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

This should be an easy vote. Not only is Barber in a better situation, he is most likely the better talent and far more proven. Oh as well as younger.

Unbelievable anyone would think that...

Disagree -- not unbelievable at all. We've had a lot more exposure to see what MBIII can do compared to what Turner can do.

Exactly, we're not saying Barber is going to be any better than what he's done so far, except maybe do a little more if he gets the ball more. What we're saying is people act like Turner is God's gift to running backs and it's been like that for 2 to 3 years now.I'm neither a fan or hater of Turner, I'm just finally glad we'll see what he gets to do. I just don't want excuses if he doesn't do as well as everyone thought.

From the talk he gets, he should easily be a 1300 and 12 TD guy.

 

[Otis]

There's been a study on this -- take a look at some of Chase's recent threads, I believe he references it. Ultimately you can't draw the conclusion that a backup should have a higher YPC. In fact, I think the data suggested that more carries in a game tended to result in HIGHER YPC.

Correlation doesn't imply causation, though. I think it's more likely that a high YPC causes more carries than it is that more carries cause a high YPC. Teams keep doing whatever is working.

I don't disagree, but I also think there's no data that supports the alternate conclusion.

 

[Otis]

I was going to say...you don't usually make proclamations that are that far off base

Thanks, I think...FYI, to illustrate how far off the chart the Barber hype is right now, in the thread which I was thinking of, someone said that Barber was a top-5 dynasty back, and better than Joseph Addai in a dynasty league.

I don't see Barber being much more valuable than he was this year. He runs so hard that he simply can't get the ball that much IMO. He also has almost no breakaway ability and he will only get into the top 10 if he stays healthy and others are injured. I see him finishing in that 7-12 range if he stays healthy.

He finished as #7 this year, in a RBBC with Julius Jones. So you're assuming that one or more of the following occur in order for him to stay at 7, or even drop a bit:1 - His role in the offense stays the same or decreases next year

2 - The Dallas offense won't be as productive

3 - Barber gets injured

Unless he gets injured or the Cowboys bring in a big-time back to compete with him, I just don't see how he doesn't better his stats from last season.

Barber's 198 FP last year would have ranked 10th in '06, 11th in '05, 13th in '04, 13th in '03 and 18th in '02. On average, 198 FP is a bit below RB12. But last year, lots of RBs got hurt or had odd down years. I'm not sure I'd bank on that happening again.

This agrument really holds no water considering the fact that of the top 10 RBs last year, despite injuries or missed games or whatever else you want to base stats on, Barber was SIGNIFICANTLY lower than all of them in total touches. Barber is the ONLY top 10 RB from last year that did so while amassing less than 250 touches. Barber recorded only 248 touches. The next lowest was Peterson at 257. After that, no other top 10 RB was under 300 total touches. Do you really expect that a healthy Barber will touch the ball LESS in 2008?

There was no argument presented. Barber's numbers last year would have been right around RB13 in most of the last five years. I don't know why or how you would choose to disagree with that.If you think Barber will improve on last year's FP total, that's fine. That's also a different claim.

I don't think jurb gets itit = info

 

[Otis]

This should be an easy vote. Not only is Barber in a better situation, he is most likely the better talent and far more proven. Oh as well as younger.

Statements like that are what make a mess in these debates. What in the heck are you basing that on??Your other statements make sense, other than the "younger" thing, which really has no bearing here since Turner has got near zero mileage on him.

Mostly likely meaning we don't really have a lot to evaluate Turner on. From what I've seen however, I would say that Barber is more talented. It is far from a certainty though.What is so difficult to understand about that. Sorry, but I'm not about to throw out the absolute statements many others seem to with such little information.

What's difficult to understand is that there are zero facts supporting your OPINION there that one back is more talented than the other. ("most likely the better talent"????????)

 

[Otis]

It really is amazing how blind you guys are being to the point. The point is that of all the RBs you are talking about loosing these potential opportunities, Barber is the one who is most likely to see the greatest increase in 2008.

Oh ok. So Barber clearly has more potential for increase than the guy who went from a total backup role to a featured role overnight. Obviously you guys are blind to the point here.Seriously, could you make less sense?

 

[SayWhat?]

It really is amazing how blind you guys are being to the point. The point is that of all the RBs you are talking about loosing these potential opportunities, Barber is the one who is most likely to see the greatest increase in 2008.

Oh ok. So Barber clearly has more potential for increase than the guy who went from a total backup role to a featured role overnight. Obviously you guys are blind to the point here.Seriously, could you make less sense?

I think I get his point. He's saying that Barber finished as the 7th best running back last year in a part time role. Barring injury it appears as though he's in line for more touches this year, hence a very real possibility that he improves on last year's numbers. Sure, Turner now has a full-time gig and will have increased opportunity as well, but on a crappy Atlanta team is it realistic to think that he'll outperform Barber? Doubtful. That's the point. Talent = very similar

Situation = Barber >> Turner

 

[switz]

It really is amazing how blind you guys are being to the point. The point is that of all the RBs you are talking about loosing these potential opportunities, Barber is the one who is most likely to see the greatest increase in 2008.

Oh ok. So Barber clearly has more potential for increase than the guy who went from a total backup role to a featured role overnight. Obviously you guys are blind to the point here.Seriously, could you make less sense?

I think I get his point. He's saying that Barber finished as the 7th best running back last year in a part time role. Barring injury it appears as though he's in line for more touches this year, hence a very real possibility that he improves on last year's numbers. Sure, Turner now has a full-time gig and will have increased opportunity as well, but on a crappy Atlanta team is it realistic to think that he'll outperform Barber? Doubtful. That's the point. Talent = very similar

Situation = Barber >> Turner

Hypothetically... who is the greatest threat to steal time from an RB???1. McFadden

2. Felix Jones

3. Jerious Norwood

Barber is likely going to be splitting time with #1 or #2

Turner is likely going to be splitting time with #3

Another hypothetical - which RB is likely to see more carries?

1. One on a team with an excellent set of WRs and a great QB?

2. One built on a power running game, with a game manager QB and pedestrian WRs?

I would wager #2.

With that in mind, wouldn't it seem that Turner will likely see MORE opportunity than Barber?

 

[switz]

All I've ever heard are excuses to why he isn't a superstar yet. The minute LT struggles, all you hear are talks about getting this guy in there, he can do it. The guy's been IMO one of the most overrated RB's in each of the last 2 years, going in drafts WAY to early.

Wait - "get this guy in there, he can do it" is an excuse? People wanting an RB to be given a feature role is an excuse? :rofl:

Very simply, he's been overrated and overhyped the past few seasons. If anyone has drafted Turner in any of there leagues, there is very little success they can talk about and if they won a championship, it was because they overcame the Turner draft pick, not because of it. That's the facts, that's the truth.

Huh??? I don't think anyone drafted Turner early, except perhaps in a dynasty building for the future. And now that will pay off.

If you've seen enough of him to automatically say that he's better than Barber, that's fine. I'll watch and see as I'm not buying Turner as a RB1 this year in FF, which is wear he will end up being drafted.

But this is the first year he SHOULD be drafted as a #1 RB. I guess I'm not understanding you... Basically, in the past when he was an NFL backup, a handcuff really... you thought he should be drafted early. But now that he's an NFL starter, you don't think he should be drafted early

You are most likely correct in saying Barber won't average 4.8 yards per carry. He did do that exact same thing the year before but with the increased load, that usually will lower your ypc some.

I really don't see Barber's load increasing much, maybe 4 more carries a game. He was basically the primary ball carrier for most of last year already. The Cowboys are expected to draft an RB, possibly even moving up for one in the first round. And wasn't his 4.8 the highest of his career? (note, I checked, same as '06)

 

[Liquid Tension]

I was going to say...you don't usually make proclamations that are that far off base

Thanks, I think...FYI, to illustrate how far off the chart the Barber hype is right now, in the thread which I was thinking of, someone said that Barber was a top-5 dynasty back, and better than Joseph Addai in a dynasty league.

I don't see Barber being much more valuable than he was this year. He runs so hard that he simply can't get the ball that much IMO. He also has almost no breakaway ability and he will only get into the top 10 if he stays healthy and others are injured. I see him finishing in that 7-12 range if he stays healthy.

He finished as #7 this year, in a RBBC with Julius Jones. So you're assuming that one or more of the following occur in order for him to stay at 7, or even drop a bit:1 - His role in the offense stays the same or decreases next year

2 - The Dallas offense won't be as productive

3 - Barber gets injured

Unless he gets injured or the Cowboys bring in a big-time back to compete with him, I just don't see how he doesn't better his stats from last season.

Ahh, but you miscalculate that there weren't as many of the other RB's who could have done better. The same amount of points will net a lower ranking IMO for Barber. He will have to do better to be ranked 7th.

 

[SayWhat?]

It really is amazing how blind you guys are being to the point. The point is that of all the RBs you are talking about loosing these potential opportunities, Barber is the one who is most likely to see the greatest increase in 2008.

Oh ok. So Barber clearly has more potential for increase than the guy who went from a total backup role to a featured role overnight. Obviously you guys are blind to the point here.Seriously, could you make less sense?

I think I get his point. He's saying that Barber finished as the 7th best running back last year in a part time role. Barring injury it appears as though he's in line for more touches this year, hence a very real possibility that he improves on last year's numbers. Sure, Turner now has a full-time gig and will have increased opportunity as well, but on a crappy Atlanta team is it realistic to think that he'll outperform Barber? Doubtful. That's the point. Talent = very similar

Situation = Barber >> Turner

Hypothetically... who is the greatest threat to steal time from an RB???1. McFadden

2. Felix Jones

3. Jerious Norwood

Barber is likely going to be splitting time with #1 or #2

Turner is likely going to be splitting time with #3

Another hypothetical - which RB is likely to see more carries?

1. One on a team with an excellent set of WRs and a great QB?

2. One built on a power running game, with a game manager QB and pedestrian WRs?

I would wager #2.

With that in mind, wouldn't it seem that Turner will likely see MORE opportunity than Barber?

Hypothetically, there's a greater chance than not that Dallas doesn't end up with either McFadden or Felix Jones. I won't necessarily disagree with your assessment of which back may end up with more work, although I think your logic is somewhat flawed. You're reasoning that the back in a far less potent offense that will struggle to move the ball has a greater chance to outproduce one that on a team with one of the more potent offenses in the league simply because the weapons around him suck? Lets just say that I don't agree with your analysis and call it a wrap on this one.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I was going to say...you don't usually make proclamations that are that far off base

Thanks, I think...FYI, to illustrate how far off the chart the Barber hype is right now, in the thread which I was thinking of, someone said that Barber was a top-5 dynasty back, and better than Joseph Addai in a dynasty league.

I don't see Barber being much more valuable than he was this year. He runs so hard that he simply can't get the ball that much IMO. He also has almost no breakaway ability and he will only get into the top 10 if he stays healthy and others are injured. I see him finishing in that 7-12 range if he stays healthy.

He finished as #7 this year, in a RBBC with Julius Jones. So you're assuming that one or more of the following occur in order for him to stay at 7, or even drop a bit:1 - His role in the offense stays the same or decreases next year

2 - The Dallas offense won't be as productive

3 - Barber gets injured

Unless he gets injured or the Cowboys bring in a big-time back to compete with him, I just don't see how he doesn't better his stats from last season.

Barber's 198 FP last year would have ranked 10th in '06, 11th in '05, 13th in '04, 13th in '03 and 18th in '02. On average, 198 FP is a bit below RB12. But last year, lots of RBs got hurt or had odd down years. I'm not sure I'd bank on that happening again.

This agrument really holds no water considering the fact that of the top 10 RBs last year, despite injuries or missed games or whatever else you want to base stats on, Barber was SIGNIFICANTLY lower than all of them in total touches. Barber is the ONLY top 10 RB from last year that did so while amassing less than 250 touches. Barber recorded only 248 touches. The next lowest was Peterson at 257. After that, no other top 10 RB was under 300 total touches. Do you really expect that a healthy Barber will touch the ball LESS in 2008?

Jurb, you have said you think Turner is overrated. After watching his videos and the speed, power and vision combo he has I am not sure what overrated is? Now, he has yet to carry the ball so many times and getting dinged up and playing at the same high level is what separates the greats. Do I think turner is great, well no, that would be silly at this point so maybe people who putting him in Canton then maybe he is overrated... But I see no reason why he can't be a slightly rich mans version of Lamont Jordan. I don't see how anyone doesn't see that in Turner? When Lamont was healthy he was an effective RB and I don't see why Turner shouldn't be a little better than that?

 

[Liquid Tension]

This should be an easy vote. Not only is Barber in a better situation, he is most likely the better talent and far more proven. Oh as well as younger.

Unbelievable anyone would think that...

You would say that.

Funny, NFL.com also ranked Barber as the best RB in the FA class ahead of Turner. Pretty unbelievable that you can so Turner is better with such certainty. I mean he has proven so much in the NFL....

I am assuming you are correct about NFL.com raking Barber ahead of Turner, but you have to admit that opinion is in the minority? Now being in the minority does not mean it is wrong, but on a neutral team I would take Turner (one of the few times I am in the majority I guess).I like Barber and think he is a very good back to have on a team, but I don't think he will be as effective getting 25 carries and the lack of breakaway ability hampers him a little in my book. Parcells and Phillips both felt the same way as barber never really grabbed the starting role. I think of Barber a little like Brandon Jacobs in that they are very helpful for the team and the offensive attack, but if they were the only RB weapon they would be less effective.

 

[Jason Wood]

It really is amazing how blind you guys are being to the point. The point is that of all the RBs you are talking about loosing these potential opportunities, Barber is the one who is most likely to see the greatest increase in 2008.

Oh ok. So Barber clearly has more potential for increase than the guy who went from a total backup role to a featured role overnight. Obviously you guys are blind to the point here.Seriously, could you make less sense?

I think I get his point. He's saying that Barber finished as the 7th best running back last year in a part time role. Barring injury it appears as though he's in line for more touches this year, hence a very real possibility that he improves on last year's numbers. Sure, Turner now has a full-time gig and will have increased opportunity as well, but on a crappy Atlanta team is it realistic to think that he'll outperform Barber? Doubtful. That's the point. Talent = very similar

Situation = Barber >> Turner

Hypothetically... who is the greatest threat to steal time from an RB???1. McFadden

2. Felix Jones

3. Jerious Norwood

Barber is likely going to be splitting time with #1 or #2

Turner is likely going to be splitting time with #3

Another hypothetical - which RB is likely to see more carries?

1. One on a team with an excellent set of WRs and a great QB?

2. One built on a power running game, with a game manager QB and pedestrian WRs?

I would wager #2.

With that in mind, wouldn't it seem that Turner will likely see MORE opportunity than Barber?

Did I miss the part where Jerious Norwood averaged SIX YARDS A CARRY last year on more than 100 carries? Running behind an offensive line that no one would argue was as good as San Diego's? Seems to me like Norwood and Turner are a potentially dynamite 1-2 punch. And I can't see why an as yet-to-be-drafted rookie would pose a bigger threat to Barber's touches than Norwood does to Turner

 

[Righetti]

What's difficult to understand is that there are zero facts supporting your OPINION there that one back is more talented than the other. ("most likely the better talent"????????)

to be fair aren't you the same guy who earlier in this thread implied that Turner was the more talented back.

Turner is the better back, but Barber is in a much better situation.

This is probably right. However, the rule in dynasty has always seemed to be pick the guy with the most talent because the cream will eventually rise to the top. I love both of these guys, but I'm a huge Turner believer.

and you were very vocal about your opinion in the difference in talent levels in August also.from the MB3 vs MTB thread from August

For the record, I think this is Turner pretty easily. I think MBIII is a talented back, but I think Turner is just a class above.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

All I've ever heard are excuses to why he isn't a superstar yet. The minute LT struggles, all you hear are talks about getting this guy in there, he can do it. The guy's been IMO one of the most overrated RB's in each of the last 2 years, going in drafts WAY to early.

Wait - "get this guy in there, he can do it" is an excuse? People wanting an RB to be given a feature role is an excuse? :rofl:

Very simply, he's been overrated and overhyped the past few seasons. If anyone has drafted Turner in any of there leagues, there is very little success they can talk about and if they won a championship, it was because they overcame the Turner draft pick, not because of it. That's the facts, that's the truth.

Huh??? I don't think anyone drafted Turner early, except perhaps in a dynasty building for the future. And now that will pay off.

If you've seen enough of him to automatically say that he's better than Barber, that's fine. I'll watch and see as I'm not buying Turner as a RB1 this year in FF, which is wear he will end up being drafted.

But this is the first year he SHOULD be drafted as a #1 RB. I guess I'm not understanding you... Basically, in the past when he was an NFL backup, a handcuff really... you thought he should be drafted early. But now that he's an NFL starter, you don't think he should be drafted early

You are most likely correct in saying Barber won't average 4.8 yards per carry. He did do that exact same thing the year before but with the increased load, that usually will lower your ypc some.

I really don't see Barber's load increasing much, maybe 4 more carries a game. He was basically the primary ball carrier for most of last year already. The Cowboys are expected to draft an RB, possibly even moving up for one in the first round. And wasn't his 4.8 the highest of his career? (note, I checked, same as '06)

The excuses of why he hasn't done well is because he's always been behind Lt2. That if it wasn't for Lt2 being so good, this guy would be tearing it up. Now, those same people that have been shouting about how good this guy is, they get the chance to beat their chest.........oh, he's playing in Atlanta. It's not the greatest opportunity. But if it was a good place, he's be good, he really would be. Those kind of excuses.I was in many leagues last year and saw Turner go in rounds 6-9. That is WAY to early, way to early. You can still get top notch starting WR's and TE's in those positions compared to a guy you can never start and just hope the best RB in the league gets injured so he can play.I've never drafted Turner, probably won't this year. Maybe he's been the 2nd best back in the league all this time, we'll see.

 

[Otis]

What's difficult to understand is that there are zero facts supporting your OPINION there that one back is more talented than the other. ("most likely the better talent"????????)

aren't you the same guy who earlier in this thread implied that Turner was the more talented back.

Turner is the better back, but Barber is in a much better situation.

This is probably right. However, the rule in dynasty has always seemed to be pick the guy with the most talent because the cream will eventually rise to the top. I love both of these guys, but I'm a huge Turner believer.

I'm not sure what was "implied," all I said was that I am a Turner believer. That's a world away from stating one guy is "most likely the better talent" as though it's a proven fact.

 

[Otis]

from the MB3 vs MTB thread from August

For the record, I think this is Turner pretty easily. I think MBIII is a talented back, but I think Turner is just a class above.

Like I said...

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

Reading all these quotes and opinions on this topic makes my head hurt. This will only be settled on the field. You have your Turner supporters and if you've been in his corner all along, all I can say is hes' finally getting his shot to be a starting back. Kudos to you if he turns out to be the next superstar. I haven't been in that corner all along and will just tip my hat in saying good job in recognizing amazing talent when I didn't.

Turner could move up my draft board just like rookies will as I see how they play. Lucky for me I don't have to draft for awhile and have more time to evaluate.

The thing about Barber and Turner, they're not available in dynasty leagues unless you're starting a bran new league and it's basically in a redraft situation with dynasty implications for the future.

 

[Otis]

For those making excuses about Turner's situation not be the best possible place for him, I have a couple responses:

1. An aging Warrick Dunn has had some tremendous seasons there recently; I don't think it's as bad as people are assuming;

2. Don't complain about the situation; a true talent will still produce. Frank Gore joined a pretty awful Niners team and put up a tremendous season two years ago (granted the offense and offensive line were much improved, but nobody would have at the time considered the Niners to be a great spot for a fantasy RB to produce). If Turner is as good as some people think he is, he will produce in ATL.

 

[Liquid Tension]

For those making excuses about Turner's situation not be the best possible place for him, I have a couple responses:1. An aging Warrick Dunn has had some tremendous seasons there recently; I don't think it's as bad as people are assuming;2. Don't complain about the situation; a true talent will still produce. Frank Gore joined a pretty awful Niners team and put up a tremendous season two years ago (granted the offense and offensive line were much improved, but nobody would have at the time considered the Niners to be a great spot for a fantasy RB to produce). If Turner is as good as some people think he is, he will produce in ATL.

Otis, you are right Turner should produce. But the point is that the situation is not as good as Dallas. When you have throwing options it opens up the running game. If the Ol is terrible in Atlanta then it is hard to produce a lot. I would expect Turner to produce, but it is not like he is behind the Minnesota line.

 

[JKL]

Another hypothetical - which RB is likely to see more carries?1. One on a team with an excellent set of WRs and a great QB?2. One built on a power running game, with a game manager QB and pedestrian WRs?I would wager #2.With that in mind, wouldn't it seem that Turner will likely see MORE opportunity than Barber?

I would say the opposite. The back playing for the team that will create the most first downs, and play with the lead late in more games, will get more opportunities. Situation #2 would only be correct if that quarterback was efficient at picking up 3rd downs, even if they didn't throw for a ton of yards.

 

[Otis]

Otis, you are right Turner should produce. But the point is that the situation is not as good as Dallas. When you have throwing options it opens up the running game. If the Ol is terrible in Atlanta then it is hard to produce a lot. I would expect Turner to produce, but it is not like he is behind the Minnesota line.

I'm not comparing their situations at all. I'm just saying that if Turner is that good, he will produce. Is he in a better situation than Barber? Probably not. Will Barber put up better numbers? Very possibly.

 

[Moe Green]

It really is amazing how blind you guys are being to the point. The point is that of all the RBs you are talking about loosing these potential opportunities, Barber is the one who is most likely to see the greatest increase in 2008.

Oh ok. So Barber clearly has more potential for increase than the guy who went from a total backup role to a featured role overnight. Obviously you guys are blind to the point here.Seriously, could you make less sense?

I think I get his point. He's saying that Barber finished as the 7th best running back last year in a part time role. Barring injury it appears as though he's in line for more touches this year, hence a very real possibility that he improves on last year's numbers. Sure, Turner now has a full-time gig and will have increased opportunity as well, but on a crappy Atlanta team is it realistic to think that he'll outperform Barber? Doubtful. That's the point. Talent = very similar

Situation = Barber >> Turner

Hypothetically... who is the greatest threat to steal time from an RB???1. McFadden

2. Felix Jones

3. Jerious Norwood

Barber is likely going to be splitting time with #1 or #2

Turner is likely going to be splitting time with #3

Another hypothetical - which RB is likely to see more carries?

1. One on a team with an excellent set of WRs and a great QB?

2. One built on a power running game, with a game manager QB and pedestrian WRs?

I would wager #2.

With that in mind, wouldn't it seem that Turner will likely see MORE opportunity than Barber?

Did I miss the part where Jerious Norwood averaged SIX YARDS A CARRY last year on more than 100 carries? Running behind an offensive line that no one would argue was as good as San Diego's? Seems to me like Norwood and Turner are a potentially dynamite 1-2 punch. And I can't see why an as yet-to-be-drafted rookie would pose a bigger threat to Barber's touches than Norwood does to Turner

Norwood will be where the real value lies next season in Fantasy Football as a borderline RB2/3, instead of Michael Turner as an RB1.

 

[Otis]

Does someone have quick access to where Michael Turner's contract fits in with typical starting RB contracts? I haven't looked at the numbers in a while, but the amount that ATL was willing to pay him may be a good indicator of how much he factors into their plans -- i.e., if they paid a ton, it sounds like they expect him to be the focal point of the offense; if they paid him less than your average starting back, maybe they just haven't sorted it out, and perhaps Norwood is a greater threat.